Dresden Files: Winter is coming (Cold Days Spoilers)

[jindra34]

I don't see how fighting the Outsides in direct combat is much different from fighting the Winter Fae in direct combat. Remember the battle in Summer Knight?

Its the attitudes. Note Harry's line about how FEW wounded were actually able to make it back to the safety over how many were injured. Winter's attitude makes that easy to accept, Summer's much less so.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Y'know my take personally is that Winter and Summer are still balanced.

Check the Queen sets, still all about that. IIRC from Summer Knight Mab and Titania are portrayed such that going full out could wipe out everything on the fields they both have, only because they counter each other it opens for the lesser forces to play a role at all. What's at the Outer Gates isn't as deep as that sort of fundamental order, its "mere" military strength. A lot of it indeed, but not of the same high order advantage

In other words the balance is more about quality then quantity. Defending reality, that needs more quantity.

I kinda speculate whatever set this posture up thought all of this out anyways. Maybe the last Ice Age was a giant recruiting drive for Winter agreed to under very specific terms for the express purpose of establishing the current Outer Gates posture.

[jindra34]

Also another thought: Any bets on the Unseelie Accords having language in them that allows Mab to, in case of extreme need, force signatories to provide aid to defending the Outer Gates?

[The Glyphstone]

They'd have to be extremely convoluted, muddied, and obscure, hinting at and dancing around their purpose without ever even coming close to actually outright stating what the clauses let her do. Granted, that's extremely Fey, and extremely Mab, but still necessary, since only a tiny fraction of people outside the Faerie Courts even know the Outer Gates exist as a (meta?)physical place. Knowledge like that is not what I'd want to put into the hands of, say, the Denarians or the Fomor, unless the alternative was the literal end of the world.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Well that would literally be the case wouldn't it?

Actually I bet Mab's position is exactly why they are the Unseelie Accords. Its what gave her the leverage (in a roundabout way) to set that all up. Something like this:

Mab: Sign bitches or all this chaos means I might have to bring in reinforcements to compensate.

Everyone Else: You wouldn't that would...

Mab: Try me.

Everyone Else: Fuuuuuuuuuuu....!

[Lamech]

She wouldn't need to say "Try me". In extreme cases of stupidity all she would need to say is "You think I'm lying?"

[Iskandar]

She wouldn't need to say "Try me". In extreme cases of stupidity all she would need to say is "You think I'm lying?"

Yeah, Fae don't lie, and, IIRC, implying one is lying is a deadly, deadly insult, usually ending up with the one making said insult turning into a smoking (or frosted, depending on which court) crater.

[jindra34]

Yeah, Fae don't lie, and, IIRC, implying one is lying is a deadly, deadly insult, usually ending up with the one making said insult turning into a smoking (or frosted, depending on which court) crater.

Yeah... Implying one of the Sidhe is lying is likely to be lethal. Implying one of the queens is lying (much less stating it out right) is likely to put you through worse.

[Mauve Shirt]

Do we have the first line of Skin Game yet?

[Lamech]

Spoiler

Show

Kittens. There were kittens everywhere.

In other news, the new series is floating along.

[Mauve Shirt]

What for reals? If so, greatest book ever. Though I suspect it's going to be a bit like White Night. Real-world consequences, probably major, but they're downplayed in exchange for a fun episode. I mean, Harry and Nick stealing something from Satan? Sounds goofy to me! Not to mention kittens!

Hm. New series. Maybe I'll read it a book at a time, unlike Codex Alera which came out when I was in the midst of my very first Dresden read so I kind of ignored it.

[Xefas]

Kittens. There were kittens everywhere.

Now we have to take this line, and each add a line after it, and continue onward until the forum has written its own Dresden short story.

Such as:

---

Kittens. There were kittens everywhere.

Before I ever agreed to do this job, I knew that I'd regret discovering what the Nickel-heads were doing, hiding out in Chicago's oldest and most well-respected blender factory.

[Mauve Shirt]

Kittens. There were kittens everywhere.

Before I ever agreed to do this job, I knew that I'd regret discovering what the Nickel-heads were doing, hiding out in Chicago's oldest and most well-respected blender factory.

But when Mab, Queen of Air and Darkness, is your boss, you'd damn well better agree to do your job. And that's how I found myself surrounded by rusty blenders, conversing politely with the most dangerously evil man I've ever known.

