League of Legends XXXII: Cupcakes and Kittens and Squirrels. Oh my!

[Zen Master]

Fizz's passive also allows him to ignore unit collision, Janna's Zephyr lets her ignore unit collision when it's off cooldown, and Ghost makes you ignore unit collision too.

Heh - I misread Fizz's ditto. Then his annoys me just as much. I've no quarrel with abilities that manipulate unit collision in some way. It's that something that applies to everyone suddenly doesn't.

I by no means claim that this is a major advantage for Hecarim. Could be, but I doubt it. No, it's just ... bad design. Once the framework is established, you should respect it - not because it's something sacred and immutable, but because limitations are there for a reason.

Whatever that reason might be. That's a variable.

[TechnOkami]

After a small test of Swain and his new autoattack animation.

Wohoo! Whoever made this change deserves to be paid a drink and a professional of the night.

Oh really...

Time To Bring Down The Swain Train!

[Legoshrimp]

Heh - I misread Fizz's ditto. Then his annoys me just as much. I've no quarrel with abilities that manipulate unit collision in some way. It's that something that applies to everyone suddenly doesn't.

I by no means claim that this is a major advantage for Hecarim. Could be, but I doubt it. No, it's just ... bad design. Once the framework is established, you should respect it - not because it's something sacred and immutable, but because limitations are there for a reason.

Whatever that reason might be. That's a variable.

Because we all know doing something the same way we have always done it, because that is how we we have always done it is a good reason. Unit collision isn't really what I would call an integral part of the framework of champions.

For example do you think all manaless champions are bad? Because they break from the limitations of having to use mana for the skills. I mean they have been in the game for a while, but I can't really think of any popular AoSs that have any manaless champions, or at least I don't think there where any in dota which is what league is essentially taken from.

I don't think changing things is bad design. Maybe I would say if they released a champion that had no health or something was bad, but a ghost like horseman that ignores unit collision? Seems completely reasonable in terms of game play, and in terms of champion design.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

I by no means claim that this is a major advantage for Hecarim. Could be, but I doubt it. No, it's just ... bad design. Once the framework is established, you should respect it - not because it's something sacred and immutable, but because limitations are there for a reason.

Whatever that reason might be. That's a variable.

The obvious question is: Why is unit colision there in the first place?

As far as I can guess, it's more a verisimilute factor - we don't expect champions to walk through things, so they dont'. Then again, maybe it's a hang-up from DotAs engine. Or maybe it was just easier to code and when they did collision they just put it on everything.

What I can't think of is any reason that would lead to bad things if subverted. Hence, I can really agree that subverting this particular framework is bad design.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

As far as I can guess, it's more a verisimilute factor - we don't expect champions to walk through things, so they dont'. Then again, maybe it's a hang-up from DotAs engine. Or maybe it was just easier to code and when they did collision they just put it on everything.

What I can't think of is any reason that would lead to bad things if subverted. Hence, I can really agree that subverting this particular framework is bad design.

Definitely harder to code unit collision, so that's not the issue.

I think it's both for verisimilitude and for stragety. Being able to block movement with creeps and/or your team allows you to force the enemy to take long approaches, allows you to escape through minions, and a number of other things that we just wouldn't have otherwise. I've escape jungle ganks, for example, by hitting an AoE ability like Shyvana's W and aggro-ing Golems and then running up towards mid-lane, using the Golems bodies to block my enemy's pursuit. Without minion collision, that tactic wouldn't work...and I think the game would be less interesting.

That said, a few exceptions are fun and interesting, not bad design. Having a few characters specifically able to ignore common rules just makes playing them/against them that much for interesting.

[Neoseanster]

Mannnnnn that was an annoying game. We got all but every dragon, a Baron, and won most team fights, but their jungler was a Master Yi who just split pushed all day long with Boots of Mobility. We come to stop him? Highlander+Ghostblade awayyyyyy and he never gets caught. I stole most of his buffs and ganked far more effectively, but he still ended up with over a hundred more CS for all of it he took pushing lanes.

And they had a Twisted Fate to boot.

