General Exalted Discussion Thread XI: Great Job, You Broke the Scale.

[Devils_Advocate]

To not compare Exalted types when it's obvious like nose on person's face they are not even pretending to be equal mechanically.

So... you agree that the Celestial Exalted plainly aren't equal?

Solar charms shouldn't be better than other Celestial charms. There is too small power gap between Incarnae to justify such bull.

Are you basing that assessment on Glories of the Most High, or is that "propaganda" too?

If you're saying how things work in your own personal alternate universe Creation that's radically different from the one described by Exalted publications, then that might explain a fair bit of the disagreement here. I'm pretty sure that most of the posters here are discussing "canonical" Creation.

Bruce Lee and flabby nerd are both humans. Wich means they are roughly equal.

Do you mean that they have roughly equal odds of winning a fight? If so, wut? If not, what is the relevant consideration if not that?

We don't really know their lot in Primordial Era since every still living witness isn't talking or have interest in the history as written by Exalts. Or is too crazy.

We don't "really know" anything about anything in an absolute sense, but we can make educated guesses. Some of them will be less educated than others, sure.

Because they are suposed to be the same type of being with cosmetic differences. Autobot made the blank Exaltations "equal" and Incarna only infused them with their own themes. Nothing more.

Where does it say that?

And UCS, despite all the hype and nonsense, is still just an Incarna.

As a general rule, nothing is ever just anything. I've come to identify statements in the form of "X is just Y" as meaning "I am dismissive of the differences between X and everything else that is Y".

So, you're dismissive of the differences between the Unconquered Sun and the rest of the Celestial Incarnae. Alrighty then, but your dismissal of those differences in no way diminishes them.

It doesn't make sense at all

Eh, maybe Wyld-Shaping Technique should require higher Essence, and maybe the rules for it should be quite different, but I'm not convinced that something along its lines shouldn't exist.

Solar Charms frequently involve engaging in the same broad categories of activity that normal humans engage in, but in ways that exceed human capability. (Otherwise they'd pretty much be limited to Excellencies, right?) So they can be allowed to fly because moving around under one's own power is something that humans do, even though normal humans can't fly.

Also, note that the Wyld is naturally mutable, and this is part of what makes WST work. Like, out in Pure Chaos, things just change in completely arbitrary ways, I'm pretty sure. It's not unreasonable in principle for a Solar to be able to take charge of and guide that process. Solars are good at taking charge of things.

They have. Exaltations.

Mortals don't have Exaltations. Exalts can channel Essence, which means that they are Not Mortal. But I see no reason why not being able to channel Essence should prevent someone from learning a Charm that only requires Essence 1 (which mortals have) and doesn't involve the expenditure of motes. So why shouldn't mortals get, say, an Ox Body Charm? BECAUSE THE MAN IS KEEPING THEM DOWN IS WHY! :P

Breakers are what You got on Your car/bike that You use to rapidly slow down when You ride too fast.

Oh, brakes.

Moral ... perhaps better would be calling it "moral spine". Morality, the system of rules that tell You what is fair and what is not.

I think the phrase that does what you want here is "moral constraints". But that's honestly kind of a dubious way of putting it because it suggests to me that a someone is forced to act a certain way, rather than choosing to. "Moral inhibitions" or "moral compunctions" might be better.

Personally I believe Superman's heroic not thanks to being most powerful being on Earth (and neighbor Galaxy) but by sticking to his moral standards and not going easy way despite it being tempting.

Exalts as a group aren't really defined by moral constraints. They have to have at least one Virtue at 3 or higher (Even before the Great Curse, this was the case; this holds even for mortal heroes), but Creation's Virtues are, basically: empathy, self-restraint, stubbornness, and recklessness. :/ Resistance to temptation is covered by Temperance. It ain't mandatory.

Now imagine Solars as his equivalents, but without moral spine. Ruled by their lowest human instincts and whims.

Some of them got like that, during the First Age. Some of them were like that even during the Primordial War, probably, even before the Great Curse and when they had far more important things to think about. They'd have been a distinct minority, sure, but nothing about Solars rules out their existence.

Yes. I am very dissatisfied with the way it is presented now. Leader doesn't have to be more powerful, Leader is someone You respect. Or want to respect. It has nothing with being strongest.

