General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

[imany]

Did you present to them the book text that shows how a Thrall can, when presented with stimuli, act against his master's best interests, and they rejected it?

No, it wasn't rejected, but the reasoning is unless you, the thrall, are severely mistreated you won't want to act against your regnant.

Despite the fact that Changeling P.C.s are the strong willed ones who escaped from the hold of an immensely powerful demi-god ?

That's what I thought, but apparently one go as someone's slave primes you for another. Even if you spent your whole durance trying to screw over your Keeper.

Well, some Changelings do want someone to be in control of them again. But not most, yes.

Of the two changelings left on the grid, neither of ours fit this bill in a typical manner.

I'm getting the impression it's just a vampire-centric game, or otherwise vampire-favoring. The other splats are guest stars.

It is starting to feel like that. The game started out with just V:tR, and the changeling st is sort of mia and has been for a month. That said, the changeling sphere kind of got screwed over by another changeling who went rogue and kidnapped a vampire thrall during a ceasefire. (He's dead now, my character got knocked out and bound as a result of that.)

I don't really suggest this (too much passive aggressive drama) but you can play it to the hilt. Your master implies that they're hungry? Go kidnap a high profile blood bag, perhaps one that belongs to a powerful Vampire (only the best for your Master). They implies that someone else is attractive? Murder them with extreme predjuice (Only you're good enough for your Master). So on and so forth.

Snerk. I might do this, but I'm not confident in my build. She's a wyrd 4 snowskin+di-cang summer 5 elemental with weaponry 5 but average stats. I don't think I could take most vampire pcs in the game 1 on 1 on account of them having been around a long time. Also I think it'd kill my clarity, wouldn't it?

[The Random NPC]

I'm not sure, I've never played Changeling, if you do decide to go this route, hopefully the others can help you bring it to fruition. Good luck.

[Sith_Happens]

No, it wasn't rejected, but the reasoning is unless you, the thrall, are severely mistreated you won't want to act against your regnant.

Like I said, you're a changeling. "Blood bonded" is like the definition of "mistreated" for you.

Snerk. I might do this, but I'm not confident in my build. She's a wyrd 4 snowskin+di-cang summer 5 elemental with weaponry 5 but average stats. I don't think I could take most vampire pcs in the game 1 on 1 on account of them having been around a long time. Also I think it'd kill my clarity, wouldn't it?

don't think I could take most vampire pcs in the game 1 on 1

summer 5

Four words: The Lord's Dread Gaze.

[Turalisj]

So with Mummy out soon(tm), does anyone have any plans or interest in running a game of Mummy online?

[imany]

Like I said, you're a changeling. "Blood bonded" is like the definition of "mistreated" for you.

Yeah but apparently I like this mistreatment :/ basically the ruling is this:

"It stands to mention that once a bond is formed, however, the Lost are almost /flawless/ candidates for it. They are mentally conditioned to be slaves. Every last one of them. Yep, they broke out, but that doesn't unmake an entire Durance of submission-for-survival. Coming up with an IC reason to resist a Domitor that doesn't overtly and repeatedly mistreat them is probably not going to happen, and we're not removing that aspect of the Vinculum from existence so Changelings can roll to resist whenever they're so inclined OOCly."

Four words: The Lord's Dread Gaze.

I don't have any eternal summer contracts, all of mine are punishing summer (4) >.< 60* xp... I dunno...

*I can do math...

[Sith_Happens]

Yeah but apparently I like this mistreatment :/ basically the ruling is this:

"It stands to mention that once a bond is formed, however, the Lost are almost /flawless/ candidates for it. They are mentally conditioned to be slaves. Every last one of them. Yep, they broke out, but that doesn't unmake an entire Durance of submission-for-survival. Coming up with an IC reason to resist a Domitor that doesn't overtly and repeatedly mistreat them is probably not going to happen, and we're not removing that aspect of the Vinculum from existence so Changelings can roll to resist whenever they're so inclined OOCly."

Yeah, it's been a while since I've looked at the Changeling core book, but I'm pretty sure the above is contradicted by about 20% of its word count.

I don't have any eternal summer contracts, all of mine are punishing summer (4) >.< 60* xp... I dunno...

*I can do math...

Well that's a shame. Cloak of Elements (fire), on the other hand, is a much more reasonable 12 xp and should still keep most vampires from messing with you.

