Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

[Procyonpi]

It's because of the joke where Belkar says "first, that happened in Dragon, so I'm not even sure it's canon."

Since the cooking skill referred to has been reinforced in canon as true, I suspect we're OK as far as character abilities.

No, It's because Rich has explicitly stated that SSaDT is it's own "dragon canon" which now also includes the Gyagax Magazine strips.

I'm willing to accept that have a SOMEWHAT similar build, but I'm not willing to accept that they're the same level or have the exact same abilities until it's confirmed in the main comic. For example, are we going to say that Elan wears a chain shirt because he's still wearing one in SSaDT? What about ruling out abilities based on those strips. I think the implication of counting stuff gained from the Dragon canon on this thread without confirmation in the main comic is more problematic that a lot of people here would like to admit.

[Kish]

No, It's because Rich has explicitly stated that SSaDT is it's own "dragon canon" which now also includes the Gyagax Magazine strips.

Link?

I'm willing to accept that they're the same level or have the exact same abilities until it's confirmed in the main comic.

Is there a missing "not" there?

[Procyonpi]

Link?

Here you go:

Huh, I didn't know they had announced this.

Yes, OOTS will be in the new magazine. The first strip was completed over the summer, but the subsequent strips haven't been done yet (so there might not be one in issue #2, depending on the deadline).

The comics will pick up the "Dragon Continuity" for OOTS, which started with Dragon Magazine then continued through the "Invaders From the Fourth Edition" story in Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales. So, expect loosely-linked stand-alone strips with an emphasis on jokes over plot.

I'll probably make a more official announcement next week.

Is there a missing "not" there?

Not quite, I've edited my original post to better effect what I meant.

[Kish]

I...don't see how that says they have different stats in the magazine strips (except, of course, insofar as Rich doesn't really care about continuity, and any two strips may contradict each other at any time). Certainly we should take the Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales strips as indicating that Elan wore a chain shirt in the Dungeon of Dorukan, if we didn't already know that.

[SavageWombat]

I don't think the continuity makes any sense unless you assume that the Dragon events happened before the party left Redmountain hills. Even putting it in the dungeon makes little sense.

I think that using the magazine as the basis for general build notes, like feats or equipment, is fine - but if you tried to estimate level that way, you'd be doomed.

[Procyonpi]

I...don't see how that says they have different stats in the magazine strips (except, of course, insofar as Rich doesn't really care about continuity, and any two strips may contradict each other at any time). Certainly we should take the Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales strips as indicating that Elan wore a chain shirt in the Dungeon of Dorukan, if we didn't already know that.

But that's the thing, the Dungeon is SSaDT wasn't the Dungeon of Dorukan, it was "Unnamed dungeon containing The Dragon." And we don't know where the fight in invaders from the fourth edition was. Considering that Rich has explicitly stated it's a different canon, I see no reason why we should try to shoehorn it into a timeframe in the main canon.

[Douglas]

I think strips from the Dragon continuity should be provisionally accepted for:
A) build elements (ability scores, skills, feats, spells, and such)
B) the properties of items that are shown but not explained in the main continuity
C) minimum level

It should not be used for:
A) maximum level
B) items not shown in the main continuity

Basically, they're the same characters with the same builds, and items they've had for a long time are practically part of the build and are likely identical in both, but miscellaneous equipment can change at random without notice and level could vary, though I'd expect explicit notice if level strays outside the range the main continuity has had.

[Procyonpi]

I think there's some room for a compromise here. How about we use douglas's idea, with two exceptions:
1. I don't think we should use the dragon continuity as a maximum for anything that can go up (this means levels, skills, or ability scores), since the Order is clearly at an earlier point in their progression than in the current main strip.
2. We mark things that have only appeared in the Dragon continuity in a different color (say, green) until such a time as they are either confirmed in the main comic (in which case they become black) or contradicted (in which case they are removed).

Thoughts?

[Kurald Galain]

It may be a different continuity, but they're still the same characters, and we have direct in-comic evidence that skills from the Snips continuity do apply in the main plotline. No, it doesn't fit anywhere in the timeline, but this thread doesn't deal with the timeline - there's another thread for that.

