Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

[137beth]

It doesn't. But IF Hinjo is pure Paladin and IF O-Chul has more Fighter levels than Paladin levels, it would require O-Chul to be double plus two levels higher than Hinjo. Which is impossible, since O-Chul isn't the highest level member of the Sapphire Guard.

Even with both of those ifs, he could still have more paladin levels than Hinjo, but fewer than Miko. Unless we get a better upper bound on Miko's Paladin levels, you have no case.

[SowZ]

Even with both of those ifs, he could still have more paladin levels than Hinjo, but fewer than Miko. Unless we get a better upper bound on Miko's Paladin levels, you have no case.

If Hinjo is a 10th level Paladin, that would require O-Chul be 22 level if we allow those two ifs. I think it is safe to assume O-Chul is not an Epic level character.

Also, Hinjo is called the second most powerful Paladin in the Sapphire Guard.

[Celisasu]

A thought: V has Evard's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion which is most likely a Conjuration spell(and thus barred school). If V has the Spell Reprieve feat then it means that s/he can learn and cast one spell from a prohibited school. The only requirements for that feat are to be a specialist caster and to have Knowledge: History at 2 ranks or higher. Two ranks in a class skill for someone with his Int score should be pretty damn easy and the feat would explain the spell within the rules in a simple way not requiring any house rules.

Edit: This would mean that one more book would be added to the list of books used though. It is an official WotC product though as opposed to 3rd Party. Lost Empires of Faerun.

[rodneyAnonymous]

"Most likely"? We have no idea what school that spell is, except that a case could be made that it does not belong to one of V's established barred schools.

This thread is not about speculation.

Two ranks in a class skill for someone with his Int score should be pretty damn easy and the feat would explain the spell within the rules in a simple way not requiring any house rules.

Here is a simpler way to explain it that doesn't require any house rules: it's not a Conjuration spell.

[Celisasu]

Except the assumption that a spell that is part of a line of conjuration spells(there's also a Daltim's Fiery Tentacles, another refinement of the Black Tentacles which is conjuration and it would be a lot easier to argue that's an evocation spell than Spiked Tentacles is not a Conjuration spell) is not a conjuration spell is also speculation. What does Evard's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion do? It conjures up some spiked tentacles that do exactly what the spell name says. So what school is this? It's playing like a Black Tentacle spell on steroids.

[rodneyAnonymous]

That is still just a guess. Many spell variations are researched specifically to change their school. This thread is about evidence, not assumptions.

It's not speculation because V explicitly says he chose Conjuration as a barred school (that Necromancy is barred was determined by elimination), so any spells he casts can't be in the Conjuration school.

Unless a convoluted argument is made for being able to cast a single barred-school spell using a feat from an obscure splatbook, for which there is absolutely no evidence in almost 900 strips. Opinions about what is "most likely" are not admissible here.

[137beth]

If Hinjo is a 10th level Paladin, that would require O-Chul be 22 level if we allow those two ifs. I think it is safe to assume O-Chul is not an Epic level character.

Also, Hinjo is called the second most powerful Paladin in the Sapphire Guard.

Ah, right, forgot about Miko's claim about Hinjo as #2.

But...why does O-Chul need to be level 22? We just know that he is higher than Hinjo, not 10+ levels higher. Is there something really big that I was just missing?

[SowZ]

Ah, right, forgot about Miko's claim about Hinjo as #2.

But...why does O-Chul need to be level 22? We just know that he is higher than Hinjo, not 10+ levels higher. Is there something really big that I was just missing?

If O-Chul has more Fighter levels that Paladin levels, but also has more Paladin levels than Hinjo, he needs 12 Paladin levels, minimum. If he has more Fighter levels, that's 13. So my numbers were off there, that would be level 25. I think it is safe to assume one of these assumptions is wrong.

The easiest assumption to disregard, IMO, is that only Paladin levels count towards being the strongest in the Sapphire Guard. Though it is a complete toss up if O-Chul has more Fighter or Paladin levels.

