Dresden Files: Winter is coming (Cold Days Spoilers)

[Mr._Blinky]

I kind of got the impression that the Faerie Kings tended to be Wildfae, rather than associated with their courts of origin. At the same time, they tend to reverse the stereotypical aspects of their respective courts.

The Erlking is the Summer King, or at least one of them, but he seems like he would be more in tune with Winter. However, The predatory nature of he Winter Fae stems from scarcity. It is the wolf in the snow, perpetually one day away from starvation. The Erlking is not a starving wolf, he is a well-fed lord, hunting for sport and the thrill of the chase.

I think the general idea is that where the Queens embody the core aspects of their Court, with Mab as the cold and terror of winter and Titania as the warmth and passion of Summer, the Kings are meant to represent the flip-sides. The Erlking is the Summer King because he represents the excess and hedonistic violence of the season, while Kringle is the Winter King in that he represents the comradery and faith that comes from people banding together against all odds.

[tonberrian]

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On Molly:

Kringle drops an interesting tidbit about mantles: that they can be put on on Halloween, or be taken off. If I were a betting man, I'd bet that both Molly and Harry will lose their winter mantles at some point.

On the Oblivion War:

What happens to a spirit, once it's forgotten? Is it possible that the Outsiders are the remnants from the Oblivion War's successes?

[123456789blaaa]

I think the general idea is that where the Queens embody the core aspects of their Court, with Mab as the cold and terror of winter and Titania as the warmth and passion of Summer, the Kings are meant to represent the flip-sides. The Erlking is the Summer King because he represents the excess and hedonistic violence of the season, while Kringle is the Winter King in that he represents the comradery and faith that comes from people banding together against all odds.

Yup:

Where are the Farie kings? Do they exist?
Yes they do. The Erlking as sort of the Hunter king, and Santa Clause, the Winter king who is not the commercial Santa Clause. The kings are sort of the opposite of the queens in their given season. They are independent of their Queen’s courts. The Erlking is a summer king and he is not a particularly friendly guy, whereas Santa Clause, one of the winter kings, is kinder, the spirit of generosity in a time of bleakness. Yah I’ve gota have Harry ask Mab about him so she can roll her eyes.

Unfortunately we now have this WoJ:

Dudesan: You've described Santa Claus as being the Winter King. What does that title mean? Do Winter and Summer each have a trinity of Father/King/Prince, like they do with Mother/Queen/Lady? Is the King necessarily the consort of the Queen? If so, will we be seeing Oberon at some point?
Jim: 5) The Faerie realms just aren't that structured. It's more accurate to say that he is /a/ Winter King. Or even more accurately, that he is a free Wyld Fae who is of a power level that is on par with Mab's and happens to neighbor her sphere of influence, and finds it simpler to show up to family dinners during the holidays and make polite than to start staking out boundaries and establishing treaties.
Oberon... well, the guy kind of wound up between Mab and Titania in one of those romantic triangle things, back around Shakespeare's day. He didn't make it.

Which sort of muddles things. This seems to mean that the Kings representing the opposite of the queen in their given season is basically coincidence.

I actually don't like this. I thought the Kings representing the opposite of the queens in their given season fitted nicely and provided a pleasing symmetry. I would have preferred if "Court King" was a special title specifically given to two Fae who representing the opposite of the queens in their given season and have the WildFae who share the same sphere of influence and joined the courts not be "Kings" (like [CD SPOILER]:

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cat sith and the redcap

).

[SmartAlec]

Which sort of muddles things. This seems to mean that the Kings representing the opposite of the queen in their given season is basically coincidence.

Maybe, but thinking about it, maybe not; maybe the reason that lordly Wyldfae like Santa and the Erlking are so prominent is that they tap into the aspects of winter and summer that the Queens are furthest from, and do not embody.

