The Culture v's 40kverse

[thorgrim29]

like in mass effect 2 where Joker is still better at piloting then EDI because he's unpredictable in a way that AIs aren't

[Oracle_Hunter]

Which is why the answer is applied physics /= warfare; they are not the same nor are they even similar in execution and a non-intuitive AI is definitely better suited to the first than the second.

Since when are Minds non-intuitive? I thought they were True Intelligences

Actually, I wasn't referring to RTS games but the military wargames. It is true that current wargames are run as mock battles but do you know what's even better than a mock battle? Simulating a battlefield and all the soldiers in it. Do you know what Minds can do? Exactly that. Do you know what humans cannot do? Run elaborate simulations that perfectly mimic the minds and reactions of other people.

* * *

I've got to admit I didn't think it would be so hard to convince folks that being able to simulate a war multiple times in multiple ways is going to be a good thing. That said, I'm glad everyone is so generous with reading lists

[comicshorse]

Since when are Minds non-intuitive? I thought they were True Intelligences

Actually, I wasn't referring to RTS games but the military wargames. It is true that current wargames are run as mock battles but do you know what's even better than a mock battle? Simulating a battlefield and all the soldiers in it. Do you know what Minds can do? Exactly that. Do you know what humans cannot do? Run elaborate simulations that perfectly mimic the minds and reactions of other people.
I

That is the problem, in war the Minds do not have sufficient information to perfectly model how others will react. This is esxactly where the intuitive factor comes in ( as I understand it anyway)

I've got to admit I didn't think it would be so hard to convince folks that being able to simulate a war multiple times in multiple ways is going to be a good thing.

Not saying its not a good thing, just saying its not everything

I'm glad everyone is so generous with reading lists

You're welcome

[Tyndmyr]

Yup, these Minds are clearly inferior when it comes to such complex subjects as warfare

Look, I've been military. I'm also now the sort of person who hangs out with lots of terribly geeky people professionally...and theoretical physicists are pretty high up there.

The overlap between the two groups does not seem terribly high, and I see absolutely no reason to assume that one skill would imply the other.

Since when are Minds non-intuitive? I thought they were True Intelligences

Intelligent does not mean "just like a human". This is especially true in sci fi books.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Of course not, warfare is far more difficult to simulate than an entire Universe with novel physical laws. This is why there are tons of universal emulators these days and zero battlefield simulators.

Well so help me it would follow logic that a complete simulation of the universe would have to be more complex then the universe which poses a certain problem. So I would imagine that these simulated universes are more limited in scope.

Also from I'd imagine certain point of view simulating say a galaxy can be less challenging then predicting a single person. Afterall certain masses of certain marterials plus Einstein and Newton and you have a model galaxy based on known information. The problem with people is that unlike a hydrogen atom people have a distressing ability to be different from one example to the next.

Unless the Culture has omni-species psychohistory (which is not implied by their other tech) they lack the data and methodology to simply simulate everything. Especailly considering that they any enemy of threat will almost surely have some tech parity and quite possibly run models of their own. Play I know you know enough and it pays to have somebody else around to consider that someone added the Iocaine poison to both wine glasses just by random slyness.

And for of course given that their is no prejudice against AI a complete simulation would be by nature creation of another person entitled the the same rights as anyone else. The Culture's Minds may well have capability but refrain out of ethical reasons.

[MLai]

Running a hypothetical universe simulation with new emergent physics and in 12 dimensions means playing with new emergent physics. It does not mean simulating the untold gadzillions of worlds with sentient specieses and simulating every single sentient individual on these worlds.

Theoretical physics models --> Computers are good at.
Anticipation without basis on exact models --> Computers are not good at. Even sentient computers.

Ballistics physics modelling != Strategic theatre modelling
================================================== =======

Discussion on Minds:
So if Minds are sentient, learning, and adaptive... Why shouldn't they be able to match human anticipation? Here's my take...

