League of Legends XXXIII: Game of Mundo

[Arbitrarity]

All right, now I'm confused. I can't seem to see my last post in this thread, so I can't edit it. (found and deleted, never mind)

Anyways, testing shows that the 10 gold for smiting is somehow factored into dragon/baron kills if it's a last hit, but not for other monsters. Bizarre.

[Math_Mage]

On Spectator mode, I just watched two dragons being taken with Smite, and in each case the smiter got 225 gold (190 base + 10 smite + 25 for the last hit). So I dunno what y'all are talkin' about.

[Arbitrarity]

If you play as the Jungler, and last hit dragon with smite, you get 2 (not 3) gold indicators, for 200 gold, and 25 gold, respectively.

[Lix Lorn]

(like... the most frustrating thing in the game is seeing Talon/Fiora build triforce instead of Bloodthirster. The same goes for Rivens who build Frozen Mallet) I don't really know.

...Triforce on Talon? O_o He doesn't want AS, AP, doesn't have massively spammable abilities, and would prefer a mallet to the phage slow...

>Hecarim<

It might be that I see bad ones, or that he's good with specific teamcomps or at high elo or something. I barely know what I'm talking about. xD

To reference Dota/Dota 2, Lifestealer? Besides the fact that the duration is extremely short, you still take damage from attacks, and you appear to be still in control of the minion (possibly with your attack stats?), it's very similar. It's also very fun, but I don't think it's the kind of ability Riot wants in the game at all, let alone on an item.

There's also the fact that "hides in a minion" is something that's a helluva lot better for melee champs that are strong 1v1, not mages. I mean, Veigar hiding in a minion is cute and all, but the key attribute of this, being able to get close to somebody with them unaware you're around, doesn't really help him that much.

I pulled the duration out of a hat. I was just thinking it'd be fun, and I made it a Guise upgrade because of the mask=deception idea, my desire to add a robe to the game (robe and wizard hat!). I thought it'd be stronger for a melee character, which I actually considered a good thing, considering it might be slightly OP otherwise.

[toasty]

...Triforce on Talon? O_o He doesn't want AS, AP, doesn't have massively spammable abilities, and would prefer a mallet to the phage slow...

Triforce is a ****ty item that everyone likes to buy. Its not my fault that Phreak decided it was OP.

[PEACH]

I pulled the duration out of a hat. I was just thinking it'd be fun, and I made it a Guise upgrade because of the mask=deception idea, my desire to add a robe to the game (robe and wizard hat!). I thought it'd be stronger for a melee character, which I actually considered a good thing, considering it might be slightly OP otherwise.

The fact is that it's poor design to have an ability that is specifically good for melee champs on a subset of items that's almost entirely ranged champs. Imagine a BFS item that built into magic pen.

[ex cathedra]

On Spectator mode, I just watched two dragons being taken with Smite, and in each case the smiter got 225 gold (190 base + 10 smite + 25 for the last hit). So I dunno what y'all are talkin' about.

In spectator mode I'm like 60% sure that all gold bounties are merged. For example, if Galio Q's a back wave you, as the spectator, see Galio get like +70 gold.

[tyckspoon]

Triforce is a ****ty item that everyone likes to buy. Its not my fault that Phreak decided it was OP.

Hey, it's a perfectly good item. It builds out of three individually good items, it upgrades them all in the combination for a mere 300g combine, and it's ludicrously slot-efficient because of it. The major problem, IMO, is that it's built for a champ design philosophy that Riot has since abandoned, and you no longer see a lot of AP ratios or a lot of mana use on the kinds of characters that the TriForce was designed for... so while the Sheen proc is excellent, the Sheen stats are often dead weight and result in paying ~1000 extra gold for stats many characters don't use.

(I would *love* an AD-focused item with the Sheen effect, or just have it attached to a generically useful stat like cooldown reduction.. maybe an alternate Brutalizer upgrade?)

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Kennen is my new favorite AD Carry.

Varus is going to have to try really hard to unseat him.

[Math_Mage]

In spectator mode I'm like 60% sure that all gold bounties are merged. For example, if Galio Q's a back wave you, as the spectator, see Galio get like +70 gold.

