OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread

[Kaulguard]

Although you are not the first, nor will you be the last, to (quite appropriately) hypothesize what Roy's "player" might be doing, and what the "DM" of the "game" might be deciding. After all, if these are "characters" in a D&D game, it is logical to assume that there are "players" and a "Dungeon Master", even though there aren't. So. Pedantics aside, I think he really was using his KS: Architecture to counter Thog's Dungeoncrashing.

[Kish]

Although you are not the first, nor will you be the last, to (quite appropriately) hypothesize what Roy's "player" might be doing,

And, like all who have done so before you, you will be selling the character Roy Greenhilt short whenever you thus reduce his motivations for any given action to "a character who doesn't actually exist even in fantasy yanked on his strings."

[The Second]

Although you are not the first, nor will you be the last, to (quite appropriately) hypothesize what Roy's "player" might be doing, and what the "DM" of the "game" might be deciding. After all, if these are "characters" in a D&D game, it is logical to assume that there are "players" and a "Dungeon Master", even though there aren't. So. Pedantics aside, I think he really was using his KS: Architecture to counter Thog's Dungeoncrashing.

I don't agree with this at all. The characters in the Order of the stick are wholly independent of 'players'. Take the strip in which Roy and Celia have this conversation. They are speaking as actual people, not as 'puppets on a string'.

The laws of the OOTS universe work differently than those of our own: speaking is a free action, bloated dragon empresses can fly, and each and every person has his skill set, which may be used for unique solutions to extraordinary problems.

Believing this requires a little suspension of disbelief is all.

[ti'esar]

You know, now that I think about it, Roy actually succeeded at what he set out to do here - he proved that "Thog" wasn't Thog. Learning his real identity was really more of a secondary goal, since the Order doesn't have any idea that this isn't just some new flunky of Nale's.

[jonathan_sicari]

Very true.

[Nemeean_lion]

Not really... When Elan asks who he is, Roy says he "intends to find out" .

So he really only accomplished the "intend to prove it " half of his goal.

[Snails]

You know, now that I think about it, Roy actually succeeded at what he set out to do here - he proved that "Thog" wasn't Thog. Learning his real identity was really more of a secondary goal, since the Order doesn't have any idea that this isn't just some new flunky of Nale's.

Yup.

It is a hilarious gag, but it should take Haley all of 3 seconds to see through this thin subterfuge.

In the OotSverse, there is no particular shame in being a hired gun. The reason to wear a disguise is because (A) you are likely to be recognized and (B) there would be negative fallout for being identified.

'A' shrinks the list of candidates down to people the OotS has met already or are extremely likely to met soon. 'B' is vastly more selective.

The list of plausible candidates would fit on one hand. One in particular rises right to the top.

[REFLECT!]

while reading this thread (and a few before it) it occured to me that many people seem to dislike Nale based Arcs. Its as if they want the entirety of the story based around the main characters and Xykon, which really makes no sense! A story needs some fleshing out, especially a world D&D campaign based story, and Nale provides the majority of said flesh with side arcs. Good stories NEED Side arcs, and no matter how much some people (including Roy) despize filler arks, they are necessary to give some realness to an otherwise point A to point B campaign.

[ti'esar]

While "filler", like deus ex machina, is one of those terms that are routinely misused on here, I don't think that's really why so many people dislike Nale.

[Bulldog Psion]

while reading this thread (and a few before it) it occured to me that many people seem to dislike Nale based Arcs. Its as if they want the entirety of the story based around the main characters and Xykon, which really makes no sense! A story needs some fleshing out, especially a world D&D campaign based story, and Nale provides the majority of said flesh with side arcs. Good stories NEED Side arcs, and no matter how much some people (including Roy) despize filler arks, they are necessary to give some realness to an otherwise point A to point B campaign.

I think it's because he's boring and repetitive and uninteresting after the first couple of times, but YMMV. I mean, it's always the same thing -- Nale shows up, has the Order more or less dead to rights because, as usually, they're utterly incompetent and unprepared, then ends up being defeated anyway, but then escapes. It's a bit recursive after awhile.

I, with extensive reading of mythology, would characterize his endless futile but obnoxious reappearances as "Sisyphean".

[Math_Mage]

I think it's because he's boring and repetitive and uninteresting after the first couple of times, but YMMV. I mean, it's always the same thing -- Nale shows up, has the Order more or less dead to rights because, as usually, they're utterly incompetent and unprepared, then ends up being defeated anyway, but then escapes. It's a bit recursive after awhile.