Working with what you have, finding an excuse to use Crown of Clashing Fire anywhere near your regnant should end up with him being reluctant to have you around any more. Your first course of action, of course, will be to desperately try to win back his graces by any means you can, but if he keeps rebuffing you then you might decide to turn to a (Resolve + Composure - 3) roll and a certain Hedge fruit to ease your pain...

[WitchSlayer]

So with Mummy out soon(tm), does anyone have any plans or interest in running a game of Mummy online?

I'm in a skype group and one of our GMs has a multicampaign spanning WoD story going, Mummy is the next one so I'm going to be in that. Really really looking forward to it.

[SiuiS]

Also keep in mind that you're a changeling, with all the baggage that entails. I imagine the typical response to finding out that a vampire has been f***ing with your mind and emotions like that would be something along the lines of "spend EVERY Willpower until you've gotten yourself unbonded, then help the bastard get a nice tan," regardless of how much you otherwise "love" him.

...Or, for a more interesting tact roleplaying-wise, it might turn out once you have your free will back that your infatuation with him wasn't entirely due to the blood bond, forcing you to weigh your feelings against your 'Nam Durance flashbacks. Just make sure you get him Pledged to not do it again.

Maledictions.

Trick said Vampire into saying something like "I would rather die" to something, an before anyone else has time for a word say "You got it." bam! Vampire has now made a single-sided pledge to either accomplish something or be destroyed. Finding out that every honey-tongued lie is a single nod from you away from beig a magically binding oath will either prompt them to play carefully, or let you go.

Well, some Changelings do want someone to be in control of them again. But not most, yes.

Snerk. I might do this, but I'm not confident in my build. She's a wyrd 4 snowskin+di-cang summer 5 elemental with weaponry 5 but average stats. I don't think I could take most vampire pcs in the game 1 on 1 on account of them having been around a long time. Also I think it'd kill my clarity, wouldn't it?

Can't you literally shoot Sunshine Eye Lasers?
Let's back up a step though. World of Darkness is a cooperative Storytelling system. That you feel railroaded and bullied with nothing but flimsy justification is important. That you aren't quite having fun is an issue. These are not problems to be sucked up and soldiered through – you signed up to role play and have fun. Your role is being dictated for you and you aren't having fun. The vampire thing is removing the whole reason for you to be there! I would suggest sitting down with the STs and having an honest talk. Try to convince them it's not about precedent, or about wanting special treatment, or about how you're spurned so you are trying to appeal to the rules. And if that fails, you could ask to put the character on hold, maybe as an STcharacter, until the changeling storyteller comes back. See if you could make a character in the meantime.

[The Glyphstone]

I don't remember, can you get tricked into swearing a Changeling Oath?

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Yeah, you can get tricked that way. The Wyrd can do it on its own, or a Changeling can bind your word as an Oath. Something like, "I'm going to kill him, or die trying!" suddenly becomes a very dangerous thing to say around a Changeling, because they can hold you to that, and the Wyrd will finish the job if you don't.

[comicshorse]

. Also I think it'd kill my clarity, wouldn't it?

Yes it would

[Chen]

The real problem with blood bonds is that they aren't really meant for PCs. They are supposed to completely warp and change someone's personality. All these thoughts of revenge and the like are generally removed. A bonded servant should likely be role-played in a manner that they treat their domitor as their best friend. They can disagree with them, have arguments and whatnot, but they are your friend. They're more than your friend, you want to things to please them. Its not a contract, you can't weasel you're way out with technicalities and its not like they're using dominate to MAKE you do things. They'd ask you to do something and you would WANT to do it in a way that makes them happy. Its how you're supposed to feel. By all the fluff that they write in these books, being blood bonded is AWFUL. The fact they made them so difficult to remove doesn't help when its player on player blood bonding.

The only thing to make it somewhat more balanced might be to allow spending a willpower to ignore the bond for a short while (less than a scene but more than round). Something like this would allow you to say communicate with someone who knew about the object that you could use to break the bond. You could then spend another willpower later to use said object. This seems reasonable and would only work because you say there is some easy magical way of breaking the bond. Normally this modification wouldn't help since breaking the bond generally means not being around/hearing the person for a LONG time.

