Unlimited power with SRD only materials

[Nanoblack]

For the gate spell, creating the magic item of 'this is by RAW a major artifact of this level of power' is a more involved service ( aka further down the spell as far as the control method ) as well as something not doable by wish as ( major or not ) artifacts aren't doable via wish.

If this were TO, then I can see what you mean. However, point to me where near the start of this thread when he wanted this to be about TO and not 'by RAW, what rules can keep this from me'. By Raw, his gate methoding and wish methoding are 'too general' so he winds up screwed in the end. His DM is 'a computer' so he need to be 'less general' to get what he wants with no problems. Otherwise, by RAW and as per 'the computer', he gets screwed.

This thread went from mental exercise of 'By RAW, prevent this' to actually being prevented by RAW with citations and sterf to 'Oh crap. I can't win. I'm just gonna conveniently ignore any evidence against me.'

Forgive me, but I might need you to be a little clearer. There is no interaction between the gate spell and any artifact level magic items. There is the progression of CoI->Gate->Solar->Profit. Unless you are referring to the payment method section where it states the difference between immediate and contractual service? Because a standard action to cast a spell like ability that the Solar gets 1/day with no lasting costs sounds like an immediate service to me.



Theoretical Optimization and RAW are not mutually exclusive terms. Given the thread title, one can only hope that unlimited power doesn't fall within the realms of practical optimization and so I think common sense would default the scenario to TO. Also, can you please specify what exactly is too general? I will restate that TO exercises operate under a certain set of assumptions that have been repeated countless times over in this thread. If you need some elaboration on what exactly TO entails, just let me know and I will do my best to explain.

That last paragraph wasn't really necessary. Personally, I think that there is most likely a misunderstanding of the difference between RAW and RAI, but the wisest among us has already ceded the argument for that exact reason.

[gooddragon1]

Not sure why he doesn't just change his idea to "I use wish to grant myself every power that is imaginable or not imaginable." Using the same straw man logic.

A wish can produce any one of the following effects.
...
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
...
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

My response.

[animewatcha]

Notice that gooddragon also seems to ignore the text around the 'I win benefit' detailing said benefit is actually achieved via abilities and extreme cheese ( manipulate form and other abilities ) and not in that it actually an power entitled 'I win.'

[Psyren]

It exists. But do the powers it grants? Such as the I Win power?



http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...aracter._EVER.

Reread the section you're referencing:

Manipulate Form and Extreme Cheese: For the most part, when I refer to abilities possessed by Pun-Pun, I refer to abilities that already exist in a WoTC published sourcebook. The ability is either one seen in a base class or prestige class, or one seen in a monster stat block. However, the wording in the Manipulate Form text does not limit one to published abilities only. In fact, the descriptive text states that any ability can be granted, so long as it is Supernatural, Extraordinary, or Spell-like in nature. Allowing one the means to obtain most any ability found in published material is certainly broken. Allowing one to grant itself any ability it can conceive is ridiculousness beyond words. Basically, nothing is beyond the power of Pun-Pun, due to unrestrictive text in Manipulate Form.

Key text in bold. The "I win" and similarly silly abilities are specifically due to Manipulate Form's poor wording, which the author himself admits probably don't even fly in his own exercise.

What he's saying basically is that if you invent your own Sp, Su or Ex ability, you can then have Pun-Pun grant it to himself. That part of the entry is not TO, because abilities that don't exist require a DM to create them first. Everything else before that (including Pun-Pun granting himself divine ranks etc.) is. That section was more a bit of unbridled enthusiasm/sugar-rush on the author's part. Nobody really singles it out since the RAW parts of Pun-Pun are show-stopping enough by themselves.

[gooddragon1]

Notice that gooddragon also seems to ignore the text around the 'I win benefit' detailing said benefit is actually achieved via abilities and extreme cheese ( manipulate form and other abilities ) and not in that it actually an power entitled 'I win.'

Basically, nothing is beyond the power of Pun-Pun, due to unrestrictive text in Manipulate Form.

Sound familiar?

Generally though, I (and most everyone else that has participated in this exercise) do not use this power of Manipulate Form. It is much more fun to stay within the abilities found in the rulebooks, and doing so allows others to challenge Pun-Pun with a sliver of a chance.

