OOTS #859 - The Discussion Thread

[One Skunk Todd]

I wonder if there's a chance V was caught by Holy Word. That would give a literal meaning to fleeing in a blind panic. Also, has HW dispersed the smoke?

[Kish]

Unless the smoke has an alignment, Holy Word didn't do anything to it. (If it does and isn't good, then it is now blind smoke. Or deaf smoke. Or paralyzed smoke. Or dead smoke. In none of those cases is it going anywhere.)

[Mike Havran]

Yes, but don't underestimate the elf. I doubt there is anyone in the LG who can defeat him/her.

Z had the edge both times those two met in arcane duel. V prevailed thanks to factors she cannot use anymore. Of course she may always come up with something new, but that is still far cry from being invincible to the LG.

[Kish]

Z had the edge both times those two met in arcane duel. V prevailed thanks to factors she cannot use anymore.

Oh?

There is no other enemy around whom Vaarsuvius could mind control?

[Bulldog Psion]

Unless the smoke has an alignment, Holy Word didn't do anything to it. (If it does and isn't good, then it is now blind smoke. Or deaf smoke. Or paralyzed smoke. Or dead smoke. In none of those cases is it going anywhere.)

I just wanted to say that this made me chuckle in real life. Thank you for lightening my morning.

[Emperordaniel]

Unless the smoke has an alignment, Holy Word didn't do anything to it. (If it does and isn't good, then it is now blind smoke. Or deaf smoke. Or paralyzed smoke. Or dead smoke. In none of those cases is it going anywhere.)

And now I have the mental image of Good and Evil cleric smokes duking it out with spells like Blasphemy and Holy Word in some long-forgotten volcanic cavern.

[Mike Havran]

Oh?

There is no other enemy around whom Vaarsuvius could mind control?

Nobody who is as dangerous as the ranged attacker was, and most of remaining enemies have quite good Will saves as well. I don't see V using Dominate Person/Monster anymore. Do you?

[Kish]

Nobody who is as dangerous as the ranged attacker was, and most of remaining enemies have quite good Will saves as well. I don't see V using Dominate Person/Monster anymore. Do you?

Why not? Tarquin, as the Linear Guild's fighter, would be the obvious choice, of course. And I don't know why you think he'd have a good Will save; he might have a Wisdom bonus and is unlikely to have the crippling penalty that Yukyuk had, but he still appears to be primarily or solely a fighter, which means however-many levels of bad Will save--just like Roy, actually.

Vaarsuvius is unlikely to Dominate the team's primary archer (Sabine), even though her Will save is almost certainly pathetic (+7 for her six racial hit dice, Wisdom penalty, not much help from her rogue levels), because she's not a person and Dominate Monster is ninth level. On the other hand, based on the precedent of what Suggestion did for Vaarsuvius against the young black dragon, it would seem simple enough for Vaarsuvius to suggest that Sabine kill Zz'dtri.

[Xelbiuj]

He already practically defeated the entire Order by himself once


One successful round against the Order minus their caster hardly qualifies as "practically defeating them"

[Emperordaniel]

He already practically defeated the entire Order by himself once


One successful round against the Order minus their caster hardly qualifies as "practically defeating them"

Let's see... he knocked Roy down into the minuses, tossed Durkon at least several feet back into the pyramid, severely injured Belkar (from all appearances at least), and ensured that Haley's arrows were next to useless during most of the fight... I'd say that counts as practically defeating them. The only real damage he took was from Roy and Haley stabbing him - and both of those injuries were quickly healed away by his Ring of Regeneration.

[SoC175]

Ugh.

Tarquin's level relative to Durkon's caster level matters very much for Holy Word.

If the Holy Word deafens but does not blind Tarquin, we can say "Tarquin is definitely exactly one level higher than Durkon." And if it both deafens and blinds Tarquin, then we can say "Tarquin is no higher level than Durkon."

No, I meant that doesn't matter for fighting against the order. A 13th level fighter vs. a 14th level fighter is a difference so small it's entirely swallowed up the the randomness of dice rolls.

So if he's merely one level higher than Roy and Belkar there's no way he should stand a chance in a melee with both of them

[Mike Havran]

Why not? Tarquin, as the Linear Guild's fighter, would be the obvious choice, of course. And I don't know why you think he'd have a good Will save; he might have a Wisdom bonus and is unlikely to have the crippling penalty that Yukyuk had, but he still appears to be primarily or solely a fighter, which means however-many levels of bad Will save--just like Roy, actually.

