League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

[TheShrike]

Yay, they fixed LoLdrop!

No they didn't. They partially mitigated some of the damage it causes.

EDIT: HOW CAN ANIVIA DIE?!?!?!

[Dada]

To be fair you can't really "fix" dos attacks. You can modify your system so the attacks takes a lot of more effort and thus becomes unrealistic, you can mitigate the consequences of a successful attack by designing your system with the risk in mind, and you can go after the bad guys afterwards.

Edit: Oh, and the point. Riot appears to have done the last two, and possibly all three of these things.

[MCerberus]

No they didn't. They partially mitigated some of the damage it causes.

EDIT: HOW CAN ANIVIA DIE?!?!?!

I think at this point they should replace Anivia's minimap icon with a trollface.

[Neoseanster]

Anyone seen this? This intrigues me.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...48823#29448823

[Winthur]

It does have its uses, or, as one of its biggest proponents would say, "Okay..."

"Okay" as in "Okay, I'm going to stick even more resistances on top of huge resistances I already have just because it will cause me to deal slightly more damage that I won't get to deal because my natural HP is low as hell and causes me to die to a single AP Sion combo or something equally pathetic".

Whenever I see a Rammus rush a Thornmail, I cringe. It's not core. It doesn't help you against magic damage teams. It pretty much gives you just 100 armor, you already have it for when it would be relevant unless you get it baited out of you. Physical casters laugh at it, AD carries can go for an earlier Bloodthirster or some magic resistance and nullify its passive, and then they get Last Whisper so it's not even that good late game. It's stupid.

Get an Aegis. Or Shurelya. Or Randuin. Or even Sunfire. Or hell, go for Warmogs if you are fed enough. Buy an Elixir of Fortitude. You are 3k+ health and enemy physicals hurt too much? Consider Thornmail. Right after considering Frozen Heart, maybe. More damage? You could try Atmas (though its nerfed) and add crit chance on top of your huge AD from armor and HP. Wit's End could even help. Thornmail is just so silly.

[Neoseanster]

It takes a lot of lifesteal and magic resistance to nullify thornmail's damage return - and even once you do, your lifesteal is being nullified. It's a situational item, but in some situations it is useful. Mind, in most situations something else is more useful, but if they have a very autoattack heavy team, it's sometimes nice to grab.

[Winthur]

It takes a lot of lifesteal and magic resistance to nullify thornmail's damage return - and even once you do, your lifesteal is being nullified. It's a situational item, but in some situations it is useful. Mind, in most situations something else is more useful, but if they have a very autoattack heavy team, it's sometimes nice to grab.

Against very autoattack heavy teams I'd be more pressured to finish Frozen Heart honestly unless that can be covered by someone else. Randuin's seems more helpful against them as well. If I had to go fast Frozen Heart after gp/10 items I probably want to go back to getting some health unless their AP carry doesn't exist. And again Thornmail becomes a late item suggestion. It's situational in that it sometimes doesn't even work against the very thing it's supposed to be countering.

[TechnOkami]

The Gangplank run I'm on is Bankplank/Tankplank, who is a Critplank as well!

Slightly different build on my end. Shooting for these items: Merc Treads, Chalice MK I, Infinity Edge, Warmogs, Atma's, Wit's End, and I haven't figured our what to do with that chalice in terms of replacing or upgrading it.

[Silverraptor]

Oooh! I forgot about Executioner's Calling. Holy ****, that might just work! I was just thinking about how to sneak some lifesteal in there anyways. Thank you; you just solved this little puzzle. Have a cookie.

No they didn't. They partially mitigated some of the damage it causes.

EDIT: HOW CAN ANIVIA DIE?!?!?!

I now want to try running teleport on nivia just to do this!

[Godskook]

It's reallly just flat and percentage penetration that are problematic, since each percentage point of % pen lowers your effective flat pen by the same percentage. LW reducing your flat ArPen by an additional 36% is pretty huge.

Oh hey, let's look at your typically 200 armor target. The caster has no source of flat pen before items, other than the 10% from masteries.

