Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

[zimmerwald1915]

We do it how we've always done it. List him as "Evil", and link that claim to #875.

If someone wants to come in and present a serious argument that it's not evidence, and/or that there's evidence somewhere else of him being non-evil, then we can talk about it then.

But right now, as far as I can tell, there's NO ONE who looks at that and says anything other than "yep, he's Evil". The weight of proof is really that convincing, so we should use it.

Check the main thread for #875. Then weep.

[Shadic]

If you can ballpark stats because of race, why can't you do the same for alignment?

[Lvl45DM!]

You know i was about to make the facetious comment "Genocide means you're evil". Then i realized we have one character for whom thats explicitly not tru and one character who people argue against it being true.
So...yeah perhaps leave off on the AL?

[ti'esar]

Check the main thread for #875. Then weep.

I've been trying to stay out of the main thread for just this reason. If there's anyone still arguing that Malack is neutral, I don't want to know about it.

Which, again, supports my point: I don't see how there can be anyone reasonable who is honestly trying to argue that Malack is non-evil, but if we list his alignment without explicit by-the-rules confirmation, then I really worry that it's opening the door for some kook who thinks the same thing about some future character with an ambiguous alignment.

[Dark Matter]

Check the main thread for #875. Then weep.

I said "seriously". :) I think most or all of that isn't serious, and here's a thought experiment.

Someone new comes in here and wants our best logical estimation on what M is like. We really should put in a "LE" and a link to that strip. We can say "probably LE" or something if we really -have- to put in weasly words, but that strip is a character defining moment.

[zimmerwald1915]

I said "seriously". :) I think most or all of that isn't serious

And yet your join date is well, well before mine. Clearly it's not this community that's made me cynical.

Someone new comes in here and wants our best logical estimation on what M is like. We really should put in a "LE" and a link to that strip. We can say "probably LE" or something if we really -have- to put in weasly words, but that strip is a character defining moment.

This begs the question "what is this thread for?" Is it meant to be a reference for people looking to discuss characters' abilities? Is it meant to be a catalogue of everything we can be sure we know about a character? It it just a fun exercise?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If you can ballpark stats because of race, why can't you do the same for alignment?

Because Rich doesn't have a problem with the former, but has a problem with the latter.

Yours,

Grey Wolf

[Dark Matter]

If you can ballpark stats because of race, why can't you do the same for alignment?

The other problem (although I agree with GW) is most of the "race X has alignment Y" arguments ignore "mostly" or "usually" isn't "always".

On the other hand I can't think of any examples of an "always evil" creature which hasn't been pretty evil. On the other other hand I suspect we'll see an exception to that before the Comic is over.

[Kish]

On the other hand I can't think of any examples of an "always evil" creature which hasn't been pretty evil.

Enor. (text)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

On the other hand I can't think of any examples of an "always evil" creature which hasn't been pretty evil. On the other other hand I suspect we'll see an exception to that before the Comic is over.

There aren't that many "always evil" creatures that aren't devils/demons/etc, and Rich is on record having stated that those are indeed always evil, because they are not so much independent beings as much as embodiment of their respective planes. That leaves the undead, which (since they are animated with evil energy) are fighting a stacked deck to be not-evil. I was hoping that Malack would be shown to be Neutral, actually (it could have been done, with an appropriate back story), but of course the latest comic has put that to rest.

There is also RC's words on the undead, although RC has been known to be in severe denial, so I don't take his words on the topic too authoritatively.

Edit: I had no idea that Enor, whatever he was, was "always evil"

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

The half-dragon template includes "Alignment: Always that of the dragon parent."

For a half-blue-dragon, that means Lawful Evil.

[Dark Matter]

Hmm... so we already have an exception. Well Done.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogre.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/d...htm#blueDragon

Which brings us back to using 875 as a link for M's "LE".

I think we should and then use better proof, if and when it shows up. If we need word of the Giant, then I think we already have close to that both in the title of the comic itself, and in his talk about Darth V's act of mass murder being evil.

[Lvl45DM!]

Isn't Enor evil in the same way Thog is? IE pretty evil?

[SaintRidley]

Isn't Enor evil in the same way Thog is? IE pretty evil?

Enor's True Neutral. I don't have the link handy at the moment. I'll find it in a bit.

[Lvl45DM!]

Ah. I have checked the Index of the Giants Comments and returned enlightened. Disregard

[SaintRidley]

If he has power attack, a flat-footed target with significant DR wearing no evident armor and with no good reason to have a meaningful dex bonus would be pretty much the idea time to use it.

He also appears to be charging, which would be further reason to power attack.

[Bird]

Since Enor just came up,

Q: Which characters are included in this thread?
(1) All members of the Order, Team Evil, and the Linear Guild.
(2) Any frequently occuring character, as noted in the Character Appearances thread. Note that this includes Samantha: it was easier to be a common character back when the comic was shorter. We don't unlist characters just because they've died.
(3) Family members of the main characters, as long as we have something to write about them.

Would it be worth expanding this to include some of the minor characters? That category has a relatively limited number of characters, most of whom are interesting, including Enor, Gannji, Thanh and Jirix.

Sorry if this has come up before. And thanks to all the people who made this thread; it's great.

[ti'esar]

As far as minor characters go, one way or another I do think that there's only so far that Grandfather Clause can get Samantha.

