She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

[urkthegurk]

Have y'all discussed overlap etc at all? Would their be any point in running an artificer in a gramarist campaign?

[jojolagger]

Have y'all discussed overlap etc at all? Would their be any point in running an artificer in a gramarist campaign?

Yes. A arty doesn't need an external caster to make a magic item with spell X, and is generally the best class for getting price reductions on crafting magic items.
Plus, Magic items draw on a larger list of options. 8 "schools" of grammarie and 5 principles per school. 40 options vs. every item ever printed and then some. The point I'm trying to make is, can a grammarist make a Bastard Sword the can be wielded as a shortsword? Or Alter planar time traits more significantly than 4 or 1/4th? How about a 5d4 round stun, no save, and fairly cheap?

Yes, Grammarie can do a lot of cool stuff. And it is awesome. But it's tier 2 at most, as magic still has "I win" cards. Unless you abuse silver out for full spellcasting, however you still don't get magic items, which can sometimes be better than their component spells.

[General Patton]

I don't know about that. I mean, with gramary, you can construct super weapons that clearly should inflict infinite damage without a saving throw. Really, I made a sound cannon that can subject a hemispherical area in front of it to the combined energy of an arbitrarily high volume of noise accumulated over an arbitrarily long duration. You think 100 people talking at once is bad? With Create Sound, I could get 4 people talking for weeks or even years and hit you with the sum of all that in one instant. This should, by all accounts, vibrate your subatomic particles apart.

[jojolagger]

I don't know about that. I mean, with gramary, you can construct super weapons that clearly should inflict infinite damage without a saving throw. Really, I made a sound cannon that can subject a hemispherical area in front of it to the combined energy of an arbitrarily high volume of noise accumulated over an arbitrarily long duration. You think 100 people talking at once is bad? With Create Sound, I could get 4 people talking for weeks or even years and hit you with the sum of all that in one instant. This should, by all accounts, vibrate your subatomic particles apart.

which is ignoring the ebb limit on transformers and the difficulty of storing the energy to be used. You need access to epic to lose less than 10% of energy stored in a delayed spell loop per cycle, or some really expensive ascended metal to store the energy.
Also, Silence kinda stops that weapon in its tracks.

[General Patton]

which is ignoring the ebb limit on transformers and the difficulty of storing the energy to be used. You need access to epic to lose less than 10% of energy stored in a delayed spell loop per cycle, or some really expensive ascended metal to store the energy.
Also, Silence kinda stops that weapon in its tracks.

Ebb limit? Pfft, naw man, you have this sound occurring on a demiplane in an enclosed space made out of portals that loop back around to the other side. Because all of the sound is trapped by the portals and keeps passing through the same space, you can accumulate sonic energy without limit. Opening a portal inside of this space will cause a nigh-infinite decibel wave of destruction to rush out and destroy pretty much everything. The only defense against this is a black filter or a vacuum.

[jojolagger]

Ebb limit?

Transformers going in either direction are limited to the check result in ebbs/round. Transformer to Sonic blast is also the only way to actually deal damage RAW.

Pfft, naw man, you have this sound occurring on a demiplane in an enclosed space made out of portals that loop back around to the other side. Because all of the sound is trapped by the portals and keeps passing through the same space, you can accumulate sonic energy without limit.

It would be impossible to make it completely lossless without making it unusable, and anything used to generate sound would be destroyed even if it worked as you believe. (ie, whatever increases the sound will be destroyed by the sound.)

Opening a portal inside of this space will cause a nigh-infinite decibel wave of destruction to rush out and destroy pretty much everything. The only defense against this is a black filter or a vacuum.

Any immunity to sonic, the Silence spell, another portal, surelife with sound selected...

Also, the portals used to cause the loop on the demi-plane would collapse from from any volume of sound sufficient to deal damage long before the system got to a point threatening to large areas.

[urkthegurk]

Thanks for the feedback ;)

[General Patton]

Transformers going in either direction are limited to the check result in ebbs/round. Transformer to Sonic blast is also the only way to actually deal damage RAW.