I think that you meant "No", not "Yes"; i.e. that you are dissatisfied with Solars being more powerful. Otherwise the rest of what you say here doesn't make sense.

Current edition of Exalted forgot that simple truth.

I'm pretty sure that this isn't new in 2nd Edition. My understanding is that Solars were conceived from the start as the top dogs, not just in the sense of being in charge but in the sense of being generally more powerful.

They should be better at certain things as they Themes dictate, but that's it. All Celestial Exalted should be roughly equal, only better at their chosen Thematic focus.

To borrow from Plague of Hats:

'At the head of the divine bureaucracy they placed the Unconquered Sun. When asked to build a theme deck for a Magic tournament, he put together a bunch of cards that had nothing to do with each other story- or color-wise. It stomped every other deck's ass, and when asked why he didn't make a theme deck he responded: "Winning is a theme."

The Sun created 300 Solar Exalted, who are each "Winning is a theme" god-kings. The Moon created 300 Lunar Exalted to match, who are "Surviving and adapting is a theme" god-kings. Each of the Five Maidens created 20 Sidereal Exalted, who have themes based on the Maiden who made them. Some might say that for Sidereals, "Cheating is a theme."'

He seriously is not even kidding about this. One of the core Solar (and Unconquered Sun) themes, even the core theme, is the capacity to excel in any broad category of human activity. In other words, roughly speaking, being better is their theme. More specifically: Being able to be better than anyone else at basically anything (but NOT at everything) is one of their core themes. And yes, that's a ridiculously overpowered theme to have. And Solars are ridiculously overpowered as a result! They're not supposed to be "balanced" even against other Celestial Exalts.

The Unconquered Sun has a Charm, Perfection Beyond Imagining, which is straight-up an I Win Button. As in, it results in him accomplishing what he was attempting to accomplish. With 10 threshold successes. There are some caveats, but still, he gets this Charm because being superior is part of his position. (It's specifically noted that this is not an intrinsic quality. My limited understanding is that the Sun is ever deposed and someone else promoted to his rank, then they get to be superior. Maybe. I'm foggy on the details.)

Because if Solars are better than Lunars at being Lunar, better than Terrestial at being Terrestial etc ... what sense was in making other Exalted types ? Since Solars are BETTER ? Every available Exaltation should be Solar Exaltation or Incarna were bunch of .... achem ... mentally challenged rocks.

The Terrestrials were made to be soldiers in the Solars' grand armies, the Sidereals were made to do a bunch boring but highly important middle management stuff, and the Lunars were made to be the Solars' bitches.

I'm not sure that this is specifically spelled out anywhere, but I'm guessing that an important consideration was actually making the Exalted Host insufficiently dangerous to just straight up murder the Incarnae with little effort.

See, the Incarnae knew that the Exalted had to be beyond their command so that the Primordials who commanded them couldn't just force them to make the Exalts stand down. The Exalted also had to be the sort of people unwilling to live under others' control, so that they'd want to fight the Primordials, and want this regardless of what their patrons might be forced to tell them. This meant that there was a very significant danger that, after taking down their bosses' bosses, the Exalts would then turn around and bring down their bosses too, so as to rule both Heaven and Creation unchallenged.

So certain compromises were made. Among these was the covenant stating that rule over Creation would be left to the Exalted. Which in turn meant that they needed to be capable of running creation. Hence, for example, the Solars not just being 300 Dawns and being good at various stuff outside of combat. See, they thought ahead on this. They realized that creating an army of unstoppable supersoldiers means that you can't stop them, and planned accordingly.

Solars are Celestial Exalted. Not some uber super new awesome Exalt above Celestial level. They are on the same level. The same way UCS isn't superior to other Incarna, but the same type of creature.

What's your basis for this claim?

Violence against anyone ? Fine, do it but I'll call it however I see it and don't complain later that I misunderstood. And yes violence is violence and justification is ... in my opinion something You shouldn't do.

So you're fine with unjustified violence but not justified violence? Huh?

In hindsight, I'm indifferent about violence. It's commonplace and no pretty words can change it. Or pretty thinking. Violence is and I prefer to be violent and name it violence instead of lying that I'm peaceful person and others asked for it.

You don't think, say, that the ways we think and the words we say can affect the amount of violence that happens, and that minimizing violence might possibly be a goal worth pursuing?