Normal damage:

100/(100 + 200*.9) = 35.71%

With Youmuu's:

100/(100 + 180*.9) = 38.16%

With Last Whisper(and not Youmuu's):

100/(100 + 200*.9*.6) = 48.07%

With both:

100/(100 + 180*.9*.6) = 50.70%

So, without any other source of Pen, Youmuu's alone is granted +2.45% damage. LW alone is granting +12.36% damage. Getting LW after Youmuu's adds +12.54% damage. Getting Youmuu's after LW adds +2.63% damage.

Now let's assume 100 and 300 armor, since those both show up too by the time most people buy LW.

Spoiler

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100 armor case:
Without items: 52.63%
With Youmuu's: 58.13%
With LW: 64.93%
With both: 69.83%
Increase of Youmuu's alone: 5.5%
Increase of LW alone: 12.3%
Increase of LW after Youmuu's: 11.7%
Increase of Youmuu's after LW: 4.9%

300 armor case:
Without items: 27.02%
With Youmuu's: 28.40%
With LW: 38.16%
With both: 39.80%
Increase of Youmuu's alone: 1.38%
Increase of LW alone: 11.14%
Increase of LW after Youmuu's: 11.40%
Increase of Youmuu's after LW: 1.64%

Basically, flat and % pen don't synergize only when flat pen is closer to the amount of target's armor, which with just items and the % mastery is near 100 armor. For everyone else, the flat pen may not be valuable enough against that much armor, but its value is only enhanced by LW, not diminished.

What you're really seeing is the diminishing value of armor stacking playing out in the flat pen, since the higher armor is, the less a flat adjustment is worth, relative to a smaller armor value, both positive(by increasing armor) or negative(by increasing flat pen).

[ex cathedra]

Slightly different build on my end. Shooting for these items: Merc Treads, Chalice MK I, Infinity Edge, Warmogs, Atma's, Wit's End, and I haven't figured our what to do with that chalice in terms of replacing or upgrading it.

You know that the Wit's End proc doesn't crit, right?

[Math_Mage]

So I tried ranked today.

(Solo Que Horror Story inside containing a gunblade chogath)

Spoiler

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Don't think I will be going back anytime soon. First and only game we get a guy asking for rammus bans. This sets off a little light in my head saying "DANGER DANGER" but I ignore it and that guy and do not ban rammus. I play kennen versus Cass mid.

That same guy calls jungle and picked cho'gath. Alright no big deal cho is pretty good at jungle. About ten minutes into the game this guy have ganks zero times and out top lane was getting denied hard (garen versus diana).

I didn't need any help mid as I got first blood and 2 other kills when later the jungle maokia dived me and I just flashed into tower and stunned him.

So I tell him to go help top. He tells me to f*** off. Alright so he is a little hostile, ok no big deal it happens, maybe he is having a bad day.

So our top garen versus diana is half her CS and down 2 kills. Despite this he manages to be more helpful then cho'gath the entire rest of the game.

Why?

CHO
BUILT
GUNBLADE
FIRST

At first I thought it was just a troll but the guy adamantly insisted that he got "tons of kills" with it.

Anyway it is now 30 minutes in and I died a few times to diana coming to mid. Our bot lane is doing ok (sona and corki versus nunu kogma) but between diana and maokia jumping our corki, he never really does anything and the enemy kog cleans up.

After trying to talk to him about his build he just starts verbally attacking me in all chat. Even the enemy team got angry at this guy.

So we go from a 12-5 lead at 20 mins to 29-37 by the end of the game.

After game I try to explain to the guy how to build cho jungle but he repeatedly said that his "2000 elo friend riot" always wins with this build.



THREE WINS

He got to level 30 playing bot games nearly exclusively and then went straight into ranked.

So nah I think I will stick with normals for now.

You spent way too much mental energy worrying about this guy's build and play. You're mid, you're ahead, YOU go gank. That's your job as well as his, and Kennen happens to be really good at roaming quickly. Plus, if you're ahead, you're also really good at pushing lane quickly, so that's not the concern it might otherwise be.

More broadly, your solo queue experience will be defined by your ability to doublethink. On the one hand, you want to strive for cooperation and teamwork; on the other hand, you want to ignore your teammates' mistakes and just play your best individual game, and focus on what YOU can do better each game rather than on what your TEAMMATES are doing wrong. To me, teammates playing badly are not horror stories. It feels far worse to be the one feeding and throwing the game for my team.

