General Exalted Discussion Thread XI: Great Job, You Broke the Scale.

[industrious]

That's actually a really good idea, and you could actually merge it with one ability from each Caste. Solars were supposedly really good at pushing back the Wyld; why leave it to the Lore-favored alone?

Merged(War, Survival, Larceny, Socialize).

[Exthalion]

I believe I have found Rikandur Azebol point and will try to explain it in different words. If I am off base, please let me know.

The charms of the various splats are not equal. They get different effects for the same most cost and have wildly varying mote costs. It is therefore difficult to understand how charms are supposed to work for a particular splat because you have to find a sort of average of effect per mote and motes per charm.

He is proposing that all charms be balanced around mote costs so that there is more transparency as to what a particular charm is capable of. In order to maintain the fluff assertions of the various power levels of each splat you simply assign them different allowable ranges of motes for their charms.

This way making charms and comparing the effect of charms would become much easier since you would only need to know the mote cost to know what sort of effects it should be capable of.

This does not preclude altering the essence pool formulas so the high end splats have enormous pools with which to power their more expensive charms.

[Volthawk]

What about non-splat specific things like Sorcery, MA and artefacts - in both terms of attunement and the mote costs some have to power things? Screwing with mote pools and charm costs would make those things a bit screwy, I'd imagine.

[aetherialDawn]

A note on Wyld-Shaping: I can't quite recall the ability mortals use for it, but mortals are capable of going on vision/power quests into the Wyld and shaping it to their will slightly. It's just that Solars do it crazily well - which fits.

Given their themes, whatever ability mortals use for it has a good claim on "Wyld Shaping Should Be Here!"

[Rikandur Azebol]

This part doesn't make much sense. What point are you trying to make here ?

To not compare Exalted types when it's obvious like nose on person's face they are not even pretending to be equal mechanically.

And while there are plenty of ways to act awesome, to be awesome requires power to back up what you want to do, something that really requires charms in the current system.

Not really. My most awesome moments, whenever I played Exalt, were circumstantial things that just happened along the flow of the story. So ... if I can do it without charms doing it for me it means charms aren't necessary to be awesome. Just Role Playing. Mechanics supporting claims to be awesome won't replace actual being awesome.

Moreover, being highly inefficient in your usage of power(what you seem to be describing) doesn't really sound awesome to most people. Heck, Lunars operate under that philosophy currently, and it hasn't done them any favors.

Efficiency of power use isn't having cheap and great stuff. It's communistic thinking. Efficiency is knowing when use of powers will have the greatest impact with the least investment. Ergo, in Dramatic Moment and not using Excellency to look cool while wiping your behind after session in "temple of thinking".

And Lunars ... designers didn't knew what to do with them so they made them horrible.

War is actually pretty debatable: DB war can be pretty dangerous. Of course, there is the problem that the War/mass combat system doesn't really work at the moment.

Clarification, I were thinking on the War charms that serve to make better army, wich serves as "Extra HP".

In that case, considering that Primordial charms in the current environment are Solar-tier, not sure what the problem is.

There are no current Primordial charms. Only Yozi charms. Different quality. And no, Solar charms shouldn't be better than other Celestial charms. There is too small power gap between Incarnae to justify such bull.

Intelligence doesn't give you the best option flat out. It gives you the best option that you can think of, given your grounding. There are many charms to rule a nation in Exalted, but none to rule a nation well.

Let's agree to disagree on the first part. I firmly believe that collective brainpower of Exalted, stuff gathered by Sidereal spies and UCS charm "I do all things better than everyone else" combined could have found better solution.

And ruling requires no charms, but wisdom. And ruthlessness, embodiment of what Solars murdered to change Theion into Malfeas.

Problem: the awesome might of the Solar Exalted is likely shown through the lenses of hindsight. IE: yes, they are more awesome than the primordials, because they beat and bound the primordials. While the fight was going on, this wasn't necessarily the case.

They aren't more awesome, that much is obvious. Theion forfeited and that's why Exalted won. As Gunstar Lobotomia points out.