(1) If Minds are learning and adaptive (unlike RTS AIs), that means that aspect of their function would be modelled on organic intelligence. It means as they "update their models" by learning, they prioritize their various patterns of thinking for subsequent functions. If they don't do this, then their sentience would become horribly inefficient; humans do this every single instant of their lives.
(2) Because of #1, it means functions which get less "practice" would become weaker than functions which get regular "practice."
(3) Unlike humans, Minds have exact models (for predictable things like physics) always at their fingertips. It is a secure and comfortable function. They like it. They get tons of "practice" with it. So that's their preferred way of "thinking."
(4) They don't get nearly as much "practice" with human-pattern-thinking.

[Parra]

Why shouldn't they be able to match human anticipation?

They can and they do.

Is every Human capable of the same anticipation as every other or do some have a better instinct for it than others?
Its the same deal with Minds (and Drones). There is never an exact population given, but Minds are thought to number in the hundreds of thousands, whereas pan-Humans number in the trillions.
Even then the number of Pan-Humans capable of the intuitive anticipation to be useful to the Minds numbers in the dozens.

What people seem to forget is that Minds are not infallible and they like to do things by committee, what with that being the Cultures thing and all.

[MLai]

Well obviously I was referring to the best of human anticipation. And that's what the Culture-objectors are implicitly referring to as well.

[Shadow of the Sun]

I think Oracle Hunter is missing a major point here.

He's asking why the Culture uses human generals instead of just letting the Minds do it all, even though they can.

Because the human generals want too.

No-one in the Culture can be forced to do something, and if there is something that they can do and they wish to do so, then no-one can stop them, either, provided that it is not doing harm, like murder, or setting oneself up as a god on a low tech planet. If you want to do that, you've got very good VR.

The agents of Special Circumstances are agents because they chose to be, in one way or another. Could the Minds manage without them? Probably. But the agents of Special Circumstances are a useful resource. Say you've got a land war on a planet in some backwater part of the galaxy. The Minds could completely control the battlefield, true. But suppose that a ship can't be there due to diplomatic reasons, or because they want to distance themselves from the events?

A human agent - a very skilled one, I mean - can do a perfectly adequate job for the Minds' purposes without the diplomatic tension, and wants do to so.

As for Oracle Hunter's other objection, that the Minds can do anything a human can do, and better:

There are a number of things I enjoy. Running, for example, or playing guitar, or drawing, or writing, or maths.

In each of these fields, there are people who greatly outstrip me in facility of these abilities. In fact, I would go so far to say that there is nothing that I can do that someone else can't do better.

But I still do those things, because they give me pleasure. I try to be the best I can be, and if that measures up to those who are the best in the field, I'm satisfied, but it's not my main motivation.

There's a similar relationship between the humans and drones of the Culture and the Minds. The gap is vaster, to be sure, but the principle remains the same.

Also, it's worth noting that the Minds are not, and have never been, infallible. Their predictions are often correct, but not always, even though they have their immense intellect, because the real world isn't something that can always be accurately predicted, and this is on all levels, from nano to macro. Chaos theory and all that. The Minds can predict better than I can, or you can, but not perfectly. The Referers, who are organic beings that can predict at a level akin to that of a Mind, do not do so so much out of innate facility, although that is part of it, as much as chance. With 30 trillion people, someone's gotta be right most of the time due to probability.

I know that you're not particularly interested in reading the novels, Oracle_Hunter, or you, Waterbear, but if I could suggest you read just one to understand what life in the Culture would be like, it'd be Look To Windward, for two reasons. First, the story focuses on a character who lives within the Culture, but is not originally from it- said character has voiced almost all of the concerns you two have; whether the novel resolves them is up to you. Second, the set-piece of the story is a spectacular failure on the part of the Minds.

Peace.

[Urpriest]

Another important point to make: presumably a culture that can perfect drugs and VR to the extent the Culture has can also perfect GUIs. A human should be just as good at using a VR battle/strategy simulator as a Mind.

