Annoying DnD stereotypes

[enderlord99]

If that's the case, and I may be wrong, I believe that draconic heritage isn't fact, but simply the most popular theory.

He's talking Pathfinder. Not 3.5.

[Zeful]

I don't understand what you're trying to say, is it that the heritage aspect isn't prominent enough? Or that the heritage aspect shouldn't be part of the class at all?

Both, actually. And this is where things get hard to explain.

In an ideal scenario, anything that can affect a character's progression as a personality (magic heritage, or the escaped clone flaw from Shadowrun) should be chosen for it's own sake, it should have a relevant effect (flaws should penalize you, magic heritage should do something), but it's existence in the system should only be for it's own sake. It's something you add specifically for all those posts explaining how I'm doing this wrong upthread. The Sorcerer however, was not originally created for that purpose, it was an alternate wizard for the people that didn't want to have to prepare spells every day with some variation handwaved in so that they looked different. Picking one line from that handwave and building that as the sole progression of the class is not adding something for it's own sake. Heritage Sorcerers aren't being designed as this thing you pick for exploring an interesting character backstory, it's for "balancing" the weaker of the two core arcane caster. This is like Shadowrun, deciding all it's mages are wize cracking drunkards, and adding the addiction to booze to the Magician Quality outright. It's forcing character traits on to characters (yes, you can refluff it, just like you can refluff the change to the Magician quality I posited above, but forcing a player to refluff a basic option of the game is poor design, especially when this is a change from a previous version, only added as a balance patch).

Heritage Sorcerer ACFs would be fine. Prestige Classes for Heritage Sorcerers would be fine. Adding default Heritage fluff and mechanics to the Sorcerer? Not fine, it will never be fine, because saying so excuses poor design direction.
And yes, this is about the Pathfinder Sorcerer, and every homebrewer that decides to make add heritage to sorcerers to "fix" them, which is an annoying stereotype to me, hence my posting it in this thread. I was not trying to derail the thread like this.

I think he's saying the second one.

He's also being just as confusing as [redacted] was.

I'm using game design to frame my arguments, if you're not well-versed in it, I can see how it could be confusing.

[Kelb_Panthera]

He's talking Pathfinder. Not 3.5.

Which seems to be causing no small amount of confusion.

[Zeful]

Which seems to be causing no small amount of confusion.

Well the impulsive and automatic addition of heritage to Sorcerers as a balance patch is a Stereotype, within D&D (as much as Pathfinder is part of D&D, which the board supports putting them in the forum with 3.5) that annoys me. Which sounds like it fits the scope of the thread, no?

[enderlord99]

I'm using game design to frame my arguments, if you're not well-versed in it, I can see how it could be confusing.

No, the confusing thing is that you were contradicting yourself.

As in, "always play either a spell-to-power erudite or a domain wizard, but never use cheese."

At least you didn't threaten to murder anyone.

EDIT: at least you've clarified it now.

[Kitten Champion]

Always Chaotic Evil

This trope in it's entirety. It's one reason why I really like how 4e made alignment irrelevant.

Not that it stops some DMs and Players of course...

It's funny how the message of so many stories are "don't judge a book by the cover" on the one hand, yet on the other were riddled with ugly=evil or black-evil.

It has some unfortunate if hopefully unintentional implications.

[Eldest]

I'm using game design to frame my arguments, if you're not well-versed in it, I can see how it could be confusing.

I am well versed in game design terms, as I am a game designer, and no. You actually have been fairly confusing. However, you have cleared it up fairly well. I disagree that the heritage is a large part of the class. I think that while the bloodlines mechanic is central to the "crunch" of the class, the flavor is mainly to explain why a sorcerer is especially good at one kind of magic or another, and can be easily changed. Calling all sorcerers rape babies was a bit much. The class "forces" you to play as being distantly related to a magical being (not even always, see the verdant bloodline) but the loss in player agency doesn't have a matching loss of character agency.

