General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

[Water_Bear]

For the sake of discussion, is Fae Arcadia the same as Supernal Arcadia?

If they are the same place, a True Fae in their home realm is on par with the most powerful Archmages short of the Oracles/Exarchs themselves. Seriously hardcore.

If not, then they are only on the level of those weird Underworld Gods, the planetary Spirits and powerful Astral entities; outside of a normal Mage's power but an Archmage could turn them into beach-balls and kick them into the Abyss so long as no other Archmages object.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

RE:Reciprocal Explosions and Universes: What mage can do that? Nevermind, destroying the universe also kills the mage, considering what the universe is in NWoD.

RE:"Flip off the mage" power: The mage can keep trying, but that doesn't invalidate the value of the power. It's like saying armor is useless because I can keep attacking until I get through. Oh, and I just recalled what reflexive actions are in NWoD. It seems that tier 2 of that power can be used over and over again. I love mummies.

RE:True Fae and its realm: In order to eliminate a True Fae, the Archmage would need to alter Arcadia itself, which I doubt even they can do. That said, everything that an archmage can do is up to ST fiat, so this is kind of a pointless line of discussion. Unrelated, this is part why I hate mages.

RE:Sin-eater v. Changeling: I'm not sure what Contracts of Omen you're reading, but that does not match up with what I'm reading. They're powerful, sure, but not "absolutely and perfectly predict the future and then prepare accordingly for an indefinite amount of time into the future" powerful.

RE:Prommy v. Changeling: It doesn't have to have a chance in a fight, because I don't care about their ability to fight one another. I care about how versatile and effective in the world around them they will be at comparable levels of experience. How much they can do at 0, 10, 35, 50, and 100 XP, for instance, not necessarily how effective they will be in a fight to death. Combat is considered some measure of a factor, but it isn't the be-all, end-all for my rankings. It's really only a minor consideration overall.

RE:Differing tiers: We will have to agree to disagree, then. See my point immediately above. And while we're at it, a wizard in D&D can run circles around a cleric at anything you want. Both are Tier 1. Does the fact that a cleric isn't as powerful as a wizard mean that the cleric shouldn't be Tier 1? You may have convinced me that changelings should also be Tier 2, but not that sin-eaters should be moved down.

EDIT: Oh, and as for the question of Changeling Arcadia and Supernal Arcadia being the same or different, it's explicitly up to the ST. This is why I just marked both True Fae and Archmages as Tier 0: Functional Gods, and left it at that.

[Eisenfavl]

RE:Reciprocal Explosions and Universes: What mage can do that? Nevermind, destroying the universe also kills the mage, considering what the universe is in NWoD.
Matter mages is reciprocal explosions, but most mages can turn the majority of the world into a hellhole at starting

RE:"Flip off the mage" power: The mage can keep trying, but that doesn't invalidate the value of the power. It's like saying armor is useless because I can keep attacking until I get through. Oh, and I just recalled what reflexive actions are in NWoD. It seems that tier 2 of that power can be used over and over again. I love mummies.
I re-read the posts, and I'm pretty sure the mummy has a limit on how many times he can do something at once. Given the mage can prepare nigh-infinite spells at once, he can just run out the manasource of whatever mummies use.

RE:True Fae and its realm: In order to eliminate a True Fae, the Archmage would need to alter Arcadia itself, which I doubt even they can do. That said, everything that an archmage can do is up to ST fiat, so this is kind of a pointless line of discussion. Unrelated, this is part why I hate mages.
Altering Arcadia is pathetically simple at Time 6+, and debateably fate 6+ lets you do it as well.

RE:Sin-eater v. Changeling: I'm not sure what Contracts of Omen you're reading, but that does not match up with what I'm reading. They're powerful, sure, but not "absolutely and perfectly predict the future and then prepare accordingly for an indefinite amount of time into the future" powerful.
Contracts of Omen give you the most significant event in the next month at 3, which is likely to be the sin-eater trying to set you on fire. Omen 4 gives you nigh-immunity to ambushes as well, while sin-eaters need to know about their foes before the fight starts to use their more powerful effects. Both of them have great offence and escape, but changelings can prepare for events much faster and more easily than sin-eaters

RE:Prommy v. Changeling: It doesn't have to have a chance in a fight, because I don't care about their ability to fight one another. I care about how versatile and effective in the world around them they will be at comparable levels of experience. How much they can do at 0, 10, 35, 50, and 100 XP, for instance, not necessarily how effective they will be in a fight to death. Combat is considered some measure of a factor, but it isn't the be-all, end-all for my rankings. It's really only a minor consideration overall.
Yes. However, you forget something about promies: THEY CANNOT INTERACT WITH ANYONE AT ALL EVER. NOT EVEN SLIGHTLY. This is the primary mechanic of Prommies. EVERYONE hates them. Also, they get a small number of limited but powerful powers and benefits, while changelings get tons of wyrd-based powers for free (pledges, obviously, but talecrafting and some of entitlements you can get) as well as cheap and powerful contracts. Changelings are crazy versatile. There's a reason they're #1 for social, and that reason is stronger-than-direct-possession pledge based social control over MASSIVE groups.

RE:Differing tiers: We will have to agree to disagree, then. See my point immediately above. And while we're at it, a wizard in D&D can run circles around a cleric at anything you want. Both are Tier 1. Does the fact that a cleric isn't as powerful as a wizard mean that the cleric shouldn't be Tier 1? You may have convinced me that changelings should also be Tier 2, but not that sin-eaters should be moved down.
Assuming PO, clerics are realistically better than wizards at most things, actually. TO wizards are just more famous than TO clerics.

EDIT: Oh, and as for the question of Changeling Arcadia and Supernal Arcadia being the same or different, it's explicitly up to the ST. This is why I just marked both True Fae and Archmages as Tier 0: Functional Gods, and left it at that.
I thought Autumn Nightmares made it official that they are the same.
True Fae are functional gods though, yes. Archmages need to be put to one side because they are probably the only splat really bringing in the power to directly give/remove templates.

If we completely ignore direct power, both for fights and social rolls, a versatility list looks like this:
Mages > Changelings > Sin-Eaters > Werewolves > Vampires > Prometheans

Prometheans will never be versatile because >Disquiet
Vampires are powerful if you cheese it up, but most are trapped by their beast to basic levels of power because all the really old ones go crazy, and their amazingly good powers are hideously expensive.

[The Glyphstone]

Yes. However, you forget something about promies: THEY CANNOT INTERACT WITH ANYONE AT ALL EVER. NOT EVEN SLIGHTLY. This is the primary mechanic of Prommies. EVERYONE hates them. Also, they get a small number of limited but powerful powers and benefits, while changelings get tons of wyrd-based powers for free (pledges, obviously, but talecrafting and some of entitlements you can get) as well as cheap and powerful contracts. Changelings are crazy versatile. There's a reason they're #1 for social, and that reason is stronger-than-direct-possession pledge based social control over MASSIVE groups.

