Leveraging Geomancer in Gestalt

[ezekielraiden]

So, while I wait for progress on potential PbP games, I've been thinking about other builds that might interest me. One PrC I've always liked, but struggled to make good, is the Geomancer. Prereqs like a Theurge, but only advancing one class? Surely you jest! But as many have noted before, its weaknesses mostly disappear in gestalt, where you don't delay either side to take it and can still progress the other class (and it's not verboten since it's not dual-progression).

Plus, as I've confirmed, Natural Spell doesn't care what kind of spell you're casting, and Academic (or Dynamic) Priest dovetails with Spell Versatility to ensure that all of your casting uses only one stat. This got me to thinking, I had an idea for playing a slightly more "true to the myths" version of Merlin, a Wizard who can transform into animals in addition to his academic magic both awesome and subtle.

So. How would one go about reasonably optimizing a SAD (Int-based) Druid//Wizard/Geomancer? I know the downfall of double-caster gestalts is the action economy. How can I work around that? What other PrCs are worth considering, on either side? I'd like to keep Geomancer 10 (possibly split up, but still all 10 levels), so that's 7 Wizard levels and (theoretically) 17 Druid levels to play with. People rave about Planar Shepherd, would that be worthwhile? And since I'll have bloody tons of skills as a SAD Int caster, what's worth taking?

[Debatra]

By normal Gestalt rules, you can't take a PrC on both sides at the same level. It's a fairly common rule to be ignored, but it's there and often enforced. But we can ignore that for the sake of discussion.

Action economy is dealt with in the same ways as any other primary caster. It's not really a "downfall".

You might want to delay going into Geomancer until after level five so you can take Spontaneous Divination (Complete Champion, page 52). Even with the interpretation of "a spell that you know" instead of the original text being vague enough to allow a single-class Wizard to cast from any list, having a second class greatly expands the versatility of the ACF.

Planar Shepherd has never really been my thing, so I'll just step aside on that one and let someone else explain why they think it's so great. (That said, it's also the only PrC I can think of off the top of my head that has both full casting and wild shape progression.)

The Geomancer's Drifts may do what they do by changing your physical form; but because they come from class features, they remain active while you're in Wild Shape.

If you want to be a Knowledge-focused character, consider Able Learner. Geomancer loses a lot of Knowledge skills compared to the Wizard; but if a skill has ever been a class skill, it retains the "level+3" maximum for skill ranks no matter what classes you take.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Geomancer doesn't let you determine bonus slots with the same ability score. Illumian sigils do, and Aeshkrau is notably good because Strength is very easy to boost. Worth keeping in mind if you really want to match the two types of spellcasting, but not in keeping with the Merlin theme.


Merlin is probably decently modelled as wizard, because alter self and polymorph are good spells. If you are set on druid, druid 13//wizard 3/geomancer 10 is your base. Continuing from there, Master of Many Forms suits the form-altering theme, and the 7th-level ability is very good, but it doesn't advance casting. Master Transmogrifist does advance casting (a bit), and grants the same ability, but at level 8, with a really nice capstone at 10.

[Goaty14]

Planar Shepherd has never really been my thing, so I'll just step aside on that one and let someone else explain why they think it's so great. (That said, it's also the only PrC I can think of off the top of my head that has both full casting and wild shape progression.)

Basically either you become a PS of a plane with AWESOME traits (i.e dead magic, timelessness, fast time, slow time, subjective gravity, natural fire damage etc), and go around with a planar bubble of that, or you pick a plane with AWESOME outsiders (i.e Elemental Fire for efreeti, Elysium for Angels, etc) and wild shape into those for all of their Ex, Su, SLA, (and arguably natural, such as innate spellcasting) abilities.

At worst you could make a Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10 of Elysium that wild shapes into a Solar for 20th level cleric casting.

[ezekielraiden]

Geomancer doesn't let you determine bonus slots with the same ability score. Illumian sigils do, and Aeshkrau is notably good because Strength is very easy to boost. Worth keeping in mind if you really want to match the two types of spellcasting, but not in keeping with the Merlin theme.