[Emmerask]

Okay here is something I absolutely did not understand, maybe someone can clarify

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During the last Battle on the island Maeve practically shouted that she was possessed (or at least influenced) by nemesis, that she would destroy pretty much reality and the faerie land etc.
At first I thought that maybe Lily just couldn´t here any of that because of the ritual she tried to hold in place but she was perfectly capable of hearing and seeing other stuff
So uhm why did she continue with the ritual and not confront Maeve ???

[Somebloke]

Okay here is something I absolutely did not understand, maybe someone can clarify

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During the last Battle on the island Maeve practically shouted that she was possessed (or at least influenced) by nemesis, that she would destroy pretty much reality and the faerie land etc.
At first I thought that maybe Lily just couldn´t here any of that because of the ritual she tried to hold in place but she was perfectly capable of hearing and seeing other stuff
So uhm why did she continue with the ritual and not confront Maeve ???

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From what I read, Lilly's emotional state was such that she was not really thinking clearly- yes, evidence was put forward that Maeve was lying, but Lilly was so utterly worked up and confused that she decided (unwisely) to continue to trust her, most likely because continuing her course and not turning on her remaining 'friend' was the most emotionally 'safe' thing she could do.

At least that's how I read it. She was really, really worked up, and horribly confused as to who to trust, and people can make some incredibly stupid decisions in the grip of intense emotions.

Another question- during

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the assault on the Outsider's ships...did anyone else find it odd that a group of Fairies and fairy-enhanced mortals could do damage, with melee attacks to...steel hulled vessels? Note that they were explicitely described as such.

[Lamech]

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the assault on the Outsider's ships...did anyone else find it odd that a group of Fairies and fairy-enhanced mortals could do damage, with melee attacks to...steel hulled vessels? Note that they were explicitely described as such.

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Presumably the forces of outside shelled out for the more expensive titanium-aluminum alloy hulled vessels to place their ritual platforms. Wouldn't you have egg on your face if the vessel was too heavy to make it to the island because it scrapped against the bottom too early?

Remember, if you are attempting a world ending ritual of darkness, only trust Syntha-Alloy with 0% iron content its lighter and stronger than regular steel for only 17 times the cost.

Now what bugged me

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So they got this huge prison of things that can't be killed so had to be sealed away. EXCEPT ON HALLOWEEN And they were going to blow it on Halloween. What was up with that?

[Lord Raziere]

Now what bugged me

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So they got this huge prison of things that can't be killed so had to be sealed away. EXCEPT ON HALLOWEEN And they were going to blow it on Halloween. What was up with that?

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I think the logic is that the explosion would kill them all in the process, therefore destroying them all in one fell swoop on Halloween Night, all the monsters in there, all dead.

problem is, this results in a huge part of the lands around it getting destroyed to, which is why Harry had to come in..

[Lamech]

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I think the logic is that the explosion would kill them all in the process, therefore destroying them all in one fell swoop on Halloween Night, all the monsters in there, all dead.

problem is, this results in a huge part of the lands around it getting destroyed to, which is why Harry had to come in..

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Yup, an army of evil gods are dead. Woot! That's great. A potential weapon for destroying the world is neutralized. Good things all around.

But why would Evil-Maeve do that? She kills an army of evil gods, ganks herself passing the Ladyship onto someone who isn't infected. Sure she kills a lot of people, but that accomplishes... what? Why not do this on any other day in the year.

[SmartAlec]

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Yup, an army of evil gods are dead. Woot! That's great. A potential weapon for destroying the world is neutralized. Good things all around.

But why would Evil-Maeve do that? She kills an army of evil gods, ganks herself passing the Ladyship onto someone who isn't infected. Sure she kills a lot of people, but that accomplishes... what? Why not do this on any other day in the year.

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Perhaps Maeve wasn't intending to destroy them, but that's the line she spun to Lily. Thus, she could only get Lily's help on Hallowe'en for the 'kill them all' cover story to seem plausible.

Either that, or perhaps Hallowe'en was the only time when Demonreach was vulnerable. It seemed as if Lily had no idea what they were trying to accomplish, beyond 'destroy an evil presence'.