Have you ever actually read the Disquiet rules? It takes a while to build up to the torches-and-pitchforks stage, dies down pretty fast, and isn't automatic, but takes a failed roll against resistance stats. Prometheans can't settle down and camp in one place for long, no, but they're hardly forbidden from any social interaction.

Changelings are better, yes, but you are not presenting Created at all fairly.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Matter mages is reciprocal explosions, but most mages can turn the majority of the world into a hellhole at starting

I'm not convinced of this. You have, at best, 1 arcanum at 3 dots, 1 at 2 dots, and 1 at 1 dot at starting, with gnosis 3. I don't think you can do large-scale hellhole that way.

I re-read the posts, and I'm pretty sure the mummy has a limit on how many times he can do something at once. Given the mage can prepare nigh-infinite spells at once, he can just run out the manasource of whatever mummies use.

I'm getting the sense that you're a mage fan. If it's really true that they can just keep throwing dakka at an opponent until something sticks, no matter how long it takes, in one turn, that's just more reason for me to hate them.

Altering Arcadia is pathetically simple at Time 6+, and debateably fate 6+ lets you do it as well.

I'm not sure that actually makes sense, from a narrative perspective if nothing else, but I confess to not knowing much about archmages beyond "gnosis 10, arcanum 6, total BS in terms of capabilities and alleged role in the cosmic order of things." So I'll have to take your word for it. Yet another reason for me to hate mages.

Contracts of Omen give you the most significant event in the next month at 3, which is likely to be the sin-eater trying to set you on fire. Omen 4 gives you nigh-immunity to ambushes as well, while sin-eaters need to know about their foes before the fight starts to use their more powerful effects. Both of them have great offence and escape, but changelings can prepare for events much faster and more easily than sin-eaters

Okay, no. The changeling learns the "nature of the event, roughly when it occurs, and the general nature of the events surrounding it." That's from the book. Furthermore, the future glimpsed is explicitly not immutable, so it is entirely possible that the changeling will learn that he will face death by fire sometime next week, and that it will be because he angered someone. That's what he learns. He doesn't learn that it will be Johnny Reaper, with the Pyre-Flame Boneyard, in his apartment, at midnight on the 2nd of April.

Omen 4 is certainly powerful, yes, but it can only be used once during a single scene, and the changeling acting differently changes the outcome of the future. So, let's say he gets ambushed by the sin-eater. He activates his contract, and instead of walking into the ambush, does something unexpected. Fine, the sin-eater can either adapt or abandon the plan, depnding on what the changeling is doing this time.

Yes. However, you forget something about promies: THEY CANNOT INTERACT WITH ANYONE AT ALL EVER. NOT EVEN SLIGHTLY. This is the primary mechanic of Prommies. EVERYONE hates them. Also, they get a small number of limited but powerful powers and benefits, while changelings get tons of wyrd-based powers for free (pledges, obviously, but talecrafting and some of entitlements you can get) as well as cheap and powerful contracts. Changelings are crazy versatile. There's a reason they're #1 for social, and that reason is stronger-than-direct-possession pledge based social control over MASSIVE groups.

Seriously, what Glyphstone said. Prommies are hated eventually, yes, but that takes a while to build up to noticeable levels.

Assuming PO, clerics are realistically better than wizards at most things, actually. TO wizards are just more famous than TO clerics.

I will take your word for it, but we seem to talking TO in this debate rather than PO, so I assumed a TO comparison for D&D was valid. If we must restrict to PO, I will offer the druid, without Planar Shepherd cheese. Still Tier 1, noticeably weaker (at high levels, due to the nature of their respective spell lists) than the wizard.

I thought Autumn Nightmares made it official that they are the same.
True Fae are functional gods though, yes. Archmages need to be put to one side because they are probably the only splat really bringing in the power to directly give/remove templates.

Did they do that? I didn't notice it. I certainly hope not, I like the idea of them being separate more than I like the idea of them being the same.

If we completely ignore direct power, both for fights and social rolls, a versatility list looks like this:
Mages > Changelings > Sin-Eaters > Werewolves > Vampires > Prometheans

I still disagree. Mages (hate) are on top, yes, and sin-eaters and changelings... eh, you may have a point. Werewolves are less versatile than vampires, due to not having any powers to aid them in social situations. Prommies... I confess, I took my breakdown from an old post in either this thread or its predecessor, which had changelings and prommies listed as being roughly equal overall.

Prometheans will never be versatile because >Disquiet
Vampires are powerful if you cheese it up, but most are trapped by their beast to basic levels of power because all the really old ones go crazy, and their amazingly good powers are hideously expensive.

So they focus more on Disciplines than Blood Potency. I'm not sure what you mean by "trapped by their beast to basic levels of power," however. Care to elaborate? Regardless, vampires don't need cheese to be versatile, they just need disciplines. Ghouls help, too.

Disquiet makes prommies unplayable in mixed groups, but it's because it's an inevitability, not an immediate issue. Besides, I'm not sure how Disquiet prevents versatility.

[WitchSlayer]

As someone whose played an Archmage, Archmages are super limited and you can't just do exploding forever and removing planes because 1. You have to acquire a super special thing to actually cast the spell and 2. Your fellow archmages have to LET you, and if they don't then they **** you over.

Edit: Also, no, you can't change Arcadia with Fate 6. You have to be rank 8 in an arcanum to mess around with a changeling template. At rank 10 you are basically all powerful but by then you probably ascend to the supernal.

[SiuiS]

Tier 1 of this power is meaningless because the mage is attacking from a location no other supernatural splat could hope to get to: another galaxy, another timestream, a ban-bubble of anti sekhem and whatever else, the underworld, the spirit world, or even a supernal realm.

What? No.
Getting to another realm, okay, let's pretend that's feasible for now (galaxy? Alternate universe? Separate time stream? Anti-"this thing I know nothing about" ward? How are you pulling that off). At basic you're sitting at -8 on all rolls, 1 mana each time, and hoping for the best. Assuming its not something silly like the shadow, we're others can find you; the underworld, here they can find you, twilight, here they can find you, or in a bunker down the road, where they can find you. Or astral, where they can find you.

You've got a limited resources you're blowing in surviving wherever you are and also trying to target a resisting, distant creature.

Tier 2 is only usable once per round, isn't it? This means that any mages who sets up multiple spells to go at once will just get through this, so it is once again useless.

Even with legacy powers this burns your mana reserves. Without them, it's vulgar as sin and you'll either die or be swallowed by a demon.

And starting Char mages just blow up the world. The more I think about it, the more this is a starting matter-mage's answer to any given issue.

"If you blow up reality, arch mages undo it an then assassinate all of your great grandparents so you were never a problem" is an intrinsic part of the setting, so, no.