That's what Academic Priest is for. Sets everything but DCs by Int for one divine casting class. Spell Versatility then takes care of DCs, hence why it's desirable to max out Geomancer so that all my Druid spells can use Int for DCs.

Merlin is probably decently modelled as wizard, because alter self and polymorph are good spells. If you are set on druid, druid 13//wizard 3/geomancer 10 is your base. Continuing from there, Master of Many Forms suits the form-altering theme, and the 7th-level ability is very good, but it doesn't advance casting. Master Transmogrifist does advance casting (a bit), and grants the same ability, but at level 8, with a really nice capstone at 10.

Interesting. I'll keep those in mind.

[liquidformat]

where is Academic Priest from I haven't heard of it before?

[OgresAreCute]

where is Academic Priest from I haven't heard of it before?

It's in Legends of the Twins, one of the Dragonlance books. Academic Priest switches part of your divine casting to Int, Dynamic Priest switches part of your divine casting to Cha. Nice for Healers (if you want to play one for some reason) since it makes them Charisma SAD.

[PrismCat21]

The first gestalt character I ever played included Geomancer. I absolutely loved it.
The Drifts I used more for flavor than function but they still came into play a lot.

By normal Gestalt rules, you can't take a PrC on both sides at the same level.

Sort of. It's not an actual rule. It's specified directly as a 'guideline'.

Still, like you said, often ignored anyway.

[ezekielraiden]

The first gestalt character I ever played included Geomancer. I absolutely loved it.
The Drifts I used more for flavor than function but they still came into play a lot.

Yeah that's more or less where I'm going with them too. It's sort of like a set of tells that actually give (small) bonuses. Might see if I can work with the DM to make some dragon-flavored ones (since the symbol of Wales is a dragon, after all).

Sort of. It's not an actual rule. It's specified directly as a 'guideline'.

Still, like you said, often ignored anyway.

Correct. I don't want to assume I *will* be able to take two PrCs at once, but many groups allow it. Like how many groups allow dual-progression PrCs as long as you aren't exceeding your character level for something (e.g. not taking Wizard AND Mystic Theurge boosting Cleric and Wizard).

In general, it sounds like it's pretty hard to outdo Druid 20 on that side. So what do people recommend on the other? I hear Geometer is pretty good, and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil would fit in nicely since I have 7 levels on the Wizard side unaccounted for.

Any suggestions on school specialization/forbidding, or races? I'd probably forbid Necromancy and...I'm not sure, maybe Illusion? Human is always good, of course...

[Debatra]

Not every wizard has to be an Illusionist, but losing the most versatile school is just about the dumbest thing you can do. At any rate, your forbidden schools should definitely be based on what you want to do with yourself. Druid spells can cover a good chunk of Transmutation (including Shapechange).

[weckar]

The best geomancer gestalt I've ever seen used Paladin casting on one side to get Battle Blessing on everything. Good times.

[Nifft]

The best geomancer gestalt I've ever seen used Paladin casting on one side to get Battle Blessing on everything. Good times.

That's pretty great.

It does take a while to get there though -- Paladin 8 is when you get level 2 spells.

[weckar]

True. You could sneak it in on a prestige Paladin, but I'm just not a brie kind of guy.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The best geomancer gestalt I've ever seen used Paladin casting on one side to get Battle Blessing on everything. Good times.

I've made builds like that in the past, but the problem is getting "is a paladin spell" to count as "spellcasting parameter", which is tricky considering that it isn't explicitly mentioned, and "spellcasting parameter" is not a game term, so there's no easy definition on hand.

Geometer specifies you "acquire and prepare spells as normal", which I take to mean that you can't consider wizard slots to be paladin slots or vice versa, and wizard spells aren't considered to be on the paladin list for you (since you acquire them "normally", chosen from the wizard list) and vice versa. Since "is an X spell" primarily comes from its association with a spell list (which is where it gets its spell level, for example--see also Sword of the Arcane Order for the ability to cast wizard spells from non-wizard slots), you aren't quite certain "is a paladin spell" doesn't fall under "acquir[ing] and prepar[ing] normally".

