General Exalted Discussion Thread XI: Great Job, You Broke the Scale.

[Exthalion]

I think the Yozi Venom thing may be a bit much. Coral Snake Venom, or making the damage reliant on the Infernal's stats, would be more in line.

Hmm, more fitting for Essence 3 I agree. Perhaps an upgrade or heretical cross with Spiteful Sea Tincture could make it Yozi-Venom analog.

[Turalisj]

Yozi venom is way too strong to be an easily available effect.

[Kobold-Bard]

How is a Hippo 2.5 times heavier than a Yeddim?

Are Yeddims made of wafers?

[Exthalion]

How is a Hippo 2.5 times heavier than a Yeddim?

Are Yeddims made of wafers?

The correct answer is: The writers had no sense of scale. Check the map for confirmation.

I suppose if you want to keep that figure you could say that most of a Yeddim's bulk is its shaggy fur.

[aetherialDawn]

Didn't Meschlum explain hippos already? They weigh that much for magical, fae-based reasons.


Or if you prefer, it is a species-wide Blessing granted by the Yeddim avatar in order to make them superior pack animals by requiring less food than they otherwise would, and it takes super-human strength to properly compare the two weights anyway.

[Lix Lorn]

...

I can make this work.

Yandere's are only dangerous if their target tries to say no. (snuggles her tonny)

A thought: Why is it that PPE only works for Yozi because of the Great Curse. I doubt that was spelled out in the death curse.

Because PPE is dumb.

[Turalisj]

PPE needs to die in a fire, along with every single "learn charms of another type" effect. If those don't reappear in 3e, I will be glad.

And is anyone good at Infernal building? I'm looking for a rather specific setup...

[Tavar]

Fluff-Wise, here's how I'd rule PPE: with the Great Curse in play, it only works on those Primordials who acknowledged the Exalted's mastery, IE the Yozi.

But, yeah, charmshare is bad. EarthScropion has a good model, though.

[Exthalion]

PPE needs to die in a fire, along with every single "learn charms of another type" effect. If those don't reappear in 3e, I will be glad.

And is anyone good at Infernal building? I'm looking for a rather specific setup...

Depending on your definition of good I might be able to help. I have a fairly good idea of what everyone's charms look like and I have read up on how to pimp MHM.

[horngeek]

PPE needs to die in a fire, along with every single "learn charms of another type" effect. If those don't reappear in 3e, I will be glad.

And is anyone good at Infernal building? I'm looking for a rather specific setup...

I partially agree with you, but I think the Abyssal Integrity Charm allowing them to learn Solar Charms should stay.

[Turalisj]

Depending on your definition of good I might be able to help. I have a fairly good idea of what everyone's charms look like and I have read up on how to pimp MHM.

Yeah... I've seen your definition of 'good'.

@Horngeek: Yeah, the Abyssal Integrity one is fine, since Abyssals are fairly similar to Solars.

But anyone outside of Infernals learning Yozi charms? Solaroids learning Spirit charms? Yeah... no.

[Exthalion]

Yeah... I've seen your definition of 'good'.

@Horngeek: Yeah, the Abyssal Integrity one is fine, since Abyssals are fairly similar to Solars.

But anyone outside of Infernals learning Yozi charms? Solaroids learning Spirit charms? Yeah... no.

Indeed... Perhaps the best I can do then is tell you what you should have at chargen to get to a certain build as quickly as possible while still being effective.

[Tavar]

Turalisj, what are you looking for?

[Turalisj]

Mostly a character that can create sleeper agents fairly well... I'm not sure if Infernals, outside of Cecelyne, actually have anything for that.

[industrious]

The Golden Years Charmset from the Ebon Dragon can be used for that. Give them an Intimacy of Hatred towards whatever you want them to be against, and another Intimacy towards patience.

[Lix Lorn]

But anyone outside of Infernals learning Yozi charms? Solaroids learning Spirit charms? Yeah... no.

I like charmshare. I think it's terribly handled now, but I like it.

[Exthalion]

Mostly a character that can create sleeper agents fairly well... I'm not sure if Infernals, outside of Cecelyne, actually have anything for that.

Will-Crushing Force+Hollow Mind Possession if you want the synergy with MHM. Also, at E5 Broadcast Announcement Prana makes your agents VERY nasty when you start using some of your charms through them.

[Tavar]

I like charmshare. I think it's terribly handled now, but I like it.

It's pretty much always going to be terribly handled: by it's nature it's something that can't really be balanced on a system level.

[Lix Lorn]

It's pretty much always going to be terribly handled: by it's nature it's something that can't really be balanced on a system level.

