General Exalted Discussion Thread XI: Great Job, You Broke the Scale.

[Exthalion]

I weep for the state of Creation.

I mean yes, at those essence levels a solar could almost certainly just punch the ground into lava or something but still, its the principle of the thing.

[TheCountAlucard]

I weep for the state of Creation.

I mean yes, at those essence levels a solar could almost certainly just punch the ground into lava or something but still, its the principle of the thing.

You mean at Essence 6? Not really.

[Kyeudo]

Anyone want 100 pages of free Exalted material? Specifically material for Autochthonia?

[industrious]

So, here's a question for the ages:

Do chopsticks use MA or Melee? Ditto for Forks.

Knives are obviously melee, but...

[TheCountAlucard]

Do chopsticks use MA or Melee?

Well, pretty much ANY non-"natural" close-combat weapon is going to be able to be used with Melee, but one could argue a chopstick counts as a stick, which has the M tag in Scroll of the Monk, so Martial Arts is an option.

Forks would be Melee, being tridents sized for folks with the Diminutive mutation.

[Tavar]

So, here's a question for the ages:

Do chopsticks use MA or Melee? Ditto for Forks.

Knives are obviously melee, but...

....

Does this relate to the current scense?

[Sodalite]

I apologize for, once again, my question being both wholly unrelated to the current conversation and wholly without the realm of canon. My question being, would anyone care to share some ideas on the repurcussions of a primordial soul-hierarchy passing through Lethe, after having been methodically reduced inorder to allow such a thing to happen? Canonical references would be interesting, though I doubt there a significant amount of such, if any, and are not the priority of what I'm looking for, that being ideas in general.

I have a couple of ideas myself, some shared with a couple of posters on WW forum, where I've asked this question several months ago, though I'll only bother to share them myself if you anyone shows any interest.

Thank you for your consideration, and for allowing me this opportunity to collect ideas.

As an afterthought, mechanical conceptions are equally welcome as non-mechanical ones, though I make no requirement of either, nor could I.

[Kobold-Bard]

So, here's a question for the ages:

Do chopsticks use MA or Melee? Ditto for Forks.

Knives are obviously melee, but...

By default they should be melee. However I'm sure there are SMA that would count cutlery for Martial Arts. Solar Hero Style counts any imprpvised weapon right?

An in the world of homebrew, we have the Orichalcum Chef Style and God of Cookery style.

I apologize for, once again, my question being both wholly unrelated to the current conversation and wholly without the realm of canon. My question being, would anyone care to share some ideas on the repurcussions of a primordial soul-hierarchy passing through Lethe, after having been methodically reduced inorder to allow such a thing to happen? Canonical references would be interesting, though I doubt there a significant amount of such, if any, and are not the priority of what I'm looking for, that being ideas in general.

...

Well there should be nothing in canon, because IIRC Primordial Souls being too chunky to fit through Lethe is why the Neverborn exist.

If they did make into Lethe, I suppose that means that people would be spontaneously born with a Primordial soul instead of a regular human higher soul. At the very least the Essence difference between these should result in a type of Godblooded (probably Inheritance 5 given the sheer power of the Yozis), and an alarm going off in Yu Shan if the Yozis are still imprisoned when they discover this, because it could be a plot to escape by having their Souls be a real part of Creation again.

[Qwertystop]

I apologize for, once again, my question being both wholly unrelated to the current conversation and wholly without the realm of canon. My question being, would anyone care to share some ideas on the repurcussions of a primordial soul-hierarchy passing through Lethe, after having been methodically reduced inorder to allow such a thing to happen? Canonical references would be interesting, though I doubt there a significant amount of such, if any, and are not the priority of what I'm looking for, that being ideas in general.

I have a couple of ideas myself, some shared with a couple of posters on WW forum, where I've asked this question several months ago, though I'll only bother to share them myself if you anyone shows any interest.

Thank you for your consideration, and for allowing me this opportunity to collect ideas.

As an afterthought, mechanical conceptions are equally welcome as non-mechanical ones, though I make no requirement of either, nor could I.

I believe that the quote in my sig which relates to batteries and radios was part of a discussion highly related to this, in that Primordial souls are fundamentally different from mortal ones.

Edit: actually, it was you who started that discussion.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I believe that the quote in my sig which relates to batteries and radios was part of a discussion highly related to this, in that Primordial souls are fundamentally different from mortal ones.