Expertise in theoretical physics is mostly about familiarity and comfort with the material. If it's largely a dead art and humans don't have the spare processing capacity to dedicate to it on a personal level, it makes sense that it is largely a habit of Minds rather than humans. A human could simulate exotic physics using VR, but they wouldn't have the cultural background that makes such speculation fun or of interest to other speculators.

[jseah]

I simply cannot work up the motivation to fill in all the retcons for fluff. Someone else can do that if you want. I'll just continue as if the Eldar had acted in-character, take it as an advisory from the Black Council.

Can I ask for more details about the Infinity Circuits on the Eldar Craftworlds? Because the Culture can manufacture souls out of thin air, duplicating Eldar is easy enough.
Obviously, it sounds like the Eldar might have a thing that can store souls and create a Sublimed entity from enough of them. Which the Culture would be very interested in (although they would obviously decline to power the Eldar ones, if only because they don't want to replace Chaos gods with Eldar gods)

Part 3.5 continued - Culture vs IoM Tactics

Spoiler

Show

Starry Banner - Culture GCU enroute to Sol
1ly - Crossed the outer edges of the asteroids associated with the central star.

IoM - One of the Psykers tasked with defending Sol
He paused with a spoonful of omelette just outside his mouth, ignoring the guards that accompanied psykers nervously pointing their guns at him. The alarm sent through the Warp was rarely used.
The intruder was incredibly fast, and the Warp signature was weak. It was not an IoM vessel that somehow forgot to file its Sol approach permit, there weren't ANY psykers or in fact anything remotely more Warp-sensitive than human standard on board.
Also, the intruder was further out than anything using Warp travel would appear anyway. In fact, it had entered at the edge of the detection range which implied it had dropped out of the Warp even further out.

The Warp let him realize this all in a fraction of a second. But before he could even react, the intruder was already crossing Pluto orbit. The thing was travelling faster than light! It wasn't a Warp driven vessel! It was an FTL ship that did not use the Warp!

By the time he had got over his shock, a second or two, the ship was already decelerating around Neptune. The maneuverability and acceleration it display was too insane. That sort of speed implied the ship was travelling at close to a thousand C and could decelerate from that to a complete stop in a few seconds?!

He lashed out with the Warp almost on instinct, and could feel virtually every other psyker in Sol who wasn't in the Choir do the same.

Starry Banner - Culture GCU enroute to Sol - 5 seconds later
External hacking attempt deflected. Source unknown. The humans are displaying erratic psychological profiles but it does not appear to match Chaos contamination.

Going to combat status. All unneccessary simulation routines stopped.

Guess: There may be a new type of Chaos in Sol? Certainly the IoM Warp travel is slow enough that it is a possibility...
*travel simulation start*
Conclusion: If Sol had fallen to a new type of Chaos, the systems we originated in would receive the news in two weeks at best due to Astropaths, one of which existed in IoM records on the Forge World.
Rating: unlikely considering that the IoM is experienced at fighting Chaos and by records, Sol is the most heavily defended system in the entire IoM. Chaos invasions are unlikely to end the battle swiftly enough for the word to not have reached the Culture's area of investigation.

Guess: an FTL attack, probably Warp based, from the IoM defenses is firing at us.
Objection: Our approach is too fast for their light-based sensors to detect
Counter: They have an FTL sensor that can pierce our stealth
Rating: Possible, implies new IoM technology finding

<...>

Course of action: Exit the system and test their range. Indirect observation methods might be able to reveal some information about this.

IoM - The same psyker
A few seconds later, he finally put the spoonful of omelete in his mouth. The intruder had disappeared back into interstellar space, displaying the same agility and speed that it had before.

He didn't, personally, think that the warp attack had driven them off. Of course, the rest of Sol would be on high guard for the next year and there would be a few ships sent out to investigate.

But for now, he might as well finish his lunch.

Starry Banner - 1 day later - A few lightyears away from Sol
Forced to reload all the citizens from backup. None of them survived the effects of the attack, which seems to rewire organic brains to cause psychosis and delusions. Many drones had spontaneously shut down or malfunctioned and had to also be restored from backup.
All programmed devices and AI intelligences are conducting self and cross checks to ensure integrity. Mind system check... clear.