All right. I'm just noting that, contra Toasty's remark, nothing seems to have been changed.

[Tergon]

I've always been in the camp that believes when people howl about new champs being OP, it's (usually) simply because those people are frustrated at being beaten and choose to say "OMG [insert new champ] so OP" than admit that they were legitimately beaten, or admit their own ignorance.
I mean, maybe you always play Tryndamere, or Lux, or whatever. And maybe you kick a whole bootful of ass with them and you have a fantastic grasp of how to use them. But knowing how your hero works is only half the battle, and the other half is knowing how to counter your enemy. So if I show up with a new champ that I've had a chance to practise with, but you've never seen before? I'm going to know exactly how to counter your Lux or Tryndamere. But you will not know how to counter my new champ. You'll have to guess that if he looks like a mage, you'd better stack MR, or that if he looks like a DPS, you'd better stack armour, or whatever. And since so many new builds lately are of the tricky sort, it's easy to get the guess wrong.

I agree that a few times champs have been legitimately OP, but I really do think that 90% of the time people just don't know how to counter a new champion yet, and they'd rather blame Riot for making a mistake than admit to their own.

[PEACH]

Uhh... what? There are very few "tricky" builds. Riot upfront tells you what each champion is designed to do, and the champ is almost always built that way. The only "tricky" build that's ever come up with a new champ within the past few months is Aspd Lulu, and that's because her AP scaling looks fairly low (it's really good scaling in terms of burst healing, but that's about it). Even then, you still build MR.

Legitimately, there are very, very few builds that involve making an obviously magic damage champion into physical, or vice versa.

As for the rest of it: Legitimately, most of the time a new champ is called out as OP, they usually are. I mean, there's always some "this champ sucks" and "this champ rocks" no matter who it is, but almost every time the community at large said that the new champ was too powerful or too weak, it was (roughly) true. Less so for too weak, because occasionally people had to figure out how to use the champ.

Since people aren't just playing *against* a champion, but also with/as the champion, the "they only complain when they lose, so they say the champ is overpowered" thing doesn't seem to pan out; you're just as likely to get people complaining that their ally was UP and useless, or that they were UP and couldn't do anything, or even that the games were ridiculous stomps and the new champ is OP in their hands. The majority tends to shift towards a "correct" opinion in the first couple of weeks.

[Istari]

Hey, it's a perfectly good item. It builds out of three individually good items, it upgrades them all in the combination for a mere 300g combine, and it's ludicrously slot-efficient because of it. The major problem, IMO, is that it's built for a champ design philosophy that Riot has since abandoned, and you no longer see a lot of AP ratios or a lot of mana use on the kinds of characters that the TriForce was designed for... so while the Sheen proc is excellent, the Sheen stats are often dead weight and result in paying ~1000 extra gold for stats many characters don't use.

(I would *love* an AD-focused item with the Sheen effect, or just have it attached to a generically useful stat like cooldown reduction.. maybe an alternate Brutalizer upgrade?)

Riot would never do anything like that for precisely the reasons you mention. Take a champion like Riven, or Vayne they would be extremely powerful with an item like that, the only thing that balances sheen right now is the dead stats for characters like that.

[ex cathedra]

Riot would never do anything like that for precisely the reasons you mention. Take a champion like Riven, or Vayne they would be extremely powerful with an item like that, the only thing that balances sheen right now is the dead stats for characters like that.

People seriously overstate the value of the sheen proc. It's one of two items with three or more sources of multiplicative AD scaling and Triforce offers tons of utility in the form of HP, movespeed, and the slow proc.

Vayne wouldn't build it anyways because it doesn't do as much damage as dedicated AD, attack speed, or crit items. The only thing she doesn't benefit from is the AP, anyways, and that's negligible. Riven doesn't build it not because of her lack of AP or Mana but because her passive replicates a Sheen proc that scales with bonus AD. Thus BT stacking on assassin riven.