Edit: actually, it was you who started that discussion.

Yep. I was like "didn't you ask this before?".

[Rikandur Azebol]

Sodalite, like others mentioned. Primordial souls, or the remnants of these, CAN'T make it into Lethe.

Of course there is nothing stopping you from little experimentation on that premise.
Like changing Lethe to make them fit.
Or reincarnating these souls without relying on Lethe in a process similar to what we can observe in "Lunar Quest" blog-discussion-game.
Another option would be transformation of the Primordial souls into puny human souls, when they should be able to enter Lethe without problems.

Possibilities are many there. I wonder what would happen to Primordial soul who'd be consumed by Fair Folk with expansion charm to Soul Consuming Hunger.

[Kobold-Bard]

Devil Tiger question:

Once the character takes THotDT they are forbidden from learning (Yozi) Cosmic Principle. As part of the process they develop their own general Charms, do they develop their own Cosmic Principle that others can learn?

And if they do, can others learn it while the DT still lives or only after their Exaltation is set to a new host? eg. could an Akuma learn (Kobold-Bard) Cosmic Principle, while the original me is still around? If they can, what effect would that have on me?

And on a tangent, the book says that once the DT knows Swallowing the Scorpion, their free Exaltation will possess a Demon as a "irresistible Total Control effect". What if the the demon in question some how uses a Perfect Defence against that? I assume the Exaltation just pick a different target instead, but would the Yozi's know it happened?

[Lix Lorn]

Yes, they develop a Principle.
Yes, other people can learn it. However, this is unlikely to happen while they're alive, as they have to allow others access to their charms.
The effect would be simple: There are two of you. I suggest making out.

I don't think demons get PDs, but I would assume it would stop the effect. It's possible that the exaltation would try again and again until the demon ran out of motes, but it could choose a new target. I do not think the yozi would know unless the demon told them.

[Kobold-Bard]

Yes, they develop a Principle.
Yes, other people can learn it. However, this is unlikely to happen while they're alive, as they have to allow others access to their charms.

...

Thanks, and good point.

...

The effect would be simple: There are two of you. I suggest making out.

...

Well, that's an .... interesting mental image.

I see that being true for Yozis, since they themselves know their Cosmic Principle charm.

However a DT doesn't know their's, they don't have a 1000 mote pool, and can't learn it's follow-up Charms. Would they really be a clone, like a Yozi would be?

[Lix Lorn]

True.
The one with the principle would match it /exactly/.
The DT is only TRYING to be that principle. Assumedly, the one with the charm would be everything the DT wanted to be.

Personally, I think it's a silly rule. If I'm playing a game with DTs, they can take cosmic principle. I wouldn't call it a good idea since they're no longer exalted, but they can.

[golentan]

Thanks, and good point.

Well, that's an .... interesting mental image.

I see that being true for Yozis, since they themselves know their Cosmic Principle charm.

However a DT doesn't know their's, they don't have a 1000 mote pool, and can't learn it's follow-up Charms. Would they really be a clone, like a Yozi would be?

It wouldn't be a clone. It would be a new yozi (notably not bound by the surrender oaths) with all the themes and charms of a caricature of the devil tiger. The Devil Tiger retains their essential humanity (for a given value of humanity) so in the absence of shapechanging/mental alteration charms would still look human, think with human flexibility, etc. They could assume their shintai or activate charms to become inhuman, and they think better when they think like the caricature that is the yozi they invented because their excellency applies, but they still retain their memories, their flexibility, their form, etc. When they die, they truly die and can pass to lethe even if they have spawned themselves a deva pantheon. They're an in between being.

The new yozi isn't a clone, it's a political cartoon exaggeration of the devil tiger brought to life. It doesn't have a human body, it has a jouten which probably isn't even humanoid. It doesn't have the memories of the devil tiger that led to their personality, it just has that personality with the volume turned beyond maximum and the dial broken off. When it dies, it becomes a neverborn. The two don't share thoughts unless there's a specific charm that says otherwise, and the devil tiger could conceivably evolve away from the caricature of the personality, while the yozi will only "evolve" if someone starts amputating souls in the primordial equivalent of neurosurgery.

Still suggest making out though. Especially if you have some swallowed darkness style charms/themes in your excellency.

[Lix Lorn]

Still suggest making out though. Especially if you have some swallowed darkness style charms/themes in your excellency.

