League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

[Eldariel]

Her range isn't that high, guys, christing god.

Oh, and as it happens I opened Froggen's stream for no particular reason and immediately saw him on Lux with nothing but DFG, boots of speed, and a health potion. I feel so vindicated right now.

There's some mages who basically never build it tho; Anivia, Kennen, Cassiopeia & Morgana for instance. Well, maybe as 4th/5th item in some special cases but beyond that. It's rare enough on Vlad too.

[sonofzeal]

Note to self: Max Payne-style noir narration of absolutely everything in all-chat is not acceptable Teemo play.

Honestly, that sounds like about the best possible Teemo play. Keep it up, the others were merely jealous of your awesomeness.

[Miscast_Mage]

Why didn't you just mute him?

Eh, I really really dislike the idea of muting, or otherwise cutting off someone completely; it just feels like something should be left open, if the person changes their ways, or something to that effect.

He probably forgot he could.

That too. Shaddup.

But yeah, I just personally don't feel comfortable muting, no matter how horrid the person, unless they're spamming to the point where the communication in of itself is an act of hostility.

Also... Swain's perfectly viable as a mid mage on SR, right? I think I've asked this before...

Basic build for him goes like: Spell Boots, Catalyst to RoA, maybe early chalice (upgrading it last probably), death cap/Rylai's, hourglass, right?

Yeah, Swain is quite a good mid on SR, in my opinion; pre-six he has scary damage that almost no-one ever accounts for. If he can get his snare off, especially if the enemy champ draws minion aggro first, he can E+Q, ignite and get a few auto attacks off, he can do a hell of a lot of damage.

Edit: Also, might be worth pointing out that Swain's and Kat's ults are technically three single-target spells, not one AoE spell, with all the relevant benefits regarding Rylai's, spellvamp, and Blackfire Torch. Kinda cool.

Huh, never realised that before; it might just make me try out Rylais on Swain sometime.

[ex cathedra]

There's some mages who basically never build it tho; Anivia, Kennen, Cassiopeia & Morgana for instance. Well, maybe as 4th/5th item in some special cases but beyond that. It's rare enough on Vlad too.

I feel like it's actually rather strong on Cassiopeia, and I dare say that if people were building it on Karthus it's probably viable on Cass and Anivia. Kennen is energy-based (CDR is somewhat less valuable when you have a hard resource cap like energy), working DFG into Morgana's combo is awkward, and both of them have a huge incentive to build early Abyssals/Hourglasses.

It's also the only CDR item in Vlad's arsenal that doesn't force him to give up significant amounts of damage. He even amplifies it by 14%/12%/5%/whatever value to which they've most recently nerfed his ult.

Edit: Also, might be worth pointing out that Swain's and Kat's ults are technically three single-target spells, not one AoE spell, with all the relevant benefits regarding Rylai's, spellvamp, and Blackfire Torch. Kinda cool.

That's, uhm, actually not true AFAIK. Both Swain ult and Kat ult interact as AoE abilities. Ahri W, on the other hand, will proc single-target effects on multiple enemies.

[Cogwheel]

Honestly, that sounds like about the best possible Teemo play. Keep it up, the others were merely jealous of your awesomeness.

I dunno, I'm partial to quoting grimdark space marine-esque passages of the Scout's Code too.

Proberly because people would rather have you focus on actualy playing the game

You wound me, sir. I went 8/2 and won a 1v2 Proving Grounds match with that. Who's to say I don't focus?

[Mephit]

I feel like it's actually rather strong on Cassiopeia, and I dare say that if people were building it on Karthus it's probably viable on Cass and Anivia. Kennen is energy-based (CDR is somewhat less valuable when you have a hard resource cap like energy), working DFG into Morgana's combo is awkward, and both of them have a huge incentive to build early Abyssals/Hourglasses.

But saying it's 'strong' on a champion is no reason to call it a problem. You can't build it on Cass or Karthus before they finish their core.

Lux and Orianna usually don't build it either because they prefer Grail, which means that combined with Blue buff the CDR from DFG can go to waste.

I might be going crazy because I was convinced I'd posted 4 paragraphs about this yesterday. Don't know what happened, maybe I didn't submit properly? Anyway, it might be a bit too strong of an option right now, but what Riot is doing with it is overshooting the objective. They're both making it an unviable item to build, and they nerfed short range burst mages even more.

Edit: Oh ok, so that explains some things.

[Eldariel]

I feel like it's actually rather strong on Cassiopeia, and I dare say that if people were building it on Karthus it's probably viable on Cass and Anivia. Kennen is energy-based (CDR is somewhat less valuable when you have a hard resource cap like energy), working DFG into Morgana's combo is awkward, and both of them have a huge incentive to build early Abyssals/Hourglasses.