Ask this question to Exalted from Primordial War, as it was probably the sole reason they murdered Primordials. Or maimed the surrendering ones into Yozis.

What? No. The Exalted didn't overthrow the Primordials for the sole reason that the Primordials were stronger than them. That's ridiculous. Were that true, they would have turned around and overthrown the Incarnae next.

He is proposing that all charms be balanced around mote costs so that there is more transparency as to what a particular charm is capable of. In order to maintain the fluff assertions of the various power levels of each splat you simply assign them different allowable ranges of motes for their charms.

This way making charms and comparing the effect of charms would become much easier since you would only need to know the mote cost to know what sort of effects it should be capable of.

This does not preclude altering the essence pool formulas so the high end splats have enormous pools with which to power their more expensive charms.

The problem with that is that it makes it basically impossible to make a splat really good at some things without ramping up its general power, because the loads of motes you give them to fuel the things they're really good at can then be poured into other things.

For example, punching everyone in an army at once and doing it quite well is clearly more powerful than just punching one guy really well, right? Let's say that you decide that it's lots more powerful, and also that this is something that you want a Solar to be capable of. Under the model you're suggesting, this means that Solars get loads o' motes. This means that they absolutely devastate Lunars in single combat. But we don't want that, so now Lunars need loads o' motes too. Now it's looking like fights are gonna take a pretty long time. But then again, maybe not, because now perfect defenses are a thing of the past, since they were infinitely efficient and we're not allowing some Charms to be more efficient than others anymore...

See what I mean? It's a pretty huge change, and it necessitates fundamentally altering how Exalts work. And given the sort of beings that Exalted deals with, it can actually be rather situational whether being able to punch everyone in an army at once is better or worse than being able to punch one guy really well a hundred times. So it's problematic if the former implies the latter.

If two parents enslave their children, they've done essentially the same. Does that change matters at all?

If someone breeds animals for heavy labor, he's done essentially the same. Does that change matters at all?

Well, sure, it changes matters in a bunch of ways. For starters, "lesser" beings are less likely to rise up against you. Of course, there's always the possibility that some mad scientist who's disgusted with humanity will upgrade your mules into superintelligent flying cybermules with lazer eye beams who will overthrow their oppressors in a wild orgy of violence. And then you'll be all "Man, didn't see that one coming."

There are a lot of ethical questions that we can ask about such a scenario. For example: Is it worse to create someone to be a slave than not to create him at all, provided that he feels his life is worth living? If not, does it follow that the slave has a duty not to rebel? And so on.

My random capitalizations serve to make imaginary pointing gesture towards portion I speak louder.

Do you really routinely emphasize "you", though? That seems like it would sound oddly accusatory.

Always capitalizing "You" doesn't inherently make any less sense than always capitalizing "I", and given that practice I can see a basis for it, but in the context of English As She Is Typed, it's a bit odd. :P

Yozis are Primordials; "Yozi" is a political term, not a different classification.

Is this officially spelled out anywhere?

If it is the case, then we lack a word for Titans that are neither Yozis nor Neverborn, which would be a handy thing to have. It would certainly be more linguistically convenient to divide the Titans into mutually exclusive groups of Primordials, Yozis, and Neverborn, with "Titans" as a term for all three.

Are we agreed that this is a semantic issue?

Do You know how I created my opinion on what "really" happened in Creation during Primordial Usurpation ? By reading splats while keeping in mind that each is written from the perspective of said splat protagonists. Core is written from the perspective of Solars, etc and so on.

So are you saying that you do want some things that the books say to be lies? And that you're as a result disappointed some of those things are instead true?

Or are you saying that the rules are lies as well?

The indisputable truth about Great Curse that I had read was the fact that Neverborn cursed their killers to suffer the same fate as them.

To rule so foolishly and/or cruelly as to bring about their own usurpation, in other words?

I like charmshare.

What is it that you like about it?

Yeah, the Abyssal Integrity one is fine, since Abyssals are fairly similar to Solars.

I think they might be changing them to be more different, though.

I like Charmshare due to the incredibly specific restrictions I put on myself. Although I can see it being broken in less concerning hands, I imagine munchkins would find a way to crack the system anyways. It's up to Story Tellers to keep things in line.