[137beth]

If O-Chul has more Fighter levels that Paladin levels, but also has more Paladin levels than Hinjo, he needs 12 Paladin levels, minimum. If he has more Fighter levels, that's 13. So my numbers were off there, that would be level 25. I think it is safe to assume one of these assumptions is wrong.

The easiest assumption to disregard, IMO, is that only Paladin levels count towards being the strongest in the Sapphire Guard. Though it is a complete toss up if O-Chul has more Fighter or Paladin levels.

I see. I think it is more likely that he is primarily a Paladin, given that he is usually referred to as such (unlike, say, Belkar or Elan's multi-classing). But we really don't have any evidence either way, so whatever

[glissle]

Except the assumption that a spell that is part of a line of conjuration spells(there's also a Daltim's Fiery Tentacles, another refinement of the Black Tentacles which is conjuration and it would be a lot easier to argue that's an evocation spell than Spiked Tentacles is not a Conjuration spell) is not a conjuration spell is also speculation. What does Evard's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion do? It conjures up some spiked tentacles that do exactly what the spell name says. So what school is this? It's playing like a Black Tentacle spell on steroids.

In a previous thread, it was noted that since Bigby's X Hand spells are evocation, it should be possible to research an evocation spell that applies tentacle-shaped force.

Someone else suggested that the spell could have extruded the tentacles from the floor (transmutation).

[dps]

Note that this is not a safe assumption. For one thing, perhaps he has been a paladin longer than that, and for another, D&D characters might go their whole life without gaining a single level, time spent as a class gives no information at all about level.

And even if it were, we don't really have any idea how old O-Chul is. We list him as 29+, but that means thatt 29's a minimum. I'd guess him to be around 50, which would mean that if he was a fighter for 12 years, he's been a Paladin for about 22 years. And even that assumes that he doesn't have any levels in any other classes besides fighter and Paladin (a reasonable assumption, but unless I've missed something, still just an assumption).

[Kurald Galain]

Bear in mind that the leader of the Sapphire Guard was a 12th-level aristocrat with zero paladin levels. It is quite possible that rank within the SG is unrelated to class levels entirely.

[137beth]

Bear in mind that the leader of the Sapphire Guard was a 12th-level aristocrat with zero paladin levels. It is quite possible that rank within the SG is unrelated to class levels entirely.

14th level, not 12th.

[mawexzon]

O-Chul should be listed with Search 0 ranks, according to #290 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html) panel four.

[ChristianSt]

O-Chul should be listed with Search 0 ranks, according to #290 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html) panel four.

That is not O-Chul, that is only a random paladin (he doesn't have scars) (See Number of Character Appearances V and the FAQ there in:

Q. Why isn't O-Chul's first appearance listed in strip 290 (fourth frame)?

A. That is not O-Chul. That is "fellow medium-sized paladin".

(I think I remember reading a comment in one book, too)

[mawexzon]

I'm pretty sure he didn't got the scars until the war.
EDIT: Checked for info, you are right, he isn't O-Chul.

[Needle]

I was checking which spells Z used on the lasts strips, to think about which slots are still avaiable and stuff, and noticed Teleport is not listed on Z's spell list

I guess this was lost

[RMS Oceanic]

I guess this was lost

Indeed. Added.

[Kurald Galain]

Why doesn't Belkar have Scent? I have seen several uses of this ability through the comics, like here and here. The latter link is a practical application of Scent when used to track something.

That's a good point, Belkar is consistently talking about how everything smells and finding things by scent and so forth.

Also: the strip is pre-100 (strip 20, no less).

This means Rich hadn't set the story in place yet,

According to DCF commentary, he set the story in place around strip 13, not 100.

EDIT: Checked for info, you are right, he isn't O-Chul.

It is in fact Lu-Cho, his lawful good twin

I guess this was lost

It would be nice if Kilkil got the same stats as the other kobolds, i.e.
Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Also, all kobold characters should list under their skills Speak Language: Draconic (racial).

And this, too.

Her third Smite Evil was her "final", which means she had 10-14 Paladin levels.

