OOTS #859 - The Discussion Thread

[RecklessFable]

Holy Word just isn't that good unless you boost your caster level. I think it was a Bead of Karma that my Cleric used to boost the level enough to actually be useful in encounters.

Otherwise it is great for clearing trash, like jumping into a pit of zombies or wiping out a small village of non-goodies.

[EmperorSarda]

Holy Word just isn't that good unless you boost your caster level. I think it was a Bead of Karma that my Cleric used to boost the level enough to actually be useful in encounters.

Durkon has the good domain, +1 to caster level for all good spells cast.

[Jay R]

I realize that this was a long time ago, but The Dragon #179 had Gloves of Interception, that specifically allowed the wearer to snatch arrows in flight.

[EmperorSarda]

I realize that this was a long time ago, but The Dragon #179 had Gloves of Interception, that specifically allowed the wearer to snatch arrows in flight.

Yeah, in the Geekery thread that is included as a possibility for being able to catch arrows.

[Oscaver]

What spell did Durkon use to do that?

Also, how don't you hear the dwarf in full plate?

I doubt you could hear anything over the sound of Nale barking orders.

[rewinn]

I think his finding a new patsy to topple his governments every couple of years might get him some xp. Plus the whole special mid-week gladiatorial propaganda event probably gave him xp too.

His soldiers arresting Thog and then being thrown in the ring, probably not.

PLUS: Tarquin is smart enough to see the advantage of continuing to gain levels and to figure out a way to do it, if he so chose. It's not a case of merely dispatching zero-levels who would gain him no points, but of figuring out how to game the system to farm XPs. For example, if a room full of trolls would be a good enough challenge to net him 1 percent of the XPs needed for the next level, and would be actually likely to wound but not kill him, then he could just have to start off each day by chopping up that room full of trolls and then healing up over breakfast, before getting about the business of running his empire. That's net him a new level every 4 months or so. When the CR of the trolls gets too low, add more trolls or something else that regenerates when killed.
Now, this system has to have a flaw, otherwise Tarquin would be very very high level indeed. It may be that T just didn't think of it, or it may be that the gods don't like it and punish anyone who tries it. We don't know that T does anything like this, but some lesser variation on it may explain how T can have spent the latter part of his career running things rather than hacking at them, and yet be much higher level than the Order.

[Stella]

I wonder if Sabine was banished by the spell. She has to make a will save with a -4 penalty.

One thing that has been ignored so far (as far as I've followed the thread, at least):

I think it's not been determined if Sabine is a Demon or a Devil, there is that constant ambiguity as to whether iron or silver effects her. But in either case, a Succubus has a Will +7 and an Erinyes has a Will +10. So in either case Sabine has a better than decent chance to avoid the banishment effect of the Holy Word. At least +3, and potentially +6. So for all those who are calling for her to be banished for a day, it's possible, but not likely.

Fascinating, and definitely worth pages of argument.

Not.

It could just have been an error on the Giant's part or a brainfart on Z's.

Not.

[dtilque]

I think it's not been determined if Sabine is a Demon or a Devil,

Trust to this message board to create ambiguity where the comic has none. If she were a devil, then the joke in panel 3 here would have been different.

there is that constant ambiguity as to whether iron or silver effects her.

The ambiguity there reflects Haley's knowledge, not our knowledge. Obviously she does not have a monster manual to consult, while we do.

[Mike Havran]

One thing that has been ignored so far (as far as I've followed the thread, at least):

I think it's not been determined if Sabine is a Demon or a Devil...

It has been shown a few times that Sabine is a Succubus.

[lololololololol]

jesus christ, to guys who keep mentioning that Tarquin has too much wealth for his level - maybe, just maybe, he's richer cause he's A RULER OF A KINGDOM?


most people on this board are insufferable, like, I can't believe dolts who would even ponder the idea that Belkar isn't Evil aren't banned on the spot.

[Kish]

So in either case Sabine has a better than decent chance to avoid the banishment effect of the Holy Word. At least +3, and potentially +6.

What does, "At least +3, and potentially +6" mean here?

Anyway. Sabine's Will save is +7 for her seven racial succubus levels, plus (assuming six to eight rogue levels) +2, for a total of 1d20+9+(her Wisdom modifier...which I am not thinking is positive) against a DC of 17+Durkon's Wisdom modifier (at least--at least--+4, potentially much higher). Even if Durkon's Wisdom is a mere 18 even at this advanced level, even if Sabine's Wisdom is as high as 10 despite her idiocy, she has less than a 50% chance of making that save.

[gamephil]

What does, "At least +3, and potentially +6" mean here?