This is potentially one of those things where a bunch of characters have the power and the knowledge and the motive to do something and yet don't for no discernible reason. For thousands of years. Which is a problem for people who like to keep their suspension of disbelief intact.

There may already be several other problems for such people, but that seems like dubious justification for choosing to include yet another one.

[Exthalion]

The problem with that is that it makes it basically impossible to make a splat really good at some things without ramping up its general power, because the loads of motes you give them to fuel the things they're really good at can then be poured into other things.

For example, punching everyone in an army at once and doing it quite well is clearly more powerful than just punching one guy really well, right? Let's say that you decide that it's lots more powerful, and also that this is something that you want a Solar to be capable of. Under the model you're suggesting, this means that Solars get loads o' motes. This means that they absolutely devastate Lunars in single combat. But we don't want that, so now Lunars need loads o' motes too. Now it's looking like fights are gonna take a pretty long time. But then again, maybe not, because now perfect defenses are a thing of the past, since they were infinitely efficient and we're not allowing some Charms to be more efficient than others anymore...

See what I mean? It's a pretty huge change, and it necessitates fundamentally altering how Exalts work. And given the sort of beings that Exalted deals with, it can actually be rather situational whether being able to punch everyone in an army at once is better or worse than being able to punch one guy really well a hundred times. So it's problematic if the former implies the latter.

You will note I do not hold that view and personally think it is untenable. This isn't GURPS. I was trying to parse what Rikandur Azebol was saying into a more coherent and grammatical way to facilitate discussion of his view without getting hung up on translation issues.

[golentan]

On the charm share discussion I evidently missed so much of...

I will point out again my Kilomote Fiend, who (before errata) had a larger essence pool than the ebon dragon at essence 5. The keystone charm in the build was a dragonblooded charm. What's balanced for one splat is not balanced for all, by any means.

[Exthalion]

On the charm share discussion I evidently missed so much of...

I will point out again my Kilomote Fiend, who (before errata) had a larger essence pool than the ebon dragon at essence 5. The keystone charm in the build was a dragonblooded charm. What's balanced for one splat is not balanced for all, by any means.

Out of curiosity what were the involved charms? I never noticed or heard of such a combo. Though I don't know much of DB charms.

[Tavar]

I think it's these two posts.

[golentan]

Out of curiosity what were the involved charms? I never noticed or heard of such a combo. Though I don't know much of DB charms.

Essence 5 fiend takes every purchase of hardened devil body, as well as By Pain Reforged and By Agony Empowered, and Devil Tyrant Avatar Shintai (composed entirely of purchases of Gargantuan, plus whatever 2 point cosmetic he'd like left). Activating the shintai and By Agony Empowered, he swells up to tremendous size and now has 107 health levels. He now activates the Dragonblooded Capstone Medicine charm, Jade Crucible Technique, and spends an excellency on it, possibly while screaming like a DBZ character going super saiyan, and stays conscious thanks to By Agony Empowered (which is maybe more literal in this case than usual). He rolls 20 dice (essence + medicine + excellency), averaging 10 successes, granting him 1070 peripheral motes on average which can explicitly exceed his capacity for the scene. He now has more raw power than the Ebon Dragon. When his DV refreshes is now effectively invulnerable because he took a perfect defense whose flaw is "it costs more if the flaw is met" and he can perfect spam longer than armies can attack him. If he's willing to wait, wholeness Rightly Assumed means he can activate this again in 107 minutes, but that's not good enough for some. Instead, he activates the instant recovery, healing all damage for a cost of 535 motes and reactivates Jade Crucible on the next turn. He continues this charge up cycle until he runs out of willpower somewhere between never and 5 actions, depending on stunting and whether he feels the need to activate a combo to defend himself against attacks. Assuming no stunting, average yield = 2675 motes in a combat situation. 5,350 in a noncombat situation. Average "maximum burst strength" is + 2140 motes in a single cycle if the fiend is willing to go all the way into last conscious agg level. Potential yields are much higher with good dice rolls, though bad dice rolls can cripple it (theoretically down to 0, though that's highly unlikely).

[Kyeudo]

And thus we see why Charm Share was a bad idea.

[Turalisj]

You forgot to grab hearthstones.