I, with extensive reading of mythology, would characterize his endless futile but obnoxious reappearances as "Sisyphean".

While the vague outline is the same, everything else about each arc is so completely different in terms of what actually transpires that I don't find them repetitive at all.

[ti'esar]

The arcs aren't necessarily repetitive, but it does seem like Nale himself never really changes (though I think that, contrary to complaints, this latest arc seems to have actually broken that mold), so I can understand why that might bother people - he's the only truly static character of his prominence in the story.

[rbetieh]

The arcs aren't necessarily repetitive, but it does seem like Nale himself never really changes (though I think that, contrary to complaints, this latest arc seems to have actually broken that mold), so I can understand why that might bother people - he's the only truly static character of his prominence in the story.

Well, to me it seems like the Order has to fight Nale to get to Xykon....it would be hilarious to have the opposite happen once.

[Snails]

The arcs aren't necessarily repetitive, but it does seem like Nale himself never really changes (though I think that, contrary to complaints, this latest arc seems to have actually broken that mold), so I can understand why that might bother people - he's the only truly static character of his prominence in the story.

Well spoken.

At a superficial level the LG attacking the Order was stale bread. Nale is way past he peak in every important sense.

At a deeper level, we are seeing dividends. The LG ambush allowed both V and Belkar to reinforce their own growth trajectories. More importantly, it is no longer a Elan vs. Nale game, we are in the big leagues and it is Elan vs. Tarquin -- that Elan and Nale do not happen to realize it quite yet just makes it all the more amusing.

[Omergideon]

while reading this thread (and a few before it) it occured to me that many people seem to dislike Nale based Arcs. Its as if they want the entirety of the story based around the main characters and Xykon, which really makes no sense! A story needs some fleshing out, especially a world D&D campaign based story, and Nale provides the majority of said flesh with side arcs. Good stories NEED Side arcs, and no matter how much some people (including Roy) despize filler arks, they are necessary to give some realness to an otherwise point A to point B campaign.

There are 2 responses I could give here, one for me and another a bit "Devil's Advocatey". So lets start with the latter.

I think some people may dislike the majority of side stories being driven by the same character, and would think the world more fleshed out if a greater variety of side characters were used. Also, a direct and focused story can seem as real and interesting as one with lots of "fleshing out". Side arcs are not the be all and end all of the fleshing out process either, and small hints may work very well for this 2. Many goods and greats of literature only followed a tight narrative of the main characters (e.g. Dune, Foundationverse, Much of LoTR, Harry Potter etc), but still presented a well built and fleshed out world that was 3D in every way. They did this by peppering small fleshing outs and character bits into the main plots liberally, but never focusing on them for any noticable period of time. So whilst what you say can work, it is not the only thing that can work.

For myself, I like Nale as a character and always enjoyed his sub plots in the story. In this one I merely dislike-->hate Tarquin. And so I am not enjoying a story when he is prominent.

[Bulldog Psion]

Well spoken.

At a superficial level the LG attacking the Order was stale bread. Nale is way past he peak in every important sense.

At a deeper level, we are seeing dividends. The LG ambush allowed both V and Belkar to reinforce their own growth trajectories. More importantly, it is no longer a Elan vs. Nale game, we are in the big leagues and it is Elan vs. Tarquin -- that Elan and Nale do not happen to realize it quite yet just makes it all the more amusing.

Good point. You can now consider me officially amused at the story again -- it'll be kind of interesting to see what happens when Nale realizes he's become a truly secondary and rather trivial character in Tarquin and Elan's plotline. After all, the whole family is pretty genre savvy.

[Forikroder]

Good point. You can now consider me officially amused at the story again -- it'll be kind of interesting to see what happens when Nale realizes he's become a truly secondary and rather trivial character in Tarquin and Elan's plotline. After all, the whole family is pretty genre savvy.

the time Nalei figures otu hes not actually an important character will be on his death bed

[Gift Jeraff]

Of course Nalei isn't an important character--he's never even appeared in the strip.

Good point. You can now consider me officially amused at the story again -- it'll be kind of interesting to see what happens when Nale realizes he's become a truly secondary and rather trivial character in Tarquin and Elan's plotline. After all, the whole family is pretty genre savvy.

10 gold says Tarquin will be the one who realizes he's a secondary and trivial character.