Additionally, your definition is somewhat flawed. If a flabby nerd attacked Bruce Lee with a weapon, intending to kill him, and Bruce Lee disabled him, that's not bullying, even though Bruce Lee is much better in a fight than the nerd. Neither is it bullying for Slaves to overthrow their masters.

Bruce Lee and flabby nerd are both humans. Wich means they are roughly equal. More with my viewpoint would be were You put your average three year old human kid in one corner and Goro from Mortal Combat in other corner.

And You know what history shows whenever slaves overthrew their masters ? Former slaves were quick to name themselves Grand Masters and cruelly oppress former masters without pity.

And that comparison is completely out of place in Exalted context. Humans were not some free beings captured by Primordials and tortured for amusement. They were living tools created to fulfill a purpose. Alarm system to rouse lazy gods into doing their work when Primordials weren't breathing into their divine necks. We don't really know their lot in Primordial Era since every still living witness isn't talking or have interest in the history as written by Exalts. Or is too crazy.

How do the differences between Solars and other Exalts not make sense ? I get that you apparently don't like them, but you haven't actually explained why you think they're nonsensical.

Because they are suposed to be the same type of being with cosmetic differences. Autobot made the blank Exaltations "equal" and Incarna only infused them with their own themes. Nothing more. And UCS, despite all the hype and nonsense, is still just an Incarna. That is even less important for Creation's survival than Luna's Silver Chair or Maidens.

Now, Wyld-Shaping Technique being classified as a Lore Charm instead of a Craft Charm, that doesn't make sense.

It doesn't make sense at all, but as charm that makes stuff I agree it should be Crafting Charm.

Should mortals be given some non-flashy, mildly potent but permanent-duration Charms for the sake of fairness?

[Salina]"Well, OBVIOUSLY!"[/Salina]

Creation sort of has a "Life isn't fair" thing going on, in case you hadn't noticed.

They have. Exaltations.

Could you maybe do a bit more work on translating these thoughts into English? :/ In particular, what do you mean by "moral breakers", "blue pants" (WTF), and "shy heroic suggestions"?

"moral breakers" - Breakers are what You got on Your car/bike that You use to rapidly slow down when You ride too fast. Moral ... perhaps better would be calling it "moral spine". Morality, the system of rules that tell You what is fair and what is not.

"blue pants" - Superman wears blue pants. The most famous heroic character in DC comics. Personally I believe he's heroic not thanks to being most powerful being on Earth (and neighbor Galaxy) but by sticking to his moral standards and not going easy way despite it being tempting.

Now imagine Solars as his equivalents, but without moral spine. Ruled by their lowest human instincts and whims.

So are you saying that you're dissatisfied with the specific mechanical ways in which Solars have been made more powerful than other Celestial Exalts, rather than with them being more powerful?

Yes. I am very dissatisfied with the way it is presented now. Leader doesn't have to be more powerful, Leader is someone You respect. Or want to respect. It has nothing with being strongest. Current edition of Exalted forgot that simple truth.

But you've been saying that they shouldn't have better Charms! Or that they should have "better" Charms that are balanced by disadvantages in order to make them... not better. Which is nonsense. Only better Charms are better. Charms that aren't better aren't better. Behold the power of tautology!

Allright. They shouldn't have better charms !!! They should be better at certain things as they Themes dictate, but that's it. All Celestial Exalted should be roughly equal, only better at their chosen Thematic focus.

Because if Solars are better than Lunars at being Lunar, better than Terrestial at being Terrestial etc ... what sense was in making other Exalted types ? Since Solars are BETTER ? Every available Exaltation should be Solar Exaltation or Incarna were bunch of .... achem ... mentally challenged rocks.

So you're okay with Terrestrials being inferior to Celestials, just as you're okay with Exalts being superior to mortals. Yet you're not okay with Solars being superior to other Celestials. Why? What about that inequality in particular makes it objectionable to you?

Solars are Celestial Exalted. Not some uber super new awesome Exalt above Celestial level. They are on the same level. The same way UCS isn't superior to other Incarna, but the same type of creature.

There is saying about being unable to jump above Your ... behind.