I've gotta give them credit, though, they played it pretty smart. He had been buying Oracle's from level 6 or so, and replacing them after every death - we must've taken five off of him by the end of the game, and the rest of my team just stopped trying to ward. So then, one time, when one of us goes to stop him from split pushing and the rest of the team takes dragon? Oops, two more of his teammates pop out from the jungle behind him and they take our top inhibitor and a nexus turret before the rest can recall to help.

Still, though. It's been a long time since I got to personally witness how incredibly frustrating of a tactic it is to play against. It was blind pick, so we unfortunately weren't able to pick to counter it. The game ended up as a tie; the servers shut down for the patch before either team was able to end. We were up ten or twenty kills, but they had taken eight towers to our four. We just couldn't keep up; we take one objective, meanwhile they took two elsewhere unopposed. It's hard to have the kind of coordination necessary to counter with randoms in a normal game.

[endoperez]

I just had a first try at jungling Alistar. In a draft normal game where the jungle picker panicked and took Taric, and I took a champ I was comfortable with, who I had heard could jungle.

I've never jungled as Alistar. I only had a few jungle games under my belt, and that didn't help at all. The enemy Shyvana started by taking my side's wraiths AND red, and that didn't help either. Then she kept warding our sides' red and blue and killed me thrice at them.

Any way, other than the jungling where I utterly failed, it was kind of interesting. Any pointers for Alistar specifically? Also, are there some invading junglers I should be wary of? Who could I pick if I just want to jungle safely?

[Winthur]

I've never jungled as Alistar. I only had a few jungle games under my belt, and that didn't help at all. The enemy Shyvana started by taking my side's wraiths AND red, and that didn't help either. Then she kept warding our sides' red and blue and killed me thrice at them.

Any way, other than the jungling where I utterly failed, it was kind of interesting. Any pointers for Alistar specifically? Also, are there some invading junglers I should be wary of? Who could I pick if I just want to jungle safely?

Alistar is mostly a roamer/ganker. He isn't really suited into massive farming of creeps (even with his AoE passive and skills his clearing power falls off and he is still better as a hyperaggressive ganker) so against an aggressive counterjungler like Mundo or Shyvana you kind of have to expect that whenever you show up in a lane and deal punishment, you're going to probably lose a camp at home.

With that in mind:
1: Secure your buffs every time once they respawn. That means don't camp top lane if your red buff down south is here in 10 seconds.
2: Put wards around and ask your team for help in tracking down the invader. (Note that Shyvana is still mobile enough to escape but maybe you can save the buff)
3: Make your lanes win. If your mid lane is Cassiopeia and she just pushed the minion wave to the turret then she is free to roam. She is free to murder anyone who passes her wards in search of Sasquatch / that was a kickass in search show / with Leonard Nimoy kickin out the jams buffs.
4: Early Oracles to kill vision if you got fed. This will help your ganks and put pressure on the enemy. You're not item reliant
5: Even though it is tempting, don't build Wriggles on Alistar
6: Clear camps that are in your way. If for example your game plan is to gank mid and be around to countergank the enemy aggression then just cycle around whatever Wraiths/Wolves camps are around. Pick up farm here and there, and use Smite when it's off cooldown and when you won't need it in near future (again, time the buffs)

For safe picks against strong jungle invaders, the best counters are, well, jungle invaders. Shyvana, Udyr and Mundo are some of the fastest clearers. Olaf clears very fast but his early game is so weak you will probably die if you get invaded. Lee Sin can duel with pretty much any jungler and come out on top and he takes buffs fast, but given his early-mid game nature you're going to get your camps stolen.

Alistar, really, is a good pick, but you kind of gamble on being able to get your lanes and yourself fed, otherwise he turns into another support. His CC is still very vital but things like your damage output might suffer and that might be a problem.

[Dante & Vergil]

Just bought Hecarim, and I have no clue what masteries, summoners spells, runes, or items to get with him. Anybody here have perspective ideas here?

[Zen Master]

Because we all know doing something the same way we have always done it, because that is how we we have always done it is a good reason.

When I was a kid, they redefined the rules for penalty kicks in football. It was a year-long debate, and had people not quite litteraly up in arms, but at least at a rather fevered shouting pitch.

