General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

[Sanguine]

Short of designing your own charm tree, what is it that draws people to play infernals as opposed to abyssals or solars?

As others have said they've got really cool Charms and their are many really cool stories you can tell with them but not the other two.

Solars fall into the "Superman is the most boring hero to exist" flaw. They can do pretty much everything, sure (except fly and swim, zing!), but they can't do it with a unique and flavorful twist that makes them enjoyable. So what if they can run fast? Everyone can run fast! So what if they can walk on water? Everyone can walk on water!

I'm pretty sure there's actually a Solar Charm that let's you fly. Eagle-Wing Style, I think. I know it's one of the Athletics Charms in Core.

I will note that I'd never play a Loyalist Infernal

I will and have played Loyalist Infernals. But always with the intention of going rogue at some later point.

The main difference between Renegade Infernal (NOT necessarily Devil-Tiger) and Renegade Abyssal is that the Renegade Infernal does the 'pfheh, angst. I'm an Exalted!' much better than an Abyssal. On the other hand, you really can't play a Renegade infernal through the long, tortuous trek to redemption.

This is very true.

[snake obsidian]

Mmmm. The Ink Monkeys came up with some cool stuff (and the Daystar was awesome).

What books do you have apart from the core rulebook?

A whole lot of them. Browsed through most, really.

[Lix Lorn]

Short of designing your own charm tree, what is it that draws people to play infernals as opposed to abyssals or solars?

The charms that are already there are so INTERESTING.
Don't get me wrong, Solar charms are cool. You can do some awesome things-Iron Raptor is nice, Heaven Thunder Hammer is the most yellable charm outside of Malfeas trees, amd Lightning Strikes Twice is the best charm tree ever no exceptions. However, they're pretty plain. What is awesome about most solar charms is what you invest in them.

Infernal charms already have a theme. You can change that theme to a different one, but if you don't-that's cool. They're already badass.

[Tavar]

I've heard it likened to the difference between an adder and a multiplier. Most charmsets act like a coolness adder. The Solar one, however, is a straight multiplier: the more you put in, the more you get.

[Lord Raziere]

A whole lot of them. Browsed through most, really.

Be specific. Its very important that you be specific.

2nd Edition has say…..varying quality in its books. Mechanically, at the very least.

Its easy to get into pitfalls if you don't know what you've got.

[snake obsidian]

Be specific. Its very important that you be specific.

2nd Edition has say…..varying quality in its books. Mechanically, at the very least.

Its easy to get into pitfalls if you don't know what you've got.

Uh, okay, let me begin with the core book. Then, the Manuals for Abyssals, Alchemicals, Dragon-Blooded, Lunars. I´ve only glanced the Sidereal one once or twice, I´ve read the first 4 Books of Sorcery, The Scrolls of Errata, Heroes, Exalts, Monks, Celestial and Terrestrial Directions, the first four, and the Glories, but I haven´t had a chance to play yet.

[industrious]

What does starmetal look like? I love playing Sidereals, but I never understood what their magical material even looked like.

Is there a description anywhere?

[Qwertystop]

What does starmetal look like? I love playing Sidereals, but I never understood what their magical material even looked like.

Is there a description anywhere?

The description of corrupting it in the Infernals book describes the corrupted stuff as being grey with glimmers of otherworldly Malfean stars, so I'd guess at silver with sparkles on the edge of perception.

[Drascin]

What does starmetal look like? I love playing Sidereals, but I never understood what their magical material even looked like.

Is there a description anywhere?

It's apparently "sort of rainbow-hued" - I tend to imagine it as having a sort of silvery base and then being iridescent, looking a different hue depending on how the light hits it, kinda like soap bubble surfaces.

This would make a pure starmetal armor absolutely fabulous, of course. It's almost a pity starmetal armors probably don't have more than 20% starmetal tops due to how doggone rare the thing is.

[Kobold-Bard]

What does starmetal look like? I love playing Sidereals, but I never understood what their magical material even looked like.

Is there a description anywhere?

Well the Hearthstone Amulet/Bracers in the core book are sort of silvery-grey. I remember reading that artefacts made from it are usually spider web-like in design since it's so rare and that uses less of it.

[Sallera]

Yeah, there's a proper description somewhere, probably in Oadenol's. If I recall correctly, it's basically what Drascin said - looks like steel until the light hits it right, then you get that opalescent effect.

