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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Thaxan View Post
    Are there any similar creatures that haven't been looked at that go through such a metamorphosis? It would certainly explain the comments about his father.
    There have been a few. Off the top of my head, the Barghest goes through a transformation once he has eaten enough powerful individuals. And of course FBS Slaad goes through so many that is is a con, rather than a pro, to the suggestion.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Well first off forgive my intrusion with the Dragon and Giant theories. Secondly, whatever the MitD age is there's a short quip by the roaches on the back cover of coloring book "that he's a little old for coloring."
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  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by LordRahl6 View Post
    Well first off forgive my intrusion with the Dragon and Giant theories. Secondly, whatever the MitD age is there's a short quip by the roaches on the back cover of coloring book "that he's a little old for coloring."
    We know he is at least 30 (see section 2a: Age), which fits with that comment perfectly. Last brought up two pages ago, here.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Could that rule out particularly long lived races then? We know that Elves are still in preschool at 26 from here.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Final_Stand View Post
    Could that rule out particularly long lived races then? We know that Elves are still in preschool at 26 from here.
    At least 30, and he still seems childish. If anything, it counts in favour of long-lived races.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Delurking (just made an account, in fact)
    I haven't read the previous threads, but I noticed in Comic 550 that the MitD has a thin, black tentacle (arm? other type of limb?) holding the bucket. It has no visible digits, and presumably MitD is holding the bucket with another limb not shown, to be able to hold and empty the bucket (what I mean is, it's not a tentacle coiled around the bucket... at least it doesn't look like it to me). It might be that it has a two (or more) digits on a really thin but long hand, but only one is visible.
    I checked on the limbs section, and it didn't take any note of this scene, which is the first time I see ANY part of MitD not in the Darkness. Granted, I don't own any of the books, so I'm no use there, but I can't remember anyone saying anything about him actually showing part of his body.

    Hopefully this will help, or it has already been discussed, in which case, sorry I brought it up.

    Edit: Aww, it has. Sorry then.
    Last edited by Scizor; 2012-10-21 at 08:19 AM.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Scizor View Post
    Hopefully this will help, or it has already been discussed, in which case, sorry I brought it up.
    It has, I'm afraid. That's the bucket's handle.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    The astral dragon idea intrigues me. Although I'm not convinced it's a good fit, it might merit a little closer look.

    This is from the forgotten realms wiki article on them:
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Astral_dragon

    "Astral dragon is the name given to a group of dragons that are able to inhabit the Astral Sea. These are chromatic dragons although they only bear a slight relation to the others in their subtype"
    + Could explain familiarity with the Astral Sea
    ~+ slight relation to other chromatic dragons could mean they would not be easily recognizable to a general audience, but knowledge hunters could recognize them

    "They are able to fly on the Prime Material Plane thanks to an organ in the head, although they are not easily able to walk under the influence of gravity"
    ~+ not able to easily walk could explain MitD's clumsiness

    "The astral dragon does not require very much food, but they do enjoy to eat, preferring githyanki where possible."
    + MitD loves to eat. Maybe githyanki taste like moldy cheeseburger?


    + Young dragons spend a lot of time on the Prime Material plane, adults, not so much.
    - They can plane shift at will, but that doesn't really explain the escape well.


    The wiki page doesn't describe the astral dragon's stats or size, so I don't know how well it stacks up from a CR/Strength/Spells standpoint/crate. The description of its egg seems to imply a young astral dragon is in the 10-30' long range, and I would presume that adult dragons would be larger.


    This is from their Monstrous Manual entry:
    http://www.lomion.de/cmm/dragastr.php

    " ...the mated astral dragons undergo a remarkable transformation. ...The mates grow to a length of 50 feet and become enveloped in a permanent aura of golden light. Their intelligence and abilities increase to god-like levels. ... If the chain is broken and the mates are separated by a distance of at least 100 yards for 30 days, they will revert to their original, weaker forms; however, it requires the power of a wish spell or its equivalent to break the chain."
    "Mated astral dragons gain the abilities of a 35th-level cleric."