I know about those limits. Repeating it as a question and following it with "Pfft, naw man" was my way of declaring it to be irrelevant to this issue. Transformers may be the source of noise, but I'm storing it in the form of an obscenely loud space.

It would be impossible to make it completely lossless without making it unusable, and anything used to generate sound would be destroyed even if it worked as you believe. (ie, whatever increases the sound will be destroyed by the sound.)

The only losses would be from the conversion of sound energy into heat. You're simply using portals to make a continuous space such that there is no net separation of the energy over time (ie, the inverse square law doesn't apply if the thing in question meets back up with itself regardless of the direction of travel). It shouldn't be that hard to magically project sound into that space from the outside.

Any immunity to sonic, the Silence spell, another portal, surelife with sound selected...

I feel like allowing sonic immunity to protect from a 300 decibel shockwave whose sound pressure is 20000 atmospheres and delivers 1000000 terrawatts/m^2 is comparable to allowing fire immunity to protect from the sun, a nuclear furnace that completely sunders your atoms. Your definition of immunity is a little extreme and taken far too literally. Also, this level of noise would, in addition to functioning as bludgeoning damage, cause localized earthquakes, possibly liquifying the ground.

Also, the portals used to cause the loop on the demi-plane would collapse from from any volume of sound sufficient to deal damage long before the system got to a point threatening to large areas.

Sound really shouldn't damage a portal from the front, and the backside of the portal used to release sound from your weapon could be shielded with an orange filter vacuum.

[Draken]

I feel like allowing sonic immunity to protect from a 300 decibel shockwave whose sound pressure is 20000 atmospheres and delivers 1000000 terrawatts/m^2 is comparable to allowing fire immunity to protect from the sun, a nuclear furnace that completely sunders your atoms. Your definition of immunity is a little extreme and taken far too literally. Also, this level of noise would, in addition to functioning as bludgeoning damage, cause localized earthquakes, possibly liquifying the ground.

Bluntly speaking, this is not what the rules say.

I recall reading somewhere in this thread that Kellus wanted to try and move away from the age-old arguments of how D&D mechanics stop making sense when put into our real-world physics (acid as energy, fire as an element) and tried to move into the theoretical realm of finally treating the outlandish workings of magic and etc as the factual physics and chemestry of a D&D world.

Under the above paradigm, sonic is not a force vibraitng molecules in its medium to propagate what is essentially a concussive force. It is a form of energy akin to heat (fire) and electricity, the same applies to cold and acid.

So Silence will stop this ultimate soundwave, because that is what the spell does. It neutralizes all sound. Fire immunity does, in fact, protect from the fires of the Sun (who may or may not physically be a god who may or may not secretly be evil).

The soundwave will also not cause earthquakes, it will, however, damage the ground, which will at most create difficult terrain and level structures, but it will not liquefy the ground and it will not actually cause tremors.

------

Also, since this is my first post here in this thread, I must give an all but demanded great work for Kellus. Because this is bloody impressive.

[General Patton]

Bluntly speaking, this is not what the rules say.

I recall reading somewhere in this thread that Kellus wanted to try and move away from the age-old arguments of how D&D mechanics stop making sense when put into our real-world physics (acid as energy, fire as an element) and tried to move into the theoretical realm of finally treating the outlandish workings of magic and etc as the factual physics and chemestry of a D&D world.

Under the above paradigm, sonic is not a force vibraitng molecules in its medium to propagate what is essentially a concussive force. It is a form of energy akin to heat (fire) and electricity, the same applies to cold and acid.

So Silence will stop this ultimate soundwave, because that is what the spell does. It neutralizes all sound. Fire immunity does, in fact, protect from the fires of the Sun (who may or may not physically be a god who may or may not secretly be evil).

The soundwave will also not cause earthquakes, it will, however, damage the ground, which will at most create difficult terrain and level structures, but it will not liquefy the ground and it will not actually cause tremors.

------

Also, since this is my first post here in this thread, I must give an all but demanded great work for Kellus. Because this is bloody impressive.