Do you honestly believe that violence is justified at least in part by being no stronger than whoever you're attacking? And if so, why? A lot of people do seem to believe that, sometimes even to the extent that they think it's somehow wrong for a stronger person to fight back against a weaker person in self defense, but it seems positively deranged to me.

I am in favor of calling things as I see them. Violence against anyone ? Fine, do it but I'll call it however I see it and don't complain later that I misunderstood. And yes violence is violence and justification is ... in my opinion something You shouldn't do. It just shows weakness of resolve. You made decision to be violent ? So live with that decision. Don't find excuses and act all teary eyed that You were "forced" to be violent.

In hindsight, I'm indifferent about violence. It's commonplace and no pretty words can change it. Or pretty thinking. Violence is and I prefer to be violent and name it violence instead of lying that I'm peaceful person and others asked for it.

How is someone being stronger than you a good reason, in any sense, to attack him ?

Ask this question to Exalted from Primordial War, as it was probably the sole reason they murdered Primordials. Or maimed the surrendering ones into Yozis.

Do You know the wording of Great Curse ? IMO it shows truth about the Primordial War much more than Exalted/Divine propaganda.

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Exthalion, You nailed it. Thanks buddy.

[TheCountAlucard]

There are no current Primordial charms. Only Yozi charms.

Yozis are Primordials; "Yozi" is a political term, not a different classification. Also, don't we have those Theion Charms from Shards?

Also, those things we have on cars and bikes are not "breakers." They are brakes.

And I'm still not sure what's up with those Random Capitalizations.

[Rikandur Azebol]

TheCountAlucard, lets agree to disagree. My random capitalizations serve to make imaginary pointing gesture towards portion I speak louder.

Yozis were Primordials, and they are not Primordials as right now. And I hadn't read Theion charms so I can't say a thing. Not everyone have Shards.

[Tavar]

TheCountAlucard, lets agree to disagree.

...
Agreeing to disagree kinda implies that both sides have correct points. That's actually not the case here.

[Hiro Protagonest]

TheCountAlucard, lets agree to disagree. My random capitalizations serve to make imaginary pointing gesture towards portion I speak louder.

Yozis were Primordials, and they are not Primordials as right now. And I hadn't read Theion charms so I can't say a thing. Not everyone have Shards.

1. Theion has a charmset. It works exactly like Yozi ones. It's not superior in any way (in fact, I vastly prefer the charmset of Malfeas. Besides, why doesn't the Holy Tyrant have any Holy Charms? It also gives no real reason for the Sun to declare Autochthon and his souls CoDs).
2. Other Primordials keep their Yozi charmsets. Cecelyne and SWLihN weren't diminished into Yozis until after the surrender, I believe, and they keep their charmsets (I think Dragon's Shadow became Ebby, since he was deemed "irredeemable" (not that he was really different before), and Adorjan was definitely transformed mid-war when her fetich soul was chased down, Kimbery might've also become a Yozi).

[TheCountAlucard]

TheCountAlucard, lets agree to disagree.

What Tavar said.

Yozis were Primordials, and they are not Primordials as right now.

They're still Primordials.

Lemme put it this way. I'm human, right now. If I break the law, and get my ass tossed in prison, I'll be a prisoner, but in no way does that stop me being a human. I'm both a human and a prisoner.

[Gensh]

1. Theion has a charmset. It works exactly like Yozi ones. It's not superior in any way (in fact, I vastly prefer the charmset of Malfeas. Besides, why doesn't the Holy Tyrant have any Holy Charms? It also gives no real reason for the Sun to declare Autochthon and his souls CoDs).

I know, right? You'll note that the epithet has been changed to Shining Tyrant, which makes things much less interesting. And really, it doesn't make sense because Holy is just a very wide subset of Bane or whatever it was called. Of course, that's exactly why it's fine for Sol to retain Holy even without there being a Holy Tyrant, but still, it's not quite so interesting.