[Lord Raziere]

Because...

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1. she is working for the Outsiders, and the prison is potential weapon AGAINST them. I'm betting no one, even people like Nicodemus want the Outsiders getting into reality. destroying the prison removes a potential threat.

2. causing enough destruction to take out a chunk of America and probably Canada to will probably cause enough chaos.

3. destruction on that scale might be enough to damage reality itself and help the Outsiders.

4. the evil gods are probably not cooperative or thankful in the least. those things have a tendency to kill anyone who releases them as thanks.

5. she needed to manipulate Lily to do this, which meant having some sort of grounds for being on the good side, in the sense that "hey lets destroy this prison full of evil things"

6. the plague that the outsiders infect people with doesn't exactly make them rational or reasonable.

[Maugan Ra]

I pegged a few reasons for the Outsiders to want to conduct their ritual.

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Firstly, the things in the prison are so immensely powerful that they form a leyline, even imprisoned and passive, just through the residual energies of their existence. Remove them, one way or another, and the leyline is disrupted, causing magical chaos all across the natural world. Remember, the Faerie are creatures of magic and nature - screwing with the leylines could very well unbalance their own power and disposition.

Secondly, they're a potential power source and weapon, already bound and ready for use by agents of the Outsiders to turn to their own designs. It might be as a gigantic bomb, or it might be as a power plant. And since there's no guarantee this is possible, attempting it on Halloween leaves other options for removing the threat open, just in case.

Thirdly, Merlin bound these creatures, but didn't destroy them. That either means that killing them would have serious knock-on effects on the rest of reality (a win for the outsiders) or that he kept them bound as a potential weapon of last resort (in which case, taking or subverting them is also a win for the outsiders)

And finally, honestly, the outsiders won here. The Summer and Winter Lady are both dead, and their replacements are young and inexperienced. Given how things folded out, Mab herself was placed in a vulnerable position for a short while, something that happens very rarely, and could have ended up dead if things had gone another way. In the end, it worked out as the least of all possible gains for the outsiders... but it was still a net gain for them.

And regarding the war against the Outsiders, I'd actually guess that it was a metaphor more than anything else - the closest analogue Harry's mind had to what it was seeing. Winter, harsh and predatory, is an elemental force set in opposition to the endless teeming hordes that make up the Things Beyond, defining the boundaries of reality with it's territory. Summer, being vibrant and nurturing, has most of its power tied up in sustaining the natural world and causing life to grow. Both necessary for reality as we know it, but by their natures set in opposition. If Winter stops fighting and turns on summer, the Outsiders overrun everything. If Summer turns on Winter, the natural world loses it's lifeforce and dies.

Also explains why the Outsiders are hostile - if reality exists because Winter claws out a region of Outside for it and defend it, then the existence of reality is inherently a hostile act from the perspective of the Outsiders, and thus they want to unmake everything.

Except, of course, vague stories of elemental forces set in opposition to each other (and the Outside) are somewhat uninspiring and hard for a human mind to understand and get invested in. When Mother Summer explained it, therefore, she basically told Harry a story. Much like Demonreach had to use Bob by way of a translator in order to convey the complicated truth of what was going on in the prison. And given how strongly the Fae are influenced by stories and metaphors and the general beliefs of the mortals, explaining things in a tangential and metaphorical way makes perfect sense for their most powerful representatives.

[GenericMook]

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Plus, given the fact that most of the creatures bound within Demonreach are emitting malevolent energies, letting them loose on the world would mean that the Outsiders can just kick back and relax while these things set up a nice state of chaos.

Or, assuming that these things pose a threat to the Faerie courts, it might even be enough to distract Mab's forces at the Outer Gates. I really wouldn't be surprised if the things within Demonreach are threats to Faerie, since half a dozen naagaloshii (sp?) are the least of their worries.

