How do you build a level 2 Truenamer?

[Venger]

IIRC Truenamers also got all Knowledge as class skills and had 3/4 BAB so Knowledge devotion (if you have a feat free) might not be bad alternative if(when?) your utterances fail.

You are correct, they do have all the knowledge skills as class skills and avg BA. knowledge devotion is a good choice, recommended by the leading authority, zaq

[Wise Green Bean]

The best thing for you is to play a wizard and say you are using words of power. It's a truenamer in all but butt. I know it's not what you asked for, but really, save yourself a world of hurt.

[Thefurmonger]

How telling is it that people would rather discuss the taxonomy of tomatoes (which are delicious) than the truenamer class?

This is glorious, I want to sig this. Is that okay with you?

Wow, my Sig spawned a Sig.

[Venger]

Wow, my Sig spawned a Sig.

achievement unlocked.

[theUnearther]

I too found the tomatoes discussion fascinating. If I may...

Really? Because we spent like two weeks researching them as a class in a course entirely about food, and I have a hard time believing that the entirety of that was untrue.

It was. More accurately, this is exactly like arguing whether trees falling in forests make sounds. And before this sparks a discussion about that too, let me explain. A "sound" can be
a) A series of waves propagating through matter, or
b) The perception thereof.
There is no inherent reason to choose either, really, but we all invariably do so. And as such, when two people who have chosen differently are presented with the question, they will continue arguing infinitely because they won't realize that they are not arguing about what they think they are. Of course there are waves and of course they go unperceived, but what is at stake is the name, and there being no good reason to pick one definition over the other, it's impossible to convince the other. In fact it's very hard to even realize that you are (or should be) trying to.

Back on topic (but not really), you said it was a course about food. In that context, sure, it is a vegetable, because the culinary arts treat it in a manner that is relatively consistent with other kinds of food, of which apples are not a member and, let's say, lettuce is. This group is called "vegetables".
That's for a chef. For a botanist, there is no such thing as a "vegetable". The things that chefs call that cover a wide array of parts of plants, including roots, flowers, leaves, stems and fruits (tomatoes are not the only one, either). Is this definition "more correct"? Surely you realize that both have their place.

In short: a tomato is not a fruit because "fruit" does not mean "fruit".

[The Redwolf]

Well, it was more about food "theory", like different ingredients and the science behind them. We spent a couple weeks at a time on different meats, vegetables, fruits, cheeses, and now I'm a little ticked off at the course as a whole.

[kardar233]

I too found the tomatoes discussion fascinating. If I may...



It was. More accurately, this is exactly like arguing whether trees falling in forests make sounds. And before this sparks a discussion about that too, let me explain. A "sound" can be
a) A series of waves propagating through matter, or
b) The perception thereof.
There is no inherent reason to choose either, really, but we all invariably do so. And as such, when two people who have chosen differently are presented with the question, they will continue arguing infinitely because they won't realize that they are not arguing about what they think they are. Of course there are waves and of course they go unperceived, but what is at stake is the name, and there being no good reason to pick one definition over the other, it's impossible to convince the other. In fact it's very hard to even realize that you are (or should be) trying to.

Ahem. Quantum mechanics dictates that a) is in fact dependent on b). If no observation is made the event is just a set of probabilities rather than an actual event. So, in fact, if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to hear it (or otherwise observe it) it does not make a sound because it is in a potential state of falling.

[Big Fau]

One thing to keep in mind is that even with a high Truespeech check your Utterances are all very weak. Most of them are non-notable after 12th level. The Haste utterances is single-target and lasts 5 rounds at a level when Haste is a full-party buff and lasts whole minutes.

The only real exceptions are the Gate Utterance, Restore Item (due to it being abusable), and the Earthquake Utterance (although that comes too late to matter due to flying enemies).

[Venger]

One thing to keep in mind is that even with a high Truespeech check your Utterances are all very weak. Most of them are non-notable after 12th level. The Haste utterances is single-target and lasts 5 rounds at a level when Haste is a full-party buff and lasts whole minutes.

The only real exceptions are the Gate Utterance, Restore Item (due to it being abusable), and the Earthquake Utterance (although that comes too late to matter due to flying enemies).

restore item really only does anything "broken" if you'll pardon the pun, if you use those "spell tiles" things from complete arcane to give yourself a bonus to truespeak, I thought.

[eggs]

Some of the caster buffs and metamagic effects are unique and somewhat useful (continuing a dispelled effect, empowering an ally's spell and so on), and with any Tricks to crank its Truespeech check, the Truenamer can get a couple of them onto a party member relatively quickly.