So yeah, report him for his abusive behavior in chat, but at the same time, you seriously had more important things to do in that game than let his bad play get under your skin in the first place.

Don't judge solo queue (and ranked) on a single game. This is the whole reason for the elo hell myth and people complaining about their rating. Elo does not measure your performance in a game, but your performance over a (large) amount of games. Sometimes you will get that gunblade cho, sometimes he will be on the opposing team, and once he and you have played enough games, your elo difference will be large enough that you won't encounter him anymore. With that said, solo queue can definitely be a disheartening an frustrating experience. Don't play it if you don't enjoy it.

On a slightly related note, I am starting to believe in elo hell. Not in the traditional elo hell where it is impossible to get elo due to stupid teammates, but in a rating where it feels like most of the games are decided not by good play, but simply by more or less random throws. I have recently dropped 200ish elo (from 1600 to 1400), which I kinda deserve since I play way worse that I did when I got to 1600. Down in the low 1400s though, it feels like most games (like 75% or so) are decided by afks, leaves, solo adventures in the unwarded enemy jungle, or some guy not understanding that you should not engage on your lane opponent(s) when you are down 3 kills and 2 levels. Am I the only one experiencing this? I kinda feel like it shouldn't be true and that I am falling into some fallacy.

Well, the thing is, throws are more obvious at 1400, but they're no less game-changing at 1800. And much of it really does come down to babysitting your teammates, ctrl-pinging their solo adventures and telling them to hug turret in lane and so on.

But can you put a price on "Stop hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself" ;)

You cannot.

To respond to the larger conversation on this point, Thornmail Rammus is the "Oh, look, I'm miles ahead of everyone, let me just win the game now" choice. You don't get it to mitigate enemy damage so much as to dive towers.

No they didn't. They partially mitigated some of the damage it causes.

EDIT: HOW CAN ANIVIA DIE?!?!?!

At least she can't start teleporting while in egg form anymore.

Anyone seen this? This intrigues me.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...48823#29448823

My only concern is with the as-yet unrevealed ramifications of a high Honor score. Otherwise, it looks like a solid implementation.

[MCerberus]

Slightly different build on my end. Shooting for these items: Merc Treads, Chalice MK I, Infinity Edge, Warmogs, Atma's, Wit's End, and I haven't figured our what to do with that chalice in terms of replacing or upgrading it.

I just find the concept of Bankplank hilarious. You're just sitting in a frozen lane where neither party cares to kill each other...

Only you have more gp/5s because you're gangplank and can use three
and you have more assists, because you're gangplank and can ult
and you get more gold per CS, because you're gangplank and can Q

So you just show up somewhere in midgame and stomp face because you have items.

edit- my build usually pans out to:

Boots + 2 + 1 mana -> Philo -> Avarice -> HoG -> Boots of Whatever you Feel like for your Boots -> crit cloak -> 'mog's -> Atma's
Then have an eye to build Reverie, Ghostblade, Omen, IE, and PD in whatever combo and order is necessary.

Combining Ghostblade, Reverie, and Raise Morale is hilarious.

[Godskook]

It takes a lot of lifesteal and magic resistance to nullify thornmail's damage return

To add to this, anyone with Thornmail is going to be breaching 200 armor, at minimum. Without ArPen, it would take exactly 90% lifesteal to break even against the target. More armor and ArPen mess with the equation, but not enough that 1 bloodthirster is going to 'negate' it.

Also, Thornmail is really cheap, at a mere 2k. Since many games don't last long enough for junglers to finish their item builds, that shouldn't be overlooked.

[TechnOkami]

You know that the Wit's End proc doesn't crit, right?

Well, yeah... I thought it was a good idea... well, guess I'll just say it now: that's what I thought would be a half-baked decent build on GP, what would you suggest?

[Godskook]

Well, yeah... I thought it was a good idea... well, guess I'll just say it now: that's what I thought would be a half-baked decent build on GP, what would you suggest?

