[D&D 3.5] Possible Truenamer Rewrite

[Story Time]

Hello. Welcome to the thread.

There...isn't much here at the moment, but I hope that that will change.

I've made the thread because...I love the true-namer. I started another thread based on all of the errors I found in the manual which introduced the true-namer class. I had planned on making a home-brew document called True-namer Help List which would contain much never-before-released content for the true-namer. But then...

...I started making that brand-new material. I typed out nine feats and twelve utterances with more possibles waiting in the background to be typed. I started typing out the first of two new skills for the true-namer class...and realized that my perception of the true-namer class was fundamentally and ideologically different from the interpretation of the base class presented in the Tome.

So I began a new document...one that I hope will feature a cosmology which makes sense for any true-namer players. The document is incomplete. But I want to play a true-namer some day in the way that I feel true-namers were meant to be played. To do that will likely require a complete document which prescribes a consistent cosmology and mechanical formulae for the true-namer class.

...and so that is why I make this thread. My current plan is to expand my fledgeling Presentation Document Format file ( .pdf ) and make it available in various versions once I am able to find a suitable host. If any forum members wish to join me on my...meandering quest...please feel free. Thank you for reading.

[Story Time]

PDF Document Links:



Class Details Links:
Difficulty Check Calculation


Related Links:
Honu
A species I think would be very interesting with this class.

Name Given
The thread, and person, who showed me that true-names in a blood-line was possible.

[Story Time]

(Reserved For Comments)

[Story Time]

(Reserved For Fun)

[Story Time]

The thread is now open. Post if you wish, though there is not much to post about. I'm still looking for a...reputable host for the ( .pdf ) document. Would any Playgrounder know of one?

[The Mentalist]

Scribd is good for PDF hosting.

[Story Time]

Thank you for the suggestion. I'll consider it. What I'd like is a space that is not over inflated by advertizements. That may not be possible, but I'll set the request out there while bringing the document further along.

[The Mentalist]

Thank you for the suggestion. I'll consider it. What I'd like is a space that is not over inflated by advertizements. That may not be possible, but I'll set the request out there while bringing the document further along.

Free space: Check
One small banner ad: Check

[Welknair]

Before proceeding, you may want to check out Kellus's The Way Words Work truenaming fix. I believe that it is what most here use.

[Story Time]

...why is it that every time I start a true-name thread the Universe seems to tell me, "No, you can not have fun with this idea!" ?

...yes, I've been pointed to both Kellus's and Kyeudo's true-namer fixes...numerous ( numerous! ) times by Psyren, among others.

Kyeudo's document does not address the basic concerns with the Laws of Resistance and Sequence that I feel should be addressed. Kellus's fix...had some items in it that were not the kind of true-namer class that I wanted to play. Namely: [Utterances] cannot be targetted [...] without line of sight, Incantations, Recitations, Namelessness, and Name Resistance.

I don't want to suggest that their home-brew classes are bad. But, yes, I am aware of them, thank you.

[Welknair]

...why is it that every time I start a true-name thread the Universe seems to tell me, "No, you can not have fun with this idea!" ?

...yes, I've been pointed to both Kellus's and Kyeudo's true-namer fixes...numerous ( numerous! ) times by Psyren, among others.

Kyeudo's document does not address the basic concerns with the Laws of Resistance and Sequence that I feel should be addressed. Kellus's fix...had some items in it that were not the kind of true-namer class that I wanted to play. Namely: [Utterances] cannot be targetted [...] without line of sight, Incantations, Recitations, Namelessness, and Name Resistance.

I don't want to suggest that their home-brew classes are bad. But, yes, I am aware of them, thank you.

Didn't mean to discourage you, just making sure you'd seen it

I'll be monitoring this.

[Story Time]

It did not settle in as a discouragement. Thank you.


Up-Date Post:

I found one place that might be suitable for storing the document. I haven't finished my investigations.