IoM vessels were seen by long range telescope without attacking or being attacked, therefore, it is assessed as likely that the IoM is still in control of Sol. Some IoM mobilization of space forces were noted.

1 CAM missile launcher fabricated as insurance. Assessments of IoM technology indicate that a single launcher should be enough to deal with any military threat.

The humanoids are... annoyed, but they have been persuaded to take the perspective of the IoM. We did not anticipate being spotted.

A ship vote was recorded at 90% in favour of trying again. An autonomous drone fitted with an FTL engine and basic effector/teleportation devices was sent towards the Sol system on a low speed flyby, to no reaction of the defenses at the original range we were attacked.

This drone managed to get past Neptune orbit and passed Jupiter orbit before self-destructing due to an outside attempt at exerting control. The exact range of detection is unknown but given the fast initial response and the faster responses expected when forewarned, it is likely that Jupiter is the range of detection of an autonomous drone.

A second drone was sent, with an effector system that mimicked our ship's profile to 99.9% fidelity to all outside observations and this drone also got within Jupiter distance before self-destructing. Additional systems were compromised and further autonomous drone missions were deemed too likely to be taken over by the IoM.

This is a puzzling problem. The IoM detected our ship at much further distances than the relatively slow drones, and the emissions profile of the drones did not appear to change their detection range. The sensor they are using utilizes a principle we are unaware of.
Connection: The Warp?
Objection: The IoM is paranoid about Chaos and psyker use of the Warp is dangerous and hunted down by the IoM zealously. Would they dare to use a dangerous and unstable technique in their home system that appears to be of great significance, if not civilizational importance?
Counter: They have a method of containing the risk from Chaos. *Priority Investigation*

One day later
A 200:1 intelligence Drone citizen volunteered to attempt a penetration into the Sol system. A backup was made, additional safeties and internal checks installed. Self-destruct in triplicate. Constant FTL internal monitor link to this Ship's Mind.
A more capable ship was prepared. No weapons other than effectors and nanobot swarm. While not normally offensive weapons, IoM assessments indicate they have no defense against effectors and nanobots.

A flight path to avoid IoM vessels, assumed hostile military, was planned. The drone will investigate Titan, what appears to be a large military outpost that is in opposition to Earth. A hop across to Earth would be easy from there and only a single payload of nanobots (replication enabled) will be sufficient for data gathering. Suicidal action safety, removed.

One minute later
The craft reached Titan orbit successfully and effector-dropped a payload of nanobots despite being attacked just past Neptune orbit. The strength of the attack recorded was much lower and the systems compensated for the random intrusions easily. (the attack appears to have patterns with dimensionality <...>)

As it left Titan orbit, the Drone AI came under increasingly stronger attacks that had to be warded off by this Mind's direct control through the FTL link. It managed to drop a payload on Mars before the self-destruct triggered when the FTL drive control was compromised (found only by a specific check; original checking systems compromised as well)

The spy nanobots appear to go undetected although we are too far away to get a detailed signal from only one payload. Signal repeaters are being built by nanobots inserted into nearby asteroids and moons via unguided FTL packages. These also appear to go undetected.
<- All future missions are to use nanobot swarms inserted via "cold" unguided FTL packages. The criteria for detection range appear to be the number and complexity of AI on the intruding craft. Perhaps organics count as well.
This fits with the theory that the Warp is sensitive to sentience, although why this should be is still unknown.

Repeating stations should be complete in one day.

It's pretty amazing what you can figure out about unrelated things (like the Warp) just by probing IoM defences.

Also Culture has nanobots. They look at warships and see no nanobot defence and go "lol".

Part 3.5 continued

Spoiler

Show

Ulthwe Seer Council
He looked at the runestones again and tried to discern the future paths. There was one puzzling vision and he was trying to make sense of it. Normally, far-future visions did not have the resolution to see small events and described the future in broad strokes.