"Guywhoswearsnottokillmeonpainofdeathsays'GGRRRAAA AAARGH!'?" Seriously, though, fine, the changeling can still fight back.

Yeah, but he's doing it with about a third of his tank gone. More if it was a surprise or he's not durable. That matters.

I would love to see him win initiative and pull that oath off though. I wanna, you both die, but that poor werewolf!

This isn't OWoD anymore. Werewolves are not nearly as good at combat as you seem to think.

Regrow limbs for 8XP. Survive damage into death with a reflexive essence burn. Use a Kevlar power to turn everything into bashing. Pretty solid. Even a starting Mage would be unable to do all that; you'd need Life 5 and forces 3 for regen and bashing conversion.

It doesn't take much to beat them. The changeling could use Contract of Elements 5 to become something insubstantial, like smoke or flame. Good luck injuring that with your claws.

Smoke?
>inhale
>run to shadow
>exhale

Changeling reforms with huge chunks missing when contract ends.

Water? Same thing. Fire? Pee on them. Air? Summon tornado spirit. Sand? Pee on them again. Rock? Grind em up. Cuz uh, if you arbitrarily have level five interacts, I've got level five gifts and a splat that encourages the ST to make cool stuff up. So I'll just inhale you, let you hit my blood stream and purge you like a toxin. Bye bye.

Activate a couple of different contracts that allow me to escape, pacify him, make me better in combat, or countless other options? There's a contract that will let me jump him forward in time to a time when I'm not there anymore.

Cool. I've got, at PU 3, a defense of 15, an offense of 28, aggravated damage, three guaranteed successes on an attack I I spen will power, can track YouA cross dimensions I you're within a few miles, have an army of unseen spies I can bribe to help locate and hinder you, and a pack.

Or instead of pulling out the top level stuff for a friendly discussion about a system that doesn't really benefit from optimization, we could do what I was doing, and look at an out-the-gate plus 35 XP build. It's much more interesting because it's feasible, and otherwise it would just be a nebulous talk I shifting goalposts.

I'll admit though, I think combat misses the point Of the system, almost entirely. I have combat to werewolf because that all they are, a changeling doin the same thing would be looked at funny, but a werewolf combat brute is doin it rite.

Theoretically, anyway. RAW, no, it won't.

Rules as written, hack your was cut off won't kill you either. Any ST who doesn't Ollie through on it is being a ninny, though.

You know, here's something. I'll just drive a stake through the werewolf's heart. BAM, beaten by a changeling.

See the footnote about maybe a werewolf beig able to survive it

True Fae v. Archmage: That depends. Is the True Fae in its realm? Because there, it is literally God. Is the True Fae anywhere else? Because in that case, the archmage will win, sure. But again, I equated the two as being functional gods.

Aren't the true Fae the remnants that were so small-time the exarchs didn't see fit to notice them?

[Selrahc]

I'm getting the sense that you're a mage fan. If it's really true that they can just keep throwing dakka at an opponent until something sticks, no matter how long it takes, in one turn, that's just more reason for me to hate them.

A time 3 mage can rewind time by 1 turn at the cost of mana. So if the mage failed to cast a spell, and the mummy did something non-lethal (and hopefully non-harmful! Damage transitions back in time too), the mage could rewind to the turn before and cast a spell again. If the mage is trying the same thing over and over, then the response of the mummy will always be the same. When the mage hits dangerously low on Mana, he can Space 3 out of there with portal. If he can cast it.. it's an extended cast spell so he need to have one contingently prepared earlier. The mage then needs a safe hideaway where he can regenerate mana supplies. Of course... low wisdom mages can get back mana very very quickly even without a Hallow just by sacrificing a goat and scouring their pattern a few times, so the mage is probably only out of action a day or so.

Bear in mind though, this is a Fate 2, Time 3, Space 3 mage, so it's a bit outside starting characters(30xp for an Acanthus). The mage also needs whatever arcanum they want for the spell they are attempting to recast over and over. And on each attempt to rewind time he has a chance of failure, a cost in mana, and a building paradox pool. What could easily happen, from the Mummies perspective, would be:

"Ah ha ha! I laugh in the face of your ward Mister Mummy!"
*Mage suddenly looks like he has had the crap kicked out of him and is being attacked by an ethereal tentacle*
*Mummy archly raises Eyebrow*

Matter mages is reciprocal explosions, but most mages can turn the majority of the world into a hellhole at starting

What?

I'm sure Matter is going to be some trick with creating anti-matter or fissionable material, but please explain to me how any of the other Arcanum can do anything of the "Hellhole world" sort at 3 dots.

I suppose the plan could be to hack into the US President's head and let loose the nuclear apocalypse? But doesn't really get to the heart of what the splat can do other than "Mess with mortals".

[Turalisj]

If we completely ignore direct power, both for fights and social rolls, a versatility list looks like this:
Mages > Changelings > Sin-Eaters > Werewolves > Vampires > Prometheans

Prometheans will never be versatile because >Disquiet
Vampires are powerful if you cheese it up, but most are trapped by their beast to basic levels of power because all the really old ones go crazy, and their amazingly good powers are hideously expensive.

I'd like to start seeing some book quotes and proof. And not clipped quotes, but whole sections that include the drawbacks and costs of a power.

Because. Right now? Right now you aren't sounding too believable.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Yeah, but he's doing it with about a third of his tank gone. More if it was a surprise or he's not durable. That matters.

I would love to see him win initiative and pull that oath off though. I wanna, you both die, but that poor werewolf!

Fair enough. As Scottzar pointed out, Contracts of Omen 3 can give the Changeling some warning, and Omen 4 can let him react better to the surprise attacks. That said, those don't grant immunity to ambushes, and they won't save a lone changeling from a pack of werewolves. Werewolves do do combat well, just not as well as they used to.

Regrow limbs for 8XP. Survive damage into death with a reflexive essence burn. Use a Kevlar power to turn everything into bashing. Pretty solid. Even a starting Mage would be unable to do all that; you'd need Life 5 and forces 3 for regen and bashing conversion.

Granted on the limb regrowth, but remember that that takes time. Werewolves can't regen aggravated damage, it has to heal normally, so any reflexive essence burn has to heal lethal damage. If the werewolf is taking aggravated damage (silver weapons? something else?), he's screwed. That being one of the big problems, honestly. No regenning aggravated damage, lethal heals at a rate of 1 point per 15 minutes without essence burn, gauru cuts off fighting styles and doesn't last long enough...

Smoke?
>inhale
>run to shadow
>exhale

Changeling reforms with huge chunks missing when contract ends.

Water? Same thing. Fire? Pee on them. Air? Summon tornado spirit. Sand? Pee on them again. Rock? Grind em up. Cuz uh, if you arbitrarily have level five interacts, I've got level five gifts and a splat that encourages the ST to make cool stuff up. So I'll just inhale you, let you hit my blood stream and purge you like a toxin. Bye bye.