[Eldariel]

Anivia with 5k Health & 400-500 AP OP:

Spoiler

Show

[toasty]

Hey, it's a perfectly good item. It builds out of three individually good items, it upgrades them all in the combination for a mere 300g combine, and it's ludicrously slot-efficient because of it. The major problem, IMO, is that it's built for a champ design philosophy that Riot has since abandoned, and you no longer see a lot of AP ratios or a lot of mana use on the kinds of characters that the TriForce was designed for... so while the Sheen proc is excellent, the Sheen stats are often dead weight and result in paying ~1000 extra gold for stats many characters don't use.

(I would *love* an AD-focused item with the Sheen effect, or just have it attached to a generically useful stat like cooldown reduction.. maybe an alternate Brutalizer upgrade?)

Its good on a few champions. Udyr, Alistair, GP, MAYBE J4, MAYBE Irelia, Jax, MAYBE (Hybrid/AD) Kennen, MAYBE Yi, MAYBE Nasus, AD Nidalee, Poppy, MAYBE Shen, MAYBE Shyvanna, Skarner, AD Sona (LOL), Trundle.

So thats... 8 Maybes, one of which is a strange nonstandard build. Of the heroes its good on, Udyr, Alistair, GP, Jax, Nid, Poppy, Skarner and Trundle, two of them almost never get triforce, and the others often have better builds. Basically, off of that list the only two I would buy Triforce every game is Nid and Poppy. Oh, and neither are particularly popular.

That's why I say Triforce is a ****ty item. Because, yes, in theory, its good on everyone, but why not buy something else? Why not get Wits End? Why not get Brutalizer? Why not get Frozen heart? There are so many better items with good stats that most Bruisers that build triforce, in my opinion, are wasting their money. Especially given that it doesn't give you many tank stats.

Uhh... what? There are very few "tricky" builds. Riot upfront tells you what each champion is designed to do, and the champ is almost always built that way. The only "tricky" build that's ever come up with a new champ within the past few months is Aspd Lulu, and that's because her AP scaling looks fairly low (it's really good scaling in terms of burst healing, but that's about it). Even then, you still build MR.

Legitimately, there are very, very few builds that involve making an obviously magic damage champion into physical, or vice versa.

Well there is AD Sona and AD Alistair. And Skarner is kinda a hybrid. But for the most part, yeah.

I mean, I admit, I've played this game a lot and I kinda initially understand how to build heroes and stuff, but I mean... mages need CDR/AP, AD carries need AD, Crit, Attackspeed, tanks need HP/Armor/MR . . . that's really all there is too the game.

As for the rest of it: Legitimately, most of the time a new champ is called out as OP, they usually are. I mean, there's always some "this champ sucks" and "this champ rocks" no matter who it is, but almost every time the community at large said that the new champ was too powerful or too weak, it was (roughly) true. Less so for too weak, because occasionally people had to figure out how to use the champ.

He speaks the truth. OP heroes tend to kill you a lot. Killing a lot generally means OP. For further reference: Release Xin Zhao. So dumb.

[ex cathedra]

So thats... 8 Maybes, one of which is a strange nonstandard build. Of the heroes its good on, Udyr, Alistair, GP, Jax, Nid, Poppy, Skarner and Trundle, two of them almost never get triforce, and the others often have better builds. Basically, off of that list the only two I would buy Triforce every game is Nid and Poppy. Oh, and neither are particularly popular.

That's why I say Triforce is a ****ty item.

It's not ubiquitous, and thus it's ****ty?

How does that make any sense at all? How often an item is built has literally no effect on its quality.

Champions who can generally build Triforce:
Jungle Alistar, Corki, Ezreal, bruiser Fizz, Gangplank, Hecarim, Irelia, Jarvan, Jax, Kayle, Lee Sin, Nasus, bruiser Nidalee, Poppy, Shaco, Skarner, Trundle, tiger Udyr, Wukong, Yorick.

Champions who can generally build Infinity Edge:
Ashe, Caitlyn, Corki, Ezreal, carry Fiora, carry Gangplank, Graves, AD Kayle, AD Kennen, Kog'Maw, carry Yi, Miss Fortune, Sivir, Tristana, Tryndamere, Vayne.

More champions can viably build Triforce than Infinity Edge. Triforce is thus the stronger item. Toasty logic OP.