It's viable but it's not a high priority item and generally on Anivia and Cass I'd prefer to just get a tad tankier so they can do their thing and win the game. They really don't need the extra burst since they dominate games without it.

It's worth noting that Froggen is just about the only person who gets it on Karthus and even he gets it as a 3rd item earliest (after RoA and Deathcap).

It's also the only CDR item in Vlad's arsenal that doesn't force him to give up significant amounts of damage. He even amplifies it by 14%/12%/5%/whatever value to which they've most recently nerfed his ult.

Feh, it doesn't really mesh that well with his playstyle tho. It's again certainly viable if you can build it but Vlad generally has too high priorities on other items to get it early. Swain has similar considerations.

In general, you want DFG early if you are a single-target assassin or really want the CDR, and don't have any other priority items to get. And it obviously is very low priority on tanky casters who plan on sustained damage.

[Volatar]

You all are missing the point that if Lux is close enough to use DFG, she is too close.

[Laudandus]

You all are missing the point that if Lux is close enough to use DFG, she is too close.

That's not really true. Her passive is relevant, and DFG has a longer range than her passive. She usually goes in when she lands a root and tries to get a kill.

[Adumbration]

Does anyone know if Clairvoyance is available for the reworked Twisted Treeline? Considering wards are banned, might come in handy.

I'm fairly excited about the rework.

[NineThePuma]

I'll check later today.

[Volatar]

That's not really true. Her passive is relevant, and DFG has a longer range than her passive. She usually goes in when she lands a root and tries to get a kill.

Lux's passive is relevant in lane, and conveniently is extra damage when you hit someone with your ult. Late game it is not.

[9mm]

In general, you want DFG early if you are a single-target assassin or really want the CDR, and don't have any other priority items to get. And it obviously is very low priority on tanky casters who plan on sustained damage.

Early or not; DFG is a % based nuke that can be added at any point of your combo that will always be relevant. There is no caster that can't use it effectively.

Which is why Morello was in favor of removing it, an idea I hope eventually wins out.

[Laudandus]

Lux's passive is relevant in lane, and conveniently is extra damage when you hit someone with your ult. Late game it is not.

It's not great late game, but CDR is good and and you're going to be able to cast a 750 range targeted spell on someone at some point in a team fight. For sure it's not great late game, but DFG in general is a snowball item for early/midgame small fights.

I don't think it's optimal on Lux most of the time, but certainly it is a viable option if you want to snowball a lane advantage.

[Volatar]

It's not great late game, but CDR is good and and you're going to be able to cast a 750 range targeted spell on someone at some point in a team fight. For sure it's not great late game, but DFG in general is a snowball item for early/midgame small fights.

I don't think it's optimal on Lux most of the time, but certainly it is a viable option if you want to snowball a lane advantage.

Any proper Lux build should already be hitting 35-40% CDR by mid game.

[Eldariel]

Early or not; DFG is a % based nuke that can be added at any point of your combo that will always be relevant. There is no caster that can't use it effectively.

Most items will always be relevant; that doesn't really speak volumes one way or another. You'd always rather have than not have Zhonya's and Abyssal, for instance, and there's no mage who wouldn't want Rylai's and Lichbane is nice on more people than just those who usually build it. And of course every mage uses Voidstaff and Deathcap efficiently.

The question is about the opportunity cost and which item you find the most useful and the question with DFG is if it's more optimal than another choice often enough as to push other items out of the meta, where I find the answer to be "No". It has its niché and certain champions can definitely use it and it's too powerful right now but ultimately it's the only "pure offense" itemization option in addition to Deathcap.

It's the Phantom Dancer to Deathcap's Infinity Edge on AP bursters; the two complement each other in a superb manner; DFG has an AP-scaling offensive ability and CDR to use abilities more often and some AP to multiply with Deathcap and Deathcap provides the AP to make those abilities hit harder and to make the nuke stronger and to multiply the base AP.

[ex cathedra]

You all are missing the point that if Lux is close enough to use DFG, she is too close.

Lux's passive is relevant in lane, and conveniently is extra damage when you hit someone with your ult. Late game it is not.

Any proper Lux build should already be hitting 35-40% CDR by mid game.

Nonsense. There's no reason for Lux to be standing more than 750 units away from the enemy team for the entirety of a fight. That's just wasteful. You have teammates, and so you've got a tank/bruiser frontline. Use them.

Lux is a burst mage with naturally high cooldowns. DFG provided the best burst in the game in addition to 15% CDR. It was perfect. What "proper" Lux builds are you talking about? I'm fairly certain that if you have more than 35% CDR during the "midgame" as Lux and you don't have a DFG your build probably sucks.