When you change the rules, you change the game. Think of your favourite sport - and you know, let it be chess, please - and tell me how many times you've seen a change of the rules?

Clearly, LoL isn't going to last as long as chess. But ... if you like, you can see in chess all the elegance of working inside the framework of restrictions and limitations, making something that was a game into an art.

Or not - hardly everyone enjoys chess. I'm just saying the argument can be made. And that I dislike Hecarims passive.

I'm not, of course, going to add anything further to this, except to point out that my sig still says all.

[Silverraptor]

Just bought Hecarim, and I have no clue what masteries, summoners spells, runes, or items to get with him. Anybody here have perspective ideas here?

Watch the champion spotlight. Work from there.

[TechnOkami]

I kind of want to see pure attack speed on Mr. Deathtaur would go.

[Dogmantra]

Guys his passive is really not that great.

With boots 2 and a triforce and a fully stacked sword of the occult I had only 40 bonus AD at max level. Really don't get that much from it, and I doubt you could build that squishy in a real game where you're not megafed.

still better than Xerath's though
or that one which I insisted was terrible and did a really in depth analysis of comparing its cost when converted to gold to Karma's cost which I forget whose it was
EDIT: Graves that's who it was!

[Math_Mage]

When I was a kid, they redefined the rules for penalty kicks in football. It was a year-long debate, and had people not quite litteraly up in arms, but at least at a rather fevered shouting pitch.

When you change the rules, you change the game. Think of your favourite sport - and you know, let it be chess, please - and tell me how many times you've seen a change of the rules?

Clearly, LoL isn't going to last as long as chess. But ... if you like, you can see in chess all the elegance of working inside the framework of restrictions and limitations, making something that was a game into an art.

Or not - hardly everyone enjoys chess. I'm just saying the argument can be made. And that I dislike Hecarims passive.

I'm not, of course, going to add anything further to this, except to point out that my sig still says all.

I don't know how you stand the biweekly patch schedule.

Anyway, general note, if you want to actually avoid arguments via your sig, you probably shouldn't start out by appealing to general principles of game design. That just invites argument, especially when you justify your position with a vague generality ("respect limitations"), and then don't clarify why you think following that vague generality in this specific case is a good idea.

On that note, why do you think following that general rule in this specific case is a good idea? Is there a game design justification for only having ignores-collision effects on temporary abilities like Lightning Rush, Trample, and Duskbringer?

[ex cathedra]

Seriously, don't 'just' build around his passive, and for the love of god don't build phantom dancers, Swifties, or boots of mobility.

Ghostblade is probably legit, though. Mega CDR/ArPen scaling on Q. Triforce is probably solid if you get super fed/farmed, but it's 4k gold and that's kind of a lot.

Also,
Graves vs Karma passive analysis is totally worthless since you can't objectively measure the relative value of Grave's passive on Graves to Karma's passive on karma.

[tyckspoon]

Just bought Hecarim, and I have no clue what masteries, summoners spells, runes, or items to get with him. Anybody here have perspective ideas here?

Looks like more or less standard tankdps should work; try him out with the same setups you'd use on most of your toplanes/physical junglers* and see how it feels. Item-wise, Rampage seems like a natural pair with Sheen, and Hecarim looks like he could make pretty good use of a TriForce if you wanted to pursue that path.

*Spammable Rampage + damage/lifesteal aura mean you probably don't need Wriggles to jungle. Get it if you really want the free wards or feel you need the faster Dragon/Baron output, but I wouldn't recommend it as a rush.

[Math_Mage]

Yeah, the mixed ratios, low CDs, and movespeed make Trinity and Youmuu's great offensive items for Hecarim. Beyond that...well, he kinda feels like an Atmogsmaw champion to me. I mean, he has a heal, but he doesn't really have anything that benefits from stacking resists like Frozen Heart, and he doesn't need a lot of attack speed with a Q like that. Pity they just nerfed Atma's.

[Eldariel]

When I was a kid, they redefined the rules for penalty kicks in football. It was a year-long debate, and had people not quite litteraly up in arms, but at least at a rather fevered shouting pitch.