===

Reread the section you're referencing:



Key text in bold. The "I win" and similarly silly abilities are specifically due to Manipulate Form's poor wording, which the author himself admits probably don't even fly in his own exercise.

What he's saying basically is that if you invent your own Sp, Su or Ex ability, you can then have Pun-Pun grant it to himself. That part of the entry is not TO, because new abilities require a DM. Everything else before that (including Pun-Pun granting himself divine ranks etc.) is.

Then, by this admission, I use whatever rules would allow him to do this as my rules to make my character of equal power. It may no longer be by TO but it should now be clear where I'm coming from.

[Psyren]

Then, by this admission, I use whatever rules would allow him to do this as my rules to make my character of equal power. It may no longer be by TO but it should now be clear where I'm coming from.

If it's not even TO anymore, what's the point? You may as well, as someone else stated earlier in the thread, use the spell research rules to grant yourself a cantrip that gives you all the abilities you invented for your stick instantaneously once cast.

It goes from being a legitimate thought-experiment at that point to mere onanism.

[gooddragon1]

If it's not even TO anymore, what's the point? You may as well, as someone else stated earlier in the thread, use the spell research rules to grant yourself a cantrip that gives you all the abilities you invented for your stick instantaneously once cast.

It goes from being a legitimate thought-experiment at that point to mere onanism.

Funny how you don't call it that when the shoe is on the other foot. I just like to see how far the rules can take me. But I'd ask that you don't say that it's against the rules please.

Independent research may involve unavailable costs at a DM's leisure. My method involves only XP.

[animewatcha]

Forgive me, but I might need you to be a little clearer. There is no interaction between the gate spell and any artifact level magic items. There is the progression of CoI->Gate->Solar->Profit. Unless you are referring to the payment method section where it states the difference between immediate and contractual service? Because a standard action to cast a spell like ability that the Solar gets 1/day with no lasting costs sounds like an immediate service to me.



Theoretical Optimization and RAW are not mutually exclusive terms. Given the thread title, one can only hope that unlimited power doesn't fall within the realms of practical optimization and so I think common sense would default the scenario to TO. Also, can you please specify what exactly is too general? I will restate that TO exercises operate under a certain set of assumptions that have been repeated countless times over in this thread. If you need some elaboration on what exactly TO entails, just let me know and I will do my best to explain.

That last paragraph wasn't really necessary. Personally, I think that there is most likely a misunderstanding of the difference between RAW and RAI, but the wisest among us has already ceded the argument for that exact reason.

I am referring to the method in which he gains the artifact-level ( in accordance to the epic level creation sterf about only major artifacts having the ability to contain this kind of power ) and how Wish doesn't create artifacts at all. This thread isn't about TO. If this is about TO, then it wouldn't really be about 'By Raw, what rules prevent this from happening'. Since this isn't TO, but is about 'by RAW, what rules..' when he gates 'a solar' exacts words, he is being too general about it. Invoking the clause within wish about the bad mojo only for gate-version. Like a deity whose base creature ( divinity ranks blah blah blah outside ) is 'a solar.' Same way with Wish. by RAW since he isn't going about about it the right way due to his 'poor wording'.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It exists. But do the powers it grants? Such as the I Win power?



http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...aracter._EVER.

The manipulate form ability is an ability of more than one sarukh. Showing where a specific creature's stat-block uses his name instead of the generic "a sarukh" or "a character with this ability" doesn't make it not work. Moreover, pun pun can legally give himself any already printed ability with manipulate form. He doesn't need to create any. Simply mimicking the tarrasque's regeneration makes him unkillable to anything that can't produce a wish effect. Pun pun's assumed limitless power comes from the limitless power of being able, after a time, to use any ability or combination of abilities in print, and have them key off of arbitrarily high stats. It has nothing whatever to do with custom abilities. Maybe the wish granted candle shouldn't work. But using the wish to get the money to simply buy a candle of invocation isn't at all problematic in any way.

Trying (and failing) to pick apart a much more well thought out and rules legal TO exploit than yours doesn't validate your own.