Actually,

Taking non-solid form makes the changeling largely immune from harm. If this element form is destroyed or seriously damaged (like a fire being extinguished), the changeling automatically reverts to his normal form. Due to the shock, the changeling also loses two points of Willpower and cannot use this clause for one full day.

So yeah, if the changeling becomes rock, he can be broken, though he gets armor equal to half his Wyrd. If he becomes smoke, or a sentient breeze (an actual example, believe it or not), he's practically invincible for as long as the contract lasts.

Cool. I've got, at PU 3, a defense of 15, an offense of 28, aggravated damage, three guaranteed successes on an attack I I spen will power, can track YouA cross dimensions I you're within a few miles, have an army of unseen spies I can bribe to help locate and hinder you, and a pack.

Unless I missed something, werewolves don't have native aggravated damage. Care to elaborate on this? As well as on the numbers and the guaranteed attack successes? The spirits and pack I understand, of course.

Or instead of pulling out the top level stuff for a friendly discussion about a system that doesn't really benefit from optimization, we could do what I was doing, and look at an out-the-gate plus 35 XP build. It's much more interesting because it's feasible, and otherwise it would just be a nebulous talk I shifting goalposts.

This is agreeable. 35-XP werewolf vs. equivalent changeling? Yeah, werewolf should win for combat, barring an explicitly combat-specced changeling and an explicitly non-combat-specced werewolf. Changeling can probably do more to function in and/or influence the world around him, though. Without relying on spirits, at least.

I'll admit though, I think combat misses the point Of the system, almost entirely. I have combat to werewolf because that all they are, a changeling doin the same thing would be looked at funny, but a werewolf combat brute is doin it rite.

Granted. I just really wish gauru form was better. And/or that there were more fighting styles for Urshul and Urhan. And maybe that they healed quicker without needing to spend essence.

Rules as written, hack your was cut off won't kill you either. Any ST who doesn't Ollie through on it is being a ninny, though.

I'm guessing you meant to say "having your head cut off" somewhere in there? My point is more that impalement through the heart is actually a survivable injury, doubly so when you add in magical healing abilities (Life magic, goblin fruits, plasm, regeneration, etc.).

See the footnote about maybe a werewolf beig able to survive it

I still say that others can survive it, too. Mage with Life magic, sin-eater with plasm left over, changeling with a goblin fruit, mortal with immediate medical attention...

Aren't the true Fae the remnants that were so small-time the exarchs didn't see fit to notice them?

Well, the original, maybe. But from what I understand, it's all really nebulous and up to what the ST feels fits best for his game. The one thing I do know for certain is that Changelings who hit Wyrd 10 rapidly descend to Clarity 0 and then become more True Fae.

What could easily happen, from the Mummies perspective, would be:

"Ah ha ha! I laugh in the face of your ward Mister Mummy!"
*Mage suddenly looks like he has had the crap kicked out of him and is being attacked by an ethereal tentacle*
*Mummy archly raises Eyebrow*

This made me laugh, I won't lie.

[Water_Bear]

Personally, in terms of templates with a lot of unexpected power, I like the Purified from WoD; Immortals.

It's a minor template, gives really solid immortality and some really cool abilities if you have the xp for them. Definitely not T1, but I'd say better than a Werewolf.

Highlights:

• Can burn essence to regen wounds, including Aggrivated damge.
• After you kill them you have to find their (Warded) regeneration-closet, destroy it, kill them again, go into the Shadow to find their Spirit form, drain it's Essence, kill it, and then cross your fingers that they don't re-form anyway.
• Can buy Spirit / Ghost Numen, spend their own Essence to use them, and they roll Attribute+Skill for them.
• With a few dots in various powers, they can summon virtually any Spirit and Ghost and command them at virtually no cost. There is nothing which says this doesn't apply to Abyssal / Astral Spirits, or to Demons, or even Geists and Ghost Mages. Cheesey, but legit IMO.
• They can make Wards which block pretty much anything from coming into their space, and give them a reflexive ability to shut down magic which affects anything in their area. The die pool for that last one can get pretty big.

I've got a modified one of these guys as a villain in a game I've been setting up, and if you get enough splats to go diving in for Numen and summons they can do just about anything.

[SiuiS]

Fair enough. As Scottzar pointed out, Contracts of Omen 3 can give the Changeling some warning, and Omen 4 can let him react better to the surprise attacks. That said, those don't grant immunity to ambushes, and they won't save a lone changeling from a pack of werewolves. Werewolves do do combat well, just not as well as they used to.

Well, I didn't mean one v/ pack, exactly. Just that that a pack was worth more than a motley (freehold wins, though).

The key point I was working on was that if a changeling is combat focused, they hit the Every Problem Looks Like a Nail thing and stand a good chance of not functioning in society. Werewolf really doesn't have that problem unless you spec entirely for noncombat. The changeling will definitely be capable of actually, you know, doing anything else of value, for certain.

Granted on the limb regrowth, but remember that that takes time. Werewolves can't regen aggravated damage, it has to heal normally, so any reflexive essence burn has to heal lethal damage. If the werewolf is taking aggravated damage (silver weapons? something else?), he's screwed. That being one of the big problems, honestly. No regenning aggravated damage, lethal heals at a rate of 1 point per 15 minutes without essence burn, gauru cuts off fighting styles and doesn't last long enough...

Silver, aye. From my understanding, essence burn is instantaneous enough, though, that if you take so much lethal I would wrap around to aggravated, you can burn essence to heal it before it sets into aggravated.

There is also a gift, the single, most terribly poorly written thing I've ever seen, that downgrades damage in a way. I ... think it basically sets it up so if you're hit with agg damage, you take lethal instead, and if you're hit with lethal you take bashing instead, but dear goddess so poorly worded.

My initial reading was, on success, each ally gets to downgrade an existing point of damage. But it has no cost, ague dice roll, no decent explanation. Ugh.

Actually,
So yeah, if the changeling becomes rock, he can be broken, though he gets armor equal to half his Wyrd. If he becomes smoke, or a sentient breeze (an actual example, believe it or not), he's practically invincible for as long as the contract lasts.

Oh. Hm. Well, that means that I could instantly dispel it, but yeah. Not so useful.

Man I just read those too, how could I forget? I rolled up a smoke guy just recently.

Unless I missed something, werewolves don't have native aggravated damage. Care to elaborate on this? As well as on the numbers and the guaranteed attack successes? The spirits and pack I understand, of course.