[Rockphed]

The Great Human

In the far reaches of the Wyld, a Freehold was being consumed by an agressive Hannya. Deluded by the constraints of plot, the Raksha were unaware of their imminent fate - all but a heroic pair who sought a way to ensure that something of their legacy might remain. Swearing potent oaths to one another, they sent their child into vastness of the Wyld in a cunningly devised Chancel. A scene later, they were devoured with the rest, and the helpless infant was set adrift.

An unknown amount of time later, the doughty craft breached the barriers of Creation and crashed into the ground beside a small farm in the fertile East. The farmers, who had no children, investigated and were delighted to find what seemed to be a charming infant. Adopting him on the spot, they made him a home in this strange new realm, under the yellow light of the Sun.

The child grew up, as children do, and soon demonstrated a range of unusual talents. Worried about the reactions of the locals in the small town nearby, his parents encouraged him to hide his powers. After many adventures - some of them romantic - the young man set forth for the great city of Nexus, intent on becoming a bard and spreading news across the land.

Still, on his way to the big city, and even once there, he found that his powers were often called for, as many countless dangers appeared. Hoping to hold on to his normal life, yet determined to protect the innocent as he had been taught, the budding hero took on a secret identity. Concealed by a clever disguise wrought from the treasures he had brought with him, he flew about Nexus and fought the forces of darkness as... The Great Human!

Noble Artisan (or Ornamental) Raksha
Strength 7, other attributes however you want.
Essence 3

All Consuming God Monster Stance - +3 to Compassion, triple movement speed.
Teeth of the World - the Great Human can shoot heat rays from his eyes, breathe on things to freeze them from afar, and perform other similar manipulations.
Overriding Construct of Fate - the Great Human can punch other people over scores of yards, without actually damaging them significantly. Property values drop, though. Incidentally, he can also call upon animals (a dog) that come from the same place he does, and are similarly enhanced.

Gossamer Full Plate looking like a red and blue costume with the underwear on the outside.

Adjurations / Charms with:
Gossamer Wing Flight - the Great Human laughs at gravity.
Bastion of the Heart - the Great Human cannot be harmed, except by magic, considerable effort, or a strange otherworldly gem.
Surpassing Excellence - the Great Human is even stronger than you expect.
Racing Dragon Speed - the Great Human is really fast.
Elemental Assumptions - the Great Human is unaffected by heat, cold, lack of air, poison, and darkness. To start with.
Knife Hand Dream and related - the Great Human can break things (and people) with a touch.

Oneiromancy with:
Air Transformation - the Great Human's cape can carry him into the skies with ease (grants Wings).
Imposition of Law - the Great Human cannot fail at feats of Strength + Athletics while wearing his costume.
Untouchable Performer Technique - the Great Human is such a wonderful guy that no one says bad things about him. Not even the tabloids.
Adaptation to Adversity - the Great Human is not harmed by vaccum.

Oneiromancy with:
Manacles of Virtue - the Great Human is even more compassionate than is possible.
Bestial Transformation - the Great Human can suddely look a lot bigger and stronger than you thought he was.

Hmmm, what sorts of adjuration would be appropriate for Superman? Things like "While darkness festers in the hearts of men, I will run faster than a speeding bullet".

[Plague of Hats]

Charm share has been poorly handled, but in this case it's more a matter of mote reactor Charms being one of the biggest problems in the system.

[Turalisj]

Charm share has been poorly handled, but in this case it's more a matter of mote reactor Charms being one of the biggest problems in the system.

Is charm sharing in 3e?

[Lix Lorn]

What is it that you like about it?

I like the options. I like that a squad of DBs can have a solar captain who helps out with the elemental bolts, or that an infernal can launch a tempest of roaring flame, or an abyssal can kill five people with one sword blow, none of which are standing in the same room.

And I dislike when this kind of thing doesn't work, because it destroys concepts. If you make a character who is a (very cliched) loner assassin with a trenchcoat, fluff dictates they're a solar or an abyssal. If you want to have them assassinate using fate-tricks, people say 'But if she's not an advisor, and she's so self contained, why not a solar?'

I like the middle ground. I understand that the mechanics make it very hard, but I think the goal is a worthy one.

[TheCountAlucard]

You forgot to staple hearthstones to your ass using skin-mount amulets.