Another more drastic alternative is to just abandon the character and make a new one. If the ST is saying you are so completely taken over by the bond, its easy to argue this is no longer the character you wanted to or are capable of playing. I mean the vampire could easily just have killed you when you were unconscious anyway, both ways they basically removed you from the game in a way you want to play.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Another more drastic alternative is to just abandon the character and make a new one. If the ST is saying you are so completely taken over by the bond, its easy to argue this is no longer the character you wanted to or are capable of playing. I mean the vampire could easily just have killed you when you were unconscious anyway, both ways they basically removed you from the game in a way you want to play.

Honestly, this is what I would do at this point. It seems very clear to me that your current ST isn't interested in any of the other splats, or at least not enough to try to work them in in a fair way. He likes his vampires, and everyone else is a guest on their stage. All of this has already been said, of course, but it bears repeating. His analysis of changelings is laughably inaccurate, he's modified the way the vinculum works to allow it to affect other supers, and he's refusing to compromise or allow you to find a way out of it, despite the fact that you're clearly not having fun. This is not worth it, if you ask me.

[imany]

Yeah, I tried tossing out the "vinculum isn't supposed to be used to solve supernatural problems" argument, and it sort of just bounced.

I understand why, I mean, we've spent a few weeks RPing this, aside from the actual fight scene taking like four days to finish due to everyone's schedules. Basically it's been established already and we can't get rid of it. I really wish I'd looked into V:tR earlier to know the rules (I've never played a vampire, and at this point am kind of irate about the class, heh heh) but what's done is done.

This sucks, here's my reasoning why, read if you're curious, probably boring if you aren't:

Spoiler

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I think it gives the vampire sphere a seriously unfair advantage-- in our game the NPC vampires number more than a hundred in our setting (at least that's the IC number I've been given), have an active ST-played prince and other primogens, and the PC vampires are, like I've said, super strong. Like 15+14 dual attack pools with defense accounted for strong. The werewolf faction is new to our game and has no established territory yet, and the changeling faction is in complete disarray due to a previous plot where the freehold leaders were all assassinated, except summer's, who turned out to be a backstabbing loyalist. Basically if vinculum is ruled as usable on supers there's absolutely nothing stopping the vampires from doing it to everyone they find out about, except player restraint. (Which they ARE showing-- I have nothing against the vampire players in this game, I just think the rule isn't very reasonable.)

And that is what I said, in a public forum, which basically upset all the vampire players. To be fair, they feel like vinculum was the only option to the problem presented that didn't wipe out the whole changeling sphere. I myself oocly accepted the blood bond as an alternative to being killed. The mechanics consideration came into play after I read V:tR and realized it shouldn't have been used on a super.

How this all happened in our game, read if you're curious, probably boring if you aren't:

Spoiler

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The whole situation is kind of crappy, because the changeling sphere really got screwed over by one of our own players being an idiot. Basically, he played a spring courtier, ensorcelled pretty much all the mortals in the game on sight, which led to the vampires sort of finding out what was going on with the changelings, and then when we had our first altercation with the vampires (the other current remaining changeling was kidnapped and bound, after which there was a ceasefire declared) he went off and kidnapped a second sight thrall bound to the top combat vampire in our game. Who of course ran off into the hedge because he told her she couldn't leave his hollow. My character got called in after that to clean up the mess, and she was pretty close to killing this changeling but figured she had to rescue the thrall (which she did, from a hob who was trying to drag her off) and talk with her before dealing with the other changeling (which she didn't, because we got caught by the vampires on the way out.)

Basically, vinculum was the only solution for dealing with my character besides death (she was into aggravated damage in the second round, oh and the vampires were all making their frenzy rolls for cloak of the elements fire), and my character was the only one remaining who wasn't bound. We have a few other changeling characters on the grid who aren't, but they're at this point inactive.

I like my character, and I don't want to just give up on her. I've tried arguing that supernaturals should be allowed to break the bond with more ease than mortals, which resulted in the wyrd 5+ (probably meaning 6+) rule being suggested by the ST side. And I'm okay with that. I'm not happy about it, but I'm okay with it. Third party options like hedge fruit are still in play, but at this point I'm rather dubious about whether or not they're going to work, even after what we have to do to find them, and probably not being able to consume them ourselves. (Was ruled the STs would deal with such on a case by case basis.)

Contract wise, my character has: Elements 5 - Di-Cang, Elements 2 - Fire, Punishing Summer 4, and Stone 1. I did pick fire contracts after being told in game that I'd need them vs. vampires, but in retrospect spending the first round of combat to burst into flames wasn't worth it due to their frenzy dice pools being high enough to beat it reliably. Battle Bright (emit false sunlight, cuts dice pools in half if not resisted) may have worked on chance due to it only being vs. 1 dice pool for everyone, but it would have affected allies too and I wouldn't have been able to move. They had iron weapons, which rendered Smoldergrip useless.