2. Other Primordials keep their Yozi charmsets. Cecelyne and SWLihN weren't diminished into Yozis until after the surrender, I believe, and they keep their charmsets (I think Dragon's Shadow became Ebby, since he was deemed "irredeemable" (not that he was really different before), and Adorjan was definitely transformed mid-war when her fetich soul was chased down, Kimbery might've also become a Yozi).

Yozi refers to the titan occupants of hell rather than those who suffered fetich death. Malfeas, Adorjan, Sacheverell, and Szoreny are more and less confirmed for fetich death, but I don't recall any others being implied.

But yeah, despite being one of this board's top Yozi loyalists, Yozi and Primordial are roughly synonymous. The Exalted maiming removed their creative capacities first and foremost so that they might not create an escape from their prison. Even before Theion's Charms were released, it was fairly obvious Malfeas was capable of bringing more direct power and especially weight upon something, thus having the best armor Charms of the Celestial tier. Since Malfeas > Theion and Malfeas = Celestial in this particular aspect, it's fairly obvious that there's no such thing as Primordial tier. They were more powerful simply because E10 trololol.

[Turalisj]

They were more powerful simply because E10 trololol.

Just look at the E10 Yozi/Primordial Charms in RotSE.

[Tavar]

To not compare Exalted types when it's obvious like nose on person's face they are not even pretending to be equal mechanically.

...
Again, what's the point? That unequal Exalts are unequal?

Not really. My most awesome moments, whenever I played Exalt, were circumstantial things that just happened along the flow of the story. So ... if I can do it without charms doing it for me it means charms aren't necessary to be awesome. Just Role Playing. Mechanics supporting claims to be awesome won't replace actual being awesome.

This is deeply personal opinion, based entirely on ones own beliefs and desires. That said, unless one is willing to use quite a bit of handwaving, the allowance for physical awesome stuff is limited by the nature of the game. Social and mental areas are more grey, but even they have limits(without charms, you can't repair something in an instant or the like).

Efficiency of power use isn't having cheap and great stuff. It's communistic thinking. Efficiency is knowing when use of powers will have the greatest impact with the least investment. Ergo, in Dramatic Moment and not using Excellency to look cool while wiping your behind after session in "temple of thinking".

...
Great example, of course I'm not sure what it's referring to, as no one seems to be making it. Maybe it's Mr Straw Man?

In any case, the first part is also wrong: Using excessive resources for a given effect is, by definition, inefficient. That seems to be what you are describing, thus, you're describing them being very inefficient.

And Lunars ... designers didn't knew what to do with them so they made them horrible.

Lunars are horribly made, true. But that doesn't address my actual point, ie Lunars use the burn out fast paradigm, and it doesn't work.

Clarification, I were thinking on the War charms that serve to make better army, wich serves as "Extra HP".

Armies aren't that useful in the current model, though, and it's very easy to damage or destroy the. Thus, it doesn't really matter.

There are no current Primordial charms. Only Yozi charms. Different quality.

Wrong.

And no, Solar charms shouldn't be better than other Celestial charms. There is too small power gap between Incarnae to justify such bull.

Passive invulnerability isn't a big power? Or constant, essentially perfect attacks?

Let's agree to disagree on the first part.

Kinda presupposes that your line of thinking has support in the gameline, as opposed to the numerous examples against it(for instance, the entire setting).

I firmly believe that collective brainpower of Exalted, stuff gathered by Sidereal spies and UCS charm "I do all things better than everyone else" combined could have found better solution.

Umm...even if Intelligence did work that way then, there would still have to be a plan that is possible. Sometimes there isn't another option, and there is nothing that shows that such an option was available to the Incarnae or Exalted.

And ruling requires no charms, but wisdom. And ruthlessness, embodiment of what Solars murdered to change Theion into Malfeas.

What?

They aren't more awesome, that much is obvious. Theion forfeited and that's why Exalted won. As Gunstar Lobotomia points out.

....
That's not actually how it plays out.

Though I do like the hilariously large double standard you set up there: winning once doesn't prove anything, but this one time that the others won proves my point exactly! And Exalts modifying a Primordial with the primordial's Express permission, how horrible!