It's what her save would be if she is (respectively) a Succubus or an Erinyes (yes, I know what she is) without class levels or a Wisdom adjustment, after taking into account the -4 to save against Holy Word's Banishment effect. Which only reinforces your conclusion that she is quite possibly gone for a day.

[arcticintel]

jesus christ, to guys who keep mentioning that Tarquin has too much wealth for his level - maybe, just maybe, he's richer cause he's A RULER OF A KINGDOM?


most people on this board are insufferable, like, I can't believe dolts who would even ponder the idea that Belkar isn't Evil aren't banned on the spot.

Is anyone saying that thats a bad thing? All the "tarquin is rich" arguements I've seen bring up that he's a ruler of a kingdom and rich. I haven't really seen any arguements saying "well, he has 6 flying carpets worth X, and these items worth X, so he must be this level".

[Stella]

Trust to this message board to create ambiguity where the comic has none.

The ambiguity there reflects Haley's knowledge, not our knowledge. Obviously she does not have a monster manual to consult, while we do.

Meh, not just Haley. I won't even try to dig up the comic, but Nale, in his "Wile E. Coyote" plan specified that the scissors Sabine was to use to cut the rope on the obligatory 10 ton weight had to be neither silver nor iron. So even her lover and party leader has no clue as to which she is.

So yeah, the comic represents this ambiguity plenty.

It's what her save would be if she is (respectively) a Succubus or an Erinyes (yes, I know what she is) without class levels or a Wisdom adjustment, after taking into account the -4 to save against Holy Word's Banishment effect. Which only reinforces your conclusion that she is quite possibly gone for a day.

Reinforces? Those are her save bonuses after counting in the Holy Word penalty. She has good odds to ignore the banishment portion of the spell.

[rgrekejin]

Meh, not just Haley. I won't even try to dig up the comic, but Nale, in his "Wile E. Coyote" plan specified that the scissors Sabine was to use to cut the rope on the obligatory 10 ton weight had to be neither silver nor iron. So even her lover and party leader has no clue as to which she is.

So yeah, the comic represents this ambiguity plenty.

It is pretty well documented that Sabine is a succubus. That certain in-comic characters are not aware of this fact does not make it any less clear to the reader.

Reinforces? Those are her save bonuses after counting in the Holy Word penalty. She has good odds to ignore the banishment portion of the spell.

Sabine's will save would be +7 from her succubus racial levels, +2 (probably) from her rogue levels, and -4 from Holy Word, for a total of +5. Against a DC of... what, 20 at the bare minimum? (10 base, +7 spell level, +3 Wisdom (since we can't for certain peg Durkon's Wisdom at higher than 17)) So, Sabine would need to roll a 15 or higher to save. So... she has a 30% chance of saving, assuming both she and Durkon have no magic items enhancing things. It wouldn't be unbelievable if she made it, but I'd be pretty hard pressed to call those "good odds"

[Kish]

It's what her save would be if she is (respectively) a Succubus or an Erinyes (yes, I know what she is) without class levels or a Wisdom adjustment, after taking into account the -4 to save against Holy Word's Banishment effect.

Ah, thanks.

So... she has a 30% chance of saving, assuming both she and Durkon have no magic items enhancing things.

And assuming that Sabine doesn't have a Wisdom penalty, and that Durkon's Wisdom is only 17 now (so he barely qualifies to cast the Holy Word he just did, and won't be able to cast any eighth-level spells when he hits level 15!) although Haley's Dexterity was 20-21 before enhancement bonuses six hundred strips ago.

[Stella]

it is pretty well documented that Sabine is a succubus. That certain in-comic characters are not aware of this fact does not make it any less clear to the reader.

Certain characters? You mean her lover and party leader? I can buy Haley not knowing which nether region Sabine came from, but Nale? Not buying that.

It is pretty well documented that her origins are a running joke, just as the plentiful references to Z as either male or female have yet to resolve that conundrum.

I'll be happy to await the following comic to see if Sabine saves vs. the banishment. When it comes to story, even a 1% chance which occurs can be just a part of the plot.

[Kish]

It is pretty well documented that her origins are a running joke,

Okay, I don't get it. Do you consider part of the definition of a running joke "never to be resolved"?

It is absolutely true that Sabine's being an ambiguous fiend was a running gag for a long time. It is equally true that one of the archfiends she works for stated that she is a succubus in 637 and that ever since then everyone in the comic has treated her as an unambiguous succubus.

just as the plentiful references to Z as either male or female have yet to resolve that conundrum.

There is ambiguity about Zz'dtri's gender?

...There are references to Zz'dtri as female?

I'll be happy to await the following comic to see if Sabine saves vs. the banishment. When it comes to story, even a 1% chance which occurs can be just a part of the plot.

