Musings on Language #2

[Dogmantra]

It's just montage, y'see.

It's like, someone's doing the laundry. They're talking to someone.
"So, how's the wife?" Charlie flipped the switch to a hot cycle, "She still doing fine?"
"Yeah, she's out with her friends every night now though." Fred poured in the detergent.


They're not doing the laundry in such a way as to form words, they're talking and doing it at the same time. In the same way, they're not laughing in Morse Code or anything, they are simply laughing and talking at the same time, you just omit the "said" because you have quotation marks for that. It's pretty much the definitive way to do conversations in conventional modern writing. Of course you can do it your own way, 's not wrong.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I'm afraid in this case, you're wrong, Succubus. The word structure there does not necessarily refer to how the sentence was actually said. More often than not, it refers to actions done concurrently, or in between the bits said.

So, you laughing example, he could be talking and breaking up his talking with small bits of laughter. Also, take the below example?


"You're really going to do that?" he said

"You're really going to do that?" he said, laughing

"You're really going to do that?" he laughed


The first example Is much more serious than the other two, with completely different overtones. The latter two are much more light-hearted in tone. Of those, the former is much clumsier. The most common, concise, and accepted one would be the latter.
In addition, "he said, laughing", to me at least, is a little more... derisive? It seems like he's laughing AT the person who he's talking too. "he laughed", on the other hand, is that much more friendly and light-hearted. Or at least, SEEMINGLY so. You could use it for great affect in an antagonist character, by showing him as a faux-ami.

[Greenish]

Of course, by comparison with English, any language will look highly structured.

What do you mean?

"I'll do it right now."

This phrase has somehow, unbelievably, come to mean 'I'll do it soon', or 'I'll do it in a moment from now'. How? Why? It is so absurd that it drives me up the wall every time I hear it said.

You think that's bad? How about people saying "*I could care less" when they mean the exact opposite?

[The Succubus]

Yes, I do appreciate that it can be an immediate action following a spoken phrase but in the context of the lesson, it was purely used in a descriptive fashion.

Going back to what someone said earlier about over-using the word "said" in conversation, the teacher was looking for alternatives, such as:

"XYZ" he moaned.
"XYZ" she whined.
"XYZ" she growled.
"XYZ" he shouted.

All of the above are descriptive alternatives to using the word "said". The point clumsily trying to make is that "grinned" is not an appropriate descriptor when dealing with speech.

Easier way to resolve this - can anyone find me a spoken example of someone saying something in the manner of "grinning"?

[Dogmantra]

Best example I can think of for when "he grinned" would be appropriate is David Tennant's Doctor. Can't find any clips on Youtube right now, but you'd know it when you see it 'cause his mouth takes up half the screen and his voice goes all high.

Also I'd argue that "grinned" is more appropriate than any of those other descriptors, since it's actually an action and the others are just different ways of saying "said". In most cases it should be obvious from what's happening how they're saying it, and using a word that's not "said" or an action reminds the reader that they're reading a story.

[Asta Kask]

You think that's bad? How about people saying "*I could care less" when they mean the exact opposite?

You know what I dislike? People who are so tin-eared that they don't that I could care less is sarcasm, and hence perfectly grammatical.

[Greenish]

You know what I dislike? People who are so tin-eared that they don't that I could care less is sarcasm, and hence perfectly grammatical.

I'm not objecting on the grounds of grammar. It just means the opposite of what it's user intended it to mean.

Sarcasm nothing, it's barbaric vandalism!

[Asta Kask]

I'm not objecting on the grounds of grammar. It just means the opposite of what it's user intended it to mean.

Sarcasm nothing, it's barbaric vandalism!

No it does not, because it is sarcasm.

[dehro]

what baffles me are websights with bearnaked ladies

[SaintRidley]

On the said synonyms. Try to avoid them. Most of the time it's perfectly obvious from the words in the quotation marks how the words are being said, which just makes the synonyms redundant. Plus, readers naturally glide over said.

Same problem with adverbs, really. They're often redundant, so chop them off in most cases and you're fine.

what baffles me are websights with bearnaked ladies

Sounds like you might enjoy the baffling power of the eggcorn database.