There isn't all that much geekery material in the Dragon comics, but for the sake of completeness I do think we should include it in some form. I agree that this cannot be used for calculations of level, of course. Note that everything from Snips is already clearly marked as such.

[Procyonpi]

It may be a different continuity, but they're still the same characters, and we have direct in-comic evidence that skills from the Snips continuity do apply in the main plotline. No, it doesn't fit anywhere in the timeline, but this thread doesn't deal with the timeline - there's another thread for that.

But they're not, completely. Elan wears a chain shirt and is probably only a bard, as as best as we can tell, the Julio Scoundrel arch never happened in this continuity. I'd find putting Belkar's max strength at 17 instead of 18 based on the dragon continuity highly dubious. We only have evidence that ONE PARTICULAR skill from SSaDT applies to the main continuity, in a situation where the plot and rule of funny demanded it.

[Bird]

If Belkar gets his KS pseudonym listed, shouldn't Haley (minor OtOoPC spoiler)

Spoiler

Show

have "Mistress Nightingale" and "The Red Blur" listed from her wanted poster on page 58?

[137beth]

I think there's some room for a compromise here. How about we use douglas's idea, with two exceptions:
1. I don't think we should use the dragon continuity as a maximum for anything that can go up (this means levels, skills, or ability scores), since the Order is clearly at an earlier point in their progression than in the current main strip.
2. We mark things that have only appeared in the Dragon continuity in a different color (say, green) until such a time as they are either confirmed in the main comic (in which case they become black) or contradicted (in which case they are removed).

Thoughts?

This is my vote. We may also want to note that something removed which was previously listed in green should be retained in spoilers in another color, to prevent people from saying "but wait, what about [page from SSaDT]" without realizing that it has already been overridden in the main comic. Then again, we don't do that for overridden abilities from old comics, so maybe my extra rule isn't needed. Regardless, I agree with ya

[Flame of Anor]

I agree with douglas and Procyonpi.

[Ajadea]

On the main page, it notes that Belkar must have Two-Weapon Pounce. So he needs 15+ Dex as that is a requirement for the feat.

[zimmerwald1915]

On the main page, it notes that Belkar must have Two-Weapon Pounce. So he needs 15+ Dex as that is a requirement for the feat.

A Ranger with the two-weapon fighting style can select Two-Weapon Pounce as a feat without having to meet the normal prerequisites. He only has to have a BAB of +6.

[mawexzon]

On the Snip, Snails topic, Doesn't 4e Roy mention warblade? Is that enough for Tome of Battle to be listed as sourcebook or has it to appear on the official comic continuity?

[Peelee]

Would Roy need Knowledge (Geography) (or whichever other type would be most appropriate. Such as if Knowledge [Navigation] or Knowledge [Sailing] is a thing) to know how to use the sextant? Or would this be covered under common knowledge in a-based D&D world?

[mawexzon]

Considering Belkar had no idea what a sextant was, It can't be common knowledge.

[137beth]

Considering Belkar had no idea what a sextant was, It can't be common knowledge.

Unless he knew, but intentionally pretended not to know specifically to annoy Roy while pretending to be helpful.

[mawexzon]

Unless he knew, but intentionally pretended not to know specifically to annoy Roy while pretending to be helpful.

He's Belkar, Unless sextants became cooking implement he knows nothing of them.

[FlawedParadigm]

Considering Belkar had no idea what a sextant was, It can't be common knowledge.

I don't know that Belkar can be used for any degree of what's considered common knowledge. Certainly no one else expressed confusion about a sextant, and for Belkar "some people may deserve to live even if they annoy me, are slightly in my path, or serve no immediate purpose" isn't common knowledge.

Heck, *tracking* isn't common knowledge for him, and he's a Ranger, for crying out loud.

[Dark Matter]

I think there's some room for a compromise here. How about we use douglas's idea, with two exceptions:
1. I don't think we should use the dragon continuity as a maximum for anything that can go up (this means levels, skills, or ability scores), since the Order is clearly at an earlier point in their progression than in the current main strip.
2. We mark things that have only appeared in the Dragon continuity in a different color (say, green) until such a time as they are either confirmed in the main comic (in which case they become black) or contradicted (in which case they are removed).

Agreed.