    In 2e, we have a different view of astral dragons: Mated dragons become large, their stats become "god-like," and they gain absurd cleric levels, but they lose it all if they are kept from their mate. If MitD was an astral dragon separated from his mate, he'd revert back to his childish state and forget (and lose) his powers. This doesn't seem to fit great, but poses some different pros and cons:

    +Plenty of physical strength and magical power to fulfill the escape, the stomp, and any other power requirements.
    +Unmated, they are ~5', but can get up to 50' when mated, so can explain father's size difference.
    - "It has huge black eyes."
    - 2e astral dragons look too much like normal dragons to be mistaken by common folk.
    - Becomes very large when mated. (and not separated from mate)
    - Glows with golden light when mated. (and not separated from mate)
    - No reason to be in the Prime Material Plane (2e astral dragons live in The Abyss)
    - Consume only liquids (stew could count, but why a moldy cheeseburger?)
    - 2e monster (why was it not in Dorukan's castle?)


    Dragon #344 introduces a 3/3.5e astral dragon as well, but it doesn't appear to fit well at all.

    Summary: Astral dragons have more going for them than I thought (particularly the Forgotten Realms variant), but I don't think they are a frontrunner for MitD.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Has the Yochlol been discussed?

    I'll admit that I only even know it exists from the Legend of Drizzt board game, but whatever.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Voyd211 View Post
    Has the Yochlol been discussed?
    There is a comprehensive list of everything that has been discussed in the first post.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Here is a D&D 2e entry for it, I believe. Though it is a lesser Yochlol.


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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    The first page doesn't mention the yochlol. Am I actually the first person to think of this? If I am, huh.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Voyd211 View Post
    The first page doesn't mention the yochlol. Am I actually the first person to think of this? If I am, huh.
    They aren't strong enough, can't teleport, can't do wishes, can't cause earthquakes & aren't particularly famous for their appetite. Why is it surprising that you are the first to mention them? Apart from being ugly, they have nothing going for them, and ugly creatures are ten a penny in D&D.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Clearly he is Ultralisk, son of Torrasque

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoticDwarf View Post
    Clearly he is Ultralisk, son of Torrasque
    The Tarrasque does not mate and there is only one. It seems unlikely it has a son.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    The Tarrasque does not mate and there is only one. It seems unlikely it has a son.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    A thought about MitD's size- in the real world, some creatures in the wild grow to be very large, but when kept in smaller enclosures don't grow as large, right? I imagine this is likely the logic behind the dungeonbred template, but does anyone know if there any D&D creatures for which this is explicitly or very likely the case? MitD has been in a box most of the time for the past 30 or so years; perhaps he's simply only grown to the size of his enclosure.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    A thought about MitD's size- in the real world, some creatures in the wild grow to be very large, but when kept in smaller enclosures don't grow as large, right? I imagine this is likely the logic behind the dungeonbred template, but does anyone know if there any D&D creatures for which this is explicitly or very likely the case? MitD has been in a box most of the time for the past 30 or so years; perhaps he's simply only grown to the size of his enclosure.
    Much like a goldfish. Kept in a smal aquarium, they stay very small......but put them in a big 'ol pond, then they can grow to quite large sizes. Very intriguing idea, and the monster's stats wouldn't necessarily need something to say as such. I'll admit I haven't heard this idea proposed, however GW has been doing this longer than I have, so he would know better.


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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_D&Der View Post
    Much like a goldfish. Kept in a smal aquarium, they stay very small......but put them in a big 'ol pond, then they can grow to quite large sizes. Very intriguing idea, and the monster's stats wouldn't necessarily need something to say as such. I'll admit I haven't heard this idea proposed, however GW has been doing this longer than I have, so he would know better.
    I can see it being used as a reverse justification for the dungeon bred template; i.e. "this template is appropriate because he has been kept in the box". But no, I don't know of any creature that has it naturally without the template except Ice and Fire's dragons (which are most definitely not the OotS dragons).

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I can see it being used as a reverse justification for the dungeon bred template; i.e. "this template is appropriate because he has been kept in the box". But no, I don't know of any creature that has it naturally without the template except Ice and Fire's dragons (which are most definitely not the OotS dragons).