I...really, really, want to avoid Scribd. Not sure why... Maybe it's the fact that it's not spelled correctly or the Google advertizements. Not sure...

So far, I'm still considering using e-mail and compressed attachments for exposure. I'm still willing to accept private messages with this request, if anyone feels so inclined.

...typed out two new feats. I'm still more concerned with the text which opens the document. The premise of true-names, in other words. I keep looking at it and finding trouble when I try to break it into smaller pieces.

...chatting with Welknair resulted in the construction of a possible true-namer blood-line. I'm still amazed that I can use those four words, in that configuration, in a sentence and be serious. ...thinking about whether I should plan to add the blood-line into the document or not. I'm not really that familiar with the rules for them.

Thanks to Welknair's friendly attitude I'll probably spend too much time thinking about blood-lines rather than the document itself. I haven't even organized a Credits Page.

[Welknair]

Up-Date Post:
...chatting with Welknair resulted in the construction of a possible true-namer blood-line. I'm still amazed that I can use those four words, in that configuration, in a sentence and be serious. ...thinking about whether I should plan to add the blood-line into the document or not. I'm not really that familiar with the rules for them.

Thanks to Welknair's friendly attitude I'll probably spend too much time thinking about blood-lines rather than the document itself. I haven't even organized a Credits Page.

I take it you've read "What in the Nine Hells is a Bloodline?", right? I wrote an entire section on it, showing how the bloodlines are made. It's very nice that they follow a set pattern. As I said before, feel free to run any questions you have by me

[Story Time]

Yes, I did see that thread. It was what led me to the Name Given blood-line. It also got me to crack open Unearthed Arcana for the first time.



Anyway, yes I am having trouble with the blood-line basics. From the perspective of a true-namer, in this home-brew, increasing a character's Knowledge(True-names) ranks is obvious. The idea is that the blood itself teaches the character. The problem arises with the assumption that the blood-line should do more than that. My initial concept was that the first blood-line should be a pure knowledge blood-line with no other types of benefits.

So...I've been stirring around the idea that there could be three types of true-name blood-lines instead of three levels of a blood-line ( minor, intermediate, and major ). The idea of a blood-line affinity between two true-namers...rubs me the wrong way.
( At least for the very first blood-line. Later innovation by true-namers might have allowed for it. )


Although, now that I think about it, if the very first ( the first! ) true-namer blood-line did have an affinity, it would be for interacting with the Universe, rather than other true-namers.

[Story Time]

Up-Date Post:

I started messing around with Knowledge skill synergies. I made a list in my notes and its relatively complete. Initially I thought that it could be just a standard class feature for the true-namer, but it's a lot of synergy for just one level of true-namer... So I'm considering dividing the synergy list into sections to make a list of class features and then somehow span them over twenty levels. My first instinct is to make each synergy selectable by the Player.

...that must be my reading of D20 Modern material rearing up.


For those who care about why:

Spoiler

Show

I don't really want to say it this way. I don't want to belittle the character. But I can't think of another character to better explain...

When I think of a character that understands true-names, I think of Gandalf. Gandalf is not omniscient. He is not clairvoyant. He doesn't know everything. ...But he does know a lot about a wide variety of subjects. He has life experience in the form of research and flat-out Wisdom from which he can draw. And that knowledge goes with him where-ever he does. And if the situation he comes to can be improved with a little dose of that data-based medicine, then it's used.

Seriously, there's a lot more to Gandalf than just that, but this is a concept that I feel applies to true-namers.

It's this basic idea that I feel should be part of every true-namer. The true-namers of the world ( whatever dimension they're in ), know the fundamental names of every-thing they come across. Maybe they don't know certain creatures' Personal True-names, but they know how to find out. This massive devotion to study and knowledge, I feel, should give more of a benefit than just targeting creatures with Utterances.

True-namers are the guys ( and gals! ) that pore through tome after tome in search of words to which the Universe itself will respond when they open their mouths to speak. It's not just one book, it's pages and entire chronicles worth of literature for one measly little syllable! The true-namer should gain more value from that action than just one extra rank in Knowledge(True-names).