I like the pace of the game, I like the people in the game, and I enjoy playing it. The guy who has my character bound is being very nice to her, possibly on account of knowing I'm not very happy with the situation oocly and also because his character is actually pretty cool. I just dislike the fact that going up against this faction basically results in automatic loss -- even if you do it indirectly or try to approach them with diplomacy (that was how the first changeling got captured/bound originally). Everyone is acting how their characters would with this rule in place.

Basically, I'd like to figure out how to beat it even with it in place. If it's impossible then I'll give up and maybe reroll or find another game.

So I guess by changeling pledges you mean curses? For some reason I thought that only applied to changelings, but looking at them I see they don't. The problem here is that our game moves at a real time (except that it's always night time, basically) and some of these have durations of decades... but! That does open up more options for me than being an insane stalker girlfriend does >.< I guess it gives me reason to put points in persuasion.

[The Random NPC]

If all you're worried about is the mechanics, (it doesn't sound like you are, but if) then instead of a bloodbond, pretend you were forced to make a pledge exactly like a bloodbond.

[imany]

My feeling is that mechanics are a means to an end for creating an enjoyable game. I think I can still play and have fun, I'd just also like to know there will be a chance for me to feasibly and non-suicidally strike back later.

[Selrahc]

Yeah, you can get tricked that way. The Wyrd can do it on its own, or a Changeling can bind your word as an Oath. Something like, "I'm going to kill him, or die trying!" suddenly becomes a very dangerous thing to say around a Changeling, because they can hold you to that, and the Wyrd will finish the job if you don't.

What... no?

Ahem.

C:tL pp.176 "Step 8: The terms of the pledge are described to all parties, and all agree, paying the necessary invocation cost. The wyrd settles the pledge into the fate of all parties and the pledge is sealed."

Cognizance is necessary. You can't spring it on people like that. They don't have to *believe* the pledge will actually come true, but they need to know what the terms are and agree to them. A mortal might swear a pledge with an odd faerie unknowing that it will be enforced by destiny itself. An ignorant vampire might do the same. One who knows about pledges won't.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Okay, so you overhear them say the aforementioned, "I'm going to do X, or die trying," ask them if they mean that, and when they agree, you seal the pledge. Or get someone who's better at pledgecraft than me to do it, but the point is, you can trap people in pledges; it just requires some creative wording to fulfill the requirement of explaining the terms to all parties.

[imany]

Actually, it seems like they don't have to be aware. Dancers in the Dusk 74-75 goes over it.

Changelings can use their connection with the Wyrd to
turn any agreement into a pledge. From a formal promise (“I
swear, I will never tell you a lie”) to a casual agreement (“Sure,
I’ll pick you up at the airport”), any commitment that is recognized
by the Wyrd, through one or more parties involved in it
having the Wyrd advantage, can be forged into a pledge. All it
takes is the application of Willpower by someone involved.

Dice Pool: Manipulation + Persuasion + Wyrd vs. the
target’s Resolve + Occult + Wyrd
Action: Instant (costs 1 Willpower to initiate the roll
which is then used to fuel the pledge or wasted)

But........

Note: Using this method to trick or force a supernatural
into a pledge is a level 5 Clarity sin. At the Storyteller’s discretion,
exceptionally dangerous, restrictive or long-lasting
pledges may be level 4, 3 or even 2 Clarity sins, depending
on how closely the Lost’s behavior and demands resemble
the means and methods utilized by the Others. Forcing a
mundane human (who are inherently more vulnerable to
such predations) is automatically one step lower Clarity sin
(thus a minimum of level 4). Trapping defenseless humans
into unwitting pledges is the purview of the True Fae.

[The Glyphstone]

My cynical side (the big side) suggests that if this is brought up, Vampires will be given a special exception to the rule, or the blood-bond love means you would never put your regnant into a pledge unwittingly.

[123456789blaaa]

It appears that a new discussion has popped up in the thread while I was procrastinating on my reply. I'll just slide in smoothly and...

You acquire the legacy at the mercy of your master. Who is scelestus. And can deny you training.

You could certainly create your own legacy instead, even so far as copying this one and filing off the abyssal serial numbers, but the assumption is rather implicit that you are scelestus, trained by scelestus and subservient to the abyss.