When you change the rules, you change the game. Think of your favourite sport - and you know, let it be chess, please - and tell me how many times you've seen a change of the rules?

Clearly, LoL isn't going to last as long as chess. But ... if you like, you can see in chess all the elegance of working inside the framework of restrictions and limitations, making something that was a game into an art.

Or not - hardly everyone enjoys chess. I'm just saying the argument can be made. And that I dislike Hecarims passive.

I'm not, of course, going to add anything further to this, except to point out that my sig still says all.

But what, in your mind, makes unit collisions into a framework rule for the game? There are abilities that cross impassable terrain, champions that don't use mana; basically all limits on champions are rather just guidelines that some champions break and others abide by.

Rules that are meant to be broken if you will. Hell, even the normal ability sequencing is broken by few champions. And there's a champion with 7 different abilities. It seems to me like breaking patterns is a part of generating a more interesting experience on this front, and the breaches themselves rather a part of the game's basic framework.

[toasty]

So Moma has left aAa because apparently he can't commit to the schedule the team wants (that is, practicing all the time). I'm sad. Moma is such a good player, its a shame he can't take LoL more seriously.

Oh well, hopefully aAa can move forward and do well without him.

[Eldariel]

So Moma has left aAa because apparently he can't commit to the schedule the team wants (that is, practicing all the time). I'm sad. Moma is such a good player, its a shame he can't take LoL more seriously.

Oh well, hopefully aAa can move forward and do well without him.

Meh. Moma was such a key player; only time old Millenium did good too was with Moma. Ah well. Can't imagine they'd easily find a replacement but we can always hope.

[Reinboom]

TechnOkami, Skarner:
A bit of competitive jungle shift will most likely occur first, so he doesn't have anyone really looking in to him yet with a hard focus until that's done.

[TechnOkami]

TechnOkami, Skarner:
A bit of competitive jungle shift will most likely occur first, so he doesn't have anyone really looking in to him yet with a hard focus until that's done.

Oh jungle, will you always be my bane and foe? I guess so.

Thank you for the update Rein.

[ex cathedra]

Oh jungle, will you always be my bane and foe? I guess so.

The jungle didn't do anything to you, you're the one who's being rude to the jungle.

[Lea Plath]

OK, bit of a rant.

Spoiler

Show

Started off a bots game me playing Cait and I was taking her escape first to work on that. Trying to improve my escapes etc, especially vs Lux. We had my friend of Skarner, 2nd time playing and she was still learning, focusing on a jungle skarner.

The other members of the team of Heca, Mord and Kennen.

Off to a bad start, the Mord and Kennen bickered over who took mid, until eventually, after minions were fighting, Kennen finally came bot.

He spent a few minutes in bottom, get some stuff, then took off, as he had now decided to jungle. My friend got a grand total of 1 blue before Kennan came and took them all. This Kennan wasn't just taking mobs that had spawned, he was stealing the ones Skarner was fighting. When called out about it, he said that he didn't need to give them to Skarner (true enough), but he had been asked repeatedly to let Skarner get them and general etqiutte is that you let the jungler get them early on when needed. He also went around killing all the monster camps, so Skarner, built to jungle, was forced to lane while seriously weakened from lack of monster camp kills.

Then, when we started to move around the lanes a bit, the Mord began complaining we were lane jumping as he tried to fight 3 on one and died a fair bit.

Then Kennan and Mord get into an arguement with one of them threating to hack the other and get his "4chan buddies" on them. They bickered back and forth from the base, while the enemy pushed and got a turret.

Now me and the skarner decided to use this as a chance to farm the Skarner up a bit, so she could still play, but by that time, it was too late.

We won, eventually, but not fun times

Sorry, just needed to vent.

Anyway, for Heim, how much bonus movement speed does he get at max from his utility and how much extra damage does flash give to his utility?

[Eurus]

Guys his passive is really not that great.

With boots 2 and a triforce and a fully stacked sword of the occult I had only 40 bonus AD at max level. Really don't get that much from it, and I doubt you could build that squishy in a real game where you're not megafed.

still better than Xerath's though
or that one which I insisted was terrible and did a really in depth analysis of comparing its cost when converted to gold to Karma's cost which I forget whose it was
EDIT: Graves that's who it was!