And if you don't, you're doing it wrong. :3

[TheCountAlucard]

So, from a discussion on the WW forums today...

Abjuration of the Maidens. You may have heard of it. It affects an area at least five miles in diameter, shutting off all Charms and sorcery within its area. It specifically exempts hearthstones and the abilities of higher-Essence spirits, as well as "the magical materials" (whatever that means; does that mean it shuts off artifacts not made of the magical materials?), and a higher-Essence sorcerer can shut it down by standing in the center and blasting it with Adamant Countermagic.

I'm curious as to what was intended by this spell - does having their Charms shut off mean that least gods and such can no longer oversee their domains? What about Permanent Charms, like Ox-Body Technique? If I have enough OBT's and enough damage on my health track, and I walk into this circle, do I drop dead?

I dunno what was intended by that spell, but I intend to circle file it along with null essence grenades.

[Amechra]

I had an... amusing thought earlier today.

Venus: Saturn! I just checked Samsara, and you are supposed to be getting all nasty with Sol in, like, 5 minutes.

Saturn runs off and does so. Venus is left giggling, because she didn't actually check Samsara.

And, something along similar lines...

I just thought of the Reclamation Yozi having a board meeting.

Top item on the list: Reclaim creation.
Second item: get Adorjan some earplugs (vetoed after TED did his whole "sarcastic repetition" thing.)
Third item (added after TED had to leave to attend to the whole Scarlet Empress thing): Should TED even be on this council? None of us like him anyway.

[TimeWizard]

I'm flattered at the suggestion, but Echoes of Infinity has about ten prerequisites. I think I'll stick to one or two Styles for now.

My party has obscenely powerful fighters, I basically picked up SMA to keep myself alive and do things they can't do. Two of them are great at one-on-one, one of them is an all arounder, and one is a Twilight Sorcerer. My character's actual design is to be the king of Social Combat, which he does rather well. DPC style seems like it would be a great match, but I wasn't overly thrilled. It will probably supplement CMS style when I have more xp to spend.

On a side note, is the proper word for Sidereal Martial Arts "Charms" or "Maneuvers"?

[Hiro Protagonest]

On a side note, is the proper word for Sidereal Martial Arts "Charms" or "Maneuvers"?

It's "Avoid at all costs".

Look, no matter how powerful the other characters are, they're not powerful enough to stand on top of Mount Meru and kill everybody in Creation.

[TheCountAlucard]

Look, no matter how powerful the other characters are, they're not powerful enough to stand on top of Mount Meru and kill everybody in Creation.

Unless the First and Forsaken Lion joined the circle.

[golentan]

Unless the First and Forsaken Lion joined the circle.

I still absolutely love the interpretation that Faffles is sabotaging the neverborn because he wants to rule over the underworld and creation, not destroy them.

To actually answer your question timewizard, they're charms. There are three categories of supernatural "skill" that exist in exalted. There are charms, which are dependent on the traits of the being who learns them and are the most commonly used magic effect. Most charms fall within the native charmset (note that this is distinct from the Native keyword) of a given type of being, being the natural expression of that being's essential magic. Martial arts are "non-native" charms, anyone with the essence and martial arts rating can learn terrestrial martial arts, any exalt can learn celestial martial arts (albeit only with great effort on the part of the dragonblooded). And there are sidereal martial arts, which come easiest to sidereals but can be passed to solars, abyssals, and lunar akuma with a suitable tutor.

Then there are spells, which work the same for everyone and can be learned by any being capable of the proper sorcerous or necromantic initiation. Such initiations can only be gained through a charmset or (in the case of mortals) special circumstances. Alchemicals have their own, slightly weird version called protocols which interface with the world in the same way. Fundamentally, the initiation allows you to take shape (sorcery, necromancy, weaving) actions, and those are employed for universal magical effects.

Finally, and on the lowest level, there's thaumaturgy. It's barely magic, relies on the natural law woven into creation, and can be employed by anyone who studies the occult in sufficient depth.

There are other magical effects of course. Anima powers and other intrinsic powers, artifacts, etc. But those aren't skills so much as a permanent alteration to imbue it with magic.

[Teln]

My party has obscenely powerful fighters, I basically picked up SMA to keep myself alive and do things they can't do. Two of them are great at one-on-one, one of them is an all arounder, and one is a Twilight Sorcerer. My character's actual design is to be the king of Social Combat, which he does rather well. DPC style seems like it would be a great match, but I wasn't overly thrilled. It will probably supplement CMS style when I have more xp to spend.