1. Make every charm not broken.
2. Only let people get charms from weaker splats.
3. Profit.

[aetherialDawn]

1. Make every charm not broken.
2. Only let people get charms from weaker splats.
3. Profit.

You forgot "Make every possible charm combination not broken" and "Preserve thematics"

[Lix Lorn]

Admittedly, the former is a problem, but I think it could be dealt with.
The latter isn't a bug, it's a feature. If you're in favour of charm share, you want some thematic bleed.

[Sanguine]

Charmshare even if not broken easily creates situations where there is a really cool charm that is perfectly balanced and completely thematic for Splat X but they can't have it because if Splat Y got their hands on it, it would be crazy overpowered.

[Kyeudo]

Charm Share forces a combinatorial explosion upon the developers. Take every Charm that your base splat has and every combination thereof and then multiply it by every Charm in every splat that they can access with Charm Share. That is how much work a developer has to do to ensure that Charm Share is not mechanically broken.

I'd prefer they spent that time instead getting me the next Alchemicals book faster and unborking the Lunars.

[Tavar]

Doesn't help: charm stacking, new capabilities, etc.

The only way to keep it balanced is to make sure that either all charms are the same mechanically(bad) or balance every charm against every other charm in the game(hahahahahahahahahahahaha). So charm sharing cannot work on a system level unless you have infinite time.


Plus, why should Eclipses be Solars+?

[Lix Lorn]

Charm Share forces a combinatorial explosion upon the developers. Take every Charm that your base splat has and every combination thereof and then multiply it by every Charm in every splat that they can access with Charm Share. That is how much work a developer has to do to ensure that Charm Share is not mechanically broken.

I'd prefer they spent that time instead getting me the next Alchemicals book faster and unborking the Lunars.

Doesn't help: charm stacking, new capabilities, etc.

The only way to keep it balanced is to make sure that either all charms are the same mechanically(bad) or balance every charm against every other charm in the game(hahahahahahahahahahahaha). So charm sharing cannot work on a system level unless you have infinite time.

As I said, that is a valid problem.

Plus, why should Eclipses be Solars+?

That's a problem with the implementation, not the concept itself.

[Kyeudo]

That's a problem with the implementation, not the concept itself.

On an implementation level, you have only two choices. Either A) No one other than Solars have any truly useful Charms and so Eclipses never bother to learn Charms from other splats or B) Eclipses can access cool toys that other Solars can never touch and so are Solars+.

A is boring for everyone and B is broken.

[Exthalion]

On an implementation level, you have only two choices. Either A) No one other than Solars have any truly useful Charms and so Eclipses never bother to learn Charms from other splats or B) Eclipses can access cool toys that other Solars can never touch and so are Solars+.

A is boring for everyone and B is broken.

You could apply a tiered system. Perhaps all Solars can charmshare and Eclipses don't pay a mote surcharge. I am not suggesting that as an actual rule but as an example of how the Eclipse=Solar+problem has different solutions.

[TimeWizard]

I like Charmshare due to the incredibly specific restrictions I put on myself. Having a Diplomancer eclipse who can know Factual Determination of truth is pretty legit to me, because it fits the character. Same with Cobra Hypnotic Method, Anonymity Through Propriety, Avoiding the Truth Technique, and Shiftless Untamed Beauty. Although I can see it being broken in less concerning hands, I imagine munchkins would find a way to crack the system anyways. Besides, at double xp costs and +2 motes, you are paying more for options than you do for focus.

I see it as choosing New V over Xykon, but I acknowledge that there is negative potential there. It's up to Story Tellers to keep things in line.

[meschlum]

It's a thankless job, but someone's got to do it!

Revelation of Brass Destiny

"Remind me why we're here, again?"

"We needed alchemical reagents and this was the only place where they were gathered in bulk."

"Which the Realm knows, so they have a lot more guards than you expected, including not one, not two, but three Wyld Hunts and enough godlings to simply know about any attempted theft."

"All you ever do is complain. Look, it's not my fault the fence we were using was being pressured by the authorities and turned us over when we tried to change that jade into local currency. Where'd you get so much, anyway?"

"Let's just say that it's just as well the Realm doesn't know our names."

"Oh."

"Oh? Oh? What have you done now, besides got us in jail, under what must be a hundred yards of chains - each - and sharing a cell with a babbling, unkempt, smelly lunatic?"

"That's a babbling, unkempt, honorable smelly lunatic to you, girl!"

"Well, I might have dropped our names to try and impress the locals into giving us a lesser sentence..."