His passive does give you a very nice boost from Ghost, though, and it builds up quite a bit on his speed-buff-charge skill. Or if a support has Shurelia's. Or you have Ghostblade. Or you have Wraith buff in 3v3s. Or... yeah. It's not OMGWTF, but it seems pretty solid to me.

[TechnOkami]

The jungle didn't do anything to you, you're the one who's being rude to the jungle.

It's not my fault that a lot of champions who I like are really good for the Jungle, and I don't Jungle because I don't trust my coherence and map awareness enough to be an effective jungler. Also, I really don't like the concept of jungling just as much and for similar reasons as to why I don't buy Shureliya's: both of them urk me and I just don't like them. Yes they're both good things for league and both have their strengths, but excuse me Aether if I'm opinionated and will not use them.

[Silverraptor]

Guys his passive is really not that great.

still better than Xerath's though

Excuse me? I'm sorry, but I have to say that Xerath's passive is quite beneficial. I can't count the number of times a Garen, or Talon, or Pantheon, or some other AD champ thought I'd be an easy kill and I turn around and kill them with just a few hp to spare.

I'm quite defensive against calling xerath's passive worthless. Because if your opponent manages to close on you, that armor still helps a ton on not being worthless.

[Dogmantra]

I didn't mean to imply it was worthless. It's not like, Eve's passive, but it's pretty much the only X to Y that isn't horrifically OP.

(also check it out, with about 700 AP [this is the most AP I tend to see people get in a reasonable length game and requires basically every item to be some sort of AP booster] he receives just over 100 armour, which is like 1400 gold's worth of defenses, which ain't bad, but then look at Galio's, with 200 MR [this is the most MR I tend to see on people] he gets 100 AP, which is about 2k in free stats, plus it's free stats which are useful against everyone, whereas armour only applies to physical damage champions, Rammus gets about 50 AD from 200 Armour, which is about 1700 gold's worth, looking at Vlad, from that same 700 AP he gets just shy of 1000 health, costing about 2.2k, and say he's got a Rylai's in there, that's 12 extra AP. Incidentally the health here is actually only half as efficient as the effective health you get from Xerath's passive vs physical, so it really depends on the split of damage types which one you'd want more, plus your itemisation

then of course there are OldJax and OldKayle who had such ridiculous passives they had to be removed from the game)

so yeah it's not all that great for an X to Y in terms of free gold, and there are technically situations where it is entirely useless (though I will admit that a situation where it's totally useless is highly unlikely, but a situation where it's not particularly useful against most of the enemy team isn't all that rare)


EDIT: My opinion of how terrible Xerath (hint: extremely) is probably what caused it to look like I was dissing his passive directly though and I will not hide the fact I think he's a piece of junk

[fred dref]

Xerath seems to be similar to Viktor, in my estimation. A strong, viable mage who is just too damn finicky to be worth learning to play at a high level. Especially when people already know how to play TF, Ahri, etc.

[ex cathedra]

Re: Xerath und Viktor:
Except people actually play Viktor because a) he does a lot of damage and b) he does a TON OF DAMAGE while his double-ult bug exists.

It's not my fault that a lot of champions who I like are really good for the Jungle, and I don't Jungle because I don't trust my coherence and map awareness enough to be an effective jungler. Also, I really don't like the concept of jungling just as much and for similar reasons as to why I don't buy Shureliya's: both of them urk me and I just don't like them. Yes they're both good things for league and both have their strengths, but excuse me Aether if I'm opinionated and will not use them.

I didn't say that it was, but you suggested that the jungle was "your enemy," when in fact the jungle is quite pleasant and you're just mean to it. Also, did you really try to explain your reasons for disliking the jungle as "because I dislike the jungle?"

Also, if you have bad map awareness you should try jungling. If you're bad at something, practice and get better, don't be like "I'm bad at this so I should probably stop." Especially since strong map awareness isn't only required in the jungle; it's kind of required everywhere.