[Lvl45DM!]

Fantastic Racism in general.

See I don't mind Fantastic Racism in general, theres usually a damn fine reason for it. Dwarves hate goblins and giants since goblins and giants live in the mountains and under the mountains they live in and they have different societies. I'm not saying its moral but its...
sensible? mostly. But the fact that halflings don't just makes me feel like designers don't give a rats butt around them. They are also the only major race without an evil version. Duegar Drow and Spriggans but no monstrous halflings.

[Ranting Fool]

See I don't mind Fantastic Racism in general, theres usually a damn fine reason for it. Dwarves hate goblins and giants since goblins and giants live in the mountains and under the mountains they live in and they have different societies. I'm not saying its moral but its...
sensible? mostly. But the fact that halflings don't just makes me feel like designers don't give a rats butt around them. They are also the only major race without an evil version. Duegar Drow and Spriggans but no monstrous halflings.

If there was an evil halfling version it would be either "Deep" or "Dark" halfling

Always Good That BBEG can't be an Elf! He has to be a Drow because they are the Evil Elves! Everyone knows Elves are good, poncy, tall and thin.

Which reminds me I need to stick in some more Fat Elves and nibble dwaves since I have fat as well as thin halflings

[Gravitron5000]

See I don't mind Fantastic Racism in general, theres usually a damn fine reason for it. Dwarves hate goblins and giants since goblins and giants live in the mountains and under the mountains they live in and they have different societies. I'm not saying its moral but its...
sensible? mostly. But the fact that halflings don't just makes me feel like designers don't give a rats butt around them. They are also the only major race without an evil version. Duegar Drow and Spriggans but no monstrous halflings.

What the heck are Kender, then?

[Giegue]

Anyway, to get back on topic...here are some more...

Always Evil Schools: The BBEG is a specialist wizard! Can you name his school? If you said Enchantment or Necromancy, congratulations, because it's almost guaranteed to be one of those two! If the BBEG wizard is male, expect Necromancy. If the BBEG wizard is female and attractive, expect enchantment. If she's still female but old and/or ugly then expect Necromancy. No matter what, though, a BBEG wizard who is a specialist will pretty much always specialize in one of these two schools, with Necromancy being the more common and cliche'd of the two.

Dragonomics: Dragons are intelligent. Dragons hoard gold. Thus, dragons who live a long time have LOTS of gold. Why, then, hasen't a smart dragon decided to increase their hoard even more by investing said gold and buying out a massive mercantile empire or something? For creatures meant to be greedy, dragons sure don't have a head for business because if they did they'd be using all that stored up treasure to monopolize every business there is. Yet instead they just let it sit around and draw greedy homicidal hobos(aka adventurers.) to their caves to kill them. Smart dragons....very, very smart.

[Kesnit]

Dragonomics: Dragons are intelligent. Dragons hoard gold. Thus, dragons who live a long time have LOTS of gold. Why, then, hasen't a smart dragon decided to increase their hoard even more by investing said gold and buying out a massive mercantile empire or something? For creatures meant to be greedy, dragons sure don't have a head for business because if they did they'd be using all that stored up treasure to monopolize every business there is. Yet instead they just let it sit around and draw greedy homicidal hobos(aka adventurers.) to their caves to kill them. Smart dragons....very, very smart.

You just gave me an idea...

[The Random NPC]

If there was an evil halfling version it would be either "Deep" or "Dark" halfling

Always Good That BBEG can't be an Elf! He has to be a Drow because they are the Evil Elves! Everyone knows Elves are good, poncy, tall and thin.

Which reminds me I need to stick in some more Fat Elves and nibble dwaves since I have fat as well as thin halflings

Little known fact, elves are about a foot shorter than humans, on average.