"That's it. That is absolutely it. I don't care how supposedly reliable you might have been in a past life, this is plenty of evidence for the fact that the only reason you have so much purported knowledge from your previous incarnations is that they died off so fast. If we get out of this, we are through. Now. Where did you hide the lockpicks and other tools."

"Can I interest you in the teachings of the Brass Court?"

"Shut up. Well?"

"They're where I always put them. In the soles of my boots."

"The boots you left at the inn because you wanted to relax on the beach? Those boots?"

"Footwear is a state of mind, anyway. You're not schismatics, are you?"

"Um... yes? I mean, no? I mean pleasedontkillme?"

"Alright. Listen, mister whatever you are. I don't care about your Court. I don't care about your piddling empty faith. I don't even care about what you might have done to get in here in the first place. I have a moron to curse so thoroughly he'll never get near me in any of his future incarnations and about ten minutes to do so before the headman comes. So shut up and let me rant, damn it!"

"Why, that simply won't do. You need at least an hour to get a good curse rolling. Guard!"

"Don't bother. They're smart enough to suspect that anyone we talk to might be brought over, so they use deaf men. Besides, if we're talking wishes, might as well ask to be let out so I can really get serious."

"Good point. I say, guard! Bring in that pardon and get us out of here, will you?"

...

"I can't believe they let us out."

"Neither can I."

"Gack!"

"All right, who do you work for? The Wyld Hunt? The Guild? Whatever backwards half blooded king supposedly rules here? Or are you some moronic little noble playing at being a prisoner for the fun of it?"

"You know, the Brass Court could really use someone like yacgk!"

"Answers, or I break your neck. You're lucky, you know. A lot of men have died trying to get where you are. Play your cards right, and you might survive it."

"The Brass Court! I work for them!"

"Huh. Never heard of it. Have you?"

"No. And I somehow doubt that any organization capable of infiltrating this place to the extent of having the chancellor in its pocket - and burning his cover on a whim - could have remained secret this long. Well?"

"Look, all I know is that they're making a move on this place, and by now there's more than even odds that anyone you meet is one of their agents. I only remembered I was a member an hour ago, and you looked like likely recruits so I helped you out. That's all!"


The purported rulers of Creation do not understand what is taking place within their realm, for it is not theirs and never was. It is merely held in trust for the final visitation of the Raksha, when the host of the Fair Folk will have determined the proper manner in which to share the spoils and bypass the minor annoyances posed by its defences.

At least, that is what many of the more dedicated Warriors of the Wyld claim. Lacking patience, they have spent countless ages and instants troubling the Hannya and other powers, seeking a faster route to the Wyld's inevitable victory. Some of their more esoteric brethren have formed a new Court, the Court of Brass, and weave strange and potent magics granted to them by their unnamed patron.

The Revelation is one such. When its prophet has chosen a land that must bow to the desires of the Court, an agent is sent to its capital. There, at dawn, noon, and dusk, the agent seeks out mortal crowds and recites seemingly innocuous tales, repeatedly uttering a mystical word as it does so. When seven witnesses repeat the word, the agent leaves the gathering. When the three gatherings have proven successful, the agent vanishes from Creation, leaving an innocuous gemstone imbedded in the stone in its place.

From that point onwards, any member of the Court of Brass who visits the land affected by the Revelation has countless allies and supporters, hidden agents of the best kind - those who do not know they serve another until the last instant. Due to ancient oaths that still hold, the Exalted prove resistant to its effects, but can of course join of their own will.

5-dot Oneiromancy
Assumption of the Living Kingdom - the Revelation affects entire nations at once.
Emotion Weaving Style - anyone hearing about the Brass Court is likely to have their Motivation changed to "Be a loyal and previously well hidden sleeper agent for the Brass Court".
Untouchable Performer Technique - organizing a purge against the agents of the Brass Court is nearly impossible.
Adored by All the World - people openly naming themselves as members of the Brass Court find that the bystanders are actually sleeper agents.
The Naming of Secrets - anyone seeking contacts will find that the Brass Court has connections everywhere.

If you really want to make it work, toss in another Oneiromancy with Fall of Night Shadows the Truth, so that Exalts hearing about the Brass Court forget about it instantly. Just to ensure your agents remain quite concealed.


And to change the topic...

The Great Human

In the far reaches of the Wyld, a Freehold was being consumed by an agressive Hannya. Deluded by the constraints of plot, the Raksha were unaware of their imminent fate - all but a heroic pair who sought a way to ensure that something of their legacy might remain. Swearing potent oaths to one another, they sent their child into vastness of the Wyld in a cunningly devised Chancel. A scene later, they were devoured with the rest, and the helpless infant was set adrift.