[Eldan]

Before I ever agreed to do this job, I knew that I'd regret discovering what the Nickel-heads were doing, hiding out in Chicago's oldest and most well-respected blender factory.

But when Mab, Queen of Air and Darkness, is your boss, you'd damn well better agree to do your job. And that's how I found myself surrounded by rusty blenders, conversing politely with the most dangerously evil man I've ever known.

Now, I know what you're thinking, that I've said that about a lot of men - Johnny Marcone, Nicodemus, Ortega, whoever invented New Coke - but this was diffrent.

[123456789blaaa]

Man, the RPG basically says "These guys are bad news" without adding anything new. They are significantly higher-statted than fae though.

My thinking is that the Outsiders are scary not because of pure power (heck, Michael and the wizards were able to put some down. Harry was able to sort-of kill two of their Knights) but because they're "different". I can't really talk about specifics as we don't have much info on them but note their immunity to magic, their maybe-hivemind, and all the supernaturals wariness of them.

I generally trust the RPG but not when it comes to either plot relevant topics or things the in-universe authors don't really know about. Outsiders are both. Plus the stats in the RPG are pretty wacky.

Well....if we're talking about evidence for why Winter is better, how about the fact that they made Winter to fight off the outsiders, and made Summer to protect earth from Winter?

The fact that in the books Winter is more suited to fight off the Outsiders is not what I'm debating. The author seems to have taken that postion and so it is true in the DV. What I'm saying is that I don't buy his justifications.

Its the attitudes. Note Harry's line about how FEW wounded were actually able to make it back to the safety over how many were injured. Winter's attitude makes that easy to accept, Summer's much less so.

Yeah but Winter could just do the same thing the Outsiders are doing and win the battles with Summer while Summer is trying to tend to their wounded. Why haven't they done this? Heck, why haven't Summers other enemies done this in wars with them? If the Outsiders can take advantage of it than I don't see why other enemies can.

Really, I would prefer if neither Courts had the role of defending the Gates. I'm alright with Winter being the strategic mind behind the defense and Summers role in protecting the earth but I just don't like them being a meat wall.

Y'know my take personally is that Winter and Summer are still balanced.

Check the Queen sets, still all about that. IIRC from Summer Knight Mab and Titania are portrayed such that going full out could wipe out everything on the fields they both have, only because they counter each other it opens for the lesser forces to play a role at all. What's at the Outer Gates isn't as deep as that sort of fundamental order, its "mere" military strength. A lot of it indeed, but not of the same high order advantage

In other words the balance is more about quality then quantity. Defending reality, that needs more quantity.

I kinda speculate whatever set this posture up thought all of this out anyways. Maybe the last Ice Age was a giant recruiting drive for Winter agreed to under very specific terms for the express purpose of establishing the current Outer Gates posture.

I don't even think this is really that up for debate (except for the last paragraph). It seems pretty clear to me that this is the position the books are taking and what's true in the DV.

[Tavar]

My thinking is that the Outsiders are scary not because of pure power (heck, Michael and the wizards were able to put some down. Harry was able to sort-of kill two of their Knights) but because they're "different". I can't really talk about specifics as we don't have much info on them but note their immunity to magic, their maybe-hivemind, and all the supernaturals wariness of them.

Are you really taking the position that 2 Senior Council members and a Knight of the Cross(which, while acting in their purview basically get to tell supernatural stuff "nope!") aren't a sign of power? Especially given that the Council members in question basically said that they likely wouldn't have been able to get out if the Knight wasn't there?

Plus, you know, Harry is specifically mentioned as getting around the Outsider's immunity to a degree.

Yeah but Winter could just do the same thing the Outsiders are doing and win the battles with Summer while Summer is trying to tend to their wounded. Why haven't they done this? Heck, why haven't Summers other enemies done this in wars with them? If the Outsiders can take advantage of it than I don't see why other enemies can.

Winter seems to have to kill off some of their wounded, to prevent outsider infiltration. That would likely be something Summer would balk at.

Also, and more importantly, if Summer guarded the Gates, then it would likely change. I don't think even Summer could remain as they are(ie, the emotive branch of Fae) without changing to some degree due to fighting a war like that(yes, they fight between themselves, but that seems ritualized). What would happen when Summer turned darker and more destructive due to the influence of having to fight a war like the war for the Outer Gates?