[Exthalion]

It is rare in only a relative sense. The dome of the great observatory of Rathes is pure starmetel made from the loyalist gods after the Primordial War. That is several hundred tons of the stuff right there just waiting for a Sidereal on vacation to make into the Pimp Coat of Fate or what have you.

[Rockphed]

I've heard it likened to the difference between an adder and a multiplier. Most charmsets act like a coolness adder. The Solar one, however, is a straight multiplier: the more you put in, the more you get.

So character concepts that are rather cool will end up being coolest as solar characters, while characters who are meh, or just don't fit the solar idea of cool, will be best as something else?

[Gensh]

So character concepts that are rather cool will end up being coolest as solar characters, while characters who are meh, or just don't fit the solar idea of cool, will be best as something else?

It's not quite like that. It's more that if you have a theme and you play a Solar, then you're solely using that theme. Since Solars only have weak thematic associations, you absolutely have to make them interesting yourself or they're not. Other Exalt types, especially Abyssals and Infernals, already have strong fluff, which can lead to players being lazy and not adding to it in any way. It also doesn't help that some Infernal Charms are also locked - Vitriolic Corona Endowment is always a spear, so too bad, you can't be an axe-wielding Viking Slayer.

[Lord Raziere]

Uh, okay, let me begin with the core book. Then, the Manuals for Abyssals, Alchemicals, Dragon-Blooded, Lunars. I´ve only glanced the Sidereal one once or twice, I´ve read the first 4 Books of Sorcery, The Scrolls of Errata, Heroes, Exalts, Monks, Celestial and Terrestrial Directions, the first four, and the Glories, but I haven´t had a chance to play yet.

Ok, Scroll of the Monk and Heroes, those aren't really mechanically good at all, the developers have freely admitted that everything in Monks is a mechanical disaster because one of them didn't know anything about mechanics at the time, don't get me wrong, you can still play with them, but you have to be really careful, especially with Sidereal Martial Art's cause those are phenomenally broken. Except for the one Sidereal Martial Art in Glories: Maidens, thats fine.

And be careful around the Scroll of Hero's Merits/Flaws system, they apparently aren't that mechanically sound either.

Everything else you have….basically fine, but I'd recommend you ignore Casteless Lunars entirely……they are basically unplayable because of the mutation thing they have.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Heh, I can answer the Infernals question with a post I made in another thread.

Do you know why renegade Infernals with high Past Life and Savant ratings are my favorite characters? Because they know. They have the memories of an insane superpower. They are metaphysically tied to beings that want to destroy humanity, and have a half-decent reason to. And they fight them anyway. They put down Solars and Abyssals alike, fight off Dragon-Blooded and Akuma, and occasionally seduce someone when things get too stressful. They are not just props for cinematic fight scenes.

But when the fight scenes roll around, they're good at that too.

Also. Asura's Wrath.


Anyway, as for the new player, Scroll of Heroes and Scroll of the Monk are bad. Really bad. They're for ideas only, and maybe a couple Charms or styles.


You guys all remember this, right? Well, except for snake obsidian. I think I know which Shard goes with which Empress...
Top left: Space Opera
Top Right: Alternate History
Middle Left: Vanilla, duh
Middle Right: Um... Alternate History Space Opera? Maybe the other Space Opera was young Empress entering the Sword of Creation/whatever it's called in Space Opera.
Bottom Left: Burn Legend
Bottom Right: Modern

[horngeek]

In addition, Lunar Charms aren't broken (not as badly as Sidereals were) so much as just... not very good. There are a few builds that really work with them, the rest does not. Thankfully, they're getting an overhaul.

If you get Sidereals, the errata is even more vital, because their Charms are broken otherwise.

[Doran]

When infernals play baseball?

[Hiro Protagonest]

When infernals play baseball?

That's when Solars play baseball. Infernals can throw knuckleballs.

[horngeek]

Ohgod.

I can't stop laughing now.

[industrious]

If the Batter was also a Solar, though, then he'd perfectly parry.

...would that be considered a bunt?

[Gensh]

If the Batter was also a Solar, though, then he'd perfectly parry.

...would that be considered a bunt?

