How do you capture a wizard?

[Teron]

Why do people still argue with the guy who considers using non-core material to be cheating?

[Flickerdart]

Why do people still argue with the guy who considers using non-core material to be cheating?

Because he does not even know core material.

[bloodtide]

The Polymorph subschool explicitly does not take precedence over existing spell text. Alter Self, on which Polymorph is based, states:
It is rather clear-cut. In the future, I would recommend reading the rules before making a statement like that.

It's not so clear cut. After all they go on for several paragraphs on the fix for the polymorph spells, then toss out one line that says ''oh all this does not apply to any spells that came before.'' So then what is the point of the polymorph subschool? It does not apply to anything then? It's just a waste of space in the book?

Well, of course not. The polymorph subschool should be seen as the base...this is what all polymoprh spells do, and then you modify it by the spell you cast. So, for example, incorporeal creatures are immune to alter self as per the polymorph subschool rules and the spell alter self does not have a line that says ''if your an incorporela creature you may cast this spell on yourself''.

[bloodtide]

Why do people still argue with the guy who considers using non-core material to be cheating?

It's not cheating 'just' to use non-core material. The cheating part comes in two big parts. 1. To mis read and mis rule the rules to your personal benefit. and 2. to search out every book know and find the perfect combo of things.

[Flickerdart]

It's not so clear cut. After all they go on for several paragraphs on the fix for the polymorph spells, then toss out one line that says ''oh all this does not apply to any spells that came before.'' So then what is the point of the polymorph subschool? It does not apply to anything then? It's just a waste of space in the book?

It changes all of the spells in the book. It changes Rogues being able to morph into Hydras and make 12 sneak attacks per round. It just doesn't change spellcasting, because a spell with explicit precedence says it doesn't. This is RAW.

Well, of course not. The polymorph subschool should be seen as the base...this is what all polymoprh spells do, and then you modify it by the spell you cast. So, for example, incorporeal creatures are immune to alter self as per the polymorph subschool rules and the spell alter self does not have a line that says ''if your an incorporela creature you may cast this spell on yourself''.

Except that is not what the rules say. The rules say that the old spells are the base, and that the Polymorph subschool only fills in details that the old spells do not mention.

Your house rules are fine for your table, perhaps. But they are not written in the books.

It's not cheating 'just' to use non-core material. The cheating part comes in two big parts. 1. To mis read and mis rule the rules to your personal benefit.

Which is what you are doing presently.

and 2. to search out every book know and find the perfect combo of things.

This is called Pun-Pun. Everything else is not a perfect combo by definition, because it is not Pun-Pun.

[bloodtide]

Your house rules are fine for your table, perhaps. But they are not written in the books.

Well, even if you allow spellcasting dire tortoises, they still can't cast spells as they can't speak and have no hands. So you'd still be a dire tortoise with just 10 contingent spells.



I'm curious as to your ruling on the Lighting Strike ability of the Dire Tortoise. One side will say the dire tortoise get that free surprise round to take any action they want to as that action. The other side would say the lighting strike must be the dire tortoise attacking physically.

[Flickerdart]

Well, even if you allow spellcasting dire tortoises, they still can't cast spells as they can't speak and have no hands. So you'd still be a dire tortoise with just 10 contingent spells.

Nonverbal spell. Silent/Sudden Silent/Metamagic Rod. Scrolls or wands.

I'm curious as to your ruling on the Lighting Strike ability of the Dire Tortoise. One side will say the dire tortoise get that free surprise round to take any action they want to as that action. The other side would say the lighting strike must be the dire tortoise attacking physically.

The text is clear. On the first round of combat, the tortoise gets a surprise round. The ability places no restrictions on what the tortoise may do during that round. If you are attempting to argue that "lash out" is an attack, I must point out that lashing out with a spell equally fulfills the fluffy little requirement.

[Zonugal]

This is always the problem with the people that think 'wizards are over powered'. No matter what you say to do, they find some crazy thing of ''oh the wizard cast this spell or made this item or did this.'' But, of course, the wizard only did this as they knew of the coming attack. But it's impossible to plan to be attacked every day of your life. And even more so it's impossible for a wizard to live a normal life(as if they were a real character, not a game construct).