Er, the post I was replying too was talking about the corruption of the Legacy member mind due to the gulmoth body parts. Not anything to do with training. Did you reply to the wrong part of my post?

Anyways, you have a valid point. I don't think it's as cut and dry as you say though and offer these possibilities as evidence:

You could find a daimonomicon. The book says that

a benevolent teacher occasionally creates a daimonomicon to ensure her Legacy's survival, but its far more common for Scelesti and other Left-Handed to proselytize through the medium

Now daimonomicons are rare but I don't see why finding one is harder than finding the member of a forbidden Legacy who's attainments almost require them to hide from people. The book also says

Regardless of Legacy, the Mysterium consigns almost every daimonomicon to the Censorium. This honours the rights of the respectable Legacy teachers (who usually frown upon anyone learning the Legacy outside of the student-teacher bond) and bars mages from the lure of tainted power. Censorship isn't totally foolproof, though, and mystagogues have secretly learned forbidden Attainments before.

I think that raises the likelyhood a bit.

You could also hide your lack of devotion to the Abyss long enough to get training, than either part ways or murder your master once you've finished to prevent him from expoiting the connection he has with you (though this method comes with the downside of him ordering you to do nasty things before you've finished). I'm not sure if you can force someone to train you with mind control magic but if you can than that's also an option.

There's also the fact that you master may not be Scelestus. Perhaps he's like you and joined the Legacy out of practicality.

The abyss is just bad. It's not misunderstood, it's not just a different viewpoint. It's as close as the writers were comfortable with saying "Okay, guys, we know you like ambiguous morals and stuff, but the abyss is bad. we know that subjective morality doesn't allow for something to just be bad, but even so the abyss is bad." the entire point is that nothing good can come from the abyss, and those who try are signing up for tragedy – that is not a bad thing, as the storytelling system puts less emphasis on winning and more on fun and drama, but you're still telling the ST that if someone has to go crazy and murder people to further the plot, it's you.

The abyss ha properties of an entity, but those who treat it as an entity fail because it's not an entity. The abyss has properties of [X], and those who try to game the system because they understand [X] tragically fail, always. [X] can be; a place, an energy, a plane, a corruption, a contagion, radiation, a god form, a point of view, a mindset, a Supernal realm, a void, it doesn't matter. There is no succeeding via the abyss.

You can certainly change that, but it's pretty clear that if you can't quite conceptualise the abyss, that's okay, an if you can it's a trap run away screaming.

Could I get a quote from the writers? Because otherwise I strongly disagree with you (again, all my thoughts are my impression. I'm totally open to being proven wrong).

The Abyss is not good. The Abyss is not evil either. The Abyss is nonsense. It's meaningless personified.

If you want pure evil you're much better off looking at the demons from Inferno.

Here are a few quotes from a few different people which say what I want to say much better than I can:

Spoiler

Show

Strictly speaking, there's a really basic reason why the Abyss manifests in universally horrifying and destructive forms (albeit with the potential for these things to be conveyed in subtle or unexpected ways):

It's written around being an antagonistic element in a roleplaying game.

Consequentially, the particulars of its brand of paradoxical, nihilistic, insane chaos are calibrated in a manner that ensures that the wordly manifestations of it are antagonistic, even if only because a nursery rhyme from the mouth of a child that should not exist causes damage simply because the underpinnings of its origin and nature are incompatible with terrestrial reality in a manner that might not be readily apparent to cursory observation*, although human perceptions may contextualise the thing such that its transgressive nature is conveyed through symbols of transgression that make sense to humans.

* I'd say it's kind of how it isn't readily apparent why a certain wind might cause a bridge to snap in half, even when analysis of wave patterns and understanding of how resonance affects tension make it apparent that the wind was occuring in a manner that could only destroy the bridge.

I'd say it can be parsed from an in-character perspective like this:

If you looked at the whole of the Abyss, it would come across as incomprehensable and inconsistant in its twisted, meaningless insanity.

Any given entity of or intruder from the Abyss can't quite convey the full reality of that, because the cracks in the world that the Abyss slips through* aren't big enough; you only get small fragments.

The nature of the world means that these fragments manifest in ways that cursory observation correlates to things that naturally exist in the world, because they're the closest metaphysical analogue to what those things were in the Abyss.