Father Wolf gift track gives you aggravate at ... 4? I think? There's an aspect which modifies your auspice such that a Full moon can still use martial arts in Gauru form, Fang & Talon gives auto success on a bite, there is another which adds to it and costs defense not willpower, Alpha gifts let you add your Intimidate to defense, there's a Gibbeous moon ability (not gift) that adds their Expression (possibly plus primal urge?) to ally defense/speed/initiative in any variation (I assumed all in defense, 0 speed/initiative), Attavism gives you the higher of wits or dex for defense (as well as a werewolf specific merit, I think, but that might be a house rule), gifts boost stats, as does War Form, which means a decent layout can get you from 5 dex and STR up to 7 each plus buffs plus armor plus defense gift plus defense bonus plus magic armor enhancement along with a strength 7+brawl 5+specialty 1+bite 2+Gift 1-3+guaranteed successes 2+willpower 3+ fetish X and suddenly I don't even feel like rolling anymore.

*deep breath*

Hell of a run on sentence >_<
Even better though, a starting Mage can bring an area effect ~40 dice lethal attack to the table without magic. That's why I say I don't really care about combat spec – it's a system designed to work best at 2 or 3 dice, so 20-25 attack is only useful when the for has 18-23 defense/armor/terrain penalties.

This is agreeable. 35-XP werewolf vs. equivalent changeling? Yeah, werewolf should win for combat, barring an explicitly combat-specced changeling and an explicitly non-combat-specced werewolf. Changeling can probably do more to function in and/or influence the world around him, though. Without relying on spirits, at least.

Oh, good! I was afraid I had phrased that poorly and it would come across as an insult >_<
Yeah, spirits are a wild card. No, just counting what goes on the sheet; pack totem, maybe, but mostly merits, skills, gifts.

A werewolf who fought through the allure of Luna and escaped out the other side I Shapdw would be a GREAT Changeling story, though XD

Granted. I just really wish gauru form was better. And/or that there were more fighting styles for Urshul and Urhan. And maybe that they healed quicker without needing to spend essence.

There's a book, I think War Against The Pure? Whichever one has the silver crusade. It has a side note to allow Rahu (only!) to use martial arts in Gauru. Throw in the reloaded! Hack for healing Bashing (and maybe lethal/essence) equal to your primal urge and you're good to go.

Fighting styles in general, though, are swingy, all over the place, and h4x. I think berserker and combat arts are more elegant systems. "Pick a skill these merits modify that skill in appropriate ways."

I'm guessing you meant to say "having your head cut off" somewhere in there? My point is more that impalement through the heart is actually a survivable injury, doubly so when you add in magical healing abilities (Life magic, goblin fruits, plasm, regeneration, etc.).

Yes. Goodness, I'm sorry. I usually catch the bad ones!
Yes, IRL implement is remarkably easy to survive. Oddly, since it's also remarkably lethal, but the human body is weird. But stabbed in the heart is usually short-hand for "dead", and I see no reason to tamper with that because reality.

Personally, in terms of templates with a lot of unexpected power, I like the Purified from WoD; Immortals.

It's a minor template, gives really solid immortality and some really cool abilities if you have the xp for them. Definitely not T1, but I'd say better than a Werewolf.

Highlights:

• Can burn essence to regen wounds, including Aggrivated damge.
• After you kill them you have to find their (Warded) regeneration-closet, destroy it, kill them again, go into the Shadow to find their Spirit form, drain it's Essence, kill it, and then cross your fingers that they don't re-form anyway.
• Can buy Spirit / Ghost Numen, spend their own Essence to use them, and they roll Attribute+Skill for them.
• With a few dots in various powers, they can summon virtually any Spirit and Ghost and command them at virtually no cost. There is nothing which says this doesn't apply to Abyssal / Astral Spirits, or to Demons, or even Geists and Ghost Mages. Cheesey, but legit IMO.
• They can make Wards which block pretty much anything from coming into their space, and give them a reflexive ability to shut down magic which affects anything in their area. The die pool for that last one can get pretty big.

I've got a modified one of these guys as a villain in a game I've been setting up, and if you get enough splats to go diving in for Numen and summons they can do just about anything.

Wow, cool!

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Well, I didn't mean one v/ pack, exactly. Just that that a pack was worth more than a motley (freehold wins, though).

The key point I was working on was that if a changeling is combat focused, they hit the Every Problem Looks Like a Nail thing and stand a good chance of not functioning in society. Werewolf really doesn't have that problem unless you spec entirely for noncombat. The changeling will definitely be capable of actually, you know, doing anything else of value, for certain.

Agreed.

Silver, aye. From my understanding, essence burn is instantaneous enough, though, that if you take so much lethal I would wrap around to aggravated, you can burn essence to heal it before it sets into aggravated.

It's a reflexive action that overrides normal regeneration for that round, and is limited by PU for the amount of essence you can burn at once. It's possible, but difficult and easy to be overwhelmed.

There is also a gift, the single, most terribly poorly written thing I've ever seen, that downgrades damage in a way. I ... think it basically sets it up so if you're hit with agg damage, you take lethal instead, and if you're hit with lethal you take bashing instead, but dear goddess so poorly worded.

My initial reading was, on success, each ally gets to downgrade an existing point of damage. But it has no cost, ague dice roll, no decent explanation. Ugh.

If you think of what it is, or what book it's in, let me know. I'm pretty good at decoding things.

Oh. Hm. Well, that means that I could instantly dispel it, but yeah. Not so useful.

Instantly depending on the form. The Deluge gift would let you put out a fire changeling, sure, but I don't think there's much you could do to mess up a sentient breeze. You can't blow them away, because they are the wind.

Father Wolf gift track gives you aggravate at ... 4? I think? There's an aspect which modifies your auspice such that a Full moon can still use martial arts in Gauru form, Fang & Talon gives auto success on a bite, there is another which adds to it and costs defense not willpower, Alpha gifts let you add your Intimidate to defense...

4 yes, and it last for the rest of the scene with no roll. Cool, that actually really helps werewolves. "Look how quick I can kill you!" And here I thought only vampires could do that. Glad to see I was wrong. Oh, and that's Tooth and Claw. Fang and Talon is the changeling Beast seeming contract.

Oh, good! I was afraid I had phrased that poorly and it would come across as an insult >_<
Yeah, spirits are a wild card. No, just counting what goes on the sheet; pack totem, maybe, but mostly merits, skills, gifts.

A werewolf who fought through the allure of Luna and escaped out the other side I Shapdw of the Shadow? would be a GREAT Changeling story, though XD

There's actually a kith for that: the Moonborn Darkling kith from Winter Masques.

There's a book, I think War Against The Pure? Whichever one has the silver crusade. It has a side note to allow Rahu (only!) to use martial arts in Gauru. Throw in the reloaded! Hack for healing Bashing (and maybe lethal/essence) equal to your primal urge and you're good to go.

That'd cetainly work. Unfortunately, it's restricted to when the character is under his Auspice moon, but that's still an improvement. That Reloaded hack does sound amazing, thoguh.

Fighting styles in general, though, are swingy, all over the place, and h4x. I think berserker and combat arts are more elegant systems. "Pick a skill these merits modify that skill in appropriate ways."

True, but they're a part of the game. Where can I find those berserker and combat arts systems?