As long as the skill checks aren't a major obstacle, the class is at least playable, if not spectacular (so be sure those checks are sure things).

[Zaq]

You just had to pick the day I'm busy, didn't you?

OK, let's see what we can do. How long will this game go, are any sources banned, and how much choice over your items do you expect to have as you level up? These questions will probably have the biggest effect on how we go.

If I were starting at level 2, I'd be torn between being an azurin and being an illumian. Illumians, of course, get a great bonus to both Truespeak checks and Knowledge checks, while azurins can take Shape Soulmeld as their bonus feat and plop their free point of essentia into it, giving themselves a quick and dirty combat option to last you until your utterances will be able to help you in combat. The advantage of the azurin is that you can take Universal Aptitude and Inertia Surge as your utterances and still have something to do in combat (other than just Reversed Inertia Surge over and over, and that requires you to have several ranged characters in your party if you don't want it to be a waste of time). UA and IS are the strongest level 1 utterances in the long run, but if they don't tend to be combat powerhouses. Azurin gives you an easy way around that. If you think you'll be able to get enough bonuses from the Paragnostic Assembly, items, and so on, an azurin (with either SS: Lightning Gauntlets or SS: Dissolving Spittle) is probably a stronger choice. On the other hand, +2 Truespeak is +2 Truespeak, so if you're worried that your GM is going to be stingy with ways to get bonuses later on, illumians have that going for them. Also, if you level up quickly, the 2d6 touch attacks you're getting from the azurin won't be very interesting by level 5 or so, but you'll probably have other combat options by then.

If you want to have a combat utterance, you might consider going human (for the bonus feat), then taking Word of Nurturing and Mortalbane. The bonus feat ensures that you'll still be able to take Skill Focus right away, when you need it most, but still have access to Mortalbane. Without Mortalbane, you're probably just as well off with a crossbow for your combat options.

By level 2, if the Paragnostic Assembly exists in your world, you should be rocking a +5 bonus from them. It's not free, but it's too big a bonus to ignore. Ask your GM very nicely if you can pretty please be a member, because it's so, so helpful.

The blessing and curse of level 2 is that you really haven't had a chance to differentiate yourself from other similar characters yet. This is nice, because it doesn't take too long to build a character, but a little annoying because of how simplistic it is. At this point, you really shouldn't have too many other options to make. I do believe that you should have SF: Truespeak as your level 1 feat, and I do believe that one of your utterances should be Universal Aptitude. Beyond that, it's just a matter of how long-term you're willing and able to plan.

Looking ahead a little bit, I'd probably take Hidden Truth at level 3 (it's such a good utterance . . . I consider it to be class-defining), then maybe the level 2 Word of Nurturing at level 4. For your level 3 feat, Knowledge Devotion is a very strong choice if you want to actually attack things, while Utterance of the Evolving Mind and Extend Utterance are good if you want to just keep 'naming away.

But yeah. At level 2, you don't have enough juice in your class to rely on it alone. Either get yourself a crossbow or find an alternative (like my proposed Azurin setup), because utterances won't be enough alone. By level 6 or so, you can reasonably be uttering all the time and not run into too many issues if you do it right, but at level 2? If nothing else, the Law of Sequence will get you.

If you have any questions, lemme know. I'm happy to help.

(In other news, I've been slowly putting together a new section for my guide, so I might be able to put that up in a week or two. No promises as to the exact time, though.)

[Answerer]

restore item really only does anything "broken" if you'll pardon the pun, if you use those "spell tiles" things from complete arcane to give yourself a bonus to truespeak, I thought.

And then only if you completely ignore the suggestions in Complete Arcane about such items.

Namely the point where it's supposed to be a thematic difference with little-to-no mechanical distinction. Being repairable is a pretty major distinction.

[Lans]

Their was a token that gave a bonus to skills in a forgotten realms book that worked with truenaming. It had a cost of less than 1k gp.

It might of been something related to the harpers

[Venger]

And then only if you completely ignore the suggestions in Complete Arcane about such items.

Namely the point where it's supposed to be a thematic difference with little-to-no mechanical distinction. Being repairable is a pretty major distinction.

Well, yes, that was what I was expressing confusion about. Assuming that you do stick to the RAI for complete arcane (not disagreeing that you shouldn't) and make it so that tiles magically disintegrate/disappear/etc when crushed/snapped, then in exactly what way is restore item abusable?