So that's why I'm messing around with Knowledge synergies. It won't be a significant bonus. Mechanically, it's probably so weak that bothering with it is silly. But...I hope it'll be fun. I hope it'll encourage role-play at the table. That's essentially the reason that I'm messing around with it.

[Welknair]

Got wi-fi for a bit, so I'm posting while I can. The tri-fold-bloodlines seem like a very interesting idea and I look forward to seeing how they turn out. The Affinities can be a bit difficult to handle, especially for things like Truenamers.. The original 'lines obviously geared them towards the parents, but that doesn't pan out so well for many concepts. Some of my affinities I like better than others. The Knowledge Synergy idea is an intriguing one. If going for a class based around world-knowledge, I would advise, like for all projects, looking at similar concepts. If you haven't already, the Archivist is a good thing to look at, as is the Savant by DonQuixote on these forums.

P.S. Gandalf is an angel. It doesn't really matter to your insights, just thought I should throw that out there.

[Story Time]

Saint Gandalf.

I found the archivist...and was... I'm not sure how to explain my reaction. It was helpful reading in some ways.

I couldn't find the Savant by DonQuixote. The search engine was down at the time. I might try again now that it seems to be up once more.

[Welknair]

I couldn't find the Savant by DonQuixote. The search engine was down at the time. I might try again now that it seems to be up once more.

It's part of his "Spellshaping" project. I'd shoot you a link were I not on my iPad.

[Vauron]

I, on the other hand, am not at an ipad.

[Story Time]

Thanks, guys!

Vauron's link helped.

I'll give a look at it for a while and see what I think.


UP-DATE POST:
PDF Document (Version 0.03.01.10)


Commentary:
Last week I started what I consider the primary mechanism of this true-namer class. It's still all in my notes, of course. And the basic idea seemed fitting to me. I've kept plugging at it since. Changing little things and medium things here and there...

It's not ready for the document, though.

Speaking of documents, if I don't make this available I won't ever receive that well-deserved (punishment?)...

...honor of completing a home-brew concept?

This link goes to a test of the document that I made last week. My primary concerns are the fluffy-puffs of text and its clarity. Yes, I realize that there's not a class table yet ( and many other things ). I'm still typing out the class features.

Also, please take note of the web-site. It seems really decent so far! No strange advertizements.

[Story Time]

Five hundred thread views and only four members posted in the thread?! Something is most certainly amiss!

Normally, I really dis-like double-posting. But the document has been available. This last week was really slow for my home-brew in general. Lots of members sent me private messages since I posted the file. And...none of those messages were about the home-brew.



Very strange. Most of it was character questions and commentary along with campaign ideas or requests. And while I have given significant thought to those, doing so bit into this project ( not to mention physical obligations at home ).

So...should I assume that a bunch squirrels are hiding in the trees and just want to watch the thread? Or are they ponies?


Savant:

Spoiler

Show

Welknair, and apparently Vauron too, suggested that I look at the savant base class made by Don Quixote. And...I liked it. I was surprised. I have not read through all of the Formulae yet for that class, but was interesting. It didn't seem to have the knowledge synergies that I expected it to.

I did find the Savant's Knowledge class feature and it was neat to read. It reminded me of a bard function, helping the Party in a very general...late-night-dungeon-combat kind of way.

So, thanks again for the references. I hadn't made any plans to use that particular brand of class feature with this home-brew. A few utterances might touch on what it could do as well as one of the class features, but it won't be hammered out in the same sense as the Savant rules.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Firstly, off-site work tends to be viewed significantly less, due to the possibility for viruses/other files/just extra work.

Additionally, your off-site pdf has a number of filler pages at the beginning, and then doesn't really have a lot of material after that. I see slightly modified version of the Truename DC (one that still doesn't entirely fix the problems with the Truename DCs...there is still to much variance in skill checks), and a slightly modified version of the Law of Resistance...