[Eldariel]

I mean, I admit, I've played this game a lot and I kinda initially understand how to build heroes and stuff, but I mean... mages need CDR/AP, AD carries need AD, Crit, Attackspeed, tanks need HP/Armor/MR . . . that's really all there is too the game.

Well, there's also "DPS types need penetration", "sustained damage types need slows", "initiators need speed", "auras are good in certain comps", "flat penetration is a good specialization against certain comps", "assassins need burst", etc.

[ex cathedra]

Oh, a few other things. Attack Speed Lulu AFAIK isn't really a thing. Her AP scaling is too legitimate.

Also, Eld:
That bird is absurd.
Why swifties? What quints do you run?
What did you edit into/out of that post? Like, I saw the post, made a post of my own, then noticed that your post had been edited. But I don't know what changed.

[Eldariel]

Also, Eld:
That bird is absurd.
Why swifties? What quints do you run?

I run Flat AP Quints for early lane kills mostly (level 2 30 extra damage from 15 AP). Swifties 'cause it's the only real way to gain the Move Speed I want for both, fights and chases/escapes; Anivia is a ridiculously good kiter but 300 base Move Speed puts a damper on that (besides, Anivia's damage is high enough against squishies midgame that Sorcs are generally an overkill and against tanky people they really don't do all that much; Mercs and Tabi I occasionally like tho). Also, to catch people with Walls.

Ghost obviously serves the same purpose in a different way, as a Reverie you don't have to build. Running non-Meditation Utility or Defensive Masteries is really not an option and I prefer Flat AP Quints to Move Speed Quints on lane.


Oh, and I just built all health items for the funzies; obviously some armor woulda been better in that match-up. 15% damage reduction from Leviathan tho; try to find a Last Whisper for that

What did you edit into/out of that post? Like, I saw the post, made a post of my own, then noticed that your post had been edited. But I don't know what changed.

Switched to a better version of the post-game screenshot.

[ex cathedra]

Oh, and I just built all health items for the funzies; obviously some armor woulda been better in that match-up. 15% damage reduction from Leviathan tho; try to find a Last Whisper for that

I can see how the mobility would be useful on Anivia, at least.

Were you... were you taking true damage from Brand passive at 5k hp? Your team doesn't even have an Aegis.

Seems legit.

[LordShotGun]

Well, there's also "DPS types need penetration", "sustained damage types need slows", "initiators need speed", "auras are good in certain comps", "flat penetration is a good specialization against certain comps", "assassins need burst", etc.

While all that is very very true, it is also stuff that is only thought about in higher caliber/team games and then only on specific champions.

[Eldariel]

I can see how the mobility would be useful on Anivia, at least.

Were you... were you taking true damage from Brand passive at 5k hp? Your team doesn't even have an Aegis.

Seems legit.

Nono, Leviathan stacks still apply. Only 85% damage! That said, only Burst and Ulti actually hit me with Swiftness and Ghost I made it a hobby of mine to HPtank their base towers. Your ArPen! It does nothing (towers have what, 60% ArPen?)!

[SlyGuyMcFly]

So support Nunu is really fun. Mostly when you score doublekills in lane, go on to Rampage, and buy a RoA at 22 minutes. But it's not always that good. Sometimes it's just Killing Sprees and RoA at 28. But I've been thinking some and... RoA isn't really that good on him, is it? It's not like he needs the mana or passive so maybe Rylai's? Abbysal? What should my inventory look like if I'm support Nunu and ended a 30-minute game with 12k gold?

[Math_Mage]

So support Nunu is really fun. Mostly when you score doublekills in lane, go on to Rampage, and buy a RoA at 22 minutes. But it's not always that good. Sometimes it's just Killing Sprees and RoA at 28. But I've been thinking some and... RoA isn't really that good on him, is it? It's not like he needs the mana or passive so maybe Rylai's? Abbysal? What should my inventory look like if I'm support Nunu and ended a 30-minute game with 12k gold?

Abyssal on a support core seems solid. So something like HoG, Philo --> Shurelya's, Aegis, Abyssal, and wardswardswards.

[LordShotGun]

Idea for new information on the spectator mode. An icon and number for the number of dragon's and barons for each team.