    Grey Wolf
    Ah well. I suppose it makes the dungeonbred template more likely, at least.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Yeah. If he was young (and therefore small) 30 years ago, but now he's adult and Dungeonbred, which would that open up?
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    Ah well. I suppose it makes the dungeonbred template more likely, at least.
    Does the Dungeonbred template predate the author's decision of what the MitD is?
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Boogastreehouse View Post
    Does the Dungeonbred template predate the author's decision of what the MitD is?

    Yes, and he participated in the splatbook that describes it, IIRC.


    (See below). I stand corrected.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Strip 100 (when the decision of what the MiTD was, got made, according to the OoTS books) was in 2004, Dungeonscape was published in 2007.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Hi, I just found out this is the main monster in the darkness thread. I'd like to propose a reexamination of the Vermiurge.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/79218950/162/VERMIURGE

    It's an epic creature with a STR 34 and INT 18, Dr 30/+5 and a whole bunch of features. It's pretty ugly based on the picture.

    The things that most convincing:
    1. It's got a concealing aura that gives it permanent 9/10 concealment.
    2. It has an aura of swarming insects. The demonic cockroaches first appeared in strip 82 because of him and travel with him as seen in 120 and 147.
    3. It has a Frightful presence that can cause affected creatures to be shaken.
    4. The creature has the additional special qualities of "spell-like abilities" which explain the teleport and earthquake abilities. These abilities aren't defined anywhere in the entry (or that I can find) and are separate from the other auras/powers listed.
    5. It can be found in any climate/terrain
    6. The explorers are surprised to see it speaks common: Vermiurges can speak but are listed as only speaking Terran.
    7. They can appear in any climate but they're usually content to wander wastelands, deserts, and grassland steps, so it would be unusual to find one in a rainforest.


    The monster itself is probably just a large one (42-52 HD) which fits its size in the comic. It mentions at one point to O-Chul that its father was big. The 53-70 HD ones are Huge size.


    The strongest argument against: they're immune to mind-affecting effects, while Xykon charmed it.
    That said:
    1. Xykon might have some epic charm spell that can bypass this immunity (since a normal charm spell wouldn't last more than 1 day/level)
    2. Who's to say the charm actually worked?

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Note, it also has a effective caster level of 42 so any spell-like abilities could bypass the Cloister spell

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by kimagure View Post
    Hi, I just found out this is the main monster in the darkness thread. I'd like to propose a reexamination of the Vermiurge.
    Hello and welcome to the thread! Glad you found us

    Quote Originally Posted by kimagure View Post
    Link didn't work for me for some reason (my internet's been funky lately, though, so it's probably an error on my end). Because you mention a DR 30/+5 below, I suspect that's a 3.0 source. The updated source is here.

    Quote Originally Posted by kimagure View Post
    1. It's got a concealing aura that gives it permanent 9/10 concealment.
    This concealment comes from the constant swarm of insects crawling and buzzing over it, not any sort of darkness.

    Quote Originally Posted by kimagure View Post
    2. It has an aura of swarming insects. The demonic cockroaches first appeared in strip 82 because of him and travel with him as seen in 120 and 147.
    The demon roaches appeared chronologically long before the MitD -- they were in Start of Darkness.

    Quote Originally Posted by kimagure View Post
    3. It has a Frightful presence that can cause affected creatures to be shaken.
    All that shaken gives is a -2 penalty to d20 rolls, which doesn't really mesh with the reactions at the circus.

    Quote Originally Posted by kimagure View Post
    4. The creature has the additional special qualities of "spell-like abilities" which explain the teleport and earthquake abilities. These abilities aren't defined anywhere in the entry (or that I can find) and are separate from the other auras/powers listed.
    SLAs are never not identified -- I can't find anything on what they should be anywhere Maybe that refers to its aura of doom, which is said to be a constant spell effect? Or else they forgot to put them in and never corrected it in the errata...

    Quote Originally Posted by kimagure View Post
    5. It can be found in any climate/terrain
    That's a point against it, as the hunters were surprised to see it in the jungle.