This vision was of a chess board. Sort of. It looked like no chessboard of any race he had saw before however, and every move of the pieces bore the weight of billions of souls. It was so psychically active that he could almost feel the weight of that movement.

He checked it with the others in the council and they confirmed his vision was right. It was down the branch where the Eldar contacted the new player mentioned in the Black Council's advisory.

He cast the runestones again and watched the motions of the pieces. It was hard to see any pattern in it.
Then another seer found a different arrangement of chessboard down a different path. It was at a different time and was also on the side of the branch where they contacted the new player.

He contemplated whether he was seeing a metaphor for the Eldar game of chess with other races. But visions didn't give metaphors.
Then another was found, also in that branch. Something of great importance was happening down those branches and their length in the space of time was incredibly short. They had the sense that these "chess events" were happening in less than a second.
Over a period of days, the seers uncovered a series of "chess events" at various times across branches. Some branches had them, some had multiple, some did not. All of the ones that had the "chess events" seemed to lead to better futures in the short term.

The "chess event" closest to the present was two weeks in the future. A branch where Ulthwe's Craftworld found a webway gate on a Crone world and moved the entire Craftworld to the position of the new player. That discovery alone would be one of immense importance by itself and they were already making plans to capture that world. But showing the entire Craftworld to the new player who could easily destroy it? That was presposterous, vision of safety or not.
And they informed that player of the "chess events". That last bit seemed to be important.
Also, down that branch... there were no more branches. None at all. Ulthwe still existed, one of the seers had seen it running from a Chaos attack before the attack disintegrated for no reason at all.

They debated for a long time as the Craftworld crept towards the location of the gate.

*Global Victory Condition Detected*

Minds are smart enough to figure out a time travelling communication protocol.

With future sight, it becomes possible to send messages into the past, they just need to be high enough fidelity (aka. psychically important) for the visions to be able to concentrate on it.
The Culture can manufacture souls from nowhere. Psychically important chess pieces are easily with strong AI controlled nanobot chesspieces.

An Eldar-Culture alliance would not only have future prediction and the ability to send messages into the past (which is stupidly gamebreaking when applied to Mind's processing power).
The Eldar's Craftworlds are made of psychically active material which is probably a better Chaos defence than geller fields, meaning the Culture's Chaos problems are severely muted. The Culture can literally spawn Eldar soulstones by the truckload, which means unlimited Eldar wraithbone constructs and the Infinity Circuit can be powered pretty much on demand. The Craftworld itself can be expanded easily by the Culture.

And this is assuming no tech sharing. Tech sharing leads to total victory in scarily short times.

[Eldan]

And at least some Eldar might be convinced to join the Culture. It is basically what they had before the fall, but (probably) better.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Nice. It should be noted that Crone Worlds are all firmly within The Eye of Terror meaning that they are solidly in Chaos control. No Craftworld would dare re-enter the Eye of Terror. The Infinity Circuit is the repository of the souls of every Eldar whose Spirit Stone was implanted in it after death. These souls stay there forever and can be consulted at will by Farseers and can even be implanted in Wraith Constructs (or Exarch Armor) to fight again -- although it is considered disrespectful and only to be used in the greatest of emergencies. Of course, this being the WH40K Universe, those sorts of emergencies some up a lot.

The Eldar God of the Dead (to be) is Ynnead and he is more of a cult than a canon fact. One of the major problems with "soul scumming" this God will embody the Eldar Virtues which means that mass-cloning Eldar and then killing them isn't something the Eldar are going to approve of. Ideally every Eldar soul put into an Infinity Circuit would have traveled several Paths over hundreds of Earth-years before dying in a state of enlightened devotion to the Eldar race. The last time the Eldar made a God this way they kind of screwed it up and imbued the God with all the carnal vices in existence.

Additionally, there is non-Warp FTL in WH40k, but it is solidly the domain of the Necrons. If a Sanctioned Psyker saw a FTL ship inbound and reported it, the High Lords of Terra would assume a Necron invasion and mobilize the Imperial Fists. And, of course, Ordo Xenos.