[sonofzeal]

Tomatoes: I was taught that there's two relevant definitions of what's a fruit. The biologist's is based on biological function, namely whether it contains seeds (fruits do). Thing is, vegetables do too, but as the term encompasses the entire plant kingdom, that's kind of meaningless.

On the other hand you have the chef's definition, which is based around culinary function. Vegetables are by and large served in the main course. Fruits, if they appear at dinner in the first place, are relegated (or elevated) to desert status. Vegetables go in a salad; fruits in a fruit salad.

To me, if we're talking about plant biology, it makes sense to label tomatoes as fruits. But since "vegetable" is pretty much a meaningless term in that context, as soon as it comes up I think it makes perfect sense to group tomatoes in there. Celery is a stem, but we call it a vegetable. Carrots are roots but we call them vegetable. Lettuce is a leaf but we call it a vegetable. Why, then, can't we put tomatoes into the same pile, since they serve the same culinary function as a vegetable.

Unless you're going to argue for putting tomatoes in a fruit salad, of course.......



Truenamers: I really think attempting to make a lvl 2 Truenamer work is futile. At single-digit levels, you're generally going to have better luck with an NPC class. Even Expert can generally outcompete Truenamers until further in, especially if they focus UMD and Diplomancy. Truenamers become much better in later levels, and a lvl 15 one can be plenty of fun. But at single digits, I really have to recommend away from it.

[olentu]

Unless you're going to argue for putting tomatoes in a fruit salad, of course.......

I don't really see what the problem with tomatoes in a fruit salad would be.

[sonofzeal]

I don't really see what the problem with tomatoes in a fruit salad would be.

I'm sure it can be done. I'm also sure that you could get some yam or even one of the sweeter varieties of squash in there if you really wanted to. But how often have you seen it done? And then think about how many standard main courses include tomato in some form.

Cucumbers, squash, zucchinis, pumpkins, peppers, eggplant, tomatillos, christophene, okra, breadfruit, avocado, green beans, lentils, snow peas, and soybeans could all technically be considered fruits too, but nobody really talks about them the same way....

[olentu]

I'm sure it can be done. I'm also sure that you could get some yam or even one of the sweeter varieties of squash in there if you really wanted to. But how often have you seen it done? And then think about how many standard main courses include tomato in some form.

Cucumbers, squash, zucchinis, pumpkins, peppers, eggplant, tomatillos, christophene, okra, breadfruit, avocado, green beans, lentils, snow peas, and soybeans could all technically be considered fruits too, but nobody really talks about them the same way....

Eh, not often, but I don't eat fruit salad very often. Anyway, yes yes, of course I understand that tomatoes like most of the other fruits that are vegetables are generally used in a particular way.

[Tyndmyr]

where are these two feats? I've never heard of them before, they sound like they'd be really useful in iron chefs in the future to retain/obtain class skills. could you tell me what book they're in?

Unapproachable East and Dragon Mag respectively. I've used them for some pretty oddball builds before, yeah. Def handy.

IIRC Truenamers also got all Knowledge as class skills and had 3/4 BAB so Knowledge devotion (if you have a feat free) might not be bad alternative if(when?) your utterances fail.

They also get four skill focus(knowledge) feats for free. At low-mid levels, a knowledge devotion truenamer does work pretty well, yeah. They don't have the best gishy options, but you could make it work.

One thing to keep in mind is that even with a high Truespeech check your Utterances are all very weak. Most of them are non-notable after 12th level. The Haste utterances is single-target and lasts 5 rounds at a level when Haste is a full-party buff and lasts whole minutes.

The only real exceptions are the Gate Utterance, Restore Item (due to it being abusable), and the Earthquake Utterance (although that comes too late to matter due to flying enemies).

Gate fixes everything as 20, though...and you get to make all your utterances multi-target for free at what, 17? So, that helps action economy significantly, and of course, Quicken Utterance is lovely.

In addition, I'm going to point out that all Utterances are SLAs, and therefore, any SLA boosting feats can also apply to an utterance. This can be an interesting option for an utterance you use all the time without boosting the DC of it.

There's nothing particularly bad about a level 2 truenamer that doesn't apply to many other level 2 casters. Your endurance is limited, and your variety of spells available kind of sucks. So, pack a mundane backup option, and hoard scrolls.

[Venger]

Unapproachable East and Dragon Mag respectively. I've used them for some pretty oddball builds before, yeah. Def handy.