Maw is the first thing I think of when I want actual AD plus MR.

[Math_Mage]

Well, yeah... I thought it was a good idea... well, guess I'll just say it now: that's what I thought would be a half-baked decent build on GP, what would you suggest?

Ghostblade. Trinity.

[Silverraptor]

So, anyone else in PBE want to test out if the new champ's hidden passive? Just give me a call.

[LordShotGun]

You spent way too much mental energy worrying about this guy's build and play. You're mid, you're ahead, YOU go gank. That's your job as well as his, and Kennen happens to be really good at roaming quickly. Plus, if you're ahead, you're also really good at pushing lane quickly, so that's not the concern it might otherwise be.

I didn't even notice cho's build till after the 20 minute mark and laning had ended and he was dying faster then me in teamfights.

I was versus a cass who usually followed me. This ended up causing my first and only death before 20 minutes as diana was way more helpful in a 2v2 then garen. I did push the lane hard but again, it was a cass and she can do one Q and one W and clean the wave. Eventually I just ignored top and ganked bottom lane which worked out once before the learned to ward.

More broadly, your solo queue experience will be defined by your ability to doublethink. On the one hand, you want to strive for cooperation and teamwork; on the other hand, you want to ignore your teammates' mistakes and just play your best individual game, and focus on what YOU can do better each game rather than on what your TEAMMATES are doing wrong. To me, teammates playing badly are not horror stories. It feels far worse to be the one feeding and throwing the game for my team.

Honestly that was possibly one of my best kennen games. That made it all the more painful when nothing I could do would change the fact that the enemy diana and Amumu were powerful factors in teamfights while garen and cho'gath...were not.

So yeah, report him for his abusive behavior in chat, but at the same time, you seriously had more important things to do in that game than let his bad play get under your skin in the first place.

What really got under my skin was his adamant behavior that his build was the best in the world and that anyone suggesting otherwise was a total noob. Even when I tried to link to cho'gath build guides in post game chat, he would spitefully ignore them.

To sum up, at least my Normal Que hidden ELO has me to the point that I can expect a certain level of play. I realize that I will have to deal with bad people until I reach that skill level again but I just had a poor first game that turned me off.

Again I really wish riot would implement a legitimate replay system so that I could show this and we all could laugh.

[NineThePuma]

So, anyone else in PBE want to test out if the new champ's hidden passive? Just give me a call.

If you're still looking to do so, I'm on the PBE today.

[Kairaven]

Hmmm....I wonder if anyone's ever tried AP Rammus for a Powerball-Tremors nuke?

[Eldariel]

Hmmm....I wonder if anyone's ever tried AP Rammus for a Powerball-Tremors nuke?

Yes. Powerball actually has a really good ratio (1.0) and Tremors isn't bad so it's borderline viable but you need to be tanky enough so it's more like APMumu kinda build where you get tanky AP items (Rylai's much worse on him than Mummy tho) and Cap if you far enough ahead.

[dgnslyr]

Does his Defensive Ball Curl proc Rylais? I heard a short while ago here that it did, but I haven't tried it for myself. If it did, it makes AP Rammus slightly more workable.

[ex cathedra]

Basically, flat and % pen don't synergize only when flat pen is closer to the amount of target's armor, which with just items and the % mastery is near 100 armor. For everyone else, the flat pen may not be valuable enough against that much armor, but its value is only enhanced by LW, not diminished.

What you're really seeing is the diminishing value of armor stacking playing out in the flat pen, since the higher armor is, the less a flat adjustment is worth, relative to a smaller armor value, both positive(by increasing armor) or negative(by increasing flat pen).

Resistances don't have diminishing values relative to anything but the effective health you would get by combining large amounts of resistances and HP. Each point of armor or MR is worth just as much as the next point or the previous point.

Putting it in terms of % damage seems a little bit misleading to me, and you have to consider things in terms of resource costs. That 20 ArPen is strong early game but once you've got a last whisper you'll only be getting 12 or so actual effective armor pen out of it, compared to the amount of Armor Pen you have with just Last Whisper.