Let me reiterate: 1000000 TERRAWATTS/m^2. This is going to separate all of the individual molecules, split the molecules apart and then overcome the binding energy and split the atomic nuclei, reducing everything it hits to a subatomic plasma. 20000 atmospheres is equal to 290000 psi. I'm pretty sure that will destroy any physical matter, no saving throw.

[jojolagger]

Let me reiterate: 1000000 TERRAWATTS/m^2. This is going to separate all of the individual molecules, split the molecules apart and then overcome the binding energy and split the atomic nuclei, reducing everything it hits to a subatomic plasma. 20000 atmospheres is equal to 290000 psi. I'm pretty sure that will destroy any physical matter, no saving throw.

This is D&D. Not even Newtonian physics applies. Nowhere do the rules allow you to use real world physics, nor do molecules, atomic nuclei, or Terrawatts exist.
Now, stop killing cat girls and build your sonic gun as per the rules.

[Nanoblack]

Let me reiterate: 1000000 TERRAWATTS/m^2. This is going to separate all of the individual molecules, split the molecules apart and then overcome the binding energy and split the atomic nuclei, reducing everything it hits to a subatomic plasma. 20000 atmospheres is equal to 290000 psi. I'm pretty sure that will destroy any physical matter, no saving throw.

Right. IRL it definitely would, but RAW moar damage means just that. Not amount of d6 will change a fireball into an orb of sound or what have you into a disintegrate at a molecular level.

[radmelon]

Of course, most DMs would probably allow said superweapons to create a crater,simply due to logic. I try to bend the rules slightly to make things interesting when I DM.

[jojolagger]

Of course, most DMs would probably allow said superweapons to create a crater,simply due to logic. I try to bend the rules slightly to make things interesting when I DM.

A crystalOut that does lots of sonic damage would leave a crater as a result of it also damaging the ground. A crystalOut keyed to an iceIn wrapped around phlogiston, assuming high enough skill checks to pass the energy around, would be capable of cutting 3.8111 feet into a stone floor with only average damage.
Combine that with the damage being a 980 ft. cone, and you can destroy more than 18 million cubic feet of stone with a single shot.
Just build the 98d6 sonic cannon.

[radmelon]

That is very true. I forgot to factor in the actual terrain damage from the blast.

[Volthawk]

One or two Graughtsman questions:

1) Do Graughtsmen have any way of mimicking spells for magic items with spell prerequisites (ie all of them other than just straight +x gear)?

2) Does Real Steel only work on biostructure generated from metal? Asking since it says 'regardless of the metal used', despite that fact that organic matter can also be used.

Also, general biostructure question: Can you use biostructure made from wood to fuel simple orthagonal engines (or biostructure made from bone to fuel ballistic engines), or does the conversion stop it counting as bone in terms of usability as fuel?

[Domriso]

So, this is a really random question, and it might have been answered somewhere else in the thread, but does an intelligence created through Exotic Intelligence count as an actual creature? If so, could I, say, Mind Switch with the Intelligence and gain actual control over the Heuristic Circuit?

Not really sure if it would be useful to do that, but I could see it being fun, especially if you could find a way to implant other people into Heuristic Circuits, as a kind of punishment.

[Omnicrat]

So, this is a really random question, and it might have been answered somewhere else in the thread, but does an intelligence created through Exotic Intelligence count as an actual creature? If so, could I, say, Mind Switch with the Intelligence and gain actual control over the Heuristic Circuit?

Not really sure if it would be useful to do that, but I could see it being fun, especially if you could find a way to implant other people into Heuristic Circuits, as a kind of punishment.

It has been established that EIs count as creatures (kind of) and can even gain experience and take class levels. I don't think a circuit prison like that would be good idea, however.

[Nanoblack]

You could create the Gramarist equivalent of Tron. So there's that.

[Amechra]

If anyone is willing to submit alternate pictures, I'm compiling this stuff into a PDF...

[LordotheMorning]

Am I correct in assuming that an Orthogonal engine can hover a short distance above the ground, or does a car using that sort of engine need wheels?