[rbetieh]

Good point. You can now consider me officially amused at the story again -- it'll be kind of interesting to see what happens when Nale realizes he's become a truly secondary and rather trivial character in Tarquin and Elan's plotline. After all, the whole family is pretty genre savvy.

What I found funny, and I don't know if it was discussed at the time, is that Tarquin offered Elan the same deal that Xykon offered Roy and Elan took it. Maybe I should start a thread to compare that 3 major Evil/Good deals offered and what the handling of each situation shows about the character....

[Forikroder]

What I found funny, and I don't know if it was discussed at the time, is that Tarquin offered Elan the same deal that Xykon offered Roy and Elan took it. Maybe I should start a thread to compare that 3 major Evil/Good deals offered and what the handling of each situation shows about the character....

the scenarios are completely different, they leave Tarquin alone and he takes over a continent they leave Xykon alone and he gaines infinite power and takes over the entire world

plus tarquin doesnt get harder to deal with as time goes on unlike Xykon

[rbetieh]

the scenarios are completely different, they leave Tarquin alone and he takes over a continent they leave Xykon alone and he gaines infinite power and takes over the entire world

plus tarquin doesnt get harder to deal with as time goes on unlike Xykon

Neither statement seems factual. Neither are the scenarios "completely different" nor is Tarquin getting easier to "deal with".

If you leave these people alone a lot of people will suffer. Xykon accumulates power by gaining levels because thats how a sorceror gets stronger, Tarquin accumulates power by subjugating people and taking their magical trinkets. Both are growing in threat factor. Both have the potential to do a lot of damage. Both offered the same deal to a protagonist.

[Kish]

Neither statement seems factual. Neither are the scenarios "completely different" nor is Tarquin getting easier to "deal with".

If you leave these people alone a lot of people will suffer. Xykon accumulates power by gaining levels because thats how a sorceror gets stronger, Tarquin accumulates power by subjugating people and taking their magical trinkets. Both are growing in threat factor. Both have the potential to do a lot of damage. Both offered the same deal to a protagonist.

"Neither statement seems factual."

Tarquin is not a threat to the world on anywhere near the same level as Xykon, so while "Both have the potential to do a lot of damage" is technically true because "a lot" is so vague, "Both have the potential to do comparable amounts of damage" is utterly false. Xykon has subjugated lots of people and taken magical trinkets from many enemies, most notably Dorukan.

And Xykon offered a, "Stop hitting me with your sword in this fight which has thus far been at worst a draw from your perspective, because you know I'm higher level than you" deal to Roy. Tarquin's "offer" consisted of, "Since I have disarmed you and you have already lost the fight, I decree that we will now stop fighting"; Elan "accepted" it in that he did not attempt to headbutt Tarquin off the parapet instead of acknowledging that he had lost.

[rbetieh]

"Neither statement seems factual."

Tarquin is not a threat to the world on anywhere near the same level as Xykon, so while "Both have the potential to do a lot of damage" is technically true because "a lot" is so vague, "Both have the potential to do comparable amounts of damage" is utterly false. Xykon has subjugated lots of people and taken magical trinkets from many enemies, most notably Dorukan.

And Xykon offered a, "Stop hitting me with your sword in this fight which has thus far been at worst a draw from your perspective, because you know I'm higher level than you" deal to Roy. Tarquin's "offer" consisted of, "Since I have disarmed you and you have already lost the fight, I decree that we will now stop fighting"; Elan "accepted" it in that he did not attempt to headbutt Tarquin off the parapet instead of acknowledging that he had lost.

Pleas provide a list of people Xykon has Subjugated, then provide a list of people Tarquin has subjugated and compare. Fact is, the one that has affected the world more at this juncture is not Xykon at all. Xykon has a city, Tarquin has about half a continent. Numbers dont work out for you.

As for your other argument, since Elan had recovered his rapier and showed a willingness to continue fighting, your point holds as much value as an american three dollar bill.

[Kish]

Pleas provide a list of people Xykon has Subjugated, then provide a list of people Tarquin has subjugated and compare. Fact is, the one that has affected the world more at this juncture is not Xykon at all. Xykon has a city, Tarquin has about half a continent. Numbers dont work out for you.

I find it incredible that so many people on this board seriously believe that the subplot villain Rich brought in in the fifth book is meant to supplant or eclipse the main villain of the comic. And I do wonder how "Please don't make it hurt too much when you kill me" showed a willingness to continue fighting.

