Dresden Files: Winter is coming (Cold Days Spoilers)

[Mauve Shirt]

The ending of Cold Days just doesn't make sense to me if Molly isn't part fae. And about 3 times a book Harry mentions that Molly takes after her mother in physical appearance, not her father.
It's more likely that she made some sort of deal under duress during Proven Guilty, but I thought it was an interesting idea.

[hamlet]

The ending of Cold Days just doesn't make sense to me if Molly isn't part fae. And about 3 times a book Harry mentions that Molly takes after her mother in physical appearance, not her father.
It's more likely that she made some sort of deal under duress during Proven Guilty, but I thought it was an interesting idea.

Except that Jim has stated at one point explicitly (IIRC) that Mab herself was human at one point. So it's something that's got precedence.

[jindra34]

Except that Jim has stated at one point explicitly (IIRC) that Mab herself was human at one point. So it's something that's got precedence.

Um... Mab said that herself in Cold Days. No need to go to the Word of Jim for that.

[Mauve Shirt]

I thought she was a changeling.

I don't like it. What turned her into the most powerful Faerie? Belief? Did she make a deal with the Queen that Was?
Did Mother Winter actually have a child, as Mab had a child? If so, Mab was either a changeling or 100% fae.

[V'icternus]

Mab was a mortal who got landed with the mantle of the Winter Queen.

She had changeling children, and at some point (apparently) killed the Winter Lady, whose mantle then passed to Maeve.

She was turned into such a powerful fairie because of the mantle. She is the Queen, and has been for a long time.

Also, mortal doesn't mean powerless. She could have been a powerful witch, for all we know. But, regardless, as the Unseelie Queen, she just gets power.

[Mauve Shirt]

But HOW did she get the mantle?! Only the knight can be mortal, the queens have to be bound to Faerie!

[Eldan]

My running theory is that Charity is not entirely human.

[Mauve Shirt]

Did Charity maybe promise her firstborn to Faerie during her bad times? When Lea asked Michael for his eldest daughter in Grave Peril, did she somehow twist that into truth when she returned Ammorachius?

[Lamech]

But HOW did she get the mantle?! Only the knight can be mortal, the queens have to be bound to Faerie!

You stop being a mortal as soon as you get the Mantle. Anyway IIRC the mantles where made with the Stone Table. So that's one way. Maybe she stole it with a clever ploy. Maybe she got it the same way Molly did, by spending too much time around a fae and then being next to the previous Queen upon death.

[Mauve Shirt]

I don't buy it. Unless there's some ritual that turned human Mab into the original queen of Winter (in which case, where did the mothers come from?) the mantle wouldn't have passed to a full human.
You become Fae when you get the mantle, but you have to be bound to Faerie beforehand, by bargain or by blood, or the mantle's power wouldn't flow into you. Otherwise, Murphy was closer to the dead queen than Molly.
The easiest way to explain Molly being acceptable for the mantle would be if she or her parents made a bargain. Or some weird ritual occurred when she was kidnapped. And either Mab was the human daughter of Mother Winter (having chosen to be human alteady) or she went through the same ritual. Possibly involving the stone table.

Another thing, the ritual could not have occurred right then, on top of the hill on Demonreach.The rrequired beings were a little busy. If it's a ritual it happened before.

[Tavar]

We know that the recipient of a mantel needs to be associated with the court. So we know what that entails?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Given that the Summer Lady' mantle has twice passed to a scion of Winter I'm thinking that appropriate vessel is here is hazy, at least from our perspective. We damn well know Winter and Summer magic react painfully with each other.

And you know in some ways Molly is a changeling... she was kidnapped and taken to fairyland as a child.

[Mauve Shirt]

Was Lily a scion of Winter? She'd been in the care of the summer knight for an age and a half.

Hell, come to think of it, if that's enough to align you with a court, Lea taking care of Molly might be enough.

[Tavar]

Hell, come to think of it, if that's enough to align you with a court, Lea taking care of Molly might be enough.

This is the position espoused in the books, so I'm not sure why this is a big leap of logic.

[Xefas]

Hell, come to think of it, if that's enough to align you with a court, Lea taking care of Molly might be enough.

Molly: Have you been injecting me with faerie blood while I sleep? I just feel... full of blood.

Lea: Well, I haven't, not, not been doing the opposite of that. If that's what you mean.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Was Lily a scion of Winter? She'd been in the care of the summer knight for an age and a half.

Hell, come to think of it, if that's enough to align you with a court, Lea taking care of Molly might be enough.

Well all of the crew with Ronald were Winter. That was kind of the point, they were Winter to Lloyd and Maeve were having rape parties (or something like that) with them as the main attraction.

So that includes Fix.