Fixed that for you.

[Madwand]

Charm share has been poorly handled, but in this case it's more a matter of mote reactor Charms being one of the biggest problems in the system.

Well, I think that intend behind charm-share was to grant wierd powers of gods or elementals*; and it is just better handled as artifacts like leather bag containing all the winds, except the west wind that Aeolus gave Odysseus to ensured a safe return home. If it was good enough for Odysseus it is good for your' Eclipse.

[Turalisj]

Fixed that for you.

Equipment stacking means only the first skin mount amulet provides any motes.

[Exthalion]

Equipment stacking means only the first skin mount amulet provides any motes.

Which is why it must be installed in your sternum and must also glow. The Raksha have made sure that is the only possible option.

[TheCountAlucard]

Equipment stacking means only the first skin mount amulet provides any motes.

So? It's also a commitment-free way to enjoy the benefits of your hearthstones without having to hunt down socket-bearing artifacts.

And, a reminder, his character was before the errata, hence all the "I'm big" mutation-stacking.

[Tavar]

And I dislike when this kind of thing doesn't work, because it destroys concepts. If you make a character who is a (very cliched) loner assassin with a trenchcoat, fluff dictates they're a solar or an abyssal. If you want to have them assassinate using fate-tricks, people say 'But if she's not an advisor, and she's so self contained, why not a solar?'

Umm...isn't the Sidereal from the Core Book basically this, minus the Trenchcoat?

Or maybe Black Eye Shadow, or whatever his name is?

[industrious]

It does sound very Black Ice Shadow to me. Or like a valid Chosen of Endings, anyway.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Saying Sidereals have to be socalist advisors is like saying Solars have to be great leaders and kings.

[Qwertystop]

doesn't one of the Resplendent Destinies specifically mention wearing a trenchcoat or something similar?

[Lord Raziere]

I like the options. I like that a squad of DBs can have a solar captain who helps out with the elemental bolts, or that an infernal can launch a tempest of roaring flame, or an abyssal can kill five people with one sword blow, none of which are standing in the same room.

And I dislike when this kind of thing doesn't work, because it destroys concepts. If you make a character who is a (very cliched) loner assassin with a trenchcoat, fluff dictates they're a solar or an abyssal. If you want to have them assassinate using fate-tricks, people say 'But if she's not an advisor, and she's so self contained, why not a solar?'

I like the middle ground. I understand that the mechanics make it very hard, but I think the goal is a worthy one.

Yea…..there are some concepts you can't do with Exalted because the charms are so rigidly focused….when most characters in fiction mix things up a bit and include some DB with their Solar….y'know….mix things up….

[Turalisj]

Yea…..there are some concepts you can't do with Exalted because the charms are so rigidly focused….when most characters in fiction mix things up a bit and include some DB with their Solar….y'know….mix things up….

You want eye lasers with your Solar? Refluff any one of the three energy blast charms they have.

[Lord Raziere]

You mean the one that requires a weapon, the one that is expensive and costs wp, or the one I don't know about?

[Turalisj]

They all require a weapon, really. But you can refluff on where the blasts come out.

Or, you can be like me, and have a solar with AST and One With the Wave who can swallow Implosion Bow blasts and spit them back out.

[Lix Lorn]

Umm...isn't the Sidereal from the Core Book basically this, minus the Trenchcoat?

Or maybe Black Eye Shadow, or whatever his name is?

I have no idea. I haven't paid much attention to the NPCs in the core book...

Saying Sidereals have to be socalist advisors is like saying Solars have to be great leaders and kings.

Oh, I absolutely agree. But I've come across 'Shouldn't they be an X?' before.

It's for when you want to express splat Xs themes, but use splat Ys methods.

[Rockphed]

Why don't the various exalted have simple "proto excellencies" that work like the primordial excellencies(i.e. A broad list of things they can do, a short list of things they can never do, and one or two things they can always do)?

As an example: Solars are the heroes and villains of classical mythology. They run faster, jump higher, hit harder, and build better than anyone else. They were made to lead armies and nations in both war and peace. They can never espouse themes mortals cannot. They can always use the light and flames of The Sun.

[industrious]

Mostly, because they hadn't thought about designing Excellencies that way before the Infernals book.