And you're still completely ignoring the accepted definition of TO. Whatever your thought experiment is, it's not TO.

I'm done here. Continuing to feed this fellow's addiction to attention isn't doing him, or anyone else, any good.

[gooddragon1]

The manipulate form ability is an ability of more than one sarukh. Showing where a specific creature's stat-block uses his name instead of the generic "a sarukh" or "a character with this ability" doesn't make it not work. Moreover, pun pun can legally give himself any already printed ability with manipulate form. He doesn't need to create any. Simply mimicking the tarrasque's regeneration makes him unkillable to anything that can't produce a wish effect. Pun pun's assumed limitless power comes from the limitless power of being able, after a time, to use any ability or combination of abilities in print, and have them key off of arbitrarily high stats. It has nothing whatever to do with custom abilities. Maybe the wish granted candle shouldn't work. But using the wish to get the money to simply buy a candle of invocation isn't at all problematic in any way.

Trying (and failing) to pick apart a much more well thought out and rules legal TO exploit than yours doesn't validate your own.

And you're still completely ignoring the accepted definition of TO. Whatever your thought experiment is, it's not TO.

I'm done here. Continuing to feed this fellow's addiction to attention isn't doing him, or anyone else, any good.

Not a problem, almost done anyway it seems.

[Psyren]

Funny how you don't call it that when the shoe is on the other foot.

Actually, the part I quoted about Pun-Pun (granting himself non-existent abilities) is the one part I don't agree is RAW at all. It's just that there's enough RAW before that portion that Pun-Pun still fulfills his stated goal, i.e. being the most powerful character/build in 3.5.

I just like to see how far the rules can take me. But I'd ask that you don't say that it's against the rules please.

Independent research may involve unavailable costs at a DM's leisure. My method involves only XP.

Of course it is. None of your stick's abilities are in any rulebook, so I'll point out that fact as much as I feel like.

Without a DM to invent these abilities/set that cost for you, you can't do it. Manipulate Form to grant already extant abilities is different.

[gooddragon1]

Actually, the part I quoted about Pun-Pun (granting himself non-existent abilities) is the one part I don't agree is RAW at all. It's just that there's enough RAW before that portion that Pun-Pun still fulfills his stated goal, i.e. being the most powerful character/build in 3.5.



Of course it is. None of your stick's abilities are in any rulebook, so I'll point out that fact as much as I feel like.

Without a DM to invent these abilities/set that cost for you, you can't do it. Manipulate Form to grant already extant abilities is different.

Craft Artifact
Prerequisites

Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod, Craft Staff, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge Ring, Scribe Scroll.
Benefit

The deity can craft magic arms and armor, staffs, wands, wondrous items, rings, and scrolls that exceed the normal limits for such items
Suggested Portfolio Elements

Crafts, knowledge, magic.

But not nonexisting ones as you have said. You disagree with that as you have said. I don't care about that. I follow through the logic that allows it to create what I wanted. If it is possible for pun pun to create any ability so too is it for me to create any item and by extension any ability. And that is the end of my argument.

If it isn't then it isn't.

[Psyren]

There is actually a way to use your staff the way you want - the same trick Pun-Pun uses. Add Ice Assassin (X times) to it, copy X deities, order a copy to make you a proxy, make a squirrel into your proxy, etc. etc. then recall all your divine ranks. With NI divine ranks, you can now take Craft Artifact normally and make a brand new stick with epic spells in it.

While you still can't exactly make brand new abilities out of whole cloth, epic spellcasting in your stick lets you come close, as you can now invent your own magic. Combining the right seeds and factors gets you pretty close to making your own abilities.

[gooddragon1]

There is actually a way to use your staff the way you want - the same trick Pun-Pun uses. Add Ice Assassin (X times) to it, copy X deities, order a copy to make you a proxy, make a squirrel into your proxy, etc. etc. then recall all your divine ranks. With NI divine ranks, you can now take Craft Artifact normally and make a brand new stick with epic spells in it.

While you still can't exactly make brand new abilities out of whole cloth, epic spellcasting in your stick lets you come close, as you can now invent your own magic. Combining the right seeds and factors gets you pretty close to making your own abilities.