Finally, any Astropath on Terra can communicate with any other Astropath in the Galaxy in an astonishingly short time.

*Global Victory Condition Detected*

Minds are smart enough to figure out a time travelling communication protocol.

With future sight, it becomes possible to send messages into the past, they just need to be high enough fidelity (aka. psychically important) for the visions to be able to concentrate on it.
The Culture can manufacture souls from nowhere. Psychically important chess pieces are easily with strong AI controlled nanobot chesspieces.

An Eldar-Culture alliance would not only have future prediction and the ability to send messages into the past (which is stupidly gamebreaking when applied to Mind's processing power).
The Eldar's Craftworlds are made of psychically active material which is probably a better Chaos defence than geller fields, meaning the Culture's Chaos problems are severely muted. The Culture can literally spawn Eldar soulstones by the truckload, which means unlimited Eldar wraithbone constructs and the Infinity Circuit can be powered pretty much on demand. The Craftworld itself can be expanded easily by the Culture.

And this is assuming no tech sharing. Tech sharing leads to total victory in scarily short times.

The real issue here is that Eldar Runeseeing has nowhere the fidelity to permit cross-time messaging. Even if The Culture re-arranged the stars to spell out a message it is unlikely that the Eldar would be able to read it through Runestones. Thing of them more as I-Ching than Dream Quests.

* * *

Also, when is Tzeetch going to show up with an offer to explain Chaos to The Culture and show them how to beat Slaanesh? 'cause that's what I'm waiting for

[jseah]

I got the impression from reading the WH40K wikia on Eldar Craftworlds that Ulthwe was right next to the Eye.

Soul cloning would appear to the Eldar as a Spirit stone appearing out of nowhere. Yes, it is just mass fabricating Eldar and killing them (they actually just to cease to exist apart from the Spirit Stone), but that's just how the Culture runs.
They work too fast for the Eldar to even notice though. To anyone not a Mind or a specialized Drone, effector work like that would be essentially instant.

The real issue here is that Eldar Runeseeing has nowhere the fidelity to permit cross-time messaging. Even if The Culture re-arranged the stars to spell out a message it is unlikely that the Eldar would be able to read it through Runestones. Thing of them more as I-Ching than Dream Quests.

* * *

Also, when is Tzeetch going to show up with an offer to explain Chaos to The Culture and show them how to beat Slaanesh? 'cause that's what I'm waiting for

Eh...
That should have been mentioned when I first posted the assumptions of Eldar future sight? I definitely explicitly mentioned visions and control of which future path they are seeing.
I might just retcon the entire second Eldar part out of existence.


The thing about Chaos is that the Culture are on the verge of a breakthrough in blocking Chaos. A good portion of the citizens have consented or even asked for continuous mind-reading and the dream conduit for corruption would be found out more or less instantly.

Once that is solved, all the organics can be adjusted to have no dreams at all or have the dreams intercepted. (its not like they actually remember dreams anyway; and the Drones can be adjusted to not need sleep or not dream if they still want to; and Minds don't sleep).

Also, one ship has plated itself with geller fields, which ought to stop physical side contaminations, which would be found out rather quickly too.

After that, there's not much chance for communication with Chaos anymore.

This was going to be the first week in part 4. A formal state of war against Chaos was going to be the third week. (currently Eldar Craftworld contact was going to be the second week, but I'm still wobbling on that)


At the Culture tech level, open warfare against an inferior foe like Chaos or Orks takes a very different form than what they used against the Idirans. I have a few ideas about that one.

Its fun playing the Culture. I can just dream up some method, and go "... yeah, they can do that; it's easy too". Like the non-guided FTL packages to dodge psyker detection. (Culture on wikipedia is mentioned to be able to put FTL drives on baseball sized objects... =O)

EDIT: it's like playing with permanent Cheat mode. XD

[Forum Explorer]

Additionally, there is non-Warp FTL in WH40k, but it is solidly the domain of the Necrons. If a Sanctioned Psyker saw a FTL ship inbound and reported it, the High Lords of Terra would assume a Necron invasion and mobilize the Imperial Fists. And, of course, Ordo Xenos.