[Mephit]

Lux is a burst mage with naturally high cooldowns. DFG provided the best burst in the game in addition to 15% CDR. It was perfect. What "proper" Lux builds are you talking about? I'm fairly certain that if you have more than 35% CDR during the "midgame" as Lux and you don't have a DFG your build probably sucks.

An entirely valid alternative is Grail, which solves some of her mana problems. You can get DFG after that, but most people would prefer Deathcap after that.
It's how Azubu Frost's Rapidstar builds her.
DFG is an option for Lux, but not having DFG doesn't mean your build sucks. Just like DFG being in your build doesn't mean it sucks.

[ex cathedra]

You might have noticed that my posts tend to include a bit of hyperbole.

Grail is a really pitiful (read: strong but unappetizing due to the stiff competition it faces from other AP items) midgame item for most burst mages, though, especially those whose burst is a volatile as Lux's. I mean, you're spending 3100 gold on 90 AP worth of damage. That's not great. I feel like Athene's is a super strong item on paper but in actual in-game context it's often awkward to build around.

If I had to choose between some combination of Sorc boots, Deathcap, Void Staff, DFG, and Athene's in order to allocate my first 7-or-so thousand gold of the game, I can't say that I think Athene's would be a proper choice in most (or nearly any) situations.

[Eldariel]

You might have noticed that my posts tend to include a bit of hyperbole.

Grail is a really pitiful (read: strong but unappetizing due to the stiff competition it faces from other AP items) midgame item for most burst mages, though, especially those whose burst is a volatile as Lux's. I mean, you're spending 3100 gold on 90 AP worth of damage. That's not great. I feel like Athene's is a super strong item on paper but in actual in-game context it's often awkward to build around.

If I had to choose between some combination of Sorc boots, Deathcap, Void Staff, DFG, and Athene's in order to allocate my first 7-or-so thousand gold of the game, I can't say that I think Athene's would be a proper choice in most (or nearly any) situations.

It does have the edge of building out of item that can conceivably replace Doran's Rings in many midlanes. I definitely like it on few choice champs that really want CDR and mana (Orianna being the posterchild here; pretty good on Anivia, Swain & would be nice on Kassadin too if not for his ridiculously large Core).

[Forrestfire]

So... first we get Spider Queen, and now Rocketeer Tristana.

What's next, Magma Chamber?

[TechnOkami]

So... first we get Spider Queen, and now Rocketeer Tristana.

What's next, Magma Chamber?

Nah, the Batlecast series to come (Anivia, Kog, Skarner).

[PersonMan]

Nah, the Batlecast series to come (Anivia, Kog, Skarner).

I think what he meant was "hey, [cancelled thing 1] and [cancelled thing 2] are coming out, what's next, [cancelled thing 3]?"

[TechnOkami]

I think what he meant was "hey, [cancelled thing 1] and [cancelled thing 2] are coming out, what's next, [cancelled thing 3]?"

...oh...

...

...slowly exiting stage left...

[Maeglin_Dubh]

I like Athene's Unnecessary Goblet on Karma a lot, as well.

[NineThePuma]

I like Athene's on anything that expects to 100-0 their mana pool quickly.

[Mephit]

You might have noticed that my posts tend to include a bit of hyperbole.

It's probably because we both tend to not use smileys that much and that makes us look more serious about things.

I see where you're coming from, and maybe you're right that DFG on lux midgame is superior to Grail, but you also need to factor in the huge advantage Lux gets from having an early Chalice as opposed to Kage's Pick given how mana hungry she is. Being able to stay in lane and use abilities that much longer helps her early game a lot. And once you have that chalice, the best course of action is of course finishing it into Grail instead of building another big item from scratch.

[Drascin]

I like Athene's on anything that expects to 100-0 their mana pool quickly.

I've found it to work beautifully on Galio and Maokai, myself. They don't exactly burst, but their main skills are horribly mana intensive and need to be cast with regularity in most matchups - and both of them can make good use of some resists and AP as well!

[Cogwheel]

I like Athene's on Olaf.

Sometimes Garen. It's pretty good.

[ex cathedra]

That's a strong argument for Chalice, especially for mages that just want to wave-clear and farm throughout their midgame, but Lux's mana costs aren't actually all that constrictive, assuming of course that you're donated 7 minute and 12 minute blue buffs. After all, she's one of the lucky champions who gets the entirety of their burst out of only 3 spell casts. Many champions have it much worse.

If I wasn't promised my blue buff or didn't expect that it would be easy to secure, I could definitely see myself building Chalice rather than DFG. However, in my experience, that isn't necessary in most scenarios, and DFG makes your combo just so much more solid. I think it really gives Lux the 100-0 potential that she often lacks.