I don't really see anything major to critique, is my point. I can't even critique what exists without seeing the rest of what you have in mind, because, at the moment, it doesn't really show that much.

[Story Time]

And yet, I'm still very grateful that you shared your thoughts.

You are right, of course. Off-site material would not be so easy to view. One extra mouse-click can mean the difference between simple and, "Too much work." At the same time, though, I don't really want to put up an entire thread of Bulletin Board Coded information and then re-format that information into Presentation Document Format file just so it will look nice like I think it should.

Yes, the Difficulty was altered as was the Law of Resistance. Thank you for noticing.

I, um...I'm still wondering about how the non-mechanical stuff seemed. I don't know that I'll be able to change the voice of the manual itself now that I've set it, but I'm interested in any impressions of that as well.

Again, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I really should put forth a longer test document if I have any expectation of responses to the document, positive or not.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

The non-mechanical stuff seems fine, although the idea that verbs give you the power is a bit alien to me...I always imagined that having a true name of something merely let you work your will on it like you were the universe itself, which, I'll admit, is an interpretation that I happen to prefer.

That said, it is definitely functional and rather flavorful...but, again, it really was a rather general and somewhat succinct presentation, so comments are limited.

[Story Time]

Thanks. I appreciate that. Flavor is an important goal for me.


Up-Date Post:

Version: 0.04.04.25 of the document is now available. There is now a functional table of contents for what content there is. There is also a table of levels ( progression chart ) for the home-brew class. Page thirteen, ironically.

That class chart is in-complete as is the list of the class features. I keep tweaking them around in my notes, especially the primary class feature. I'm...having some difficulty with it.

There is an all new page ten which might be of interest to any readers. That page will have been edited and improved by the time that any person reads this post, I think.

[Pennance]

Your flavor is disturbing in a good way. The specifics will be elaborated (I'll be sure to shoot you a link) later, for now, let's get down to business?

As far as a bloodline goes, it would not be unfathomable that a very powerful Truenamer could have fundamentally altered his bloodline such that his descendants would develop some capability with Utterances. If not a wide vocabulary, at least several complete phrases? That would allow for the specific powers that a bloodline offers, and there's no reason someone couldn't find a way to give the universe sufficient instructions to produce such an effect. But that's for the two of you to work out.

The way you scale the LoR is fairly sensible, so no complaints from me there.

In as far as base synergy rules go, I know Speak Language gave a bonus, which I feel is fitting. I would also say that each instance of a Knowledge skill with at least 5 ranks would give +.5 on the Truespeech/Research Truename. I would like that to be higher, but it would be expressly overpowered to do so.

You realize that with setup like this, we (or at least I) are (am) expecting you to make rules for developing new utterances? After all, if someone wants to spend the time working out how to phrase the concept they want to convey, they should be able to do so. Which does touch one big issue for Truenaming.

You're going to allow them to gain new vocalizations as Wizards would spells, right? Because it simply doesn't make sense to have a limited amount known, even taking into consideration the complications of this particular subject.

Possibly more concerns later, who knows. I like this, I want to see it do well. I liked the other fixes for Truenamer, but there weren't perfect, and the flavor here is a good start. Though I will be honest, the offsite linking is pretty suspect. I like that you're making such a pretty pdf, but you should be doing the crunch work here on site, and then taking it off into a pdf which you show later. Perhaps also edit your first post so you just have the link to the most recent version, and use it more as a checklist than a work area?

Usually the threads work pretty well for actually doing the heavy lifting.

[Story Time]

Pennance:

Spoiler

Show

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Pennance.

Your flavor is disturbing in a good way.

I'll...take that as a net positive?

As far as a bloodline goes[...]

...yes. Yes it can work like that. It should be able to work like that. The problem as I see it is that the progression charts in Unearthed Arcana do not represent it. I'm some-what currently holding a conversation with Welknair about true-name based blood-lines. We'll see where those go, but I'm thankful that you mentioned this opinion. It'll probably help me.