Vaarsuvius is unlikely to Dominate the team's primary archer (Sabine), even though her Will save is almost certainly pathetic (+7 for her six racial hit dice, Wisdom penalty, not much help from her rogue levels), because she's not a person and Dominate Monster is ninth level. On the other hand, based on the precedent of what Suggestion did for Vaarsuvius against the young black dragon, it would seem simple enough for Vaarsuvius to suggest that Sabine kill Zz'dtri.

Well, Tarquin was actually looking forward to the battle against the entire Order even though he knew well that there will be a bard and a cleric against him, so I think he does have some reason not to be worried about Will saves (he shrugged off Hold Person nonchalantly).

Sabine is a questionable target. It is doubtful whether she retained the crossbow that was taken from her in Azure City or got a new one, but she doesn't seem to use ranged attacks anymore. And in this particular battle, if her Will saves suck she is probably back in her home plane right now.

[oppyu]

I wonder if there's a chance V was caught by Holy Word. That would give a literal meaning to fleeing in a blind panic. Also, has HW dispersed the smoke?

Oh... that would suck. Just passwalling under a certain spot, randomly passing a listen check and then desperately wishing you weren't true neutral.

Let's see... he knocked Roy down into the minuses, tossed Durkon at least several feet back into the pyramid, severely injured Belkar (from all appearances at least), and ensured that Haley's arrows were next to useless during most of the fight... I'd say that counts as practically defeating them. The only real damage he took was from Roy and Haley stabbing him - and both of those injuries were quickly healed away by his Ring of Regeneration.

Technically Malack's intervention knocked Roy into the minuses. The Order weren't winning when Malack intervened, but they had re-entered the fight thanks to Elan's powers of "try, try, try, try not to get too much in anyone's way!"

[Emperordaniel]

Technically Malack's intervention knocked Roy into the minuses. The Order weren't winning when Malack intervened, but they had re-entered the fight thanks to Elan's powers of "try, try, try, try not to get too much in anyone's way!"

Yeah, that's true. Tarquin had stunned Roy (or maybe something else; all these similar conditions can sometimes get confusing) and had knocked him to the ground moments before the flame strike though, and with Malack's statement that T was just showing off, I'm personally kind of inclined to believe that Roy would have gone down within a few rounds anyways.

[Bulldog Psion]

Let's see... he knocked Roy down into the minuses, tossed Durkon at least several feet back into the pyramid, severely injured Belkar (from all appearances at least), and ensured that Haley's arrows were next to useless during most of the fight... I'd say that counts as practically defeating them. The only real damage he took was from Roy and Haley stabbing him - and both of those injuries were quickly healed away by his Ring of Regeneration.

And on top of that, we have confirmation from Malack that he was just horsing around and having fun doing all of that.

Since Malack was mad at him at the time, that's a more accurate assessment, IMO, than if Tarquin had just been bragging.

Edit: ninja'ed.

[Skull the Troll]

It amazes me how much time we can spend arguing over whether a character was more likely to say "me too" or "Nor I," after we've already been shown the answer by the person who in fact invented the character.

If your opinion of a character in OotS differs from the Giant's, then you are in fact mistaken - since the only knowledge you have about that character came from decisions he made and then chose to show you..

One word: Midi-chlorians

[rewinn]

Unless the smoke has an alignment, Holy Word didn't do anything to it. (If it does and isn't good, then it is now blind smoke. Or deaf smoke. Or paralyzed smoke. Or dead smoke. In none of those cases is it going anywhere.)

I'd heard of Holy Smoke! but I think it's in a different cartoon altogether...

Spoiler

Show

I had fully intended to insert an image but it appears DC has carefully protected its intellectual property. I did find some "Holy Smoke Batman!" audiobits here: http://holysmokesbatman.com/

[Emperordaniel]

I'd heard of Holy Smoke! but I think it's in a different cartoon altogether...

By the way, I was just thinking: if (un)holy smoke counts as a variety of air elemental, killing it via Holy Word would actually banish it to its home plane, wouldn't it? That could explain why it isn't in the last panel.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Oh huh I missed that Durkon was walking out of the wall there.

Tactical Genius at its finest.

[SinsI]

If the Holy Word deafens but does not blind Tarquin, we can say "Tarquin is definitely exactly one level higher than Durkon." And if it both deafens and blinds Tarquin, then we can say "Tarquin is no higher level than Durkon."

1) They are in a cloud of smoke, so blindness won't be noticeable
2) Tarquin has ring of True Seeing, so RAW he would still be able to "see things as they are" despite being blind (if not for the smoke, that is).