But, I certainly cannot prove that Tarquin is not the new main villain of the comic, and I will not attempt to argue the case because it feels way too much like I'm trying to argue the case that a lead brick is heavier than a standard goose feather. Time will tell.

[Math_Mage]

Jesus, the recent argument completely derailed the original point of rbetieh's post, which was to note the potential comparison of the three deals offered to Order members by major villains. I highly doubt rbetieh in any way meant to imply that Tarquin was becoming the main villain of the comic--that's a complete red herring and I frankly expect better from you, Kish.

And to Forikroder, just because the three scenarios aren't identical doesn't mean we can't compare them and draw conclusions. Tarquin did offer Elan the same deal that Xykon offered Roy, albeit under different circumstances, so nothing rbetieh said was incorrect. Certainly the deals are not "completely different"--rbetieh pointed out several areas of similarity, so I won't reiterate them.

[Kish]

Jesus, the recent argument completely derailed the original point of rbetieh's post, which was to note the potential comparison of the three deals offered to Order members by major villains. I highly doubt rbetieh in any way meant to imply that Tarquin was becoming the main villain of the comic--that's a complete red herring and I frankly expect better from you, Kish.

Oh well.

Looking at what Forikroder said, which rbetieh declared non-factual:

they leave Tarquin alone and he takes over a continent they leave Xykon alone and he gaines infinite power and takes over the entire world

Absolutely correct. Xykon is a global threat, Tarquin is not. If they leave Tarquin alone for the next five years he will make (could be major, could be incremental) progress toward consolidating his grip on the dystopia into which he is turning the continent he's on; battling him is unlikely to be appreciably harder then than it would be right now. If they leave Xykon alone for the next five years, Redcloak will complete the Plan and the Order--and most likely Tarquin as well--will cease to be relevant*.

plus tarquin doesnt get harder to deal with as time goes on unlike Xykon

The part of this that I could actually see arguing with, is the statement that Xykon is getting harder to deal with as time goes on short of his actually conquering the world.

This is not the part rbetieh chose to deny. (And "not getting harder"=/="getting easier.")

And, again, Tarquin defeated Elan and told him, after he acknowledged that Tarquin could kill him if he chose, that the battle was over. Xykon told Roy he should stop fighting in the middle of a battle which had, to all appearances, been favoring Roy thus far. If you expect better from me than to concur with Forikroder that the two situations are not terribly similar, well, in the words of Robin Williams, I'm sorry...I'd agree with you if you were right.

*Barring Rich doing some kind of "the Plan would always have resulted in the harmless-to-everyone-else destruction of Xykon and Redcloak, the Order has no need to be involved" reveal with whatever's going on with the Gates, which...well, I have faith he won't do that, but I certainly can't prove it.

[Math_Mage]

And, again, Tarquin defeated Elan and told him, after he acknowledged that Tarquin could kill him if he chose, that the battle was over. Xykon told Roy he should stop fighting in the middle of a battle which had, to all appearances, been favoring Roy thus far. If you expect better from me than to concur with Forikroder that the two situations are not terribly similar, well, in the words of Robin Williams, I'm sorry...I'd agree with you if you were right.

That's a nice way to shift the goalposts, but you and I both know that wasn't the issue with your post.

Meanwhile, since nobody has argued that the positions are "terribly similar", and since they don't have to be terribly similar to be comparable, that argument is also null. I mean, sure, it makes you look smarter to say "Oh, you can't possibly compare these situations because they're different in x, y, and z, ignoring that they're similar in a, b, and c...and also it's as ridiculous to argue with me about this completely unrelated w as to argue that a lead brick is heavier than a goose feather." But it's not exactly useful discussion.

See also: substituting "both have the potential to do comparable damage" for "both have the potential to do a lot of damage" to make your side of the argument more convenient.

The only substantive point you've brought up is that the apparent disparities between deal-offerer and protagonist are more apparent at the time of the deal in Tarquin's case than in Elan's. But you know what? It'd be more useful to incorporate that into the comparison and ask "Well, what would Elan have done if they had seemed more equally matched?" than to say "Jeez, stop trying to compare these totally different scenarios." Hell, rbetieh mentioned V's deal as well, and that's surely no less different from either of the other two deals than they are from each other.

So, y'know, if you want to argue for the sake of arguing, rather than discuss something potentially interesting, be my guest. Wait, you already did that.