Please link to the comic you're talking about.

[zimmerwald1915]

According to DCF commentary, he set the story in place around strip 13, not 100.

The strip 100 number gets bandied about, if I'm remembering correctly, because at some point Rich said he had MitD's species in mind by about that time.

[Mike Havran]

Please link to the comic you're talking about.

It was mentioned in the Giant's commentary about their fight, here, in Round two section.

[Kish]

That doesn't say she uses the last Smite Evil use she has available that day. Just that it's the final one she uses in that fight.

[Snails]

The strip 100 number gets bandied about, if I'm remembering correctly, because at some point Rich said he had MitD's species in mind by about that time.

Yes. There is no disagreement that as "work in progress" that would grow into a larger arc, many details were solidified in the author's mind and can be expected to never change. But the key point here is that it is extremely unlikely that every detail should be so trusted.

The Forced Intrusion spell looks exactly like a throwaway gag. It makes sense as a simple D&D joke, but it does not make much sense under the bright lights of the RAW. Once we start thinking in terms of mechanics, it is obvious that the author is bending the rules with respect to that spell. Once we accept that some details are being fudged, then there is no point thinking too much about any of the details.

[ReaderAt2046]

Yes. There is no disagreement that as "work in progress" that would grow into a larger arc, many details were solidified in the author's mind and can be expected to never change. But the key point here is that it is extremely unlikely that every detail should be so trusted.

The Forced Intrusion spell looks exactly like a throwaway gag. It makes sense as a simple D&D joke, but it does not make much sense under the bright lights of the RAW. Once we start thinking in terms of mechanics, it is obvious that the author is bending the rules with respect to that spell. Once we accept that some details are being fudged, then there is no point thinking too much about any of the details.

Especially since V doesn't use it again, even in the fights with Z.

[Mike Havran]

That doesn't say she uses the last Smite Evil use she has available that day. Just that it's the final one she uses in that fight.

It can go either way. But "She uses third and final Smite Evil" with meaning "she has no more Smite Evil this day" actually brings useful information. Phrasing "She uses third and final Smite Evil" with meaning "she won't use Smite Evil in this battle again" brings nothing new, since that's already clear from the battle description (and also, remaining enemies were confirmed non-evil anyway). That's why I think the first meaning should get a go.

[Kish]

It can go either way. But "She uses third and final Smite Evil" with meaning "she has no more Smite Evil this day" actually brings useful information. Phrasing "She uses third and final Smite Evil" with meaning "she won't use Smite Evil in this battle again" brings nothing new, since that's already clear from the battle description (and also, remaining enemies were confirmed non-evil anyway). That's why I think the first meaning should get a go.

...Excuse me? You're seriously basing an argument on "We should read everything in a way that leads to us claiming as much information as possible in the Class and Level Geekery thread"?

[Silverionmox]

It can go either way. But "She uses third and final Smite Evil" with meaning "she has no more Smite Evil this day" actually brings useful information. Phrasing "She uses third and final Smite Evil" with meaning "she won't use Smite Evil in this battle again" brings nothing new, since that's already clear from the battle description (and also, remaining enemies were confirmed non-evil anyway). That's why I think the first meaning should get a go.

I agree with that, in particular because we're never going to get more info on Miko's combat capabilities. So either we accept it as useful info until something else pops up, or we don't and then we have to wait until something else pops up. IMO the former is preferable, because it allows to paint a finer picture and we lose nothing.

[Kish]

...Yes, we do. We lose certainty of accuracy. The thread should err in favor of claiming less information, not more, whenever there is doubt. Or it should change its name to "Class and Level General Estimations."

[Mike Havran]

...Excuse me? You're seriously basing an argument on "We should read everything in a way that leads to us claiming as much information as possible in the Class and Level Geekery thread"?

In this case, the interpretation that leads us to claiming more information is logical, the alternative you suggested above is...less so.

[Sunken Valley]

Vampire Durkon is LE due to his summoning of a Hammatula
Z is NE as he went for Piscoloth.
Tarquin has spot ranks as he can see far.