[Greenish]

No it does not, because it is sarcasm.

If it was done on purpose, maybe. Mostly, though, it seems to be out of sheer ignorance, by people who don't know any better.

[The Succubus]

*picks up bucket of icy water*

*dumps on Asta and Greenish*

If someone is using it in a non-sarcastic tone of voice, it is bad grammer and you can give them a clip round the ear for it. If they are using it in a sarcastic tone of voice, they are being snarky and you can give them a clip round the ear for that instead.

It's win-win.

[Dogmantra]

If it was done on purpose, maybe. Mostly, though, it seems to be out of sheer ignorance, by people who don't know any better.

I was under the impression that it's something of an eggcorn.

I'd imagine either someone said "could care less" sarcastically (so totally legitimate use), or "couldn't care less" in a certain accent (some accents sometimes condense the ends of couldn't, wouldn't and shouldn't so they can be misheard as could, would and should) and then the person they used it to went on to use it either straight or as they misheard it, or both ways happened. Then people heard it and it spread from there.

I'd say that, while maybe a little bothersome, it's a perfectly legitimate idiom even when said unsarcastically because it's gained such widespread use to mean "I don't care". It's like... Jeggings. Irksome word, legitimate meaning because people understand what you mean when you say it.

[The Succubus]

I'd say that, while maybe a little bothersome, it's a perfectly legitimate idiom even when said unsarcastically because it's gained such widespread use to mean "I don't care". It's like... Jeggings. Irksome word, legitimate meaning because people understand what you mean when you say it.

Ewww. I really hate Franken-words like that.

[Greenish]

It's like... Jeggings. Irksome word, legitimate meaning because people understand what you mean when you say it.

I had to look up jeggings, but now that I know what they are, the name makes perfect sense, and is descriptive enough that in context, you'd understand what sort of article of clothing it is.

So, yeah, I'm cool with "jeggings".

[John Cribati]

Ewww. I really hate Franken-words like that.

I know right? I mean, i'd totally prefer to say things like "pack I wear on my back" or "man who tells people what the weather is" or "board that we skate with."

[The Succubus]

I know right? I mean, i'd totally prefer to say things like "pack I wear on my back" or "man who tells people what the weather is" or "board that we skate with."

Yay! Someone who agrees with me!

I know, I know, all part of an evolving language - it just grates me a little that people come up with new buzzwords like that but nobody bothers to tell me what they mean. It's like there's a new dictionary all the cool kids are using but I don't get to read it because I'm not cool.

[Greenish]

I know, I know, all part of an evolving language - it just grates me a little that people come up with new buzzwords like that but nobody bothers to tell me what they mean. It's like there's a new dictionary all the cool kids are using but I don't get to read it because I'm not cool.

Try google or urban dictionary. Or maybe just asking the people what the words they're using mean.

I'm all for new phenomena getting new names, and the ones that make sense are the best. Like "jeggings" (from "jeans" plus "leggings"), or, to use some Finnish examples, "puhelin" ("a phone", literally, "a tool for talking casually") or "kännykkä" ("a cellphone", literally, "something held on the palm of the hand"). A language that's not constantly coining new words is a dead language.

[Themrys]

I'd say that, while maybe a little bothersome, it's a perfectly legitimate idiom even when said unsarcastically because it's gained such widespread use to mean "I don't care". It's like... Jeggings. Irksome word, legitimate meaning because people understand what you mean when you say it.

Actually, I didn't know "I could care less" as an idiom. I only know "I couldn't care less". (I'm from Germany, but if it was that common, I'd have read it somewhere)
And it is not like "Jeggins". "Jeggins" replaces "a mix between jeans and leggins" which is a long sentence and therefore needs to be replaced by something shorter.

I only approve of new words if they are necessary. I do not approve of the idea that, once enough people use a word or figure of speech or whatever incorrectly, that usage becomes correct. (Of course I know I can do nothing against that. Still.)


Concerning the usage of "said" in writing...It's interesting that this seems to be commonly accepted in English language, while, in Germany, it is considered bad style to use "said" more than once a page or so. There are lots of other words for "said + adverb" and German teachers want you to use them. Like, for example "shouted" instead of "said loudly". (The German equivalent of "grinned" is used as synonym for "said" by some fanfic writers, but many people don't approve. I am one of them.)