Presumably the mantles do look at the bit of the other court and say "shoo!" really loudly

[123456789blaaa]

True. But saying that only Mab, Uriel, or beings who can destroy the world are powerful? That's BS of the highest order.

I did say "power is relative" not "power is relative to Mab, Uriel, or beings who can destroy the world". Those guys were examples to show that power is relative.

In fact, I made that comparison in the first place because you said this previously:

Are you really taking the position that 2 Senior Council members and a Knight of the Cross(which, while acting in their purview basically get to tell supernatural stuff "nope!") aren't a sign of power? Especially given that the Council members in question basically said that they likely wouldn't have been able to get out if the Knight wasn't there?
<snip>

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't you basically committing the exact same fallacy that you are saying I committed? Why would being able to take on 2 Senior Council members and a Knight of the Cross be "a sign of power" when (as I said before) power is relative?

To compare power levels there must be a baseline. This baseline could be a pure mortal or Uriel himself. Usually it is taken as a given that Harry is that baseline (since he's the protagonist of the books) however in the original post that started this debate I was replying to Mauve Shirt. I was saying that Outsiders were scary not because of pure power. Nowhere did I say that Outsiders weren't powerful. I said that they weren't scary to basically everyone in the supernatural world because of power but because they are "different". Because that was the post you replied to, your reply to mine heavily implied that you thought Outsiders were scary because of pure power. You basically said that being able to put up a very good fight two SC members and a KOTC was a "sign of power". I made the comparison I did to show that it really isn't that impressive when you consider some of the other things in the Dresdenverse. It's certainly not impressive enough that almost the entire supernatural world would unite to prevent beings with that power access to the world.

If we're using Harry as a baseline than yes, I think the Outsiders we've seen so far can be considered "powerful" but it doesn't make much sense for that power to be what makes them so scary to the rest of the supernaturals. Heck, they may be even more powerful than that and it still wouldn't be enough to make them scary to the heavy hitters of the Dresdenverse.

I think you would be the only one to "equate being powerful" to "being as powerful as Mab". Hell, by that logic no villian in any of the books has been powerful yet!

That is not what I meant. You said that Harry being able to beat the Outsiders Knights didn't indicate that they weren't powerful (and put this word in the context explained above) because Harry was only able to beat them through his special power. I was saying that that didn't really say much about the Outsiders power because Harry still had to kill them the way he normally does.

His fight against HWWB4 was not special compared to his fights against the other villains in the series that were matched against him. It doesn't indicate to me that HWWB4 was specially powerful. The fact that HWWB4 was an Outsider was basically inconsequential to the fight because of Harrys special power.

Only if you ignore what the courts seem to be like. You don't want someone caring about each soldier they have, given the battlefield. You want someone prepared to throw legions into a meat grinder, and do it again and again and again. So, you want someone cold and calculating, able to kill their own wounded if necessary without hesitation. Hell, even doing so to their children.

Given how Cold Days worked out, Summer would have fallen to Nemisis pretty easily, which would seem like a bad thing.

The Courts do not fit the symbolism. I'm not ignoring what they're like. When it comes to the situation presented in Cold Days, Winter is more suited to defending the Gates because Jim gave them traits that made them suited to defending them. I never meant to dispute this. What I was saying was that I do not think they should have been made by Jim to be suited for defending the Gates.

In my version of things Winter wouldn't be able to be in an army like that because they would just break rank and run (because of the whole ambush predator thing again). They would not be enough loyal Winter Fae to sacrifice themselves to defend the Gates. In my version of things either there would be another group in charge of defending the Gates or there wouldn't be a situation like that at all.

Currently, Summer exists to protect the World from Mab. If Summer is the one defending the gates, then presumably Winter would have to protect the world from Summer, and this actually makes some sense, as we know Summer isn't merely friendly. The issue being that Winter would seemingly make a much worse defender.

I'm not sure I like the "Summer exists to protect the world from Winter" thing in the first place but if I was to go with it than I don't see why Winter would have to protect the world from Summer just because their role in defending the Gates is reversed. My thinking was that Summer would continue protecting the world from Winter while Winter contributed to the fight against the Outsiders by being the strategic mind behind the defense and by ferreting out infiltrators.

Because?

For Winter because it doesn't fit the symbolism and because I think having an entire separate group of the Courts solely for the purpose of defending the Gates seems like a really forced attempt to tie up two separate parts of Harrys life. For Summer because they would not be suited for it.

<snip>Forces of nature do have a purpose, though.

They...do? . Tornados and earthquakes don't have brains do they?

The ending of Cold Days just doesn't make sense to me if Molly isn't part fae. And about 3 times a book Harry mentions that Molly takes after her mother in physical appearance, not her father.
It's more likely that she made some sort of deal under duress during Proven Guilty, but I thought it was an interesting idea.