[SowZ]

You know i was about to make the facetious comment "Genocide means you're evil". Then i realized we have one character for whom thats explicitly not tru and one character who people argue against it being true.
So...yeah perhaps leave off on the AL?

Had Malack committed genocide in the heat of the moment without fully comprehending his actions and then regretted it and tried to make amends, it would be a different story. I think V was Evil, at least for a time, then settled down again.

The difference is Malack is actively plotting to murder hundreds of thousands of people a day for the sake of an Evil god, meanwhile enjoying the amenities of being a top official in an oppressive empire that is about as unreasonable about executions as most of the world's worst regimes. (With no indication that Malack does this for the people's benefit, either, since he only sees the people as tools and slaves to further his own goals.)

By my personal morals, I'd count V as NE. But in the Giant's world, I imagine alignment is based more on intent and current mind-set. Note: That does not mean that V won't be banished to one of the evil afterlives! The comic seems to imply that your actions are weighed, assuming the judgement thing isn't unique to the LG plane.

[Math_Mage]

Check the main thread for #875. Then weep.

One person half-suggested it and has since reverted his position. A few other people joked about it.

Lots of people post in this thread contradicting information we know to be true, and retract their statements in the face of the obvious evidence. I don't think Malack's alignment will any different given 875 as evidence.

[Chronos]

Did SensI ever argue that a Pearl of Power should be added to Durkon's item list? I don't think he did. I read him as just saying that he might have such an item, and that thus we can't assume that he doesn't, when looking at what spells he's cast.

For Malak's alignment, I think a good general policy would be that, whenever we have a character of an "Always <alignment>" race, that we list that character as that alignment. Yes, exceptions can occur, but they're extremely rare, and if we ever get evidence otherwise, well, we've gone back and changed things in this thread before. Note that I do not advocate the same policy for "Usually <alignment>".

And on the subject of undead and aging penalties, when Xykon was lichified, one of the first things he said was "Suck it, arthritis". "Arthritis" is just another name for "old-age dexterity penalty", and I think Xykon made it pretty clear that he no longer had it.

[LuPuWei]

If there's a vote I'll cast my lot for Malack being Evil now.

I argued (and still argue) against labelling Malack as Evil based on the "always Evil" listing for D&D vampires because the OotSverse demonstrably disregards suggested alignments based on creature type. However I acknowledge that in the OotSverse certain types of actions earn the label Evil whether explicitly stated or not (think Thog) (and this, by the way, is what I meant by meta-morality also defining alignment in tandem with accepted mechanics)

Evil acts even with the best of intentions have proven to be considered evil in-universe (as in the case of Miko) and so, regardless of what Malack thinks he will achieve or is bound to do by bonds of loyalty, he is following an evil path to an evil end and is therefore evil.

[ti'esar]

Given that I can't imagine it's meant to be even remotely ambiguous now, I kind of want to just go ahead and ask Rich if he can make an official comment saying that Malack is Evil for the good of this thread.

[Winter]

Given that I can't imagine it's meant to be even remotely ambiguous now, I kind of want to just go ahead and ask Rich if he can make an official comment saying that Malack is Evil for the good of this thread.

Come on, Malack must be Doubleplus-Lawful-Good. Killing 1000 people per day as Vampire Overlord in an oppressive dictatorship must be net-good in the end. It ends all the wars and free thought that only causes issues and stuff!
I mean, it's how "good" works, no?

[mawexzon]

Hey, I've got a question: Is Redcloak considered a Main Character? If so, then, should we add Right-Eye for being his brother?

[fictionfan]

I don't think so because he does not appear in the main comic.

[Kish]

And the only non-controversial thing we could really say about him, would be, "Goblin rogue."

There is no agreement on his alignment or any of his stats.

[Winter]

We can also argue his level "must be around that of Redcloak at that time", but we cannot be sure. And listing his level-range in addition to what Kish said is not really adding a lot.
Oh, he might also have levels in Expert (Carpentry).

I think this is where it ends?

[Lvl45DM!]

Had Malack committed genocide in the heat of the moment without fully comprehending his actions and then regretted it and tried to make amends, it would be a different story. I think V was Evil, at least for a time, then settled down again.

The difference is Malack is actively plotting to murder hundreds of thousands of people a day for the sake of an Evil god, meanwhile enjoying the amenities of being a top official in an oppressive empire that is about as unreasonable about executions as most of the world's worst regimes. (With no indication that Malack does this for the people's benefit, either, since he only sees the people as tools and slaves to further his own goals.)

By my personal morals, I'd count V as NE. But in the Giant's world, I imagine alignment is based more on intent and current mind-set. Note: That does not mean that V won't be banished to one of the evil afterlives! The comic seems to imply that your actions are weighed, assuming the judgement thing isn't unique to the LG plane.

You know i think you raise an interesting point. One's alignment in life doesn't necessarily match one's afterlife, since Roy would still have been LG despite getting tossed into TN. But still, for the purposes of Geekery, I just think its inviting problems to judge game mechanics on non game mechanical evidence? I dunno

[Fitzclowningham]

I don't know why we even bother with alignment. Stats, equipment, spells, skills, etc., tell us capabilities and limitations. Alignment tells us something a lot...mushier. Not to mention that the energy we spend on it here could be used to power a large orphanage indefinitely. Just sayin'.