An Abyssal book wasn't really a book in its home, but the concept of book is the closest metaphysical category of things that are that the world can fit it into, so it appropriates the form of a book.

But there's a discordant element; it isn't actually a book, so it metaphysically grates against the universe which experiences something of a software error everytime it tries to run this thing like a book when it lacks certain qualities (and has a few others).

And the "book" itself is lacking certain components from back where it came from, causing it to try and twist and writhe around inside its new universe, making sense of itself and what it's missing and trying to find replacements and make the surrounding world fit more into what it is.

Which the world cannot do, because the world runs according to certain coherant principles, whereas the native world of the book did not, and the world starts tearing at the strain.

And the metaphysical principles of the world and senses of its inhabitants conceptualise all of this phenomena as the world causing horrifying damage to minds and souls and bodies and objects surrounding the book.

* These cracks generally being conveyed in the form of things that are generally considered horrifyingly transgressive, because they're the closest thing in our world to what goes on in the twisted senselessness of the Abyss.

I'm not disputing that the abyss in general is really really bad. I'm asking why their can't be exceptions.

There probably are. I mean paradox manifestations and anomalies could potentially be fairly harmless (in an immediate sense). An upside down rainbow is certainly curious, but not necessarily much of a threat.

Indeed, I think you're confusing two kinds of 'bad' here. What we generally mean with the Abyss is 'unnatural' not necessarily 'malevolent'. For example, the Nemesis continuum isn't malevolent, it doesn't (appear to) have an agenda. It's simply that it's incompatible with the world as it is.

The underlying problem is the build up of unnatural events. An upside rainbow is ok... but then maybe the gravity in your sanctum inverts... ok, that's very annoying but you can live with it... then the doors in your sanctum start opening into the wrong rooms... determined at random... ok, that's even more irritating but with some time and luck you can work around this... then one day you can't find your way out your sanctum and are stranded in your abyssal house forever...

Nothing there was actively malevolent, just counter-intuitive and unnatural problems building up till they become actively dangerous.

I think that the best way to explain the Abyss is in terms of signals/sounds.

Imagine the Phenomenal and the Supernal as being coherent sounds, perhaps even great symphonies. Or, perhaps, the Supernal could be the singers, instruments and orchestras, while the Phenomenal is the music they play.

In that view, the Abyss would not be silence - it'd be random noise*.

If you listen to randomness for long enough, you can eventually find virtually anything within it. This is commonly expressed as the idea that if you had a nigh-infinite number of monkeys bashing on typewriters for nigh-infinite time, you'd eventually find that one monkey created the completed works of Shakespeare.

So, I think it's best to view the intruders is in terms of that one-in-a-Graham's Number patches of coherency within the Abyss, the small bits and pieces of it where the random noise seems to have some kind of meaning or order to it, while the whole remains nonsense.

Now, random noise can eventually contain anything, so why not nice things? Even if there are nice things in the Abyss, they probably realize that if they entered the Phenomenal, the reality compiler would start spitting out a whole bunch of errors, so they would avoid it. That's just the way it is, enough random noise will almost certainly ruin any kind of music you want to make. On the other hand, if you had Abyssal beings who were not only nice but who did not poison the Phenomenal then... Well, they would probably be indistinguishable from Phenomenal natives in the first place, so it'd be very difficult to confirm their origin was the Abyss in the first place.

In short, the only beings that mages will encounter are the sorts of beings who don't care if their existence within the Phenomenal poisons it. Ie. beings that are not nice. The only kind of beings they will encounter are the beings who also happen to be coherent enough to be able to live within/interact with the Phenomenal in the first place.

* Incidentally, why is it good for the Abyss to be thought of in terms of the reality equivalent of random noise? Because that's the only kind of reality that would actually be incomprehensible to the scientific method.

TL;DR: The Abyss is bad for the Fallen World but it isn't actually evil.

...

It occurs to me that if that's what you meant all along than I've just gotten all these quotes for nothing...ah screw it.

Also, I disagree with you interpretation that every time you deal with the Abyss it ends in horrible tradgedy. All the times people get screwed over when dealing with the Abyss is not really just the Abyss's thing. It's simply an extension of the game's theme of "Hubris is bad".

Everytime you cast a spell as an Archmaster there's a chance that things will go horribly horribly wrong. You can not only screw over yourself but also billions of people around the world. I think you can make a strong case that casting Imperial spells is an extreme act of Hubris. Does this mean we should never cast Imperial spells? IMO no it does not.