I didn't like this either. However I think that it's more likely that Jim does think it makes sense.

My thinking is that Jim was trying to think up a way to "power up" Molly so she could keep up for the rest of the series. He thought up her becoming the Winter Lady and thought it was great because it was a shocking twist and because it opens up some interesting dynamics later on. However he realized that Molly didn't really have that many ties to the Fae besides being kidnapped by them and being taught by Lea. He decided that either of those two was enough and so went with it.

[Tavar]

That is not what I meant. You said that Harry being able to beat the Outsiders Knights didn't indicate that they weren't powerful (and put this word in the context explained above) because Harry was only able to beat them through his special power. I was saying that that didn't really say much about the Outsiders power because Harry still had to kill them the way he normally does.

His fight against HWWB4 was not special compared to his fights against the other villains in the series that were matched against him. It doesn't indicate to me that HWWB4 was specially powerful. The fact that HWWB4 was an Outsider was basically inconsequential to the fight because of Harrys special power.

So because a major ability of one side is utterly ignored in a very special instance, that ability should not be used at all to judge there effectiveness at any point at all. Logic?

This might just be the major disagreement between our viewpoints, actually: I think that anyone who can go lol!no to magic is pretty damn powerful. You seem to be discounting that ability entirely, though.

The Courts do not fit the symbolism. I'm not ignoring what they're like. When it comes to the situation presented in Cold Days, Winter is more suited to defending the Gates because Jim gave them traits that made them suited to defending them. I never meant to dispute this. What I was saying was that I do not think they should have been made by Jim to be suited for defending the Gates.

In my version of things Winter wouldn't be able to be in an army like that because they would just break rank and run (because of the whole ambush predator thing again). They would not be enough loyal Winter Fae to sacrifice themselves to defend the Gates. In my version of things either there would be another group in charge of defending the Gates or there wouldn't be a situation like that at all.

So...your real problem starts with Summer Knight, right? And they fey in pretty much every instance they've shown up since?

For Winter because it doesn't fit the symbolism and because I think having an entire separate group of the Courts solely for the purpose of defending the Gates seems like a really forced attempt to tie up two separate parts of Harrys life. For Summer because they would not be suited for it.

Care to elaborate on what symbolism makes them entirely unsuited?

And I'm not sure it's really an entirely separate group of the courts. I mean, are these soldiers really separate from the rest of winter?

They...do? . Tornados and earthquakes don't have brains do they?

I was more thinking of earthquakes(tsunami's), which are all about reducing strain.

[Lamech]

Question: We've "seen" HWWB twice right? Once in the flashback and once when he got summoned for the entropy curse. IIRC, in the flashback he was bipedal had arms and could only be seen in mirrors. And when he got summoned for the entropy curse he was notably visible, and some sort of spiny fish. (Edit: The wiki claims he was a spiny cloud.)

Point is that would seem to imply that HWWB isn't one entity as we would think of it. He is more like one of the big nasties from the Far Realm (to crib DnD terms.) The spiny fish or the invisible whatsit is just one cell of a much bigger nastier whole.

Which would explain why the Walkers are supposed to be super powerful, but sort of well... suck when ever we see them "on screen".

Or I'm misremembering random details and totally off base.

[Somebloke]

I did say "power is relative" not "power is relative to Mab, Uriel, or beings who can destroy the world". Those guys were examples to show that power is relative.

In fact, I made that comparison in the first place because you said this previously:



Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't you basically committing the exact same fallacy that you are saying I committed? Why would being able to take on 2 Senior Council members and a Knight of the Cross be "a sign of power" when (as I said before) power is relative?

To compare power levels there must be a baseline. This baseline could be a pure mortal or Uriel himself. Usually it is taken as a given that Harry is that baseline (since he's the protagonist of the books) however in the original post that started this debate I was replying to Mauve Shirt. I was saying that Outsiders were scary not because of pure power. Nowhere did I say that Outsiders weren't powerful. I said that they weren't scary to basically everyone in the supernatural world because of power but because they are "different". Because that was the post you replied to, your reply to mine heavily implied that you thought Outsiders were scary because of pure power. You basically said that being able to put up a very good fight two SC members and a KOTC was a "sign of power". I made the comparison I did to show that it really isn't that impressive when you consider some of the other things in the Dresdenverse. It's certainly not impressive enough that almost the entire supernatural world would unite to prevent beings with that power access to the world.

If we're using Harry as a baseline than yes, I think the Outsiders we've seen so far can be considered "powerful" but it doesn't make much sense for that power to be what makes them so scary to the rest of the supernaturals. Heck, they may be even more powerful than that and it still wouldn't be enough to make them scary to the heavy hitters of the Dresdenverse.