[faustin]

Always Good That BBEG can't be an Elf! He has to be a Drow because they are the Evil Elves! Everyone knows Elves are good, poncy, tall and thin

And, at some point, the "gay elves" jokes begin to annoy a lot

Thank goodness Terry Pratchett put the elves into their Fair Folk shoes again.

[Menteith]

See I don't mind Fantastic Racism in general, theres usually a damn fine reason for it. Dwarves hate goblins and giants since goblins and giants live in the mountains and under the mountains they live in and they have different societies. I'm not saying its moral but its...
sensible? mostly. But the fact that halflings don't just makes me feel like designers don't give a rats butt around them. They are also the only major race without an evil version. Duegar Drow and Spriggans but no monstrous halflings.

Jerren (Book of Vile Darkness, p13) are corrupt, cannibalistic halflings who hunt down and consume those who cross over their lands. They spread plague intentionally, produce only weapons, torture equipment, and poison (and steal the rest of what they need), and are apparently all sadists who ritually scar themselves.

[Water_Bear]

Jerren (Book of Vile Darkness, p13) are corrupt, cannibalistic halflings who hunt down and consume those who cross over their lands. They spread plague intentionally, produce only weapons, torture equipment, and poison (and steal the rest of what they need), and are apparently all sadists who ritually scar themselves.

A Wild D&D Stereotype Appears!

Evil Races Aren't Subtle

Usually Good races like Dwarves/Elves/Halflings get to have prejudices or cultural blind-spots (Dwarven Greed, Elven Arrogance, Halfling Sloth) but Evil races must be completely one-dimensional Evil. Even Evil variants of Good races are vile to a completely unproductive extreme.

[faustin]

Jerren (Book of Vile Darkness, p13) are corrupt, cannibalistic halflings who hunt down and consume those who cross over their lands. They spread plague intentionally, produce only weapons, torture equipment, and poison (and steal the rest of what they need), and are apparently all sadists who ritually scar themselves.

Dark Sun´s usual concept of halflings.

[SoC175]

Always Good That BBEG can't be an Elf! He has to be a Drow because they are the Evil Elves! Everyone knows Elves are good, poncy, tall and thin.

Also not really an D&D sterotypes. Especially the FR are full of elven villians. In fact it has been so overdone that all gold elves are seens as "nazi herrenelves" by many people because of how elitist and racist they have been portrayed in the novels to the extent of wondering if the elves didn't drive the wrong sub-race into the underdark.

[Dr.Epic]

Elves are always either great wizards or great archers.

[Morithias]

Elves are always either great wizards or great archers.

Elves are always the greatest wizards even though the lesser tiefling is better made for a wizard. (Hell better made for the archer too, no con score lacking)

[Drako_shorty]

Clerics are only good for healing.

I actually made a cleric who is specifically very skilled in combat as well, I took Weapon Focus (Mace) and beat someone to death with it (He was the BBEG who was a henchman to an even bigger BBEG) He was however also insanely skilled with healing and was given power from his gods that made him a little OP, but it was a solo and so she just made tougher foes. I also beat a god down with their bane item.

-The Airship will always have Magical flapping wings, or Propeller blades, it can never be advanced looking.

One of my favorite campaigns we has an airship that was run with a magical engine that cast an infinite fly spell on it and there were controls that allowed it to land and sail. It looked like a normal boat.

[SpamandEggs]

A lich must always be a rotting skeleton, even though, by definition, they are high-level spellcasters who could make themselves look like whatever they want with some fairly simple spells.

Seriously, the fact that liches live isolated lives is stupid. They have magic, they could be anyone.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Technicly speakng, a Lich doesn't even need to look undead. Meaning that you could look perfectly normal and still be a lich.

[Grimsage Matt]

Undead count as corpses, and gentle repose is a 1st level spell. They never age for some reason....

[Archpaladin Zousha]

If there was an evil halfling version it would be either "Deep" or "Dark" halfling

Always Good That BBEG can't be an Elf! He has to be a Drow because they are the Evil Elves! Everyone knows Elves are good, poncy, tall and thin.