Glad to see you're no longer claiming she has a good statistical chance.

[rgrekejin]

It is pretty well documented that her origins are a running joke, just as the plentiful references to Z as either male or female have yet to resolve that conundrum.

The IFCC almost certainly knows what she really is. And, for that matter, Sabine vehemently objects to being characterized as a devil. Unless you're postulating that Sabine herself doesn't know what race she is, I think this is a pretty open and shut case.

And I'll assume you're referring to V on that last part, as Z is pretty definitively male.

I'll be happy to await the following comic to see if Sabine saves vs. the banishment. When it comes to story, even a 1% chance which occurs can be just a part of the plot.

Agreed, but we certainly can ascertain ahead of time whether Sabine's save was a likely event or not.

[Jay R]

So even her lover and party leader has no clue as to which she is.

I'd have stopped that sentence at "So even her lover and party leader has no clue."

[Gift Jeraff]

It never occurred to me that Nale may not know that Sabine's fiendish race. I thought the scissors thing was just a joke to tease the readers. It's double funny if Nale does know what she is, because then it means he put that there for no reason.

[FujinAkari]

Okay, I don't get it. Do you consider part of the definition of a running joke "never to be resolved"?

It is absolutely true that Sabine's being an ambiguous fiend was a running gag for a long time. It is equally true that one of the archfiends she works for stated that she is a succubus in 637 and that ever since then everyone in the comic has treated her as an unambiguous succubus.

Not to mention Rich flat out calls her a Succubus in the War & XP commentary.

[TXMount]

As you mentioned, this doesn't cover the IRA part of the prediction.

It also doesn't cover the "not long for this world" part, the "savor next birthday cake" part, or even the "breathe his last" part, since a magic item that keeps him from having to breathe -doesn't- make him stop breathing anymore than a ring of sustenance means a character can never eat again.

So... no.

Belkar. Is. Going. To. Die.

Holy word DOES have a chance to kill non-good characters outright. If Durkon's using a magic item to boost his levels, or if Belkar is sufficiently underlevelled, this COULD accidentally kill him. I'd say it's improbable, but it might fall under Rule of Drama; V is already tormented by the knowledge that Familicide has wiped out faaaar more lives than he expected, and accidentally killing a teammate would shatter Durkon very effectively.

[gamephil]

Reinforces? Those are her save bonuses after counting in the Holy Word penalty. She has good odds to ignore the banishment portion of the spell.

Yes, reinforces, as while your analysis took the -4 into account (as I mentioned), Kish's did not but is otherwise correct, so Sabine's chances of saving were even less than the 50/50 chance Kish posited.

Of course, now the odds are 0%, but I thought I'd clear that up before moving on to the current thread, where in all likelihood I'll continue to lurk.

[Stella]

And on further review, I guess the readers do know which type she is without any more question.

If I missed it, it's because there's been so many strips/jokes about the ambiguity that that's what stuck in my mind, and not the reveal which was pretty much a one time deal with a minor reference or two afterwords.

But it seems that Nale and Haley, which implies all of the Order and the Guild, still do not know which she is.

[Mike Havran]

Elan definitely knows it's cold iron that bypasses Sabine's DR.

Honestly, I believe no character has any doubt about Sabine's species anymore.

[Stella]

Elan is often portrayed as an idiot. No conclusion of his can be taken as Word of God, on any subject. And that's regardless of any 'reveal' in the plot.

So, surely you aren't going to rely on Elan for your support? And yes, I did call you Shirley.

[Mike Havran]

Elan is often portrayed as an idiot. No conclusion of his can be taken as Word of God, on any subject. And that's regardless of any 'reveal' in the plot.

So, surely you aren't going to rely on Elan for your support? And yes, I did call you Shirley.

I do not need to rely on Elan's suport; there have been plenty of other links to newer strips presented to you before that show Sabine's origin is no longer questionable. Your "latest" strip showing some ambiguity was like, 500 strips ago. Comics sometimes evolve, and not all running jokes are permanent.

I wonder what would the characters of Order or LG need to say in order to convince you they have no doubt about Sabine. Maybe if everyone of them said "Sabine is a succubus!"? But hey, they have been all wrong before...

[St Fan]

I do not need to rely on Elan's suport; there have been plenty of other links to newer strips presented to you before that show Sabine's origin is no longer questionable. Your "latest" strip showing some ambiguity was like, 500 strips ago. Comics sometimes evolve, and not all running jokes are permanent.

Plus, Elan's rapier is, I think, stated to be silver. If he can still feel Sabine's damage resistance, stupid or not he's savvy enough to conclude that means Sabine is a demon, even if he had doubts before, and that he would need cold iron.