Bruce Lee and flabby nerd are both humans. Wich means they are roughly equal. More with my viewpoint would be were You put your average three year old human kid in one corner and Goro from Mortal Combat in other corner.

A human and a primordial are roughly equal for a given value of roughness. Moreover, the example doesn't even carry over to the Primordial war, because the Exalted were not the certain victors, except with hindsight.

And You know what history shows whenever slaves overthrew their masters ? Former slaves were quick to name themselves Grand Masters and cruelly oppress former masters without pity.

First off, that doesn't really have any relevance what so ever to the point. Secondly, while this is the case historically, I'm not sure what your point is? That once made a slave you should no resist and just submit? That's all I can think the this segment would support.

And that comparison is completely out of place in Exalted context. Humans were not some free beings captured by Primordials and tortured for amusement. They were living tools created to fulfill a purpose. Alarm system to rouse lazy gods into doing their work when Primordials weren't breathing into their divine necks. We don't really know their lot in Primordial Era since every still living witness isn't talking or have interest in the history as written by Exalts. Or is too crazy.

If two parents enslave their children, they've done essentially the same. Does that change matters at all?

Also, it's true we don't know much about it, except the fact that it consisted of the gods enslaved, untold horrors inflicted on lesser beings, and the Primordials not caring. So, yeah, we know nothing if you discount anything negative regarding the Primordials.

Because they are suposed to be the same type of being with cosmetic differences. Autobot made the blank Exaltations "equal" and Incarna only infused them with their own themes. Nothing more. And UCS, despite all the hype and nonsense, is still just an Incarna. That is even less important for Creation's survival than Luna's Silver Chair or Maidens.

The stuff you label as hype and nonesense seems to consist of all of the UCS's themes.

The UCS has been considered the Greatest of the gods for some time.

They have. Exaltations.

And? That doesn't make it fair, unless everyone gets them, and they're all at the same power.

"blue pants" - Superman wears blue pants. The most famous heroic character in DC comics. Personally I believe he's heroic not thanks to being most powerful being on Earth (and neighbor Galaxy) but by sticking to his moral standards and not going easy way despite it being tempting.

Now imagine Solars as his equivalents, but without moral spine. Ruled by their lowest human instincts and whims.

Solar can have just as much or as little moral spine as Superman. There's no real mechanical aspect for that.

Yes. I am very dissatisfied with the way it is presented now. Leader doesn't have to be more powerful, Leader is someone You respect. Or want to respect. It has nothing with being strongest. Current edition of Exalted forgot that simple truth.

Allright. They shouldn't have better charms !!! They should be better at certain things as they Themes dictate, but that's it. All Celestial Exalted should be roughly equal, only better at their chosen Thematic focus.

And that definition of Leader has nothing to do with Exalted's definition of what Solars are. It's from the old, epic method where Asskicking=Authority.

Moreover, it misses a gigantic foundation of the setting. If Solars aren't more powerful in some basic ways, then the reasons for the Prophecy and Usurpation stop making sense, as well as the Wyld hunt and the fact that the return of the Solars is presented as this gigantically important thing.

Because if Solars are better than Lunars at being Lunar, better than Terrestial at being Terrestial etc ... what sense was in making other Exalted types ? Since Solars are BETTER ? Every available Exaltation should be Solar Exaltation or Incarna were bunch of .... achem ... mentally challenged rocks.

The Exalted as divided at least partially because the Incarna could not make more of the given type of Exalted. Similar reason Autochthon didn't make Solars or the like in Exile: he can't make more, at least not with what he had available.

Solars are Celestial Exalted. Not some uber super new awesome Exalt above Celestial level. They are on the same level. The same way UCS isn't superior to other Incarna, but the same type of creature.

There is saying about being unable to jump above Your ... behind.

There's a saying " But Some Animals are More Equal than others."

Additionally, I'd say that the setting as it stands and was created doesn't conform to your conceits.

I am in favor of calling things as I see them. Violence against anyone ? Fine, do it but I'll call it however I see it and don't complain later that I misunderstood. And yes violence is violence and justification is ... in my opinion something You shouldn't do. It just shows weakness of resolve. You made decision to be violent ? So live with that decision. Don't find excuses and act all teary eyed that You were "forced" to be violent.