Yes. Goodness, I'm sorry. I usually catch the bad ones!
Yes, IRL implement is remarkably easy to survive. Oddly, since it's also remarkably lethal, but the human body is weird. But stabbed in the heart is usually short-hand for "dead", and I see no reason to tamper with that because reality.

Have you heard of Phineas Gage? Took a tamping iron through his frontal lobe, lived to tell the tale. Significant change in personality and temperment, but hey, he survived it. Then there's that guy running around missing a good chunk of his frontal lobe from birth... "Weird" doesn't begin to cover the human body.

[sktarq]

Highlights:

• Can burn essence to regen wounds, including Aggrivated damge.
• After you kill them you have to find their (Warded) regeneration-closet, destroy it, kill them again, go into the Shadow to find their Spirit form, drain it's Essence, kill it, and then cross your fingers that they don't re-form anyway.
• Can buy Spirit / Ghost Numen, spend their own Essence to use them, and they roll Attribute+Skill for them.
• With a few dots in various powers, they can summon virtually any Spirit and Ghost and command them at virtually no cost. There is nothing which says this doesn't apply to Abyssal / Astral Spirits, or to Demons, or even Geists and Ghost Mages. Cheesey, but legit IMO.
• They can make Wards which block pretty much anything from coming into their space, and give them a reflexive ability to shut down magic which affects anything in their area. The die pool for that last one can get pretty big.

I've got a modified one of these guys as a villain in a game I've been setting up, and if you get enough splats to go diving in for Numen and summons they can do just about anything.

This is true. Actually flat out dangerous. A ST was trying to get a Vampire/Sin Eater crossover going and I did a variety of this. - He disallowed it but asked to keep the sheet for later use in the story. Pity that group never got of the ground. - There are lots of fun things you can do with that splat-book. - The ones that stick their souls in an object are even more a pain if you make them intelligent, and long term enough.

[Eisenfavl]

I'd like to see where people are getting that a combat spec'd werewolf has anything on a combat spec'd changeling. Sure, a spec'd werewolf can get decent stats, but he can't do jack to just the basic combat versatility of changelings who aren't combat spec'd.
(Also avatism is Slasher only, and thus something your werewolf definitely should not have. If you open Slasher merits up changelings just instant-kill everyone with sniper-rifles which count as coup-de-grace's)

We could both make mid-op generalists, and see which appears more powerful. Realistically though, werewolves will never have the social versatility of the more physically powerful changelings, and thus are second rate templates at best.

35xp, any houserules/hacks? Generally I think of 12/22 floating attribute/skillpoints as opposed to the specialisation system, but up to you.

[Morty]

You know, I can understand tiering D&D 3e classes. I think people treat it too seriously, but the concept makes sense. But tiering nWoD splats? Calling it pointless would be a compliment.

[Sith_Happens]

You know, I can understand tiering D&D 3e classes. I think people treat it too seriously, but the concept makes sense. But tiering nWoD splats? Calling it pointless would be a compliment.

I'm sure it can work easily enough, if people bother to pay attention to the parameters that 3.5 tiers are actually graded on rather than turning it into "who could beat whom in a fight."

[ToySoldierCPlus]

I'm sure it can work easily enough, if people bother to pay attention to the parameters that 3.5 tiers are actually graded on rather than turning it into "who could beat whom in a fight."

Eh, the exact parameters (T1: Multiple gamebreakers easily, T2: Access to some gamebreakers, but not as many as T1, T3: Excels in dedicated role while still being able to meaningfully contribute when said role is unnecessary, or is able to competently fill multiple rolls, T4: Competent in a single role, though likely to be less than meaningful when said role is unnecessary, T5: Incompetent at own dedicated role, T6: Incompetent period; all paraphrased, Tiers 4-6 may be slightly inaccurate, please correct me if they are) are potentially valid, but work better within single splats than for inter-splat comparisons. Using those exact tiers to compare the splats, you get something like this:
Tier 1: Mages, Mummies
Tier 2: Sin-eaters, Changelings (apparently)
Tier 3: Vampires
Tier 4: Werewolves
I'm not sure where prommies would fit, due to lack of practical knowledge. I was once told they were on par with changelings. I am not thoroughly convinced of this any longer.

As for the question of putting them in tiers or otherwise organizing them for comparison, yes, it's kind of silly. But hey, it's fun, and it can lead to everyone involved learning a thing or two about the splats.

[SiuiS]

This is true. Actually flat out dangerous. A ST was trying to get a Vampire/Sin Eater crossover going and I did a variety of this. - He disallowed it but asked to keep the sheet for later use in the story. Pity that group never got of the ground. - There are lots of fun things you can do with that splat-book. - The ones that stick their souls in an object are even more a pain if you make them intelligent, and long term enough.

What are these from?

I'd like to see where people are getting that a combat spec'd werewolf has anything on a combat spec'd changeling. Sure, a spec'd werewolf can get decent stats, but he can't do jack to just the basic combat versatility of changelings who aren't combat spec'd.
(Also avatism is Slasher only, and thus something your werewolf definitely should not have. If you open Slasher merits up changelings just instant-kill everyone with sniper-rifles which count as coup-de-grace's)

We could both make mid-op generalists, and see which appears more powerful. Realistically though, werewolves will never have the social versatility of the more physically powerful changelings, and thus are second rate templates at best.

35xp, any houserules/hacks? Generally I think of 12/22 floating attribute/skillpoints as opposed to the specialisation system, but up to you.

There's another way for a Werewolf to get animal defense, I just don't know the name.

But generally, why worry? It was a way of saying that werewolves were good at their niche. "changelings are better" is stupid. It is a different Gameline. Exalts are stronger, too, as is Cthulhu, and giant mechs. As a lark it was fun, but as a test? No.

You know, I can understand tiering D&D 3e classes. I think people treat it too seriously, but the concept makes sense. But tiering nWoD splats? Calling it pointless would be a compliment.

Yeah. XD

I'm sure it can work easily enough, if people bother to pay attention to the parameters that 3.5 tiers are actually graded on rather than turning it into "who could beat whom in a fight."

No, not that it can't be done, that it doesn't matter, doesn't serve near the same purpose and creates an artificial scale that the templates don't really need to live up to.

It's a reflexive action that overrides normal regeneration for that round, and is limited by PU for the amount of essence you can burn at once. It's possible, but difficult and easy to be overwhelmed.

Yeah. It's a one-time deal at best.

If you think of what it is, or what book it's in, let me know. I'm pretty good at decoding things.

Sure. From memory, it's a Gibbeous Moon only rite, like, Cub's Rite or something, it's from the auspice book. Signs of the moon?

Instantly depending on the form. The Deluge gift would let you put out a fire changeling, sure, but I don't think there's much you could do to mess up a sentient breeze. You can't blow them away, because they are the wind.

I think a fierce enough squall would constitute disruption. But that me.