For Belkar's strength, what we have evidence for is he didn't have an 18 strength back in the day.

Do we have any clue how far "back in the day" is? I'm under the impression it's pretty far back.

Heck, *tracking* isn't common knowledge for him, and he's a Ranger, for crying out loud.

No, he knows -of- tracking, he's knows it exists and he's supposed to be good at it, but he doesn't really care that he isn't.

[Sniffnoy]

Haley doesn't seem to have anything listed about Wisdom in the first post. I'm guessing that's an oversight?

[zimmerwald1915]

Would Roy need Knowledge (Geography) (or whichever other type would be most appropriate. Such as if Knowledge [Navigation] or Knowledge [Sailing] is a thing) to know how to use the sextant? Or would this be covered under common knowledge in a-based D&D world?

No. The sextant was probably a masterwork tool that applied a +2 bonus to whatever checks Roy made to find Shojo's coordinates for Girard's Gate. I think he made, with the aid of the sextant, a series of DC 15 Survival checks to navigate to the coordinates, but since Survival can be used untrained, that doesn't really say anything about Roy's stats.

[Dark Matter]

No. The sextant was probably a masterwork tool that applied a +2 bonus to whatever checks Roy made to find Shojo's coordinates for Girard's Gate. I think he made, with the aid of the sextant, a series of DC 15 Survival checks to navigate to the coordinates, but since Survival can be used untrained, that doesn't really say anything about Roy's stats.

Belkar (no survival) doesn't know what a sextant is.
Roy knew enough to go looking for one, and one assumes he knew enough to use it.

[Kish]

I don't quite understand why this is not a common-sense thing. Do you know how to use a sextant? Because I don't. Do you not know how to use a sextant but you're confident you could immediately figure it out upon picking it up? That's definitely not the case for me.

(And yes, I saw that the question about whether Roy being able to use it can be assumed in a D&D setting, but, it's clearly trained, and not universally like "how to thwack someone with a quarterstaff" either. Would you really expect every character in every fantasy novel you've ever read to know how to use a sextant? Including the ones who've never seen the sea and the ones [barbarians] who didn't learn how to read?)

(All the "you"s in this post are addressed to Occupant.)

[137beth]

I don't quite understand why this is not a common-sense thing. Do you know how to use a sextant? Because I don't. Do you not know how to use a sextant but you're confident you could immediately figure it out upon picking it up? That's definitely not the case for me.

(And yes, I saw that the question about whether Roy being able to use it can be assumed in a D&D setting, but, it's clearly trained, and not universally like "how to thwack someone with a quarterstaff" either. Would you really expect every character in every fantasy novel you've ever read to know how to use a sextant? Including the ones who've never seen the sea and the ones [barbarians] who didn't learn how to read?)

(All the "you"s in this post are addressed to Occupant.)

Emphasis added, I think this is a typo.

[Kish]

Not a typo. Let me rephrase that part.

I do not understand why the question, "Would Roy knowing how to use a sextant indicate points in some manner of knowledge skill?" would get any debate rather than just, "Yes, absolutely, unambiguously, obviously yes." If it doesn't--then good.

[Dark Matter]

Moving back to Belkar's strength... we've got a problem.
In Snips, he doesn't have an 18 (max 17). We're not going to use that because it may have gone up.

But our proof for him not having an 19 (max 18) is here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html

That was a *long* time ago.

[137beth]

Not a typo. Let me rephrase that part.

I do not understand why the question, "Would Roy knowing how to use a sextant indicate points in some manner of knowledge skill?" would get any debate rather than just, "Yes, absolutely, unambiguously, obviously yes." If it doesn't--then good.

I see. In that case, I agree with you. I think he could easily have heard what it was from Hinjo, but knowing how to use it would probably require at least 1 skill rank of training. At least, if the DM were making logical rulings.

Moving back to Belkar's strength... we've got a problem.
In Snips, he doesn't have an 18 (max 17). We're not going to use that because it may have gone up.

But our proof for him not having an 19 (max 18) is here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html

That was a *long* time ago.

That's sort of an issue which applies anytime we set a maximum based on a strip which took place at least 1 in-comic day ago. Unless we are certain their level has not gone up since we gained evidence about some maximum, we can't really set any upper bounds.