Sometimes its not an excuse. If someone attacks me with the intent to kill, then they, practically speaking, have forced my hand.

Ask this question to Exalted from Primordial War, as it was probably the sole reason they murdered Primordials. Or maimed the surrendering ones into Yozis.

Wow, do you even read the setting material before espousing your views on it? It might be a good idea to do so.

The Primordial world was a world of untold horrors, especially for those on the bottom of the heap(humans). Humanity attacked them and bound them to stop this, as it was essentially the only way they could do so.

Do You know the wording of Great Curse ? IMO it shows truth about the Primordial War much more than Exalted/Divine propaganda.

Your opinion is circumspect enough that I don't exactly trust it. Especially since, at least in core, it only says that they cursed their killers, which is exactly what happened and pretty objectively describes the situation.

[Rikandur Azebol]

What Tavar said.

In Your opinion, perhaps. Without their full capabilities as Primordials they are now, in my opinion, less than what they were before Exalted intervened.

I believe my opinion to be right, and You believe Your opinion to be right. Thus source of "LATD".

They're still Primordials.

Lemme put it this way. I'm human, right now. If I break the law, and get my ass tossed in prison, I'll be a prisoner, but in no way does that stop me being a human. I'm both a human and a prisoner.

Blinded and lobotomized ? With one track mind like broken record ? Yozis are permanently crippled beings, on both minds and bodies. Primordials weren't crippled.

That's why I hate Your opinion about "political difference" when it's more of a "physical" difference. As in difference between capabilities of a person without legs, obsessed with crawling, and another person who have legs and no such obsession.

Jade Dragon, what You said about Theion charmset indicates that people responsible for these charms decided to flush all that normal Exalted were speaking about Holy Tyrant and, if we stretch our minds to rationalize, Theion from Gunstar is a different Primordial from the one that became Malfeas. Simple, even if I would want to see Holy Tyrant's charms.

And Gensh explains it properly why Primordials are not Yozis. Both are still Titans ... but different enough.

[Tavar]

If you hold that 2+2=6, you can hold that opinion, but you're also wrong.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Tavar, I am displaying my own subjective opinions on the setting. From the beginning to the end. Continuing the argument will be then futile, because You do not seem convincing to me. Not enough to sway my opinion.

Do You know how I created my opinion on what "really" happened in Creation during Primordial Usurpation ? By reading splats while keeping in mind that each is written from the perspective of said splat protagonists. Core is written from the perspective of Solars, etc and so on.

The indisputable truth about Great Curse that I had read was the fact that Neverborn cursed their killers to suffer the same fate as them.

My opinion about how really righteous were Solars I created from reading "Dreams of First Age" and "Scroll of Fallen Races".

And I could keep on going, but I think it's equally futile for me to try convincing You to my own viewpoint. It's my viewpoint and I speak on things from that personal viewpoint and not from what books, that are only serving to provide the setting, and You do with the rest what You wish.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Jade Dragon, what You said about Theion charmset indicates that people responsible for these charms decided to flush all that normal Exalted were speaking about Holy Tyrant and, if we stretch our minds to rationalize, Theion from Gunstar is a different Primordial from the one that became Malfeas. Simple, even if I would want to see Holy Tyrant's charms.

...I'm not really seeing it. The Primordials are the same. Sure, Isidoros might not have an Apocalypse Jouten in canon, but everything else about them is the same. Autochthon has the Void, Theion is the Empyreal Chaos and the Infinite Radiant Is, Cecelyne is Cecelyne, Swillin is Swillin, Ebby is Ebby.

And Gensh explains it properly why Primordials are not Yozis. Both are still Titans ... but different enough.

Um... Gensh basically said that "Yozi" means "Primordial in jail". He didn't say they were different. In fact, he was countering my post that said that "Primordial, but changed" was what the Yozis were.

[Exthalion]

The distinction between the Yozi as they are and the Primordials is really only in the themes they express.