But the idea sounds fun. Anyone one want to make a 10th level wizard and let us 'wizards are not so powerful' types come up with a way to catch the wizard. And I'm, at least, not talking about the arena combat where the two foes stand ten feet away and say 'fight'; I'm talking about a wizard that is a living breathing character in a campaign. So the wizard is living a normal wizard life, not casting all defensive spells and waiting to be attacked every second of their life.

I think I rough build I'd propose would be a Male Glacier Dwarf Wizard 5/Crusader 1/Runesmith 1/Mage of the Arcane Order 4. He'd be a domain wizard (cold) with the spontaneous divination acf. His flavor would be he used to be an adventurer than a high-ranking soldier in a dwarven army until finally retiring for a quiet life of academy.

I'd present him with solid feats which I feel, thematically, would work alongside his story.

And I guess the biggest advantage he'd have is not spending every day polymorphed as a dire tortoise and actually being a character.

[bloodtide]

Nonverbal spell. Silent/Sudden Silent/Metamagic Rod. Scrolls or wands.

How would a dire tortoise use a scroll or a wand?

The text is clear. On the first round of combat, the tortoise gets a surprise round. The ability places no restrictions on what the tortoise may do during that round. If you are attempting to argue that "lash out" is an attack, I must point out that lashing out with a spell equally fulfills the fluffy little requirement.

Spoiler

Show

Ok so: Lightning Strike (Ex): A dire tortoise can lash out very
rapidly. On the first round of combat, it gets a surprise
round regardless of whether it has been noticed. A creature
that notices the dire tortoise is still treated as flat-footed
during this round.

Well, I'd say that reading the rules this way...that a dire tortoise can take any action in it's surprise round is wrong. But reading the rules the way that benefits you is the number one trick that cheating optimizers use to break the game and attempt to ruin everyone's fun. But it's just a personal ruling, of course. My personal games will never, ever have a dire tortoise spell caster that can cast awesome spell combos on that surprise round, so it does not matter to me. And should a player even suggest that they wanted to do that, they would come close to getting an instant ban from any of my games. But if they want to play in a game where dire tortoise spellcasters are like knocking the moon out of the sky on their surprise rounds every day, then they are free to do so.


But all that aside. Lets say the capture group all polymorph into Dire Tortoises too. So they surprise the dire tortoise wizard with the real surprise, as they attack suddenly when he does not know they are there. So who goes first?

[Flickerdart]

How would a dire tortoise use a scroll or a wand?

The same way anyone else does.

Well, I'd say that reading the rules this way...that a dire tortoise can take any action in it's surprise round is wrong. But reading the rules the way that benefits you is the number one trick that cheating optimizers use to break the game and attempt to ruin everyone's fun.

There is nothing in this text that so much as mentions physical attacks. Sorry.

But all that aside. Lets say the capture group all polymorph into Dire Tortoises too. So they surprise the dire tortoise wizard with the real surprise, as they attack suddenly when he does not know they are there. So who goes first?

You roll initiative and hold a surprise round where everyone gets to act in the order of initiative, as normal.

[bloodtide]

The same way anyone else does.

So, how does a dire tortoise carry around scrolls? If they have a backpack on there shell, how do they get the scroll out? How do they even open a scroll case? And how does a dire tortoise hold a scroll so that they can read it? And can a tortoise even preform the ''short, simple finishing parts of the spellcasting like the final gestures, words''?

What about wands? You need to hold a wand in your hand, as a dire tortoise has no hands, how can they hold a wand? Would you say a dire tortoise foot can hold and point a wand?

[Flickerdart]

So, how does a dire tortoise carry around scrolls? If they have a backpack on there shell, how do they get the scroll out? How do they even open a scroll case? And how does a dire tortoise hold a scroll so that they can read it? And can a tortoise even preform the ''short, simple finishing parts of the spellcasting like the final gestures, words''?

What about wands? You need to hold a wand in your hand, as a dire tortoise has no hands, how can they hold a wand? Would you say a dire tortoise foot can hold and point a wand?

Gloves of Man.

I think I am beginning to understand your distaste for knowing the rules.

For me, if my character is incapable of doing something I think he ought to be able to do, this represents a Problem. Being the problem solving type, I seek a Solution to this Problem. When there is a Solution, then my character is a good character.

For you, it would appear, if a character is incapable of doing something, then he should never aspire to do it. All exploration ends with the first step. It is certainly a way to play. But it is not the way, and judging by how many supplements exist for 3.5, I would wager it is not the way the developers intended that the game should be played.