Which reminds me I need to stick in some more Fat Elves and nibble dwaves since I have fat as well as thin halflings

This frustrates me to no end. As someone who prefers a heftier physique, it ultimately means elves don't excite me at all. What is it about them that demands they have an ungodly fast metabolism?

[Greyfeld85]

Every Druid is a Hippie: There are four possible alignments a Druid can have, why does there only seem to be one personality? To say nothing of the fact that what "nature's way" is isn't exactly set in stone.

My two favorite druid characters were a plant-centric herbalist that loved to attend parties and mingle with the "human folk" in his spare time, and a city-dwelling druid who was part of the local grove that worked alongside the local farmers to increase crop production.

Unfortunately, both game fell through not a week after they started.

[Maugan Ra]

Dragonomics: Dragons are intelligent. Dragons hoard gold. Thus, dragons who live a long time have LOTS of gold. Why, then, hasen't a smart dragon decided to increase their hoard even more by investing said gold and buying out a massive mercantile empire or something? For creatures meant to be greedy, dragons sure don't have a head for business because if they did they'd be using all that stored up treasure to monopolize every business there is. Yet instead they just let it sit around and draw greedy homicidal hobos(aka adventurers.) to their caves to kill them. Smart dragons....very, very smart.

I'd like to introduce you to the Great Dragon Lofwyr, CEO of Saeder-Krupp Heavy Industries, and one of the richest beings in the world of Shadowrun. He wields significantly more financial and political influence than most countries, and combined with the sheer physical and magical abilities that come from being a Greater Dragon, he has a decent claim at being the most dangerous individual on Earth.

He has a wonderful reputation among Shadowrunners as both paying marvelously for success, and delivering truly terrifying reprisals for incompetence and any hostilities taken against his interests. A smart team sticks an extra 20% on to their price at the slightest mention that they'll be going against Saeder-Krupp, and only the most idiotic accept direct work against the dragons pet projects.

I do wish there were more dragons like him in fantasy...

[Morithias]

Snip

What do you think of my dragons?

In the beginning there were 4 races, the fiends, the celestials, the dragons, and the humans. During their human beginnings many of the humans were too weak or uneducated to aid themselves against the harsh realities of nature, and as no Humans had ascended to heaven to become the first gods the creator could not make clerics to aid them (a no-interference clause, the creator has), as such the raising and guidance of humans was left to the dragons, especially the great platinum dragon bahamut (sp?).

A few thousand years later the humans have become self-self-sufficient, along with the other races that either evolved or were created via cross-breeding wit the celesials, fiends and dragons (elves, dwarves, halflings, etc), and the dragons have retreated into hiding, however they are there. Watching for when they are needed, and taking human form to continue their quest for the creator, to make a world where the creator is no longer needed, yet free will still exists the "Utopia" they call it.

[faustin]

I'd like to introduce you to the Great Dragon Lofwyr, CEO of Saeder-Krupp Heavy Industries, and one of the richest beings in the world of Shadowrun. He wields significantly more financial and political influence than most countries, and combined with the sheer physical and magical abilities that come from being a Greater Dragon, he has a decent claim at being the most dangerous individual on Earth.

He has a wonderful reputation among Shadowrunners as both paying marvelously for success, and delivering truly terrifying reprisals for incompetence and any hostilities taken against his interests. A smart team sticks an extra 20% on to their price at the slightest mention that they'll be going against Saeder-Krupp, and only the most idiotic accept direct work against the dragons pet projects.

I do wish there were more dragons like him in fantasy

I mentioned Lofwyr earlier. Don´t forget he has a seat on the Elven Council too. As far I know, Samuel Verner is the only shadowrunner who has managed to mess with him and get away (and only because he was a protagonist).

[Hyena]

The druids are either hippies or man-killing animal wrongs eco-terrorists. Okay, I'm pretty guilty of this.