I tried looking for it, and it wasn't in unapproachable east. I figured it might be in OA, and it turns out it is. that's a pretty good feat, +1 to int checks, knowledge checks, scry (lol) and search.

people sometimes say it can sub you int for wis for will. is that the original dragon mag version or is it a different feat?

[Tyndmyr]

I tried looking for it, and it wasn't in unapproachable east. I figured it might be in OA, and it turns out it is. that's a pretty good feat, +1 to int checks, knowledge checks, scry (lol) and search.

people sometimes say it can sub you int for wis for will. is that the original dragon mag version or is it a different feat?

Stupid faulty memory. =)

I don't recall the subbing int for wis version...I know Insightful Reflexes subs int for dex in reflex saves, though. This is occasionally fantastic.

That said, it's possible, I suppose, that two versions were printed, and I only know of the one. Another feat I referenced here, Favored in Guild, has two distinctly different versions. The Cityscape version gives you a rank(which can break the cap). This is...interesting, but mostly for TO stuff. The ravenloft version is a flat +2 bonus, which is better from a Truenamer perspective...and also a lot less cheesy than dodging prereqs.

[Venger]

Stupid faulty memory. =)

I don't recall the subbing int for wis version...I know Insightful Reflexes subs int for dex in reflex saves, though. This is occasionally fantastic.

That said, it's possible, I suppose, that two versions were printed, and I only know of the one. Another feat I referenced here, Favored in Guild, has two distinctly different versions. The Cityscape version gives you a rank(which can break the cap). This is...interesting, but mostly for TO stuff. The ravenloft version is a flat +2 bonus, which is better from a Truenamer perspective...and also a lot less cheesy than dodging prereqs.

that's cool. I was going to build an archivist/renegade mastermaker and was still picking feats. would this be worth it? I'd be waddling around in medium armor, so dex wouldn't do much. I usually don't like +x to y feats, I like the ones that let you do new stuff like tactical or reserve feats.

I want to avoid being that guy, but you're confusing some feats and names and stuff with each other again. I can't blame you, the names for stuff in this game are pretty confusing sometimes:

there is no feat called "favored in guild" there is "favored in house" from the eberron stuffs (ECS and dragonmarked) that lets you make favor checks to get NPCs to do stuff for you.

there is also cityscape's "favored" (which is referring to you being favored in a guild) does not do what you said it does (I'll get to that later) but instead gives you a +2 bonus to a skill (competence though, not flat unfortunately). I don't have the ravenloft one, so I think you mixed these two up since the +2 is from cityscape. presumably the other effect you were thinking of is the ravenloft one

The effect that you are talking about, giving yourself 1 more rank in a skill even over the class skill cap, is from a feat called "primary contact" which is easy to confuse with "favored" since it requires "favored" as a prereq and is on the same darn page.

[Tyndmyr]

Nah, Ravenloft's is literally "Favored in Guild". Googling, it appears to also exist in DMG 2. If "Favored" is the same feat or not would probably depend on DM, I suppose. It looks very much like it's intended to be, despite the somewhat different name. Favored in House is something unrelated.

To add to the fun, IIRC, Exp to Castle Ravenloft inexplicably refers to Favored in Guild as "Active Guild Member" at one point. A *very* lenient DM may count all printings as separate feats, but I wouldn't bank on that. I don't have the book with me to check, but the wording may be subtly different than the other feats as well.

Long story short: Sometimes WoTC does a crap job in deconflicting feats.

[Venger]

Nah, Ravenloft's is literally "Favored in Guild". Googling, it appears to also exist in DMG 2. If "Favored" is the same feat or not would probably depend on DM, I suppose. It looks very much like it's intended to be, despite the somewhat different name. Favored in House is something unrelated.

To add to the fun, IIRC, Exp to Castle Ravenloft inexplicably refers to Favored in Guild as "Active Guild Member" at one point. A *very* lenient DM may count all printings as separate feats, but I wouldn't bank on that. I don't have the book with me to check, but the wording may be subtly different than the other feats as well.

Long story short: Sometimes WoTC does a crap job in deconflicting feats.

my apologies. as I said, I don't have ravenloft, so when I heard about you talking about breaking the cap, I knew you meant primary contact, which has the prereq of favored (and is talking about guilds) so I thought that since you were talking about cityscape, you'd flipflopped the effects.

while a DM may allow it, truenamers don't have a ton of choices for feats, so I don't know if they'd want to stack a bunch of smallish bonuses instead of mortalbane, quicken SLA, etc.