For the Battle Blessing trick to work, you need to read Geometer in a way that says "when I cast a prepared wizard spell from my wizard slot, I can change the parameters so that it uses Wisdom for its save DC, I don't incur arcane spell failure chance, I can use a divine focus, and it's considered a paladin spell for the purposes of Battle Blessing".

I don't personally think it's out of line to assume you can do this, but it's not a given, so there's my nitpick .

[ezekielraiden]

Any good Wizard/arcane PrCs people can recommend that improve action economy? Swiftblade seems neat, but loses four spell levels and is pretty much only about haste...

[ViperMagnum357]

Any good Wizard/arcane PrCs people can recommend that improve action economy? Swiftblade seems neat, but loses four spell levels and is pretty much only about haste...

Well, Swiftblade is mostly about losing 3 caster levels to get your extra standard or move action each round at Swiftblade 9, which fits into most single stack wizard 20 builds-squeezing your 9th's in right before Epic. In Gestalt, Factotum 20 is very basic but has all the nuts and bolts for a caster looking to build off Intelligence, or at least not dump it.

[ezekielraiden]

I've seen a lot of stuff indicating that Archmage is a good PrC even for a single-class Wizard, and since I'll have tons of spell slots, its SLA ability sounds that much better. Any suggestions on "dippable" Wizard PrCs? Geometer doesn't hurt, but doesn't seem to help much either. Master Specialist helps prepare for Archmage, but only getting 2-3 levels out of it almost feels wasteful.

[Rebel7284]

If your DM allows battle blessing, then you can use something like Alternate Spell Source to qualify as Paladin 4//Wizard 4. Of course getting two feats at level 4 can be problematic.

You can always try fast progression classes to help with things. For example:

Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur Priest 2/Geomancer 10[+2 Wiz, +8 Ur]/X 2 //
Factotum 6/Wizard +2/Factotum +2/Wizard +8/Y 2

[Rebel7284]

Actually Cleric3//Wizard 3 Entry and then take Paladin and Geomancer at the same time makes more sense for the Battle Blessing build. You give up some of the dual progression, but then having swift action spells is worth it.

[noob]

Not every wizard has to be an Illusionist, but losing the most versatile school is just about the dumbest thing you can do. At any rate, your forbidden schools should definitely be based on what you want to do with yourself. Druid spells can cover a good chunk of Transmutation (including Shapechange).

Sorry but forbidden schools are forbidden for all the classes and even for magical items that directly casts spells from those schools.

[PrismCat21]

Sorry but forbidden schools are forbidden for all the classes and even for magical items that directly casts spells from those schools.

Your name seems fitting.
I'm going to assume you're referring to a Wizard's prohibited schools of magic due to specialization. Since that's the only meaning I can figure for 'forbidden schools' in the given context.

Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands.

Scrolls are the only magical item listed that Wizards are not allowed to use that 'casts' the prohibited spell. Wands are the only other magical item listed, period, that Wizards are not allowed to use prohibited schools of magic from.
There is nothing that says Wizards cannot use other magical items that contain or use magic from they're prohibited schools.

It a Wizard chooses to have prohibited schools, it effects Only that which is gained by the class, Wizard.
Taking any other class or prestige class that grants you casting, allows you to use those schools of magic as it relates to that particular class.

Complete Arcane I believe, specifically calls out multiclassing as an easy solution to get around a Wizard's prohibited schools.

.
If your table does things differently, that's fine. It's a houserule.
Houserules affect that game only, no one elses.

[OgresAreCute]

-multiclassed specialist stuff-

The relevant text is on page 185 in Complete Arcane, under the heading "Multiclass specialists and prohibited schools" if anyone wants to look it up.

[noob]

Your name seems fitting.
I'm going to assume you're referring to a Wizard's prohibited schools of magic due to specialization. Since that's the only meaning I can figure for 'forbidden schools' in the given context.