[toasty]

It's not ubiquitous, and thus it's ****ty?
Champions who can generally build Triforce:
Jungle Alistar, Corki, Ezreal, bruiser Fizz, Gangplank, Hecarim, Irelia, Jarvan, Jax, Kayle, Lee Sin, Nasus, bruiser Nidalee, Poppy, Shaco, Skarner, Trundle, tiger Udyr, Wukong, Yorick.

If I played Jungle Alistair I would build Double gold/10, mobility boots, maybe aegis, probably shurelias, lots of oracles and wards, and then consider Triforce. Its highly likely I'd never build it. Corki+Ez: Its situational at best, honestly, building standard AD is probably better. Bruiser Fizz is dumb. Don't do it. Irelia and Jarvan are better off building other things. Like Fratmas. Like Wits End. Like Brutalizer (J4 at least). Lee Sin should never build Triforce, nor should Nasus. Shaco's itemization is weird anyways, but that's a valid one. Wukong is an assassin like Talon. I suggest a Last Whisper Rush, combined with wriggles and maybe a phage. Late game if you are very fed Triforce becomes an option, but such situations are rare, IMO. Yorick should never build Triforce. Sheen, yes, Triforce, no. You want damage? Manamune.

So... we are left with ten heroes that Triforce is always a good idea. Eight that is might be a good idea SOMETIMES. Versus 16 heroes that should build IE as core.

Also: We've had this argument before. The truth is that I don't, and never have, like Triforce. I don't like "jack of all trades, damage focused, bruiser focused, expensive," items. That is exactly what triforce is. I prefer mid-tier items with good damage so that I can be tanky as hell come late game. Stuff like Frozen heart, Sunfire Cape, Brutalizer, Frozen mallet, atmas, etc are my preferred items because they give you tanky and damage. On AD carries I don't like Triforce because it doesn't scale well into late game vs other AD carry items and AD carries only care about scaling into late game via damage, in my opinion. The except to this might be in a duel AD comp where you are running some strange tanky AD hero top. Something like... Mana Tank Corki. Which is weird, but possibly viable in certain comps.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Does anyone here have any insight on AD Kennen? My AD carry builds tend to change a lot based on game.

Also, is running him this way foolish and silly (like a grown man with his head in a bell), or can it compete with other AD's?

(The two games I've done it, we won lane hard, but lost because someone else on their team got fed and couldn't get focused down in teamfights.)

[Litewarior]

Just poking my head into the triforce discussion, I disagree on Nasus.

Nasus should not rush triforce, that's true. But it is core on him. Nasus's weakness is kiting, even with wither. Triforce gives him a MS bonus and a slow. He builds around his q which is an onhit ability, which means it benefits heavily from sheen proc. Mana is good for more q's. His e has a 1.2 ap scaling (or something like that). Damage and health are always nice. The only semiwasted stat is attack speed, and even then, he uses it with his lifesteal and attack damage steroid from his ultimate.

[Eldariel]

Does anyone here have any insight on AD Kennen? My AD carry builds tend to change a lot based on game.

Also, is running him this way foolish and silly (like a grown man with his head in a bell), or can it compete with other AD's?

(The two games I've done it, we won lane hard, but lost because someone else on their team got fed and couldn't get focused down in teamfights.)

AD Kennen is viable top and bot. He's the only viable manaless AD carry for what it's worth giving him pretty solid laning edge on some other ADs in that he can spam his harass infinitely. He converts part of his AD into magic damage with his steroid which is useful far as penetrating resistances goes. He's also very hard to gank and has multiple stuns, latter of which is an unique trait among AD carries.

So foolish or silly? No, he has a place. He is somewhat situational, granted. You really must be afraid of early laning since his strength is absolutely in how safe he is (he can actually 2v1 lane decently) so you should be making use of that or needing stuns if you're picking him (also note, his stuns aren't really instant; fastest you can execute is AA+Proc + Q + W which actually has some cast times; annoying against e.g. champs like Katarina). Of course, solo top is a different matter entirely. There, you just pick what wins the lane and if it's AD Kennen, go for it.