Keep in mind that it's also something of a Pyrrhic victory for the Outsiders. Sure, they eliminated two Faerie Queens, and replaced them with inexperienced individuals, but they also lost Maeve and Lily's aid. Maeve was corrupted, but Lily was willingly helping her (although she didn't know better). While I wouldn't be surprised if there were people misled by the Outsiders, very few - if any - of them are going to be on the power level of Lily. So, that's two major pawns lost.

Still, I'm curious as to what Harry's next powerup might be. Granted, he's already something of a supernatural heavyweight (not really on Erl or Kringle's level yet, but way more dangerous than most things out there).

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I don't really see him taking up one of the Swords, and going Denarian would just provoke Uriel into saying "lolbalancingscales" and take away soulfire. That really only leaves things like the Darkhallow, and maybe acquiring the Blackstaff.

Or maybe that eye that Rashid has. That would be a cool thing to get.

[The Glyphstone]

I think he's going to find a way to dual-wield soulfire and hellfire. How, I dunno.

Also, there was a quick mention of something called Banefire as part of the Demonreach failsafe. No explanation of what it is, but apparently it can kill immortals (and outside of Halloween, to boot), since otherwise having it as the site nuke wouldn't do anything.

I'll bet he adds that to his arsenal at some point.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I think he's going to find a way to dual-wield soulfire and hellfire. How, I dunno.

Also, there was a quick mention of something called Banefire as part of the Demonreach failsafe. No explanation of what it is, but apparently it can kill immortals (and outside of Halloween, to boot), since otherwise having it as the site nuke wouldn't do anything.

I'll bet he adds that to his arsenal at some point.

What if banefire is soulfire+hellfire, hellfire for the destructive energy, soulfire to supercharge it? I mean, if there's anything that would convince Heaven and Hell to cooperate and combine their forces because otherwise they're ****ed, it's setting up a supernatural Alcatraz and putting all of the Outsider heavy-hitters in one place.

[Drolyt]

Now what bugged me

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So they got this huge prison of things that can't be killed so had to be sealed away. EXCEPT ON HALLOWEEN And they were going to blow it on Halloween. What was up with that?

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I don't think the things in the prison could only be killed on Halloween. If that were the case Merlin's continent busting safety mechanism makes no sense. Or maybe I'm confused.

[123456789blaaa]

I think he's going to find a way to dual-wield soulfire and hellfire. How, I dunno.

Also, there was a quick mention of something called Banefire as part of the Demonreach failsafe. No explanation of what it is, but apparently it can kill immortals (and outside of Halloween, to boot), since otherwise having it as the site nuke wouldn't do anything.

I'll bet he adds that to his arsenal at some point.

What if banefire is soulfire+hellfire, hellfire for the destructive energy, soulfire to supercharge it? I mean, if there's anything that would convince Heaven and Hell to cooperate and combine their forces because otherwise they're ****ed, it's setting up a supernatural Alcatraz and putting all of the Outsider heavy-hitters in one place.

#259 “Does the same apply to hellfire/soulfire. What would happen if Harry were to take up Lasciel’s coin and then try to use soulfire and hellfire together? Would that result in Harry dying horribly?”
Those are different. They’re really two sides of the same coin–but they can’t really exist together like that. They aren’t explosively reactive, but they aren’t additive, either. Which one came into the person to be used would depend on the person who was using it, and what they were using it for.
Angelic types have access to both.Which one they use is partially what determines what /kind/ of angels they are. (Emphasis added)

Sorry .

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I don't think the things in the prison could only be killed on Halloween. If that were the case Merlin's continent busting safety mechanism makes no sense. Or maybe I'm confused.

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If the things in the Well are released, the end of the world happens. Since the things in the Well are most probably immortals (why imprison them instead of killing them otherwise?) the fire is probably there to give people enough time to alert the major players of the world (Mab, Vlad Drakul etc) and get them to all unite and mobilize to do something before the Things reform.