Seed: Conjure
Conjuration (Creation)
Spellcraft DC: 21
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 0 ft.
Effect: Unattended, nonmagical object of nonliving matter up to 20 cu. ft.
Duration: 8 hours
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This seed creates a nonmagical, unattended object of nonliving matter of up to 20 cubic feet in volume. The caster must succeed at an appropriate skill check to make a complex item. The seed can create matter ranging in hardness and rarity from vegetable matter all the way up to mithral and even adamantine. Simple objects have a natural duration of 24 hours. For each additional cubic foot of matter created, increase the Spellcraft DC by +2. Attempting to use any created object as a material component or a resource during epic spell development causes the spell to fail and the object to disappear.

The conjure seed can be used in conjunction with the life and fortify seeds for an epic spell that creates an entirely new creature, if made permanent. To give a creature spell-like abilities, apply other epic seeds to the epic spell that replicate the desired ability. To give the creature a supernatural or extraordinary ability rather than a spell-like ability, double the cost of the relevant seed. Remember that two doublings equals a tripling, and so forth. To give a creature Hit Dice, use the fortify seed. Each 5 hit points granted to the creature gives it an additional 1 HD. Once successfully created, the new creature will breed true.

This might be of interest.

[Psyren]

This might be of interest.

Right. but you'd need a DM to invent the new ability before your epic seeds can bestow it - the same issue Pun-Pun runs into, and the reason why I say it ceases to be TO once you start inventing your own stuff.

[gooddragon1]

Right. but you'd need a DM to invent the new ability before your epic seeds can bestow it - the same issue Pun-Pun runs into, and the reason why I say it ceases to be TO once you start inventing your own stuff.

Precisely. That's exactly what I wanted. My character to be on par with pun pun as it reaches towards infinity but by using even less.

[Psyren]

Precisely. That's exactly what I wanted. My character to be on par with pun pun as it reaches towards infinity but by using even less.

You've already failed that metric though - your build needs Grey Elf Wizard 5, while Pun-Pun's fastest entry is Kobold Paladin 1. So he has ascended while you're still killing rats for XP and made sure you would never rise to challenge him.

[gooddragon1]

You've already failed that metric though - your build needs Grey Elf Wizard 5, while Pun-Pun's fastest entry is Kobold Paladin 1. So he has ascended while you're still killing rats for XP and made sure you would never rise to challenge him.

I didn't mean so much in level as I meant by staying entirely within the SRD. Pun pun requires sourcebooks whereas this does not require anything outside the SRD.

[Psyren]

You still have to go outside. Ice Assassin is in Frostburn; without that, you can't achieve a divine rank without a DM's assistance and therefore can't make an artifact which means you can't use epic spells and thus creating magic requires spell research which again requires a DM... etc.

[gooddragon1]

You still have to go outside. Ice Assassin is in Frostburn; without that, you can't achieve a divine rank without a DM's assistance and therefore can't make an artifact which means you can't use epic spells and thus creating magic requires spell research which again requires a DM... etc.

Right. but you'd need a DM to invent the new ability before your epic seeds can bestow it - the same issue Pun-Pun runs into, and the reason why I say it ceases to be TO once you start inventing your own stuff.

Pun pun bypasses it. Then so does my character.

Though note: I do it through "assistance" on item creation. Not spell creation.

[Psyren]

Pun pun bypasses it.

No it doesn't. The part of Pun-Pun that I quoted ("I win") isn't RAW.

The rest of it is, but can't be done SRD-only.

[gooddragon1]

No it doesn't. The part of Pun-Pun that I quoted ("I win") isn't RAW.

The rest of it is, but can't be done SRD-only.

If what he does to gain unlimited power is not RAW then neither is what mine does.

I tack on a secondary of willing to go outside SRD to achieve it RAW but the objective is to reach the same power with the same assumptions while remaining SRD.