How exactly is that working out for him? Is he insane enough to actually cast in combat, or does he walk around with demonic bodyguards and have them beat up anything that gives him funny looks, like he should be doing?

[Kobold-Bard]

How exactly is that working out for him? Is he insane enough to actually cast in combat, or does he walk around with demonic bodyguards and have them beat up anything that gives him funny looks, like he should be doing?

One would assume the latter. Since the game assumes chargen is having your powers for a year, any Twilight without at least a couple of hundred Demons at any point is just not trying.

I know Materialise is expensive, but could a Sorcerer have a legion of Demons following him incorporeally, then have them appear at random around the battlefield?

Edit: Forgot to thank golentan for his explanation of how Cosmic Principle would work. Thanks.

[The_Snark]

One would assume the latter. Since the game assumes chargen is having your powers for a year, any Twilight without at least a couple of hundred Demons at any point is just not trying.

No way that could go horribly wrong.

Seriously though, sorcerous binding isn't perfect. The horror stories told about foolish sorcerers and demonologists who slip up somehow and pay a terrible price for their hubris are mostly exaggerated... but not entirely. Demons do have Limit tracks. If you've bound too many retainers for you to keep track of all your servants... well. That's asking for trouble. (Demons bound to guard a tomb are unlikely to gain Limit; demons who follow you around in immaterial form at all times are likely to rack it up in one way or another.)

[Rockphed]

No way that could go horribly wrong.

Seriously though, sorcerous binding isn't perfect. The horror stories told about foolish sorcerers and demonologists who slip up somehow and pay a terrible price for their hubris are mostly exaggerated... but not entirely. Demons do have Limit tracks. If you've bound too many retainers for you to keep track of all your servants... well. That's asking for trouble. (Demons bound to guard a tomb are unlikely to gain Limit; demons who follow you around in immaterial form at all times are likely to rack it up in one way or another.)

How does building an army of elementals compare in terms of power verse danger?

[The_Snark]

Well... it's less convenient, for one: elementals can only be bound to servitude for a month, as opposed to a year and a day for demons. (If you give them a single task you can extend their service to a year and a day, but a demon given the same task can be bound forever.)

As for power versus danger... hard to say. Elementals aren't as alien as demons, but that doesn't mean they can't be dangerous. Depends entirely on what you choose to summon. Ditto for power; in general, low-Essence elementals and First Circle demons are vaguely equivalent. Some elementals are more powerful, but many of those have positions in the Terrestrial Bureaucracy, making them hard to get ahold of (they typically have the authority to send subordinates in their place when summoned, meaning you need to actually negotiate if you want their help). Demons are in some ways more straightforward.

Mechanically, the rules are the same as demon-binding. I think it'd probably be easier to hunt up a bunch of elementals you consider safe/trustworthy than it would be to find an equivalent bunch of demons, but neither is perfectly safe.

I feel like I'm overstating the danger a bit; I don't think summonings go wrong as a matter of routine, whether demon or elemental. But if I were a Storyteller and one of my players had dozens or hundreds of demon servants... how do you pass an opportunity like that up?

[Kobold-Bard]

Plus if you mistreat an Elemental there's the chance that they'll report you and you may get a representative of their Bureau coming to "have a word with you", whereas nobody cares how you treat some poxy First Circle Demon.

[golentan]

Conversely, it's hard to establish professional relationships with demons not based on coercion. If you don't do an abcissic binding on a demon, you've already given away your biggest bargaining chip in res "things you can offer them in exchange for services" by bringing them to creation. It's not impossible, and there are some truly kind demons or ones who are motivated by profit rather than sadism, but generally you have to coerce demons. And that sometimes results in them doing "literal genie" order interpretations or otherwise acting to screw you over, and of course carries the dangers of limit break (some of which can be truly nasty).

Meanwhile, it's not only possible but in some circles standard practice to cut a deal with an elemental, or even a whole court. You establish a standard compensation rate, or negotiate a favor, and you don't have to worry about the elemental snapping when they hit 10 limit because mucking about with abcissics is optional. I had one character who rented out a powerful manse to an entire court for their meetings and living quarters, and took rent in the form of receiving a bodyguard and lab assistants as a 9-5 sort of job, and pinch hitters he was allowed to summon... I think he could ask up to 8 weeks of service per year from court members?