Fang and Talon is the changeling Beast seeming contract.

Oops

There's actually a kith for that: the Moonborn Darkling kith from Winter Masques.

I always got a more lunatic vibe from them, actually. Plus their blessing doesn't help at all. I think a combination Cyclopean/Glimmerskin(?) with lethal mien would cover it. Maybe not even need Glimmerskin.

That'd cetainly work. Unfortunately, it's restricted to when the character is under his Auspice moon, but that's still an improvement. That Reloaded hack does sound amazing, thoguh.

Oh, dang. I didn't catch that Clause.

True, but they're a part of the game. Where can I find those berserker and combat arts systems?

I want to say armory reloaded? Combat Art, for example, is when you're really good at good looking by non-functional stage combat/"strip mall karate". It's tiered like a fighting style, but you pick a skill or fighting style it modifies, and you can use that skill for intimidation/free intimidation when you use that skill. You get better at bluffing, can use the skill as a bonus to expression, and eventually add half of it to your combat stats.

Berserk is better and modified all out attack.

Have you heard of Phineas Gage? Took a tamping iron through his frontal lobe, lived to tell the tale. Significant change in personality and temperment, but hey, he survived it. Then there's that guy running around missing a good chunk of his frontal lobe from birth... "Weird" doesn't begin to cover the human body.

Yeah, but people have died from being punched by 98-pound teenagers once, and you could kill someone with a straw. It's almost randomized, how tough/fragile people are. Knife to the vitals? Live. Flowerpot falls from five feet away? Die.

Bizarre, I suppose, would be better?

[Water_Bear]

What are these from?

Immortals, one of the "mini" books without a dedicated line. That, plus Second Sight and Inferno, has given me so much great material it's bizarre.

No, not that it can't be done, that it doesn't matter, doesn't serve near the same purpose and creates an artificial scale that the templates don't really need to live up to.

The point is that STs need a way of evaluating how PCs will stack up in a crossover game, especially with gamelines they aren't familiar with. If a Vampire a Werewolf and a Promethean walk into a bar, it would be nice to know how the team of Hunters you have preparing to ambush them are likely to do.


Also, people have talked about Mummy, but the only thing I can find is a development blog from last year. Is it out? Where are the rules? Do I have to pay for them? Is this nWoD or part of the re-released and updated old gamelines?

[Turalisj]

Also, people have talked about Mummy, but the only thing I can find is a development blog from last year. Is it out? Where are the rules? Do I have to pay for them? Is this nWoD or part of the re-released and updated old gamelines?

It is out. Check Drivethrurpg.com. Yes, you have to pay for them. It is nWoD and is supposed to be getting the same limited release length like Geist and Promethean, iirc.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

I always got a more lunatic vibe from them, actually. Plus their blessing doesn't help at all. I think a combination Cyclopean/Glimmerskin(?) with lethal mien would cover it. Maybe not even need Glimmerskin.

What are we going for here, exactly? If it's a changeling that was driven mad by Mother Luna, then the lunatic vibe from Moonborn works fine, and that's what I was thinking. Are you looking for something more along the lines of a changeling that should have been a werewolf, and as such has some werewolf traits? Because the Hunterheart works better for that.

Yeah, but people have died from being punched by 98-pound teenagers once, and you could kill someone with a straw. It's almost randomized, how tough/fragile people are. Knife to the vitals? Live. Flowerpot falls from five feet away? Die.

Bizarre, I suppose, would be better?

Bizarre is fair. Arbitrary is, too.

[Eurus]

The point is that STs need a way of evaluating how PCs will stack up in a crossover game, especially with gamelines they aren't familiar with. If a Vampire a Werewolf and a Promethean walk into a bar, it would be nice to know how the team of Hunters you have preparing to ambush them are likely to do.

Kill them all with fire.

Seriously, fire is just great. Toasts vampires, toasts Prometheans, reasonably effective against almost everything else. Cheap and readily available, even for your local gang of Union hunter-thugs. Fire™! Try it today!

[Lady Serpentine]

Kill them all with fire.

Seriously, fire is just great. Toasts vampires, toasts Prometheans, reasonably effective against almost everything else. Cheap and readily available, even for your local gang of Union hunter-thugs. Fire™! Try it today!

Eh. Fire is great... Except against starting Changelings with Contract of Elements (Flame) 2 (or several other versions of that Contract, all available with only the starting dots in Contracts, that let one put it out in various ways), or theoretically Eternal Summer/Winter 1, which going by that interpretation would also put out his friends if he spends a point of Willpower in the first case, or automatically if it works in the second. Or a Matter Mage capable of transmuting gasses to deny it oxygen, or solids to get rid of its fuel. Or a Werewolf who's outside and has the Deluge Gift.

Not saying it's not good, but it's not foolproof, either.

[Fable Wright]

Eh. Fire is great... Except against starting Changelings with Contract of Elements (Flame) 2 (or several other versions of that Contract, all available with only the starting dots in Contracts, that let one put it out in various ways), or theoretically Eternal Summer/Winter 1, which going by that interpretation would also put out his friends if he spends a point of Willpower in the first case, or automatically if it works in the second. Or a Matter Mage capable of transmuting gasses to deny it oxygen, or solids to get rid of its fuel. Or a Werewolf who's outside and has the Deluge Gift.

Not saying it's not good, but it's not foolproof, either.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Contract of Elements (Flame) 2 only provide 1 armor against the fire? As far as I'm aware, it takes a Goblin Vow or Contract of Elements 5 to become immune to fire for Changelings...

[Lady Serpentine]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Contract of Elements (Flame) 2 only provide 1 armor against the fire? As far as I'm aware, it takes a Goblin Vow or Contract of Elements 5 to become immune to fire for Changelings...

Ah. Yes, it would.

My apologies; I was thinking of Contract of Elements 1, and had made a minor oversight in reading it - I had caught the bit about it protecting completely from the more extreme manifestations of it, but missed the exact effects on direct damage; rather than rendering them completely immune, it removes a point of damage (lethal, bashing, or aggravated, apparently, seeing as the type isn't specified, though presumably it would protect against the worst first if one were to suffer all three types at once from an element).

That said, it's rather easy to get to Wyrd 3 at start*, and it has plenty of other benefits that make it not at all unlikely someone would do so, which would mean that while technically, the Changeling isn't quite immune to all fire, fire is highly ineffective against him, especially if one combines it with Elements 2, to get a point of armor on top of that (which, unlike regular armor, shouldn't burn away), as most fires are going to be somewhere in that range.

*Normally, burning through Merit dots like that would be a major problem, but considering the ease of getting most merits by way of pledges...

[Fable Wright]

That said, it's rather easy to get to Wyrd 3 at start*, and it has plenty of other benefits that make it not at all unlikely someone would do so, which would mean that while technically, the Changeling isn't quite immune to all fire, fire is highly ineffective against him, especially if one combines it with Elements 2, to get a point of armor on top of that (which, unlike regular armor, shouldn't burn away), as most fires are going to be somewhere in that range.