[Twilightwyrm]

Wish creates an item: Candle of Invocation
Item casts Gate at 17th level. Also Efreeti casts SLA at 12th CL

Wow, that is a bit bizarre, and the candle of invocation is kind of a round about way of doing things. I could say the DM could force you to roll a knowledge arcana check in order to actually know what a candle of invocation is, but that is crossing over into the point of maliciousness (and uncomfortable levels of frustration if taken to its logical conclusion), so I'll conclude, at least as far as this bit is concerned, by saying fair enough, I was mistaken, and yes, you are right, those can mechanically work.

I could also note how this is not necessarily ultimate power, as the power to do this exact thing still exists, and now all of the sudden this 5th level wizard is having to deal with an unintended case of provoking a mutual assured destruction situation, but I guess thinking of the consequences of this wouldn't exactly be necessarily for theoretical optimization.

The only remaining problem I see is my last point, that the creating magic items section of the Wish spell exists in this vague area relating to custom item creation, as I noted by the slight variation in language that would be necessary to actually imply this. Sort of like a Schrodinger's cat that can only be determined to be alive or dead by the expert opinion of a DM. Either way, however, it is reliant on DM fiat.

[Psyren]

If what he does to gain unlimited power is not RAW then neither is what mine does.

I tack on a secondary of willing to go outside SRD to achieve it RAW but the objective is to reach the same power with the same assumptions while remaining SRD.

I know your objective - I'm just telling you what you want isn't possible. Either you have to go outside the SRD (in which case Pun-Pun is faster), or you have to rely on DM fiat to create what you need (which Pun-Pun does not.)

If that still isn't clear, there's no other way I can state it to convince you otherwise.

[gooddragon1]

I know your objective - I'm just telling you what you want isn't possible. Either you have to go outside the SRD (in which case Pun-Pun is faster), or you have to rely on DM fiat to create what you need (which Pun-Pun does not.)

If that still isn't clear, there's no other way I can state it to convince you otherwise.

You stated his I win ability/creating custom abilities is not RAW. If that is DM fiat then there we are.

[Psyren]

You stated his I win ability/creating custom abilities is not RAW. If that is DM fiat then there we are.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. That section doesn't invalidate the other things Pun-Pun can do, but those things require non-SRD material (Serpent Kingdoms and Frostburn, e.g.)

[gooddragon1]

Yes, that's what I'm saying. That section doesn't invalidate the other things Pun-Pun can do, but those things require non-SRD material (Serpent Kingdoms and Frostburn, e.g.)

Good, then we both use DM fiat to get it. But he uses serpent kingdoms to get sarrukh grant ability ability and I only use SRD. Still uses fiat, but doesn't go out of SRD.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You stated his I win ability/creating custom abilities is not RAW. If that is DM fiat then there we are.

Damnit, I said I wouldn't add anything else here.

The "I win" bit, isn't a necessary part of pun pun. He's still a creature of essentially limitless power without it. That bit is technically RAW, but it's not TO because it requires DM fiat to function. The rest of pun pun is both RAW and TO because it requires no DM fiat whatsoever and, much more importantly, allows pun pun to do literally anything any other character that has ever been printed can do.

You're focusing on an utterly irrelevant piece of the Pun Pun thread.

[Psyren]

Good, then we both use DM fiat to get it. But he uses serpent kingdoms to get sarrukh grant ability ability and I only use SRD. Still uses fiat, but doesn't go out of SRD.

What? The non-custom parts of Pun-Pun aren't fiat. Every one of them can be found in a sourcebook.

Damnit, I said I wouldn't add anything else here.

The "I win" bit, isn't a necessary part of pun pun. He's still a creature of essentially limitless power without it. That bit is technically RAW, but it's not TO because it requires DM fiat to function. The rest of pun pun is both RAW and TO because it requires no DM fiat whatsoever and, much more importantly, allows pun pun to do literally anything any other character that has ever been printed can do.

You're focusing on an utterly irrelevant piece of the Pun Pun thread.

Yep, that

[gooddragon1]

What? The non-custom parts of Pun-Pun aren't fiat. Every one of them can be found in a sourcebook.

Yes. I mean only with respect to his custom abilities. I do not care about any of the other ones. Only his custom ones.

You see, while he can attain nearly unlimited power, without the ability to define his abilities he's still limited. It's when he can go outside of the rules and create his own that he actually gains unlimited power. Or at least that's how I feel about it.