And, also, why would Winter protect humanity if something did change?

Really, I would prefer if neither Courts had the role of defending the Gates. I'm alright with Winter being the strategic mind behind the defense and Summers role in protecting the earth but I just don't like them being a meat wall.

So....you don't want a battle?

[123456789blaaa]

Are you really taking the position that 2 Senior Council members and a Knight of the Cross(which, while acting in their purview basically get to tell supernatural stuff "nope!") aren't a sign of power? Especially given that the Council members in question basically said that they likely wouldn't have been able to get out if the Knight wasn't there?

Plus, you know, Harry is specifically mentioned as getting around the Outsider's immunity to a degree.

Power is relative. Uriel can (by WoJ) destroy galaxies just by thinking about it. Compared to that the Outsider the SC members and the KotC fought is small potatoes.

Now we don't have much information on the Outsiders so it's possible that that Outsider was their weakest minion and that the higher-ups can destroy milllions of universes with a spare thought. I do not think this is what Jim will do though. What would be the point? we already have immensely powerful beings in the DV, why does it matter to a mortal if a being can destroy a planet or a galaxy? They're still screwed either way. The Outsiders are probably as powerfull as the beings on the Inside but I don't think that will be why they're so scary.

Harry still had to hurt them normally, it's just that the normal way works. If they were as powerful as...say...Mab they could have just snapped their fingers and popped his skull before he could blink.

Winter seems to have to kill off some of their wounded, to prevent outsider infiltration. That would likely be something Summer would balk at.

Also, and more importantly, if Summer guarded the Gates, then it would likely change. I don't think even Summer could remain as they are(ie, the emotive branch of Fae) without changing to some degree due to fighting a war like that(yes, they fight between themselves, but that seems ritualized). What would happen when Summer turned darker and more destructive due to the influence of having to fight a war like the war for the Outer Gates?

And, also, why would Winter protect humanity if something did change?

Yeah and as I said previously, I don't think either of the Courts should defend the Gates. It's just that if a Court must defend the Gates then it would be more symbolically appropriate for Summer to do so IMO. I would prefer if neither had the job.

I don't recall saying anything about Winter protecting humanity .

So....you don't want a battle?

I'm ambivalent on the issue. Perhaps it could be spun into something good and perhaps not. I just want some other group besides the Courts to have the job.

[Anderlith]

Maybe they are the Vord? Nemesis is an evolved form of a taker?
Muhahahahahaha

Lol jk but it'd be fun to think that

[Eldan]

I just don't like the idea of the fae courts having a "purpose" at all. I quite liked them as forces of nature, having a mission dimishes them in my eyes.

[Mauve Shirt]

Mab can only snap her fingers and pop your head off if you've bargained with her.

Uriel and the White God are mega-powerful and do work to defend reality, but not from the physical location of the outer gates. They work to defend reality from Outsiders through people like Michael, who as we mentioned is strong enough to turn the tide of a battle and kick Outsider butt.

Wizards help the courts do the job by doing their best to prevent monsters and warlocks from summoning Outsiders. Mortals are the most corruptable thing in the world, so who would send them to the Gates? They'd be infected by Nemesis almost immediately. The world is safer if fewer mortals know that the Outside is even a thing, so there is only one Wizard who literally goes and visits the Outer Gates, participating in that battle. But every Wizard is responsible for stopping violators of that law.

The Vampires and most of the rest of the supernatural community don't have the strength or the numbers or even the desire to deal with Outsiders. Only the Courts, really, are both capable of defending our reality in magic and numbers and strength, and are interested in doing so. They're the closest Supernatural nation to our reality after all.

Who else do we have that can get involved?

And don't say "This is the stance the Dresdenverse has taken." What stance would you take, given this universe?

[Eldan]

The other Gods? We know Odin is around, there are likely others. They should have an interest in reality and Dresden is quite fond of using terms like "hoary old god" to say "the most powerful thing I can think of".

[Maugan Ra]

Hey, I still operate on the belief that the whole 'Eternal War at the Outer Gates' is either a metaphor or flat-out lie. It seems too straightforward and understandable for something relayed to Harry by Mother Summer... who is, after all, the eldest of the Queens and about as Fae as you get.