[Dogmantra]

Actually, I didn't know "I could care less" as an idiom. I only know "I couldn't care less". (I'm from Germany, but if it was that common, I'd have read it somewhere)

I do believe it's an almost exclusively American thing. I think it's highly likely it was an accident that it's coined as an idiom, but language is defined by use and to deny that "I could care less" is, I think, rather futile. It's not something you'd use in formal writing though. Never heard anyone English use it except in a discussion of the term.

Concerning the usage of "said" in writing...It's interesting that this seems to be commonly accepted in English language, while, in Germany, it is considered bad style to use "said" more than once a page or so. There are lots of other words for "said + adverb" and German teachers want you to use them. Like, for example "shouted" instead of "said loudly". (The German equivalent of "grinned" is used as synonym for "said" by some fanfic writers, but many people don't approve. I am one of them.)

English teachers encourage their students to use lots of synonyms for "said" in England, and probably in other English speaking schools too, but the reason there is that the emphasis is on developing a larger vocabulary rather than learning how to write professional standard stories, which is how it should be if the class is advertised as an English class, you're learning about the language, which involves learning lots of words, you're not learning how to use one specific application of the language. The emphasis in a story isn't on showing off one's knowledge of the language, more about engaging the reader and telling a good story (even for arty stories, it's more about getting a message across or showing off one's use of the language), and that's why there's a stigma against anything that's not an action, said, or asked.

[ForzaFiori]

Ewww. I really hate Franken-words like that.

Words like that have been a staple of English since... well, since before it was the current English. Kennings, usually refering to Old English words, are just there version of compound words (like weatherman, skateboard, backpack, etc). What else are you supposed to do? I mean, what would you call a mixture of leggings and jeans, because "a cross between leggings and jeans" is way to long.

Best example I can think of for when "he grinned" would be appropriate is David Tennant's Doctor. Can't find any clips on Youtube right now, but you'd know it when you see it 'cause his mouth takes up half the screen and his voice goes all high.

Also I'd argue that "grinned" is more appropriate than any of those other descriptors, since it's actually an action and the others are just different ways of saying "said". In most cases it should be obvious from what's happening how they're saying it, and using a word that's not "said" or an action reminds the reader that they're reading a story.

This is an excellent example. The reason it works is because by grinning, it actually does change the inflection and intonation of the words. It's also why in chorus classes, your told not to smile. It changes the way the word sounds. Therefore, grinning while speaking makes the words sound different, and that's why it's used as a synonym for "said".

[Ravens_cry]

It's also why, when doing telemarketing, it's good to smile when you talk, even if you have to force it. It changes the tone of your voice in a way that people can pick up on, even if only subconsciously.
It's why Elton John's 'Your Song' is one of my favourites', there is a definite smile in a his voice, especially in the last line, you can hear his love for the person he wrote that song for.

[noparlpf]

I'm frequently called a "grammar Nazi". I'm told I have a "frighteningly fascist" view of the evolution of language. (The latter because I was complaining about how "discrimination" has evolved to mean the opposite of what it means.)
I'll admit that I'm something of a stickler for rules. I'll also admit that I tend to believe that when it comes to language what was there first is right and that changes from that are wrong. (Of course, updating those rules to accommodate new concepts is necessary.) I think etymology is neat, but I know if I studied it I'd end up speaking incredibly archaically, rendering me (even more) incomprehensible.
So I stick to correcting peoples' more egregious grammatical errors, but using silly modern speech, like, all the time.
I happen to like the subjunctive, so the hypothetical "were" is one of my favorites. One pet peeve is the misuse of "me" and "I", as in, "He is better at math than me", when it should be, "...than I (am)".
I also mix and match Oxford commas with non-Oxford commas, depending on my mood, which may vary midway through a sentence. I also frequently switch from US English to UK English midway through a sentence; in Bio earlier I wrote "may polymerize or depolymerise spontaneously" in my notes.