[Menteith]

So, how does a dire tortoise carry around scrolls? If they have a backpack on there shell, how do they get the scroll out? How do they even open a scroll case? And how does a dire tortoise hold a scroll so that they can read it? And can a tortoise even preform the ''short, simple finishing parts of the spellcasting like the final gestures, words''?

What about wands? You need to hold a wand in your hand, as a dire tortoise has no hands, how can they hold a wand? Would you say a dire tortoise foot can hold and point a wand?

This is a fair point. Unless using additional spells that would allow for speech, fine manipulation, and carrying around a Haversack, there's a strong argument against using Wands and Scrolls in Dire Tortoise form. Of course, that still leaves the Wizard with their regular spells - and that should be fine for almost every circumstance anyway. Scrolls are more for "what if" situations, while being able to escape an Ambush is something one is going to devote slots to.

[bloodtide]

I think I am beginning to understand your distaste for knowing the rules.

For me, if my character is incapable of doing something I think he ought to be able to do, this represents a Problem. Being the problem solving type, I seek a Solution to this Problem. When there is a Solution, then my character is a good character.

For you, it would appear, if a character is incapable of doing something, then he should never aspire to do it. All exploration ends with the first step. It is certainly a way to play. But it is not the way, and judging by how many supplements exist for 3.5, I would wager it is not the way the developers intended that the game should be played.

I play the game to have fun, as do most of the people I play the game with. If a wizard turns into a cat, we are all fine saying ''a cat can't pick up a scroll and read it'' and just getting on with the game. We use what is called common sense in our game, so even if some nut can find a couple lines in a couple books and put them all together with their own personal interpretation and say ''tortoises can fly'', we will just laugh at him and say ''no''.

I'm fine with characters doing any trick in the game to over come problems, otherwise simply known as playing the game. But I don't like the guy that digs through the rules to find ways around problems without playing the game.

[Flickerdart]

I feel like you should not enforce upon the others your opinion of what "the game" is, considering that even the publishers of the game would disagree with you, simply by the act of their publishing the game.

[bloodtide]

I feel like you should not enforce upon the others your opinion of what "the game" is, considering that even the publishers of the game would disagree with you, simply by the act of their publishing the game.

Where do you get ''enforce'' from. If you say a dire tortoise can carry around, hold and manipulate and read a scroll I would say, sorry, you can't play in my game.

And I disagree with the publishers anyway. But why does that even matter?

[Flickerdart]

Where do you get ''enforce'' from. If you say a dire tortoise can carry around, hold and manipulate and read a scroll I would say, sorry, you can't play in my game.

Despite there existing an item specifically created for monsters to manipulate things without having human-like hands? And yet you wonder why I say you are enforcing your opinion on others.

And I disagree with the publishers anyway. But why does that even matter?

If you do not care about RAW or RAI then all that remains are house rules, and at that point, why do you call it D&D?

[Zonugal]

Persistent polymorphing into a dire tortoise is such an pathetic idea. It displays paranoia in the highest degree. You are presenting a powerful wizard who, out of fear, has decided to leave behind any semblance of his original form to live as a turtle. Never mind that turtle doesn't really have hands or capable speech, so now that paranoid wizard has to throw on necessary attachments/accessories just to facilitate their new, paranoid-bestowed form.

At this point it isn't a matter of power, because you had that in spades before you became a turtle. You now aren't respectable and come across as controlled by your own insecurities.

Your wizard is now pathetic.

Absolutely pathetic.

[Flickerdart]

Absolutely pathetic.

So pathetic that he can kill you before you have the chance to blink. Pride works on dragons, not wizards. Not wizards who are still alive, anyway.

[Eisenfavl]

I'd be perfectly happy to stat up a level 10 wizard who I would actually play in a game, just to prove how deific they are.

[Zonugal]

So pathetic that he can kill you before you have the chance to blink. Pride works on dragons, not wizards. Not wizards who are still alive, anyway.

A hermit is never attacked because a hermit never provokes.

If you wrap your wizard in every insecure-born protection they cease to be of any grand importance.

So it really doesn't matter if your Wizard can re-shape the world if he has left it behind for safety's sake.

But this is over-looking the assumption that every Wizard (no matter the level) is constantly under threat of assassination.

Which is an awful one.