Autochthon, who is an unbroken Primordial is dying, lobotomized himself, neutered his soul hierarchy, and is just shy of pathologically incapable of considering the consequences of his actions. There are Yozi, most of them in fact, who could kill him will less effort than their souls expend on philosophical disagreements. The Yozi are not the Primordials they once were, but in most cases this is because of the oaths they swore.

The most radically different had their themes changed and thus gained in some areas and lost in others. Malfeas is unarguably better at being a city than He Who Became Malfeas. His is also better at ignoring pain and altering his own body. He Who Became Malfeas could have really benefited from some of the things Malfeas can do, but he couldn't because their legend was different though related.

You seem to be implying that a human without legs is somehow less then human. I see such a human running in the Olympics right now. They were lessened, but they did not become a different class of being. (Also, they are all crazy and always have been. The monofocus of their natures is part of what they draw power from.)

[TheCountAlucard]

Blinded and lobotomized ? With one track mind like broken record ? Yozis are permanently crippled beings, on both minds and bodies. Primordials weren't crippled.

And, if someone chops off my legs and lobotomizes me, I'm still a goddamned human.

That's why I hate Your opinion about "political difference" when it's more of a "physical" difference.

You hate my opinion, hm? No offense, but that's going a little far, don't you think?

And really, no, there's little physical difference, because ultimately, it's not the lessening you keep claiming. Pretty much the only things the Yozis really can't do are work together seamlessly, and escape, both of which are part of the fact that they're in prison. I can't even say that the Yozis can't move on; after all, Adorjan was able to move on just fine. She forgives her captors.

The reason they can't and don't move on? It lies within them; I'm sure it's very fitting in the venomous Yozi mindset for them to say, "Oh, it's the Solars' fault I can't let go of my hatred," but nothing I see actually supports that.

[Exthalion]

And, if someone chops off my legs and lobotomizes me, I'm still a goddamned human.

You hate my opinion, hm? No offense, but that's going a little far, don't you think?

And really, no, there's little physical difference, because ultimately, it's not the lessening you keep claiming. Pretty much the only things the Yozis really can't do are work together seamlessly, and escape, and the former is part of their nature. I can't even say that the Yozis can't move on; after all, Adorjan was able to move on just fine. She forgives her captors.

The reason they can't and don't move on? It lies within them; I'm sure it's very fitting in the Yozi mindset for them to say, "Oh, it's the Solars' fault I can't let go of my hatred," but nothing I see actually supports that.

I think this might have been the reason Theion had to go. It seemed to be his special charm to herd all the world-creating monsters cats into getting along long enough to get big things done.

Oh, that reminds me the Aftershock Titan (Ramethus was it?) Hyperfocused himself to be a combat monster. Thus unbroken Primordials can be hyperfocused insane and cut out/modify their own competencies so much to be almost completely different beings.

[Kobold-Bard]

...

Solars are Celestial Exalted. Not some uber super new awesome Exalt above Celestial level. They are on the same level. The same way UCS isn't superior to other Incarna, but the same type of creature.

...

While this is actually how I would like that aspect of the setting to be, it isn't how the setting is. Claiming otherwise is wrong.

Personally I want Solars to have better Charms (so more efficient, harder to resist, grander scope of effect); that's where their power comes. They just don't need to be better in every other way as well. I'd like them as first amongst equals, not to crap on Lunars/Sidereals the way Lunars/Sidereals crap on the Terrestrials.

But maybe I'm just blinded by my Lunar fanboyism.

[Exthalion]

A thought: Why is it that PPE only works for Yozi because of the Great Curse. I doubt that was spelled out in the death curse.

[Gensh]

A thought: Why is it that PPE only works for Yozi because of the Great Curse. I doubt that was spelled out in the death curse.

I'd guess because the Yozis are Held in Thrall. But we don't really know enough about the Curse or how conscious the Neverborn are to really give any weight to that, though.

[Tavar]

Tavar, I am displaying my own subjective opinions on the setting. From the beginning to the end. Continuing the argument will be then futile, because You do not seem convincing to me. Not enough to sway my opinion.