Depends on how you stunt it. If you had a perfect soak, you could also take the walk if you didn't have confidence in your Dex+Melee pool.

Unrelated question: was it ever explained why Cecelyne has the hierarchy Charms instead of SWLIHN? I don't get it; the Perfected Principle of Hierarchy has zero hierarchy Charms and instead just has SCIENCE! which is more Autochthon's schtick anyway (and the Infernal Craft set should obviously be Malfeas'). I mean, they could have given Cecelyne the Charms and used nothing but fluff about hell's laws, but it specifically mentions hierarchy.

[Draxar]

What does starmetal look like? I love playing Sidereals, but I never understood what their magical material even looked like.

Is there a description anywhere?

I remember one of the writers once describing it as what a CD looks like under the right sort of light; the shifting rainbow of different colours, depending on what colour hits it where.

[industrious]

Depends on how you stunt it. If you had a perfect soak, you could also take the walk if you didn't have confidence in your Dex+Melee pool.

Ah. But what happens if he uses a Perfect Defense with the Temperance Flaw?

[Gensh]

Ah. But what happens if he uses a Perfect Defense with the Temperance Flaw?

Is there a Delay of Game penalty in baseball? I haven't played since middle school.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Unrelated question: was it ever explained why Cecelyne has the hierarchy Charms instead of SWLIHN? I don't get it; the Perfected Principle of Hierarchy has zero hierarchy Charms and instead just has SCIENCE! which is more Autochthon's schtick anyway (and the Infernal Craft set should obviously be Malfeas'). I mean, they could have given Cecelyne the Charms and used nothing but fluff about hell's laws, but it specifically mentions hierarchy.

...Isn't Cecelyne the Principle of Heirarchy? I thought SWLiHN merely supported her, and has the whole "no free will means they can't deviate from the Principal" thing. Autochthon's thing encompasses engineering, but isn't SCIENCE.

[Incendius]

Depends on how you stunt it. If you had a perfect soak, you could also take the walk if you didn't have confidence in your Dex+Melee pool.

Unrelated question: was it ever explained why Cecelyne has the hierarchy Charms instead of SWLIHN? I don't get it; the Perfected Principle of Hierarchy has zero hierarchy Charms and instead just has SCIENCE! which is more Autochthon's schtick anyway (and the Infernal Craft set should obviously be Malfeas'). I mean, they could have given Cecelyne the Charms and used nothing but fluff about hell's laws, but it specifically mentions hierarchy.

Because in SWLiHN's hierarchy you don't even have the choice of attacking or doing any of the things that Cecelyne charms prohibit; everything is a mindless extension of the hierarchy. SWLiHN doesn't need anything else to enforce her hierarchy, because anything in her hierarchy already conducts itself appropriately.

By contrast, Cecelyne is The Lawgiver, and her charms are based on making proscriptions or punishments based on her law. Her law does somewhat sync with SWLiHN's hierarchy, but the important difference is that Cecelyne still wants her subjects to have free will (so that they can 'choose' to worship her) and thus she needs to have charms to restrict that will.

[Tavar]

That's when Solars play baseball. Infernals can throw knuckleballs.

Actually, when I mentioned that on the Exalted Chat, Holden commented that Infernal charms don't work with baseball, as they can only enhance the king of games: Space Jam.

Spoiler

Show

He may not have been entirely serious when he said this

[Weimann]

...Isn't Cecelyne the Principle of Heirarchy? I thought SWLiHN merely supported her, and has the whole "no free will means they can't deviate from the Principal" thing. Autochthon's thing encompasses engineering, but isn't SCIENCE.

SWLiHN is the Principle of Hierarchy, Cecelyne is the Endless Desert.

I like to make this distinction: Cecelyne is the arbitrary corrupted government or juridical system who will selectively apply laws or standards at it fits them. SWLiHN is the perfectly mechanical government or juridical system with no appeal for the individual.

[Cyborg Mage]

We're looking for an ST over in this thread, in case anyone's interested. Sorry if I'm interrupting any lines of debate here.

Also;

What does starmetal look like? I love playing Sidereals, but I never understood what their magical material even looked like.

Is there a description anywhere?

I had always assumed it was a silvery-grey sort of colour-possibly flecked with brighter metal, much like a Sid's eyes? But whatever, not like it ever comes in non-wireframe form.