[bloodtide]

Despite there existing an item specifically created for monsters to manipulate things without having human-like hands? And yet you wonder why I say you are enforcing your opinion on others.

The point is not that there is that one or two holy grail item out there that make the whatever work. The point is the whatever does not work. A dire tortoise can not use items, any items. Period. Final. Now can a dire tortoise use a magic item to over come what it can't do, yes.

If you do not care about RAW or RAI then all that remains are house rules, and at that point, why do you call it D&D?

I care about the rules as a nice reference to go by to play a fun game, not some straight jacket to snuff out all the fun. And the publishers where 'unwise' enough to let lots of obvious mistakes into the game, so their judgement can't be trusted for anything.

I never did get the jerk player idea. As if we must let some jerk come over to out house, sit down at our table and do something Dumb Optimizing Cheat like the Gate Infinite Wish Loop, kill all of the other characters ans destroy the whole game world...and all we can do is sit there and do nothing or 'we' are not playing D&D?

[Flickerdart]

If you wrap your wizard in every insecure-born protection they cease to be of any grand importance.

How do you figure that?

A dire tortoise can not use items, any items. Period. Final.

Now can a dire tortoise use a magic item to over come what it can't do, yes.

Um.

[bloodtide]

I'd be perfectly happy to stat up a level 10 wizard who I would actually play in a game, just to prove how deific they are.

And I'd be happy to come up with the plan to capture said wizard, just to prove how weak they are.

Gauntlet Thrown Down.

[Flickerdart]

And I'd be happy to come up with the plan to capture said wizard, just to prove how weak they are.

Gauntlet Thrown Down.

Of course, once you have decided that a wizard "should be able to be captured" it doesn't matter what the rules say, does it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A hermit is never attacked because a hermit never provokes.

If you wrap your wizard in every insecure-born protection they cease to be of any grand importance.

So it really doesn't matter if your Wizard can re-shape the world if he has left it behind for safety's sake.

But this is over-looking the assumption that every Wizard (no matter the level) is constantly under threat of assassination.

Which is an awful one.

Double check the OP please. The whole point of the thread is that the wizard is, in fact, under constant threat of capture.

I fail to see what is wrong with being a turtle. It worked out great for a quartet of swordsages, after all. If I wish to appear humanoid, that's what the Illusion college was designed for.

Meanwhile, I'm still alive and free.

Form follows function, after all. Scoff at the form if you like. At least until you are obliterated by my surprise round. Or I, once again, escape your clutches by vanishing into thin air the moment you approach, leaving behind only a smile. Oh, wait... that was the cat form, nevermind.

[bloodtide]

Of course, once you have decided that a wizard "should be able to be captured" it doesn't matter what the rules say, does it.

I'm not sure what you mean. Were not talking about 'rocks fall' and the wizard is captured. We are talking about how you would capture a real wizard character in gameplay. But not a Crazy Cheating Optimized Character just made to win the argument.

Yes, you can make an unbeatable character a couple ways. But that is by no means a normal character in a normal game world. The court wizard of the kingdom does not walk around as a dire tortoise 24/7 in any type of normal game. Even if your just the local wizard that runs a tavern, you don't sit behind the bar as a dire tortoise all day and night.

[Flickerdart]

But that is by no means a normal character in a normal game world. The court wizard of the kingdom does not walk around as a dire tortoise 24/7 in any type of normal game.

Says you.

Even if your just the local wizard that runs a tavern, you don't sit behind the bar as a dire tortoise all day and night.

What kind of "normal" wizard runs a tavern?

[Eisenfavl]

And I'd be happy to come up with the plan to capture said wizard, just to prove how weak they are.

Gauntlet Thrown Down.

Challenge: you can't use full casters with access to level 4+ spells or replicate (via scroll or wand or similar means) spells over level 4. This applies to psionics and other full caster equivalency systems as well. Things like warlocks are fine, as are items which require high level spells, TOB is fine assuming you don't use arcane swordsage to get level 4+ spells. (obviously this doesn't apply to me)
Nothing over level 20. (10 for me)
No infinite loops.
Standard, non-crafting enhanced WBL for both of us.
Maximum 100 levels total for you, standard WBL for those levels.

Agreed?

[Flickerdart]

Careful, you should establish what a 'Crazy Cheating Optimized Character' entails. I mean, you might actually cast a spell, instead of running your tavern like a normal wizard.