That said, I'm perfectly happy thinking of the Fae courts as being engaged in a metaphorical war as the embodiments of what we might think of as the natural world, pitted against things that just... aren't. Eldritch abominations everywhere.

(Mab is an Eldritch abomination that just happens to look like a terrifyingly beautiful woman when she wants to.)

But that might just be personal preference on my part. I like my cosmology vague and poorly understood.

[Tavar]

Power is relative. Uriel can (by WoJ) destroy galaxies just by thinking about it. Compared to that the Outsider the SC members and the KotC fought is small potatoes.

True. But saying that only Mab, Uriel, or beings who can destroy the world are powerful? That's BS of the highest order.

Harry still had to hurt them normally, it's just that the normal way works. If they were as powerful as...say...Mab they could have just snapped their fingers and popped his skull before he could blink.

I think you would be the only one to "equate being powerful" to "being as powerful as Mab". Hell, by that logic no villian in any of the books has been powerful yet!

Yeah and as I said previously, I don't think either of the Courts should defend the Gates. It's just that if a Court must defend the Gates then it would be more symbolically appropriate for Summer to do so IMO. I would prefer if neither had the job.

Only if you ignore what the courts seem to be like. You don't want someone caring about each soldier they have, given the battlefield. You want someone prepared to throw legions into a meat grinder, and do it again and again and again. So, you want someone cold and calculating, able to kill their own wounded if necessary without hesitation. Hell, even doing so to their children.

Given how Cold Days worked out, Summer would have fallen to Nemisis pretty easily, which would seem like a bad thing.

I don't recall saying anything about Winter protecting humanity .

Currently, Summer exists to protect the World from Mab. If Summer is the one defending the gates, then presumably Winter would have to protect the world from Summer, and this actually makes some sense, as we know Summer isn't merely friendly. The issue being that Winter would seemingly make a much worse defender.

I'm ambivalent on the issue. Perhaps it could be spun into something good and perhaps not. I just want some other group besides the Courts to have the job.

Because?

The other Gods? We know Odin is around, there are likely others. They should have an interest in reality and Dresden is quite fond of using terms like "hoary old god" to say "the most powerful thing I can think of".

Perhaps they did. But, when the White God came back, it seemed that the other gods lost much of their power(see, say, Odin, who is only that powerful at the seat of his power, and not at the Outer Gates.)

I just don't like the idea of the fae courts having a "purpose" at all. I quite liked them as forces of nature, having a mission dimishes them in my eyes.

Forces of nature do have a purpose, though.

[Mauve Shirt]

Off topic: Do we know that Michael is Molly's father?

[Philistine]

…Pretty sure? I'd have to go back over Charity's story in Proven Guilty to check, but I think the only way for Molly to not be Michael's natural child is for Charity to have fooled around.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Presuming this timeline has it worked out right we have a modest year gap between Siriothrax and Molly being born.

The longer the gap the less likely. As while I can believe Charity might once have been willing to be more casual in her sexual mores before then, and I won't presume she became devout the very next day, the farther on the more difficult that idea becomes.

[Philistine]

Insufficient data in the book - it's extremely unlikely that Molly was born prior to Michael coming along, but still possible that she might have been conceived before Gregor set Charity up to be et by the dragon. The link above, though, has a further link to a timeline specifically for The Carpenter Family with a WoJ cite which makes it pretty much a lock that Michael is Molly's natural father (though the link on the page is dead).

[Lvl45DM!]

You know what i feel is missing from this series? A skyward screaming name. "KHAAAAAAAAAAN!" or "JACK SPARRRRRRA!!"

"DRESDEEEEEEEEEEN!" "COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWL!

[Dante & Vergil]

You know what i feel is missing from this series? A skyward screaming name. "KHAAAAAAAAAAN!" or "JACK SPARRRRRRA!!"

"DRESDEEEEEEEEEEN!" "COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWL!

Who's to say that Jim hasn't already planned that to happen in the upcoming books at least once? I'm expecting a great line from Harry in response, so long as it's not him saying the line.

[Xefas]

So, what kind of witty repartee do y'all think we can expect from Nicodemus when he finds out that Harry sold his soul to a monster?

My guess would be 'scathing'. Although I suspect 'jovially lugubrious' is also a strong possibility.

edit: Also, I'm really sad someone broke the short story. It was highly Dresdenesque, I feel.