    Quote Originally Posted by kimagure
    Note, it also has a effective caster level of 42 so any spell-like abilities could bypass the Cloister spell
    That's referring specifically to its aura of doom. That doesn't necessarily mean any additional SLAs which it may or may not have are CL 42.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Thanks for all the great comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Savannah View Post
    Hello and welcome to the thread! Glad you found us

    This concealment comes from the constant swarm of insects crawling and buzzing over it, not any sort of darkness.
    Very true, but it's impossible to know what is going on in the darkness. Which, I suppose, at best makes the argument a nullity. Thinking at it from the perspective of a writer, though, if you see a creature entry that has a high concealment rate and that's incredibly powerful, I could easily see it inspiring the idea of a monster that you don't see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Savannah View Post
    The demon roaches appeared chronologically long before the MitD -- they were in Start of Darkness.
    The important consideration is what Rich intended when he established the identity of the monster. The fact that they were retroactively created earlier doesn't change the fact that they first appeared around the monster.

    They also appear around the monster more often than the baddies in general. I'm thinking of the scene where Haley and Belkar run into it after Azure City falls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Savannah View Post
    All that shaken gives is a -2 penalty to d20 rolls, which doesn't really mesh with the reactions at the circus.
    If you're talking about the reactions, well... it is a pretty ugly creature. Just saying. I was thinking more about Haley and Belkar's reaction to it when it yells "STOP".

    Quote Originally Posted by Savannah View Post
    SLAs are never not identified -- I can't find anything on what they should be anywhere Maybe that refers to its aura of doom, which is said to be a constant spell effect? Or else they forgot to put them in and never corrected it in the errata...
    Yes. So it has spell-like abilities that are undefined. Which are separate from the abilities listed for the creature. I.e., for an author, they could be anything. They could be the earthquake effect, the teleport... It creates a lot of opportunities, particularly since at least one of a Vermiurge's abilities is at a caster level of 42.

    Quote Originally Posted by Savannah View Post
    That's a point against it, as the hunters were surprised to see it in the jungle.
    Ah, but the description in the epic level handbook says that they're usually content to wander wastelands, deserts, and grassland steps. So it's possible to find them in rainforests, but rare.

    Thanks for responding!

  29. - Top - End - #239
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by kimagure View Post

    The important consideration is what Rich intended when he established the identity of the monster. The fact that they were retroactively created earlier doesn't change the fact that they first appeared around the monster.

    They also appear around the monster more often than the baddies in general. I'm thinking of the scene where Haley and Belkar run into it after Azure City falls.
    From SoD it is established the other way round (if the Demon Roaches are linked to MitD, why they are not in the rainforest/circus with MitD and why are there in the diner/Team Evil @ Lirian's Gate without MitD? Redcloak even explains why they are in the diner in the first place).

    As for why they are more often in scenes with MitD: The Demon Roaches tend to dissapear when the business is getting more serious. Scenes with MitD are often less serious.

    Quote Originally Posted by kimagure View Post
    If you're talking about the reactions, well... it is a pretty ugly creature. Just saying. I was thinking more about Haley and Belkar's reaction to it when it yells "STOP".
    But it can't be really only be ugly, because that doesn't fit that well to the circus-crowd reactions ins SoD (if you don't have SoD, in the first post in this thread, the main scenes with MitD from SoD are transcribed there), but it could be some soft version of the Aura of Doom maybe [if the Vermiurge can regulate the effect - but from the text it seems to be only an on/off switch]


    @SLA: From reading the text I do not get the impression that Vermiurge have random undefined abilities. I think the SLA is the Aura of Doom.

    And being "immune to all mind-affecting effects" is a pretty big drawback.
    Last edited by ChristianSt; 2013-05-17 at 08:25 AM. Reason: Edited to add singature

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    Based off of context, it appears to be an ability of the 4e lich that damages creatures in the vicinity, but doesn't affect all creature types.

    It's all but certainly not a clue.
    Actually, it might be a clue. Wouldn't it mean that MitD must be something that exists both in 3.5 and 4.0 editions?
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