Using the Abyss is like using a strong acid (not the drug, the chemical compound that, when dissolved in water, gives a solution with a pH less than 7.0) IMO. It is inherently dangerous and corrosive but that doesn't mean we shouldn't ever use it.

They could, actually. The idea would then be whether or not the Gilmore had negative impacts just from existing. The Gilmore could be likened to antimatter, where it doesn't matter if it wants to be anathema, it just is.

Or it could be perfectly fine, since the abyss has infinite variety. perhaps the Gulmoth's name is Charles, and it bonds with you to escape the crapsack world it lives in? Of course, someone will eventually notice and you'll he hunted from consillium to consillium, accidentally wreaking havoc. In which case it's up to you whether that's coincidental or if it's an abyssal function; how far out, abstractly, can the abyss reach?

Plus you're replacing organs with sentient cancer and hoping for the best.

Gilmore?

The Gulmoth Legion replaces body parts with are explicitly not corrosive to reality just by existing. The book does not say anything of that sort.

I also don't think it's a sure thing that you'll go around wreaking havoc accidentally. Simply covering yourself (whether magically or normally) and moving around a lot should be enough to protect you from discovery. This also fits perfectly if you're an Abyss hunter Legion member.

I think you meant sapient instead of sentient cancer?

Also, I assume you're trying to evoke a certain feeling when you call it cancer? Legions body parts aren't really like cancer at all.

Humans are a pretty diverse bunch, but if space-cattle started working against planet earth (or more accurately, out plane of existence) after an agreement to use human supplies to further or at least not oppose earth/existence, then humans woul probably be pretty pissed off.

Heck, "The pentacle wants to blow up reality for the arcane Xp, but me, I like reality. I live there." is one of the bigger recruitment hooks for the Seers of the Throne. So we have in-universe proof that works.

The problem I have with this line of reasoning is that you're applying human motives to being from a corrosive paradoxical incomprehensible anti-reality.

Now it's true that many intruders seem kind of humanlike in their thoughts. Your line of reasoning could concievably apply to many of them. I do not think Legions gulmoth are those intruders.

For one it's unclear how smart the body part gulmoth even are. The Legacy writeup describes them as the "least" of the gulmoth. Maybe they have intelligence on the level of insects and can't tell the difference between murdering a pentacle mage and murdering another intruder.

How would a single Legion mage destroy the Abyss anyways? He can't by just fighting Intruders. I think it's perfectly plausible for one gulmoth to not care if you beat up another one (particularly if you helped the first). After all, would the somalis care if you gave them food and water and then went and beat up some americans?

Why would the Legion gulmoth even care if you destroyed the Abyss? After all, it attached itself to you didn't it? If space-cattle destroyed earth life would suck for the humans still on it but the humans in the space-cattle spaceship (who went their on their own) wouldn't be effected much.

Unrelated, I love your avatar and user name. Thank you for that~

[Selrahc]

Actually, it seems like they don't have to be aware. Dancers in the Dusk 74-75 goes over it.

Honestly, that sounds like they've just changed things. To a sillier form. I mean that's one step away from going "person who pledges to serve me forever on pain of death says what" "What?" "Thanks. Chump."

[Lady Serpentine]

Of the two changelings left on the grid, neither of ours fit this bill in a typical manner.

That's what I figured, yeah. As noted, it's rare - most of that type didn't leave in the first place, for one thing - but I did want to point out that, in the general case, it's not impossible.

By the way, did you get what I sent you about that Winter Court person I was thinking of making? The game I was considering her for seems to have died, but she still seems like she'd be fun to play, so if you'd be up for helping me flesh her out, that would be lovely...

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Honestly, that sounds like they've just changed things. To a sillier form. I mean that's one step away from going "person who pledges to serve me forever on pain of death says what" "What?" "Thanks. Chump."

Well, it's nothing more than the Wyrd can already do on its own. This is just giving it a system for actual use in play. Besides, the Wyrd is balanced about these things. If you bound someone into a pledge this way, they'd still get some kind of boon for their trouble.

[Lady Serpentine]

Whoops, forgot to write this before...

If you have any unbound-but-active Changelings on the grid, you could have one of them go to the vampires and say something along the lines of "Those of us here are less powerful than you are. We admit that. But the freeholds here that blew up on themselves aren't the only ones in existence. Knock it off, or we'll hedgewalk over a few cities and get some help.