[General Patton]

For larger biollurgical chassis that are made into constructs and have a cockpit installed in them, I think that there should be a specific amount of space inside them for building as well as carrying a crew of more than one creature. If a party decides to go to Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann levels of ridiculousness with a Colossal++++++ sized biomech, they should be able to have the "cockpit" be an entire Colossal++++ sized area to hold other gramary stuff and an entire city inside of it.

[Nanoblack]

If anyone is willing to submit alternate pictures, I'm compiling this stuff into a PDF...

What sort of pictures might you be looking for?

[Amechra]

Images for the disciplines/PrCs, because I don't think I'll get permission to use the images Kellus is using, and I'm always paranoid about that kinda thing...

[Nanoblack]

You might also want to start a thread in the art section to trawl for additional content.

[Omnicrat]

Am I correct in assuming that an Orthogonal engine can hover a short distance above the ground, or does a car using that sort of engine need wheels?

Well, as written, the engine can only travel in a perfectly straight line parallel to the ground. It just slides on the ground if you don't use wheels or something, but the strange thing is that doesn't effect speed. A wheeled ortho vehicle has the same speed as a sledge ortho vehicle assuming bulk and push are constant.

[Omnicrat]

For larger biollurgical chassis that are made into constructs and have a cockpit installed in them, I think that there should be a specific amount of space inside them for building as well as carrying a crew of more than one creature. If a party decides to go to Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann levels of ridiculousness with a Colossal++++++ sized biomech, they should be able to have the "cockpit" be an entire Colossal++++ sized area to hold other gramary stuff and an entire city inside of it.

You can have hollow areas other than the cockpit, can you not?

[radmelon]

Well, as written, the engine can only travel in a perfectly straight line parallel to the ground. It just slides on the ground if you don't use wheels or something, but the strange thing is that doesn't effect speed. A wheeled ortho vehicle has the same speed as a sledge ortho vehicle assuming bulk and push are constant.

You could debate the speed being save regardless of wheels, but it would probably still be a good idea to have wheels anyways to reduce wear and tear.

[QuidEst]

This is fantastic! Only two things bugged me, so I'll get those out of the way.
Lode-Bearer really feels out of place- Yggdratecture feels like it should have a planar prestige class.
Eldrikinetics is really fuel inefficient. A car gets something like 20 mpg. To travel that same twenty miles in a simple orthogonal, you need half a ton (1056 lbs.) of wood. Prime Mover might offer some sort of extension to how long fuel lasts, or perhaps low-level Alchemetry could provide a way to refine fuel so it lasts longer?

Man, Dreamason is awesomely terrifying. It's practically begging you to spend a month to make a mobile 500ft x 500ft x 10ft soul-stealing illusion-creating exotic intelligence whose goals in life are to serve you and become more powerful. Center it on yourself (or a rock you always carry) with exclusion conditions for yourself and anybody you specify…

Looking at Biollurgy, and that seems equally awesome. You can get a decent artificial limb at level 9, and when you hit 14, you can make a fantastic one.

1st/2nd level slots:
•Claw
•Magic Feathers
•Legs Legion to attach it

3rd/4th level slots:
•Telepathic Station
•Hydra Blood/Demon Skin- Graughtsman is worth taking just for Troll Blood to make the arm more resilient.
•Nimbus of Light/Hand of Balor/Eye of Antimagic for a little extra offense.
(None of the abilities are granted to the owner, they're only useable by the arm itself, so no free fast healing.)

The arm can be controlled via heuristic circuitry or instincts, which includes "follow instructions" and could be narrowed down to "follow owner's instructions". Using a metal starting material is well worth it for the extra hardness, since your arm will be receiving a single d8. Even its 18-20 Con score won't do much to save it.

[Eldan]

Week two of the playtest, and there's one thing I've noticed in two sessions: this system creates giant and lengthy OOC discussions. Sure, I have four gramarists in the group, and they are gestalt as well. But. Well.

So far, in six hours of playtime, the players have boarded a ship and landed on a beach in Yucatan. Landing on that beach provoked a 1.5 hour discussion on gramarie-methods of clearcutting jungle.

I'm not really complaining, it's interesting. But slow.