[Tyndmyr]

my apologies. as I said, I don't have ravenloft, so when I heard about you talking about breaking the cap, I knew you meant primary contact, which has the prereq of favored (and is talking about guilds) so I thought that since you were talking about cityscape, you'd flipflopped the effects.

No worries, you were absolutely correct about primary contact. It is remarkably hard to keep these all straight.

while a DM may allow it, truenamers don't have a ton of choices for feats, so I don't know if they'd want to stack a bunch of smallish bonuses instead of mortalbane, quicken SLA, etc.

Yeah...there's a point where additional +truenaming tapers off in effectiveness. If you've got enough to reliably use each utterance a few times each, popping in the odd metamagic/ignoring SR...you're pretty much good. I like to grab the boosting feats(like skill focus) nice and early on, so at low levels, my money isn't 100% slotted for gear. Being able to grab a coupla inexpensive magic items for versatility is pretty handy.

[Venger]

No worries, you were absolutely correct about primary contact. It is remarkably hard to keep these all straight.

^this. well, it is what the boards are for, after all, right?

Yeah...there's a point where additional +truenaming tapers off in effectiveness. If you've got enough to reliably use each utterance a few times each, popping in the odd metamagic/ignoring SR...you're pretty much good. I like to grab the boosting feats(like skill focus) nice and early on, so at low levels, my money isn't 100% slotted for gear. Being able to grab a coupla inexpensive magic items for versatility is pretty handy.

yeah, wands are a real helper, since you at least have UMD.

to the OP: see if your DM will just let you know all utterances, it won't make you dominate everything forever, but it will save you a few headaches when it comes to contributing. there aren't that many

[willpell]

Ahem. Quantum mechanics dictates that a) is in fact dependent on b). If no observation is made the event is just a set of probabilities rather than an actual event. So, in fact, if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to hear it (or otherwise observe it) it does not make a sound because it is in a potential state of falling.

As much as I love this common misinterpretation of quantum mechanics, it is a misinterpretation. Observation does correspond to alteration, but only because there's no magical way to observe a thing without disturbing it on the molecular level; in order to measure the position of a particle, you have to bounce another particle (such as a photon of light) off of it. So if you shine a flashlight at something that's in total darkness, you are observing it and you are collapsing its quantum superposition, but your eyes aren't what did that collapsing; the flashlight was, and whether you were looking at it or not wouldn't have mattered.

[Answerer]

As much as I love this common misinterpretation of quantum mechanics, it is a misinterpretation. Observation does correspond to alteration, but only because there's no magical way to observe a thing without disturbing it on the molecular level; in order to measure the position of a particle, you have to bounce another particle (such as a photon of light) off of it. So if you shine a flashlight at something that's in total darkness, you are observing it and you are collapsing its quantum superposition, but your eyes aren't what did that collapsing; the flashlight was, and whether you were looking at it or not wouldn't have mattered.

My knowledge of quantum mechanics is limited; I only took an introductory course on it in college, and I do not remember everything from it.

That said, I am reasonably certain that the prevailing view of quantum mechanics among physicists is that you are wrong, and that kardar is right. Perception itself is necessary; it is not merely a matter of the mechanics of the detection. This has to do with the non-commutativity of the operators involved, IIRC. But I'm not particularly qualified to explain this situation. IANAQP (I am not a quantum physicist).

[willpell]

Well if you're right then I'm happy, since as I say I love the idea that the human eye projects magical reality-altering rays, but I heard a fairly compelling argument that stated that to a physicist, "observe" means "hit with s***" (it wasn't censored, so it wasn't on this board, though unfortunately I don't remember where it was; the White Wolf boards are probably the likeliest but it might have been XKCD's forum or something). It was rather crestfalling, so if it was wrong I'll be glad, but it did sound like it was good logic - the only way to observe events at the nanoscale is through collision detection, since at such sizes a flashlight beam is really a Gatling gun and it doesn't illuminate anything unless the photons actually hit.

(In other news I saw a Youtube video just a half hour or so ago which was a TED Talk about a guy who's built a camera that takes a trillion pictures a second, and can actually follow a tiny pulse of light as it slowly moves through a bottle of water, shining inside and creating ripples of light. Very cool, and synchronistic in view of this conversation.)

[Jeff the Green]

I'm sure it can be done. I'm also sure that you could get some yam or even one of the sweeter varieties of squash in there if you really wanted to.

To be perfectly accurate, since we're being pedants already, you couldn't. If only for the reason that you can't get yams anywhere that fruit salads are popular. What is popularly called a yam in the US is really just a variety of sweet potato that has a lot of carotene.