[Plague of Hats]

It's because the Yozi Excellencies are about pursuit of excellence within a theme, whereas the others are about pursuit of excellence within a more defined field of endeavor. Any particular Solar is telling the legend of the greatest archer, or the most persuasive diplomat; he's not telling the story of how Solars in general are just all-around great.

[Devils_Advocate]

So, something that has occurred to me in the course of discussing Exalted.

Dawn, Changing Moon, Chosen of Secrets, etc. are Castes. With Terrestrials having Aspects. And presumably people in Creation call them Castes and Aspects.

Solar, Lunar, Dragon-Blooded, and Sidereal are... splats? That's not what they're called in-setting, is it? I kind of doubt that the inhabitants of Creation refer to their greatest heroes with weird RPG terminology.

"Hosts" maybe? As in "the Solar host", "the Lunar host", and so on?

But there's also higher-level difference between Exalted and gods and Fair Folk and so on. It seems like there would be terms for categories of supernatural beings, akin to how we use "species", "genus", "phylum", etc. to discuss categories of organism.

I'm kind of new to extended discussions about Exalted, and noticed this difference from D&D, where there are actual not-just-weird-RPG-jargon words for splats ("classes" and "races"). But I see the types of Exalt and also Fair Folk and so on repeatedly referred to as "splats", so does Exalted just lack such words?

Because Exalted is kinda... the only game I'm aware of whose splats are just called "splats" because... I guess they just never came up with a proper term for them? Even though it seems such a term should exist? (I'm sure there are probably other games, but I'm not familiar with them.)

You will note I do not hold that view and personally think it is untenable. This isn't GURPS. I was trying to parse what Rikandur Azebol was saying into a more coherent and grammatical way to facilitate discussion of his view without getting hung up on translation issues.

So noted.

Oh, also! I want to note that I actually do kinda dislike the whole "different splats have different XP costs and different numbers of favored Abilities and differently calculated Essence pools and their Excellencies work differently and..." thing that means that means that things that can theory be directly be compared across splats are hidden behind layers upon layers of mathematical obfuscation.

XP costs, for example, strike me as not varying so much that making them the same for everybody would radically change the game. And that way you don't need to write up a new table for each splat.

In fact, the differences in XP costs and number of favored Abilities seem almost to exist mainly to remind you how your non-Solar character is inferior to a Solar, which is what you really should be playing. This is most obvious in a mixed Circle in which the Solar progresses fastest and a Dragon-Blooded slowest, but even in an all Dragon-Blooded game it still serves as a little reminder of how you suck, relatively speaking.

Similarly, it's not clear how it's helpful for Sidereals to get a bunch more points than everyone else at character creation. It's honestly weird to have "starting character" not involve a fixed amount of backstory development.

I think that a lot of players would prefer for less in the way of direct quantifiable differences between splats and more in the way of different types of characters getting to do different types of things such that differences in power are a lot more abstract and even subjective.

I like the options.

Okay, but... Is it that you like having lots of options, or is it more that you dislike others having options you don't get?

Like... I can kind of even imagine that anima power coming about because at some point an Eclipse was like "Waaaah, why do they get stuff that I don't, it's not fair!" and the Unconquered Sun was like "You know what? Fine."

If you make a character who is a (very cliched) loner assassin with a trenchcoat, fluff dictates they're a solar or an abyssal.

WUT.

That's something that a mortal could be. Any type of Exalt could do that and might choose to do that.

If you want to have them assassinate using fate-tricks, people say 'But if she's not an advisor, and she's so self contained, why not a solar?'

How is "Because I liked a bunch of the Sidereal Charms better" not a valid reason for choosing to make this character a Sidereal?

Oh, I absolutely agree. But I've come across 'Shouldn't they be an X?' before.

It's for when you want to express splat Xs themes, but use splat Ys methods.

You could, y'know, just make a non-stereotypical Y.

Seriously, if the other players in your group think that a basic character archetype is limited to one type of Exalt, despite canonical examples to the contrary and despite the general idea that things don't work that way, the potential loss of charmsharing is not the real problem!

Yea…..there are some concepts you can't do with Exalted because the charms are so rigidly focused….when most characters in fiction mix things up a bit and include some DB with their Solar….y'know….mix things up….

Most characters in fiction don't have superpowers, much less combo platter powers!