[Dogmantra]

Speaking of Oxford Commas, I know that it includes whether or not you put a comma before the and at the end of a list (eggs, milk, and bread) or whatever, but does it also include commas before other ands (and other buts)?

If so, the Oxford Comma is the single greatest linguistic invention since the Interrobang
(I am well aware the Oxford Comma almost certainly came first)

[Greenish]

All I know about Oxford comma I've learned from webcomics.

Spoiler

Show

[NNescio]

Yes, I do appreciate that it can be an immediate action following a spoken phrase but in the context of the lesson, it was purely used in a descriptive fashion.

Going back to what someone said earlier about over-using the word "said" in conversation, the teacher was looking for alternatives, such as:

"XYZ" he moaned.
"XYZ" she whined.
"XYZ" she growled.
"XYZ" he shouted.

All of the above are descriptive alternatives to using the word "said". The point clumsily trying to make is that "grinned" is not an appropriate descriptor when dealing with speech.

Easier way to resolve this - can anyone find me a spoken example of someone saying something in the manner of "grinning"?

"Chuckled", "chortled", " "snickered/sniggered", and their various synonyms, with each implying a different degree of friendliness and/or derision. The second one is also notable for being a 'frankenword' coined by Lewis Carroll.

[Xuc Xac]

I know right? I mean, i'd totally prefer to say things like "pack I wear on my back" or "man who tells people what the weather is" or "board that we skate with."

You would prefer to carry your things in a bapack and go out to ride your skoard after hearing the weaman say it's going to be a sunny day? Because those are portmanteau words like "jeggings". "Backpack", "skateboard", and "weatherman" are not the same thing.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

See, in my opinion, no matter how stupid something might be, if enough people say it, it's a word, and thus part of the language. No matter how much I might not LIKE the word, that doesn't change the fact that it is a word in the English language.

[Yora]

It depends on how you approach the subject of language. As a system of patterns and rules, or as a social phenomenon. While there is a certain value in creating a set of standard vocabulary, ortography, and gramar, for expample to teach the language to other people, it does, and have to, ignore the evolving aspect of language as a cultural product.
Patterns in language, that arise fast often also disappear fast as well, and it would be nonsense to try updating a written set of rules all the time. Once you updated it, it's already outdated. Therefore it makes a lot more sense to limit yourself to the patterns that turn out to endure for a very long time. But you can identify these only after they have already been used for a ling time and have become so common that it's unlukely to disappear again soon.

I do believe it's an almost exclusively American thing. I think it's highly likely it was an accident that it's coined as an idiom, but language is defined by use and to deny that "I could care less" is, I think, rather futile. It's not something you'd use in formal writing though. Never heard anyone English use it except in a discussion of the term.

It is part of the language, no doubt about that. But it makes you look stupid, so you still shouldn't say it.

Which happens to open up a whole new issue: "Speaking is acting" as one of my professors often said. By the choice of your words, you are presenting your personalty to the outside world, just like your choice of clothing, food, cars, and whatever. You display allegiance to a certain group of people while distancing yourself from others. Which I think means that you can very well criticize bad language. But not so much as to deny the speech patterns used by another person as invalid, but rather as a way of showing disapproval about the position the person is taking by chosing certain words and patterns.

[Kalmageddon]

English teachers encourage their students to use lots of synonyms for "said" in England, and probably in other English speaking schools too, but the reason there is that the emphasis is on developing a larger vocabulary rather than learning how to write professional standard stories, which is how it should be if the class is advertised as an English class, you're learning about the language, which involves learning lots of words, you're not learning how to use one specific application of the language. The emphasis in a story isn't on showing off one's knowledge of the language, more about engaging the reader and telling a good story (even for arty stories, it's more about getting a message across or showing off one's use of the language), and that's why there's a stigma against anything that's not an action, said, or asked.

In other countries the repetition of a single word in the length of a few lines (how many exactly varies) can be considered a real error.
In Italian language you are not only encouraged but forced to avoid repetition of words at all costs by using synonims, it's percieved as very simplistic and clumsy to not do so.
That is, unless you want to put an emphasis on the meaning of the repeated word, but that's used mostly on words that carry a strong meaning, obviously, so the word "said" wouldn't qualify, usually.