Scrolls are the only magical item listed that Wizards are not allowed to use that 'casts' the prohibited spell. Wands are the only other magical item listed, period, that Wizards are not allowed to use prohibited schools of magic from.
There is nothing that says Wizards cannot use other magical items that contain or use magic from they're prohibited schools.

It a Wizard chooses to have prohibited schools, it effects Only that which is gained by the class, Wizard.
Taking any other class or prestige class that grants you casting, allows you to use those schools of magic as it relates to that particular class.

Complete Arcane I believe, specifically calls out multiclassing as an easy solution to get around a Wizard's prohibited schools.

.
If your table does things differently, that's fine. It's a houserule.
Houserules affect that game only, no one elses.

well as you can see nothing in that text says it is only forbidden to cast them as wizard spells: they say

Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard

They are not available to the wizard at all if they wanted to mean that he can not cast them with his wizard powers then they would have said "the wizard can not cast them with his wizard spell slots" or some variant of it.
Then they go and specify that even if you use a scroll or a wand you still can not cast them which does not means that magical items that are not wands or scrolls allows to cast those spells it is just that they did not mention all the list of alternate ways to cast spells.

and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands.

saying that the specialist can never ever cast spells from that school is equally a ruling as saying "as long as it is not a scroll or a wand the wizard can cast all the spells fine even if he use his wizard spell slots for that because I go around and entirely ignore the first part of the sentence because I assume that it is just an introduction to the restriction for scrolls and wands" or even saying "you can not use your wizard spellcasting to cast spells from those schools but you can use your druid spellcasting"
The rules as written does not contradict directly any of those three interpretations but the first part clearly makes me believe in the fist interpretation and all the gms I played with agree with my interpretation.

You do not stop being a wizard when you muticlass in druid and start casting druid spells so you do not lose the restriction which is never said to be specific to wizard spells.

[Nifft]

I was trying to find an SRD-only refutation to noob but all I could find was this:

Class Features

A multiclass character gets all the class features of all his or her classes but must also suffer the consequences of the special restrictions of all his or her classes. (Exception: A character who acquires the barbarian class does not become illiterate.)

In the special case of turning undead, both clerics and experienced paladins have the same ability. If the character’s paladin level is 4th or higher, her effective turning level is her cleric level plus her paladin level minus 3.

In the special case of uncanny dodge, both experienced barbarians and experienced rogues have the same ability. When a barbarian/rogue would gain uncanny dodge a second time (for her second class), she instead gains improved uncanny dodge, if she does not already have it. Her barbarian and rogue levels stack to determine the rogue level an attacker needs to flank her.

In the special case of obtaining a familiar, both wizards and sorcerers have the same ability. A sorcerer/wizard stacks his sorcerer and wizard levels to determine the familiar’s natural armor, Intelligence score, and special abilities.

(...)

Spells

The character gains spells from all of his or her spellcasting classes and keeps a separate spell list for each class. If a spell’s effect is based on the class level of the caster, the player must keep track of which class’s spell list the character is casting the spell from.

The class feature section might support that reading, though the spells section is possibly a contradiction -- if you keep the spell lists separate, then how does the Wizard's class feature impact the other class list?

Anyway, that union of class restrictions might be where the argument is coming from -- though I suspect that noob's reading is not the intent of the rules, given how it's specifically contradicted in later products.

[ezekielraiden]

well as you can see nothing in that text says it is only forbidden to cast them as wizard spells: they say

They are not available to the wizard at all if they wanted to mean that he can not cast them with his wizard powers then they would have said "the wizard can not cast them with his wizard spell slots" or some variant of it.
Then they go and specify that even if you use a scroll or a wand you still can not cast them which does not means that magical items that are not wands or scrolls allows to cast those spells it is just that they did not mention all the list of alternate ways to cast spells.

saying that the specialist can never ever cast spells from that school is equally a ruling as saying "as long as it is not a scroll or a wand the wizard can cast all the spells fine even if he use his wizard spell slots for that because I go around and entirely ignore the first part of the sentence because I assume that it is just an introduction to the restriction for scrolls and wands" or even saying "you can not use your wizard spellcasting to cast spells from those schools but you can use your druid spellcasting"
The rules as written does not contradict directly any of those three interpretations but the first part clearly makes me believe in the fist interpretation and all the gms I played with agree with my interpretation.