That is not what I meant. You said that Harry being able to beat the Outsiders Knights didn't indicate that they weren't powerful (and put this word in the context explained above) because Harry was only able to beat them through his special power. I was saying that that didn't really say much about the Outsiders power because Harry still had to kill them the way he normally does.

His fight against HWWB4 was not special compared to his fights against the other villains in the series that were matched against him. It doesn't indicate to me that HWWB4 was specially powerful. The fact that HWWB4 was an Outsider was basically inconsequential to the fight because of Harrys special power.



The Courts do not fit the symbolism. I'm not ignoring what they're like. When it comes to the situation presented in Cold Days, Winter is more suited to defending the Gates because Jim gave them traits that made them suited to defending them. I never meant to dispute this. What I was saying was that I do not think they should have been made by Jim to be suited for defending the Gates.

In my version of things Winter wouldn't be able to be in an army like that because they would just break rank and run (because of the whole ambush predator thing again). They would not be enough loyal Winter Fae to sacrifice themselves to defend the Gates. In my version of things either there would be another group in charge of defending the Gates or there wouldn't be a situation like that at all.



I'm not sure I like the "Summer exists to protect the world from Winter" thing in the first place but if I was to go with it than I don't see why Winter would have to protect the world from Summer just because their role in defending the Gates is reversed. My thinking was that Summer would continue protecting the world from Winter while Winter contributed to the fight against the Outsiders by being the strategic mind behind the defense and by ferreting out infiltrators.



For Winter because it doesn't fit the symbolism and because I think having an entire separate group of the Courts solely for the purpose of defending the Gates seems like a really forced attempt to tie up two separate parts of Harrys life. For Summer because they would not be suited for it.



They...do? . Tornados and earthquakes don't have brains do they?



I didn't like this either. However I think that it's more likely that Jim does think it makes sense.

My thinking is that Jim was trying to think up a way to "power up" Molly so she could keep up for the rest of the series. He thought up her becoming the Winter Lady and thought it was great because it was a shocking twist and because it opens up some interesting dynamics later on. However he realized that Molly didn't really have that many ties to the Fae besides being kidnapped by them and being taught by Lea. He decided that either of those two was enough and so went with it.

Isn't Molly a member of a Fey nation? Some sort of gnomish artisans, or something. That alone would probably count.

Hell, it was probably Lea's idea.

According to Amazon, Shell Games is out in December? Still, the latest Verus came out recently, and Broken Homes in the Rivers of London series is out July, so I can hardly complain of feeling deprived.

[Mauve Shirt]

Shell games? Not skin game? Must have changed it. Also, what's the new Verus book called?

Count, you're cynically metatheorizing. No fun.

[Somebloke]

Shell games? Not skin game? Must have changed it. Also, what's the new Verus book called?

Count, you're cynically metatheorizing. No fun.

Dammit! That's twice I've gotten the name wrong!

And Chosen Is Slated for September.

[Eldan]

Isn't Molly a member of a Fey nation? Some sort of gnomish artisans, or something. That alone would probably count.

The Svartalfar. Though, do they even Count as fey?

[Soras Teva Gee]

The Svartalfar. Though, do they even Count as fey?

Well they're elf/dwarfs from Norse mythology.... umm so maybe?

Their attitude doesn't seem very Wyld though and neutrality means not in the Courts.

[Tavar]

Pretty sure they've been linked to Fair: Harry's awesome summoning circle was made by them, if I remember correctly. Either Non Aligned Fey, or Winter aligned.

[Soras Teva Gee]

That is right, they didn't like working with iron right?

Though the Fomor have shown that's not automatically the same thing, but definitely a connection.

[Tavar]

That is right, they didn't like working with iron right?

Though the Fomor have shown that's not automatically the same thing, but definitely a connection.

Pretty sure he actually calls them faire, so I take it as pretty definitive.

[lord_khaine]

Svartalfar litteraly means something on the line of black elf, so i think them being fey is pretty definite

[Mauve Shirt]

OMG I didn't notice before that Kringle said to Harry at the end of Cold Days that he could have just straight up removed the Winter Mantle on Halloween! And Harry's just like "What, you mean masks right?"
That's what I love about Harry as a hero. He's gaining all these crazy powers, Mary Sue levels of powers, but he's still just a doofus, even after Ghost Story.

[Mauve Shirt]

First chapters!!! (YouTube reading, so go get your headphones)

First Line:

Spoiler

Show

There was a ticking time bomb inside my head and the one person I trusted to go in and get it out hadn't shown up or spoken to me for more than a year.

Discussion of these chapters must go in spoilers.