To add to this, anyone with Thornmail is going to be breaching 200 armor, at minimum. Without ArPen, it would take exactly 90% lifesteal to break even against the target. More armor and ArPen mess with the equation, but not enough that 1 bloodthirster is going to 'negate' it.

Is this taking MR into account?

Also, Thornmail is really cheap, at a mere 2k. Since many games don't last long enough for junglers to finish their item builds, that shouldn't be overlooked.

Two chain vests provide 90% of the armor that Thornmail provides for 70% of the price, plus they build into better items with better abilities whose effects aren't contingent on the enemy choosing to attack you.

[sonofzeal]

I just bought Rumble, and... weird mechanic, but kinda fun. I went CDR boots, Kage's, Gunblade, Deathcap, and would have grabbed Abyssal next. I also levelled E->Q->W, for more poke and ability to slow enemies. It worked fairly well, but there's usually ways to improve. Any tips?

[Eldariel]

I just bought Rumble, and... weird mechanic, but kinda fun. I went CDR boots, Kage's, Gunblade, Deathcap, and would have grabbed Abyssal next. I also levelled E->Q->W, for more poke and ability to slow enemies. It worked fairly well, but there's usually ways to improve. Any tips?

Sorc shoes, definitely. He hits the heat limit soon enough anyways, CDR is kinda waste, and MPen is just really strong. Also, he's shortish range so he kinda wants to be fairly tanky; I like Abyssal, Zhonya and Rylai's on him (Rylai's slows with his ult/E/Q are stupid strong).

[tyckspoon]

Yes. Powerball actually has a really good ratio (1.0) and Tremors isn't bad so it's borderline viable but you need to be tanky enough so it's more like APMumu kinda build where you get tanky AP items (Rylai's much worse on him than Mummy tho) and Cap if you far enough ahead.

Rylai's does turn Tremors into a giant slow-field. Cooldown is an annoyance, but there's something to be said for having double the area effected over Mummy Tears- having AP Rammus Tremor-ing in the middle of a group (after hopefully smacking a couple of people with Powerball) sounds like one of those 'ok, we're gonna win this teamfight now, k?' events. And of course it evaporates towers in case you're having trouble pushing.

[sonofzeal]

Sorc shoes, definitely. He hits the heat limit soon enough anyways, CDR is kinda waste, and MPen is just really strong. Also, he's shortish range so he kinda wants to be fairly tanky; I like Abyssal, Zhonya and Rylai's on him (Rylai's slows with his ult/E/Q are stupid strong).

For CDR it's because I found I was often using the same ability back-to-back or close enough. His E especially, with good CDR, seems like a great harass tool. I was laning against Warwick, so closing to melee was just asking to get Q'd and mauled, but plinking him with E's every few seconds seemed good and wasn't contributing that much to my Heat. If I'd been spamming all his skills sure, but simply W-ing repeatedly on a long run, or E-ing repeatedly in a skirmish, wasn't causing too much heat and benefited quite a bit from CDR.

[Eldariel]

For CDR it's because I found I was often using the same ability back-to-back or close enough. His E especially, with good CDR, seems like a great harass tool. I was laning against Warwick, so closing to melee was just asking to get Q'd and mauled, but plinking him with E's every few seconds seemed good and wasn't contributing that much to my Heat. If I'd been spamming all his skills sure, but simply W-ing repeatedly on a long run, or E-ing repeatedly in a skirmish, wasn't causing too much heat and benefited quite a bit from CDR.

The E just does more damage with Sorcs tho. It's generally worth more since especially in teamfights and actual engagements you're going to overheat quite fast.

[sonofzeal]

The E just does more damage with Sorcs tho. It's generally worth more since especially in teamfights and actual engagements you're going to overheat quite fast.

Mmm, I can see that. I still think some degree of CDR is good, especially to get that ult up more often since its heat-less. And even Overheating isn't that bad - if your last skill was Flamethrower, you've now got massive melee-range beatdowns for the next few seconds, and you still have summoner spells to get you out of trouble. I'm not saying Overheating can't be dangerous, but doing it intentionally helped me secure at least one kill in the game I was in.

I'd definitely want MPen too though, which is why Abyssal was on my list. ...perhaps I could get MPen from boots and that little bit of CDR from Deathfire?