You do not stop being a wizard when you muticlass in druid and start casting druid spells so you do not lose the restriction which is never said to be specific to wizard spells.

The relevant section in Complete Arcane (page 185, right-hand column, "Multiclass Specialists and Prohibited Schools") explicitly states that a Specialist Wizard who takes levels in another spellcasting class--even an Arcane one--can both cast spells of the appropriate level for that other class, and can use spell-trigger and spell-completion items freely regardless of her level in that class. "One way around at least part of this restriction is for a specialist wizard to take levels in sorcerer, using her sorcerer spellcasting ability to master the spells and magic items she cannot use as a wizard."

If taking sorcerer levels is sufficient, surely taking druid levels would be as well, since it's a wholly different casting tradition.

For my own part, though, I think either Abjurer or Transmuter will probably be my specialization pick, and my prohibited schools will be Necromancy and Evocation. I don't like death-magic. And while explosions are fun, Druid can do more than enough elemental attack stuff. Transmuter and Abjurer have nice alternate features, too, which I'll be heavily thinking on.

[noob]

The relevant section in Complete Arcane (page 185, right-hand column, "Multiclass Specialists and Prohibited Schools") explicitly states that a Specialist Wizard who takes levels in another spellcasting class--even an Arcane one--can both cast spells of the appropriate level for that other class, and can use spell-trigger and spell-completion items freely regardless of her level in that class. "One way around at least part of this restriction is for a specialist wizard to take levels in sorcerer, using her sorcerer spellcasting ability to master the spells and magic items she cannot use as a wizard."

If taking sorcerer levels is sufficient, surely taking druid levels would be as well, since it's a wholly different casting tradition.

For my own part, though, I think either Abjurer or Transmuter will probably be my specialization pick, and my prohibited schools will be Necromancy and Evocation. I don't like death-magic. And while explosions are fun, Druid can do more than enough elemental attack stuff. Transmuter and Abjurer have nice alternate features, too, which I'll be heavily thinking on.

Extension manuals do not override core for core rules.
Which for example means that most of the rule compendium just does nothing at all.

[ezekielraiden]

Extension manuals do not override core for core rules.
Which for example means that most of the rule compendium just does nothing at all.

Well, while this may be the way you have approached things, at the very least it is not the way the DMs I am working with have chosen to operate.

Furthermore, by your own admission, nothing is explicitly said either way, so I'm not exactly sure what is getting "overridden" by the core books in this case.

[PrismCat21]

For my own part, though, I think either Abjurer or Transmuter will probably be my specialization pick, and my prohibited schools will be Necromancy and Evocation. I don't like death-magic. And while explosions are fun, Druid can do more than enough elemental attack stuff. Transmuter and Abjurer have nice alternate features, too, which I'll be heavily thinking on.

Sounds like a good plan. :)
If you can fit it in, Abjurant Champion would do you some good.
Enhances your Abjuration spells. Both Arcane and Divine.

[ezekielraiden]

Alright. I think I've settled on:
Human Druid 20||Wizard 3/Geomancer 10/Master Specialist 1/Abjurant Champion 1/Archmage 5. The actual order of taking the Wizard PrCs will probably vary a lot because I'll be weaving Geomancer in to keep Spell Versatility in line with my maximum spell level.

We already get Able Learner as a guaranteed feat, and with a couple of extra feats on hand, I should be good to go. Academic Priest, Spell Focus (Trans), Spell Focus (Abj), Natural Spell, Spell Mastery, Uncanny Forethought...it's a long list but I think I can make it work.

I would love to take more levels of Abjurant Champion before Epic, but there's just not enough room. The first level has much of the meat of the class though. And Archmage is great 'Cause sacrificing a few Wizard slots for neat tricks is a good deal when you have the whole Druid side to fall back on.