Sure, it may not be their problem directly, but we all take being made into slaves, even well-treated ones, seriously, so do you really want to risk that?"

Theoretically, that should make them back off. And if not, well, fine, then, you can do exactly what you said.

[Hullu_Iivana]

Well, it's nothing more than the Wyrd can already do on its own. This is just giving it a system for actual use in play. Besides, the Wyrd is balanced about these things. If you bound someone into a pledge this way, they'd still get some kind of boon for their trouble.

Yeah, "balanced". The boon doesn't need to be useful in any way, and if you've, for example, bound someone to a practically impossible task with death as sanction, you can give them utterly useless skills bonuses and merits. Slightly higher Expression, Science and Animal Ken and Multi-Lingual merit aren't too useful when you're trying to catch and kill changeling who's gone to his Hollow and you got one day to do it.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Actually, you don't get to choose the boon. In the case of a pledge between fully-aware parties, all parties choose their own boon. In the case of a pledge like this, the Wyrd assigns a boon, which in this case would mean either the ST assigning a relevant boon for the task in question, or the player who got tricked getting to pick his own boon.

[The Random NPC]

Actually, you don't get to choose the boon. In the case of a pledge between fully-aware parties, all parties choose their own boon. In the case of a pledge like this, the Wyrd assigns a boon, which in this case would mean either the ST assigning a relevant boon for the task in question, or the player who got tricked getting to pick his own boon.

Does more challenging tasks grant correspondingly better boons? Also, how long do those boons last?

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Boons last for the duration of the pledge. And yes, a more challenging task grants a proportionally greater boon. Basically, you have four parts of a pledge: task, boon, sanction, and duration. Each has a rating, either positive or negative, depending on difficulty/severity/length/benefit/etc. When all parts of a pledge are added together, they must come out to be zero. So a highly difficult task might have a rating of -3, while a 5-dot merit (for a mortal) has a value of +3 as a boon. Add in a duration of, say, one year and a day (+3, I believe), and a sanction valued at -3 (say, poisoning of boon), and all of them add up to zero: 3 (Greater Boon: Resources 5) - 3 (Sufficiently difficult task of your choice) + 3 (Duration: Year and a Day) - 3 (Greater Sanction: Poisoning of Boon) = 0. Now you have a valid pledge. Obviously, not everything is going to be valued at +/-3; the values range from -3 to +3, and can be 0 in some cases. The point is, yes, boons can be pretty darn good. It's part of what makes changelings so powerful. "Oh, what's that? You want a new 3-dot merit? Here, just swear this pledge with me, because I've also got some merit I want." Now you both have a new merit, in exchange for agreeing to help each other out with something or other, which you'd do anyway.

[Sith_Happens]

the changeling sphere really got screwed over by one of our own players being an idiot. Basically, he played a spring courtier, ensorcelled pretty much all the mortals in the game on sight,

You know, I'm pretty sure the freehold should have stepped in to stop that kind of idiocy long before the vampires caught wind of it. Ensorcelling half the city would be a huge beacon for the Gentry, complete with a sign saying "Changelings this way --->" in bright neon letters.

My character got called in after that to clean up the mess, and she was pretty close to killing this changeling but figured she had to rescue the thrall (which she did, from a hob who was trying to drag her off) and talk with her before dealing with the other changeling (which she didn't, because we got caught by the vampires on the way out.)

Basically, vinculum was the only solution for dealing with my character besides death (she was into aggravated damage in the second round, oh and the vampires were all making their frenzy rolls for cloak of the elements fire), and my character was the only one remaining who wasn't bound.

Uh, so you're saying that you were dealing with the problem for them and had successfully rescued the hostage, and their response was to attack you? Sounds like there are some other problems here besides just your resulting predicament...

Not to mention that by all logic the freehold higher-ups should have gone in early on to talk things out with the vampires and work damage control, considering the severe risk of blowback against them on account of a rogue PC.

Whoops, forgot to write this before...

If you have any unbound-but-active Changelings on the grid, you could have one of them go to the vampires and say something along the lines of "Those of us here are less powerful than you are. We admit that. But the freeholds here that blew up on themselves aren't the only ones in existence. Knock it off, or we'll hedgewalk over a few cities and get some help.

Sure, it may not be their problem directly, but we all take being made into slaves, even well-treated ones, seriously, so do you really want to risk that?"

Oh, and make sure they mention the Summer Court Patent-Pending Sun Lasers.