[Mr._Blinky]

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I read it that the Banefire failsafe couldn't perma-kill most of the things in the Well, and in fact I'm pretty sure Harry says as much when talking to someone (Titania, I believe). I think that the idea of the failsafe is that rather than the things all busting out at once the second Demonreach goes, they're blown to hell for a limited amount of time; not forever, but possibly a few years or decades before they're a threat again, by which time another solution could be reached or the prison rebuilt. If the Banefire could straight-up destroy everything in the prison, Merlin probably would have used it to do just that, and especially back when the prison was first built and the surrounding area wasn't nearly so densely populated. Instead, I think it's merely intended as a delaying action, and that Merlin saw the destruction of the entire surrounding region as an acceptable price to pay to keep them down for even a limited amount of time.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

*snip WoJ*

Sorry .

Oh well. So I guess there is yet another X-fire out there with unknown properties. My guess is some sort of Faerie-based energy that's antithetical to Outsiders by virtue of the worldly/natural connection the same way soulfire and hellfire are antithetical, then, though it's possible it could just be really, really concentrated destructive magic or something simple like that.

[Mr._Blinky]

Oh well. So I guess there is yet another X-fire out there with unknown properties. My guess is some sort of Faerie-based energy that's antithetical to Outsiders by virtue of the worldly/natural connection the same way soulfire and hellfire are antithetical, then, though it's possible it could just be really, really concentrated destructive magic or something simple like that.

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I don't think the things in the prison are Outsiders at all; after all, we know that the naagloshii at least are "just" semi-divines from this reality.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

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I don't think the things in the prison are Outsiders at all; after all, we know that the naagloshii at least are "just" semi-divines from this reality.

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This is true, but we know the naagloshii are the least powerful things in Demonreach, and it makes a lot of sense that the Outsiders would target Demonreach because it can be or has been used against Outsiders. It wouldn't surprise me if there are quite a few Outsiders in there somewhere and/or if the countermeasures were set up under the assumption that there might be Outsiders held there someday.

[Mr._Blinky]

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This is true, but we know the naagloshii are the least powerful things in Demonreach, and it makes a lot of sense that the Outsiders would target Demonreach because it can be or has been used against Outsiders. It wouldn't surprise me if there are quite a few Outsiders in there somewhere and/or if the countermeasures were set up under the assumption that there might be Outsiders held there someday.

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There might be a select few Outsiders in there, but I doubt they make up a particularly significant portion of the inmates. Remember, Demonreach gives us a rundown on the sorts of things imprisoned there, including the naagloshii, dark gods, demons, etc, but it never mentions Outsiders. To me, the things trapped in there are probably more along the lines of Jormungandr or Lilith than Cthulhu; dangerous supernatural creatures, but creatures from our realm of reality.

[datalaughing]

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The explosion that at the island wasn't going to take place on Halloween night. It was going to happen on November 1st. The thing that caused the explosion, the initiating event, was going to be on Halloween. Remember, the attack was happening through space and time.

I don't think the banefire would kill the things in storage there permanently. Maybe not even on Halloween. Remember what Bob says while explaining to Harry about how immortals are vulnerable on Halloween, Harry asks if they'll all be on Earth, and Bob says, “Any who are *. *. *. The only word I can come close with is ‘awake.’ Immortals aren’t always moving through the time stream at the same rate as the universe. From where you stand, it looks like they’re dormant. They aren’t. You just can’t perceive the true state of their existence properly.”

I don't think the immortals in the prison would qualify as active at the moment. They may not even technically be in our world trapped in those crystals. So they may not be vulnerable to death on Halloween.

[The Glyphstone]

Sorry .

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The WoJ only says you can't fuse soulfire and hellfire together. I maintain my WMG-fueled mental image of Harry with Soulfire in one hand and Hellfire in the other, alternating bolts of each.

[Lamech]

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The WoJ only says you can't fuse soulfire and hellfire together. I maintain my WMG-fueled mental image of Harry with Soulfire in one hand and Hellfire in the other, alternating bolts of each.