[ezekielraiden]

Okay! Having gotten some feedback and approvals, my build has changed somewhat but not dramatically. As a note, although my character is a Conjurer (and indeed taking a level of Master Specialist), I'm not super excited about summoning tons of creatures because I don't want to slow the game down or the like. So, while summon-boosting (feats, spells, etc.) is not off the table, it's not a priority for me right off the bat. I have ideas (and some requests) for what stuff I should have, and I've been reading through Eggynack's handbook and the handful of Wizard books (especially Treantmonk's), but my comparative lack of experience with this level of play seemed to warrant asking around. I may not need all advice (it's not like I have to optimize perfectly with this build!), but I *will* consider carefully any recommendations people have.

Everything listed has been approved by the DM (including the Lawful Good alignment as a Druid). Pre-game crafting is allowed. Feats listed as "house bonus" are coming from house-rules of various sorts; "feature bonus" come from classes or similar.

Caleb Drakesoul, LG Human Gestalt Wizard/Druid, level 13

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Side 1: Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 8
Side 2: Wizard (Conjurer) 3/Geomancer 8/Master Specialist (Conjurer) 1/Archmage 1
Banned Wizard schools: Necromancy, Evocation
Aligned plane: Celestia (Note: DM has explicitly forbidden time shenanigans; this plane was chosen both for its relative mildness and its fluff value, as Caleb worships Bahamut)

ACFs: Voice of the City, Planar Druid sub level (Druid 4); Abrupt Jaunt

Ability Scores (originally Int 18, increased with each +1 at 4, 8, and 12)
Str 10
Dex 8
Con 16
Int 21
Wis 16
Cha 12

Traits: Suspicious, Aggressive
Feats
L1: Academic Priest, Greensinger Initiate [Human], Spell Focus (Conj) [Flaw: Fussy], Spell Focus (Trans) [Flaw: Love of Nature]
L3: Craft Wondrous Item
L6: Natural Spell
L9: Obtain Familiar
L12: Dragon Wild Shape

Feature Bonus: Scribe Scroll, Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
House Bonus: Dodge, Able Learner, Imp. Unarmed Strike, Point Blank Shot, Endurance, Combat Casting, Eschew Materials, Craft Magical Arms and Armor, Track, Darkstalker

(Crafting stuff taken in large part because pre-game crafting is allowed, which stretches that 110k GP a lot further.)

Standard WBL: 110,000 GP

Purchased items:
Prayer Bead (Karma), 20,000 GP
Ring of Enduring Arcana, 6,000 GP
Handy Haversack, 2,000 GP
Ring of Protection +2, 8,000 GP
Rod of Bodily Restoration, 3,100 GP
Pearl of Speech, 600 GP

Crafted items (prices are for material costs):
Orange prism Ioun stone, 15,000 GP
Dusty rose Ioun stone, 2,500 GP
Blessed book, 6,250 GP
Belt of Battle, 6,000 GP
Hat of Disguise/Headband of Intellect +4, 8,900 GP
Vest of Resistance +4, 8,000 GP
Wilding Clasps, 2,000 GP each (# depends on how many items I want to benefit, but at least 3, possibly as many as 6)

Current item cost total (assuming 6 Wilding Clasps): 98,350 GP
Remaining budget: 11,650 GP

I am mostly looking, right now, for advice on items to buy/craft, and spells to learn as a Wizard (likely through buying scrolls/paying to scribe from another's book). I could easily drop the Vest of Resistance down to +3 to get a bit more cash if need be. That plus cutting back on Clasps could get me to ~20k.

I have purchased the Karma bead and the Ring of Enduring Arcana, and crafted the orange prism Ioun stone in order to increase my CL to avoid letting (greater) luminous armor get easily dispelled. Total dispel DC with stone, bead, and ring is 33 (11+13+4+1+4), meaning dispel magic cannot remove them even on a natural 20, though the greater version can (with about a 20% chance of success). Forcing an enemy to blow a 6th level slot to try to dispel my buffs seems pretty obviously worthwhile. I could add in an ankh of ascension but (a) I don't want to push things too far and (b) I think there are probably more useful things I could have in that slot.