The way you scale the LoR is fairly sensible, so no complaints from me there.

Thank you. I'm pretty proud of myself for noticing this errata when I read the Tome the first time.

In as far as base synergy rules go[...]

"We shall see what we shall see." I've already typed out the Knowledge Synergy rules in my notes. Once they're in the document members can bring them to my attention ( with math, not with bias ) and I'll make considerations then.

You realize that with setup like this[...]

Yes, I do. It is intended. The class feature that you will be looking for is Speak With [The] Universe. It is the primary feature of the class.

Because it simply doesn't make sense to have a limited amount known, even taking into consideration the complications of this particular subject.

I've given serious consideration to the different types of utterances and I feel that I've arrived at a solution which is both sequitur and appealing. With good fortune, others will think so too.

I like this, I want to see it do well.

...this one sentence makes me grateful. I appreciate that you shared it.

UP-DATE POST:

In my last up-date I failed to mention that I typed out another feat to go into the list. As I mentioned in my first post, and Pennance pondered above, I do have a list of utterances and feats which were not available in the Tome. That is why this class is in the home-brew section. There will be all-new stuff for readers to read. Whether it's worth reading...

[Story Time]

Hello again, thread viewers! Today, I have a small truck-load of text for you.


UP-DATE POST:
Version: 0.05.06.33 of the document is now available. For those interested, please start investigating with page twelve. There is now a functional Law of Sequence. There is also a some-what never-before-seen law.

More importantly there are fluffy-puffs in this release. I am still more interested in the flavor than math at this point, but I have no doubt that we will reach that point.

There's no sense in starting early.

( Page ten is so crowded! )

[Story Time]

UP-DATE POST:

Class features are hard... Maybe I should say more difficult than I expected. But, I've put up some stiff resistance. All, but two are ready to be made publicly reviewable. At least, I feel that way presently.

I edited the wording of one of the feats which caught my eye. Those probably won't be in the document for the next public edition. The reason why is that I feel there are not yet enough of them, nor do I feel that they are ready.

Way up near the top of the thread, I edited the links section again. Welknair's Name Given link is back where it belongs ( woops! ) and I also put in a reference for a really neat species that I thought would make a neat true-name using character. Yes, they are in alphabetical order.

Next on the home-brew document agenda is probably tables. The Class Feature text section is close to completion, but not all of the visual tables are made, let alone organized. I...like...organized documents. Could you tell?

[Story Time]

UP-DATE POST:

Okay, true-name fans. Time ( that's me ), is in need of a break. Four and one quarter pages of class features are in the document. And there's one that I still want to tweak. Three chart-tables currently exist though they may, or may not, be changed.

Some of the Laws have also been adjusted / improved.

The Race sub-section of the Class Description section now has appropriate text. I was initially aiming for humor, but then I decided to fill it in. Also, another section in addition to that has been added to the general Class Description section.

And...after having spent some-thing of a week wringing my brain out trying to think of some thing to fill the empty, late-stage, class levels with odd numbers, I had an idea. It's not currently in the charts, though. The idea, if I use it, will require a restructuring of one of the class features that I just finished.

So...I'm sure you can understand that I'd like a little recess / vacation.

Normally, I'd consider posting the current version...but I can't make myself do it. That one class feature just...isn't right yet. It's not right in that I don't feel that it's right. I some-how think that the class features section will be heavily...examined and investigated at some later point after the in-progress version is released.

But, I...would very much like a rest. Two hundred fifty thread views in two weeks with only...two member posts? That should tell me some-thing. I'm not sure what. But...at least I know that my math skills work.

So, for the moment, I'm going to take a recess from true-names. One of the games I'm running here on this forum started up again.

I am still grateful and appreciative of the people who have kindly shared their encouragement to me over this project. That is my sincere feeling.

For now, though, see you all later.