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I've always thought it would make sense to use both of them to transform your target. Destroy them and rebuild them into something new. Alas it is not to be.

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There might be a select few Outsiders in there, but I doubt they make up a particularly significant portion of the inmates. Remember, Demonreach gives us a rundown on the sorts of things imprisoned there, including the naagloshii, dark gods, demons, etc, but it never mentions Outsiders. To me, the things trapped in there are probably more along the lines of Jormungandr or Lilith than Cthulhu; dangerous supernatural creatures, but creatures from our realm of reality.

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Maybe if they aren't outsiders they are strong enough that they would kick outsiders the hell away from our reality. That would explain why they have releases. If outsiders look like they are going to win, the Warden can push the release button and watch Lilith and co. help themselves to a big bowl of Outsider-Os with a glass of blood of the innocent.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

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Maybe if they aren't outsiders they are strong enough that they would kick outsiders the hell away from our reality. That would explain why they have releases. If outsiders look like they are going to win, the Warden can push the release button and watch Lilith and co. help themselves to a big bowl of Outsider-Os with a glass of blood of the innocent.

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"He-Who-Walks-Behind: Now a part of this complete breakfast." Yeah, keeping a bunch of Outsider-wrecking baddies around as a panic button does seem like the kind of crazy thing that Harry would have to deal with.

Wild mass guessing ahoy! We know the Apocalyptic Trilogy consists of Hell's Bells, Stars and Stones, and Empty Night, so I could see Stars and Stones being about releasing things from under Demonreach (Stones) at a certain time of year (Stars). Like, say, Halloween. Again. Happy birthday, Dresden. After Harry gives in to the Denarians and picks up Hellfire in Hell's Bells for the dual-wielding good-and-evil blasting the Glyphstone so desperately wants to see, Empty Night is when everything goes to **** (not hell in a handbasket, that's two books before) and the Outsiders and non-Outsiders duke it out and whoever wins has to be destroyed for good.

Implausible? Sure. Freakin' awesome? Also sure.

[Adumbration]

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"He-Who-Walks-Behind: Now a part of this complete breakfast." Yeah, keeping a bunch of Outsider-wrecking baddies around as a panic button does seem like the kind of crazy thing that Harry would have to deal with.

Wild mass guessing ahoy! We know the Apocalyptic Trilogy consists of Hell's Bells, Stars and Stones, and Empty Night, so I could see Stars and Stones being about releasing things from under Demonreach (Stones) at a certain time of year (Stars). Like, say, Halloween. Again. Happy birthday, Dresden. After Harry gives in to the Denarians and picks up Hellfire in Hell's Bells for the dual-wielding good-and-evil blasting the Glyphstone so desperately wants to see, Empty Night is when everything goes to **** (not hell in a handbasket, that's two books before) and the Outsiders and non-Outsiders duke it out and whoever wins has to be destroyed for good.

Implausible? Sure. Freakin' awesome? Also sure.

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I don't know, Stars and Stones, Hell's Bells and Empty Night are all common swearwords among the supernatural world of Dresdenverse, which implies that they are also something from the past, not just something that will happen.

[hamlet]

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I don't know, Stars and Stones, Hell's Bells and Empty Night are all common swearwords among the supernatural world of Dresdenverse, which implies that they are also something from the past, not just something that will happen.

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No, they could just as easily be part of a prophecy rather than something past.

[SmartAlec]

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Empty Night is when everything goes to **** (not hell in a handbasket, that's two books before) and the Outsiders and non-Outsiders duke it out and whoever wins has to be destroyed for good.

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That's very likely. Notable is that beyond the Winter Wall keeping back the Outsiders, the land is lit but the sky is completely black. Good chance that's the 'empty night' that inspired the cursewords.

[Dumbledore lives]

So I read the book and it's pretty awesome, not much more to say that hasn't already been said.