When one's subjective opinion violates the objective facts of the setting, your own opinion has a great likelihood of being wrong, at least according to the setting as it is currently written. Note that the books are written from an objective perspective, and we also have several statements on how bad life in that time, for instance in the Ink Monkey's Daystar Write up, as well as the fact that the books are in fact generally written from an objective view point.

[Turalisj]

Not to interrupt this hilarious to watch "discussion", but I've got a question-

Would anyone (and by anyone, I mean anyone besides the one person here who loves only the secondary splats and thinks the exalted at evil evil bastards) think that a SWLiHN charm that upgrades Mind-Hand Manipulation with various effects like Poison or ignoring Hardness on objects to be a bit too strong? I'm bad at charm design, but I've always loved the idea of building off of MHM to do more cool stuff.

[TheCountAlucard]

Ignoring object hardness sounds fine. In fact, depending on the cost, you might even increase the damage done against said objects.

Name
Cost: --(2m) ; Mins: Essence 3
Prerequisite Charms: Mind-Hand Manipulation
Objects are nothing before the Principle of Heirarchy. This Charm is an upgrade to Mind-Hand Manipulation; when attacking an object with Mind-Hand Manipulation, the warlock may spend two motes to ignore the object's Hardness, and double the raw damage of the attack.

[Exthalion]

Not to interrupt this hilarious to watch "discussion", but I've got a question-

Would anyone (and by anyone, I mean anyone besides the one person here who loves only the secondary splats and thinks the exalted at evil evil bastards) think that a SWLiHN charm that upgrades Mind-Hand Manipulation with various effects like Poison or ignoring Hardness on objects to be a bit too strong? I'm bad at charm design, but I've always loved the idea of building off of MHM to do more cool stuff.

Perfectly reasonable. We know there are other expansions to it, the make actual weapons for it charm is a well known example.

[Turalisj]

Ignoring object hardness sounds fine. In fact, depending on the cost, you might even increase the damage done against said objects.

Name
Cost: --(2m) ; Mins: Essence 3
Prerequisite Charms: Mind-Hand Manipulation
Objects are nothing before the Principle of Heirarchy. this Charm is an upgrade to Mind-Hand Manipulation; when attacking an object with Mind-Hand Manipulation, the warlock may spend two motes to ignore the object's Hardness, and double the raw damage of the attack.

Looks good. I like the idea of turning the MHM into a swiss army knife. It fits with the Perfection of Hierarchy's theme.

Maybe make it one charm, with repurchases available for different effects, and a 2m cost for each effect?

[Exthalion]

Name
Cost: --(2m) ; Mins: Essence 3
Prerequisite Charms: Mind-Hand Manipulation
Objects are nothing before the Principle of Heirarchy. This Charm is an upgrade to Mind-Hand Manipulation; when attacking an object with Mind-Hand Manipulation, the warlock may spend two motes to ignore the object's Hardness, and double the raw damage of the attack.

To get something poison like in:

Name
Cost: --(2m) ; Mins: Essence 3
Prerequisite Charms: Mind-Hand Manipulation
The true beauty of hierarchy is that it has a place for all things. Upon purchase of this charm the Warlock gains one of the listed effects. They may pay 1xp to gain each additional effect or 1bp for two.

This Charm is an upgrade to Mind-Hand Manipulation;

Objects are Nothing Strike: When attacking an object with Mind-Hand Manipulation, the warlock may spend two motes to ignore the object's Hardness, and double the raw damage of the attack.

Infectious Order Toxin: When attacking a creature with Mind-Hand Manipulation, the warlock may spend two motes to make the attack poisoned with a matrix of replicating order with traits equal to yozi venom. Any being killed by the poison becomes a crystal statue of themselves.

etc.

Maybe make it one charm, with repurchases available for different effects, and a 2m cost for each effect?

For effects like this I would go with getting one effect free and paying 1xp per additional effect.

[Turalisj]

I think the Yozi Venom thing may be a bit much. Coral Snake Venom, or making the damage reliant on the Infernal's stats, would be more in line.