An unknown amount of time later, the doughty craft breached the barriers of Creation and crashed into the ground beside a small farm in the fertile East. The farmers, who had no children, investigated and were delighted to find what seemed to be a charming infant. Adopting him on the spot, they made him a home in this strange new realm, under the yellow light of the Sun.

The child grew up, as children do, and soon demonstrated a range of unusual talents. Worried about the reactions of the locals in the small town nearby, his parents encouraged him to hide his powers. After many adventures - some of them romantic - the young man set forth for the great city of Nexus, intent on becoming a bard and spreading news across the land.

Still, on his way to the big city, and even once there, he found that his powers were often called for, as many countless dangers appeared. Hoping to hold on to his normal life, yet determined to protect the innocent as he had been taught, the budding hero took on a secret identity. Concealed by a clever disguise wrought from the treasures he had brought with him, he flew about Nexus and fought the forces of darkness as... The Great Human!

Noble Artisan (or Ornamental) Raksha
Strength 7, other attributes however you want.
Essence 3

All Consuming God Monster Stance - +3 to Compassion, triple movement speed.
Teeth of the World - the Great Human can shoot heat rays from his eyes, breathe on things to freeze them from afar, and perform other similar manipulations.
Overriding Construct of Fate - the Great Human can punch other people over scores of yards, without actually damaging them significantly. Property values drop, though. Incidentally, he can also call upon animals (a dog) that come from the same place he does, and are similarly enhanced.

Gossamer Full Plate looking like a red and blue costume with the underwear on the outside.

Adjurations / Charms with:
Gossamer Wing Flight - the Great Human laughs at gravity.
Bastion of the Heart - the Great Human cannot be harmed, except by magic, considerable effort, or a strange otherworldly gem.
Surpassing Excellence - the Great Human is even stronger than you expect.
Racing Dragon Speed - the Great Human is really fast.
Elemental Assumptions - the Great Human is unaffected by heat, cold, lack of air, poison, and darkness. To start with.
Knife Hand Dream and related - the Great Human can break things (and people) with a touch.

Oneiromancy with:
Air Transformation - the Great Human's cape can carry him into the skies with ease (grants Wings).
Imposition of Law - the Great Human cannot fail at feats of Strength + Athletics while wearing his costume.
Untouchable Performer Technique - the Great Human is such a wonderful guy that no one says bad things about him. Not even the tabloids.
Adaptation to Adversity - the Great Human is not harmed by vaccum.

Oneiromancy with:
Manacles of Virtue - the Great Human is even more compassionate than is possible.
Bestial Transformation - the Great Human can suddely look a lot bigger and stronger than you thought he was.

[Devils_Advocate]

You could decide on a case by case basis whether a Charm should only be available to one type of Essence-user. Which is... exactly what is done now with the Native keyword, theoretically. The problem with this is that every Charm now has to be thus evaluated, which is sort of a lot of extra work.

Another consideration is that there are already means for characters to grab kewl powerz outside of their splats' themes. Y'know, Sorcery and Supernatural Martial Arts. Which are already conveniently divided into tiers that different splats have different access to. So... just use things like those as the ways for characters to get limited access to effects outside of their splats' themes, maybe?

Maybe instead of requiring that Charms be dubiously associated with unarmed combat not to be associated with a particular type of Essence user, some such Charms could just be admittedly not Martial Arts Charms. Instead of having to pretend to be Martial Arts Charms because Supernatural Martial Arts is where Charm trees have to hang out in order to work that way, I guess because Autochthon was going through a phase where he was really into kung fu when he designed the Loom of Fate. It's a thought!

In one thread discussing 3E, someone pointed out that it kinda eats up word count to give every splat its own slightly different versions of basic Charms. This does seem to me like one of those things whose primary impact is to make the rules more complicated. And really, I don't see why some stuff less basic than Excellencies and Ox Body couldn't be directly shared too.

Also? This Eclipse anima effect is a bit of a pet peeve of mine because it doesn't make thematic sense for the caste. Eclipses are facilitators. They manage, they negotiate, they translate, they transport, and so on. Can they do these things on their own behalves? Sure! But none of their default powers should be limited so as to only benefit them. Look at how their diplomatic immunity covers them and their companions.

If they were given the unique ability to enable anyone to learn anyone else's Charms, that would fit better. But it would still have all of the problems that are usually mentioned and maybe more. And since their other two anima effects are actually quite good, there isn't really a need for this.

Like, I get that it was probably intended as compensation for some relatively lousy Caste Abilities, but surely the appropriate remedy for that is to make each Ability and its Charms not suck, which really is something that should be done anyway.