[FujinAkari]

1) They are in a cloud of smoke, so blindness won't be noticeable
2) Tarquin has ring of True Seeing, so RAW he would still be able to "see things as they are" despite being blind (if not for the smoke, that is).

Incorrect. The ring of true seeing allows the user to see as they really are, but it does have a prerequisite of the user having to be able to see. If the user is unable to see, then the true sight cannot be bestowed.

[Chance Gardener]

I'm sorry, but I've gone thru all the responses to the comic to date, and other than a few mildly disparaging remarks about it, I have to say the pun in this comic is magnificently awesome and am utterly astonished that I appear to be the only one who feels that way.

The fireplace at Callahan's would be overflowing and the shade of Doc I have no doubt has appeared and tipped his cap to The Giant for this most excellent of puns. This comic is one of the only ones to actually make me laugh repeatedly for the skillful triple pun (smoked by the stick, smoked by the dwarf, Holy Smoked the most truly enjoyable payoff). Spider would be pleased.

Allowing ourselves to be sidetracked over the triviality of would/should/why/why not ZZ'dtri says which phrase lessens the comic unnecessarily. Not because there should not be debates, please do not think I mean that.

But because there are better debates to be had over how awesome this strip of pun is.


Oh, and the answer to this question:

What is difficult terrain for an ooze?

Sponges

[Boogastreehouse]

[FONT="Georgia"]...and am utterly astonished that I appear to be the only one who feels that way.]

Attention all forum posters:

Any time you feel the urge to express that you are surprised that you are the only one who noticed something or appreciated something... don't...

...because you aren't.

You might be the first person to say something, but even then you probably aren't.

(This is meant to be good-natured, not mean-spirited, by-the-way)

[oppyu]

[FONT="Georgia"]
But because there are better debates to be had over how awesome this strip of pun is.

A strip of pun? Sounds a little... thin.

ba-dum-tish.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

To be honest, I'm surprised ANY of the Linear Guild was affected by that, least of all Tarquin, who appears to be a long-time veteran, and I'd have pegged him at close to epic by now.

If their HD is greater than your current spellcaster level, no effect. Sabine might be punted back to the realm she came from, but other than that... nothing more than a minor inconvenience for LG unless it is quickly followed up on.

[i6uuaq]

Combining thoughts from a few earlier posts...

Someone suggested that Durkon could observe LG from inside the wall before emerging. The LG was moving fairly close together to be all within the range of smokestick. Durkon could easily have observed Malack before the stick went off. At any rate, he would have seen Kilkil.

Assuming the statement of "Durkon can see out of the wall" is correct, Tarquin's cover is blown.


To those suggesting that Durkon is about to meet Thor, I'd suggest that the timing is incorrect by dramatic convention. You don't *normally* kill off a major character without setting the stage properly, with plenty of tension in the buildup. The Order is right now tearing the LG a new one, and this process would need a few more strips to establish itself. I wouldn't expect a major character death, except as part of a major reversal in battle fortunes, whereby the character death is symptomatic of overall defeat. But a turn in the tides of battle so quickly would not be effective from a story-telling point of view. I expect another 2 strips at minimum of OotS-win to set a proper stage for dramatic change in the tide of battle, if it happens here at all.

Plus it would suck for a plan well-executed by the OotS to fail, as per their long-established propensity for overall failure.


Also hoping to see another version of the comic using "Beer" as the word. Perhaps in the compilation.


Also, smokestick is appropriate, because they're the Order of the (smoke)Stick.

[Math_Mage]

To be honest, I'm surprised ANY of the Linear Guild was affected by that, least of all Tarquin, who appears to be a long-time veteran, and I'd have pegged him at close to epic by now.

If their HD is greater than your current spellcaster level, no effect. Sabine might be punted back to the realm she came from, but other than that... nothing more than a minor inconvenience for LG unless it is quickly followed up on.

Well, Sabine has LA, Zz'dtri has LA, Kilkil is almost certainly no powerhouse, and Durkon gets at least +1 CL for casting from the Good domain. We don't know if Tarquin was affected.

Anyway, this is certainly only the opening salvo.

[Smolder]

Assuming the statement of "Durkon can see out of the wall" is correct, Tarquin's cover is blown.

Not at all. Notice that Nale gives his order to "Thog". Even if Durkon can hear through the wall, let alone see, there was nothing to give away not-Thog's true identity.

[wildwilly]

Great comic!

[Qiam]

Would Holy Word banish Sabine like the spell description for Holy Word suggests? If so, that's a huge advantage for OOTS.