*Normally, burning through Merit dots like that would be a major problem, but considering the ease of getting most merits by way of pledges...

Are we reading the same Contract here? It says, in the bottom half of the last paragraph in clause 1 of Contract of Elements that it doesn't protect against elements created or modified with the intent of hurting someone. Any Fire-based attacks used by Hunters will almost definitely count as such...

[Lady Serpentine]

Are we reading the same Contract here? It says, in the bottom half of the last paragraph in clause 1 of Contract of Elements that it doesn't protect against elements created or modified with the intent of hurting someone. Any Fire-based attacks used by Hunters will almost definitely count as such...

That is quite true. The difficulty is, fire does not work well at all with that rule.

For instance, someone might set a fire in the woods with the intent of harming someone, which then spreads and becomes a massive forest fire - does that mean that the Changeling is not protected from any part of that fire? If so, what if someone takes a branch from it and keeps feeding fuel to it - is that still fire created with the intent to harm, since one could argue that it was part of the same fire, and they'd simply kept it going by feeding it new fuel?

If you say 'no' to the latter, then logically the first one has to be out as well, and if you say no to the former, then one can argue easily enough that only the initial flame used to start the fire that the Changeling is protecting themselves from counts as fire created with the intent to harm.

On the other hand, if you say yes to both, you can end up with some incredibly silly situations.

[Selrahc]

I'm not sure where prommies would fit, due to lack of practical knowledge. I was once told they were on par with changelings. I am not thoroughly convinced of this any longer.

Prometheans definitely aren't as powerful as Changelings.


The Promethean Round Up:

• The toughest splat. By quite a long way really. Every Promethean can keep on rocking even after their Health bars are full lethal. They ignore poison, they can subsist on mud and bits of twig, and they are functionally immortal. Electricity rapid heals them, and electricity is everywhere. And if you actually manage to kill them? They can resurrect. And keep resurrecting as long as they have more than 1 Azoth or the Revivification bestowment(8xp at Azoth 1).
• The quickest learning splat. Prometheans get Vitriol XP from fulfilling steps of their pilgrimage. This means they power up faster than other splats.
• Transmutations are convenient. Transmutations lists have multiple powers to select from at every level of power, and don't have to be bought in order. So Prometheans can cherry pick useful powers from amongst a wide selection that they have discounted. Transmutations have a tendency to be inherent things. Root changes to the Promethean that don't need a dice roll. There are some really good powers in there. Want Werewolf style regen? That's a power. Want
• Azoth works on the 10/1 11/2 12/3 etc. model. Prometheans can offload Pyros quickly. Handy. Azoth also figures into a lot of different dicepools.
• Pyros are incredibly easy to regain... if you take electroshock rejuvenation. That lets you superquick recharge pyros by hooking into electricity. Basically, every Promethean should take it.
• Attribute boosts- Prometheans can boost any attribute on a 1-1 basis by spending pyros. See previous two points.
• Athanors- Athanors are a fairly simple "Social Club" to join. More so than bloodlines or legacies. Probably about equal to lodges and entitlements, but with more inherency.
• Decent supernatural merits- They get prophecy dreams and residual memory. Both are worthwhile.
• Disquiet/Wasteland- The big disadvantage of Prometheans. No staying in an area for too long. As long as you follow that rule, it shouldn't get too bad. But it's a bit of a pisser even so.
• Standard Morality gauge- Prometheans have a bog standard morality meter. This is a bit of a disadvantage in comparison to Werewolves and Sin-Eaters.
• Pandorans- Pandorans are everywhere, and come to life when a Promethean comes near. Given that Prometheans also have to keep moving this means short desperate battles to the death are common. The more powerful a Promethean the wider his Azoth will spread, so the Pandorans auto-balance against his power level with numbers. This basically sucks.
• Fire weakness- All aggravated damage weaknesses are very annoying.

Prommies can do some really hoopy stuff. With Vulcanus 4, they can even start converting Pyros into willpower. So they are able to regenerate health, pyros and willpower from the same source. One that is almost everywhere within urban society. They can then use Pyros to boost any attribute they want at will. So a Promethean with Azoth 3 might attack somebody. They burn 3 pyros and a point of willpower to get a 6 dice bonus. But they might instead want to sweet talk somebody. They do exactly the same thing. Or maybe they want to research the location of the Elixir Recumbent? They do the exact same thing.

The ability to throw a 6 dice bonus on everything that you ever do is... nice.

[SiuiS]

It is out. Check Drivethrurpg.com. Yes, you have to pay for them. It is nWoD and is supposed to be getting the same limited release length like Geist and Promethean, iirc.

Cool. Keep meaning to get into those, but they never seem viable at the time...

What are we going for here, exactly? If it's a changeling that was driven mad by Mother Luna, then the lunatic vibe from Moonborn works fine, and that's what I was thinking. Are you looking for something more along the lines of a changeling that should have been a werewolf, and as such has some werewolf traits? Because the Hunterheart works better for that.


Bizarre is fair. Arbitrary is, too.

One of the examples I was given when told about Changeling, was an exalt. They were. Solar who conquered in the name of the Undying Sun, and rule Creation... Only to find they were really a Bright One with a tinfoil sword on their keeper's stage, who applauded and, story finished, let them go.

Any story can be a changeling story. Any one at all.

So, what I was going for, is an Uratha who remembers what it was like to be human, finds their way into Shadow, and out the other side... Only to find she's actually one of the lost, with fur and teeth and claws and a keen sense of smell.

Eh. Fire is great... Except against starting Changelings with Contract of Elements (Flame) 2 (or several other versions of that Contract, all available with only the starting dots in Contracts, that let one put it out in various ways), or theoretically Eternal Summer/Winter 1, which going by that interpretation would also put out his friends if he spends a point of Willpower in the first case, or automatically if it works in the second. Or a Matter Mage capable of transmuting gasses to deny it oxygen, or solids to get rid of its fuel. Or a Werewolf who's outside and has the Deluge Gift.

Not saying it's not good, but it's not foolproof, either.

Elements 1 should cover it. A burnin. Building is covered, at least, just don't dive into the actual flames.

Are we reading the same Contract here? It says, in the bottom half of the last paragraph in clause 1 of Contract of Elements that it doesn't protect against elements created or modified with the intent of hurting someone. Any Fire-based attacks used by Hunters will almost definitely count as such...

But the examples are. Sword. Elements (iron) 1 would theoretically protect you from metal debris of the Eiffel tower fell on you, even though a knife would still work.

I take it as more than intent, but creation. A table wouldn't hurt if thrown, really, but I'd teu break off the leg for a club it would. The fire wouldn't really work once it spread, but if the hunter picked up a table leg as a torch, you're no longer safe.