Also, when is Tzeetch going to show up with an offer to explain Chaos to The Culture and show them how to beat Slaanesh? 'cause that's what I'm waiting for

I think the Retcrons changed it so the Necrons now use their own form the the Webway. Making the only non-warp FTL owned by the Tyranids.


Cool new chapter as always. For the Record I think nanites exist but only as part of the Dark Age of Humanity so are mostly considered Heresy at this point. So yeah. They wouldn't be found out side of Necrons.

Ulthwe is outside the Eye and very close to it. But it is outside the Eye. All Crone worlds are inside the Eye. 'Normal' Eldar don't go there but a particularly daring Ranger/Pirate or Dark Eldar might try.

Can the Culture manufacture souls though? After all in their own universe souls literally don't exist. Anyways I don't think it would work as it seems that much of the soul's power comes from experience and emotions felt.

Just creating masses of Eldar would work fine though.

What the Culture would need to worry about is actually meeting a Chaos cultist. The Culture doesn't seem the type to kill on site and that can give the cultist the chance to communicate and slowly convince Culture members to 'just give it a shot'. Which can be devastating depending on the who it is.

[Water_Bear]

I really like the idea of a legitimately rational sci-fi civilization trying to deal with the WH40K universe, but I feel like your Fic here isn't really "getting" the idea of GrimDark.

Chaos is basically the philosophical equivalent to Entropy. You can fight it, you can hold it back for thousands or even millions of years, but you cannot ever truly defeat it. Preventing people from ever being tempted by Chaos... is not something which should ever happen in a 40K cross-over fic. Manufacturing souls without summoning / creating armies of angry Daemon Primarchs or shredding your own mind is another no-no.

The key thing to remember is that in 40K belief is absolute and facts are mutable. The nature of the Warp is that there is no reality, no space, no time, only infinite power and the countless Daemons and Psykers which fight for it. There is room for science in the Materium, but the Immaterium cannot be analyzed by means which rely on math and logic because those things simply do not exist there.

I would love to see an "Elephant Versus the Whale" kind of story though; the Culture has mastery of the physics of the Materium, the Chaos Gods and the Emperor are lords of the Immaterium, and their conflict ought to be literally epic in scale. Respecting both canons, yadda yadda.

(Also, can Minds/Drones communicate with Machine Spirits? Do they even have Machine Spirits?)

[The Glyphstone]

What the Culture would need to worry about is actually meeting a Chaos cultist. The Culture doesn't seem the type to kill on site and that can give the cultist the chance to communicate and slowly convince Culture members to 'just give it a shot'. Which can be devastating depending on the who it is.

Particularly if the Minds let it go on for a bit. They're obviously (and mostly deservedly) assured that nothing in this galaxy poses any military threat to them. If they're actually presented with a genuine Chaos cultist, a definitive 'point source' for the nebulous Outside Context Problem that Chaos has been up to this point, they might stay hands-off just to see what will happen, in a how-much-harm-could-it-cause sort of way.

Heck, the end result of all this might be a Chaos-Culture 'alliance' (more like benign parasitism), rather than an Eldar-Culture alliance. While Chaos is malevolent and self-serving, ultimately it still needs the existence of humanity/humanoid societies to perpetuate itself. If the Minds can render themselves Chaos-proof and able to block involuntary corruption, preserving the true essential element of Culture society, Chaos-worship might just end up yet another potential leisure prospect or recreational activity, if one that you can't really give up once you've started it.

I really like the idea of a legitimately rational sci-fi civilization trying to deal with the WH40K universe, but I feel like your Fic here isn't really "getting" the idea of GrimDark.

I think he knows that and is overriding it. It's like the 40K versus Gurren Lagann argument from before - the real fight isn't between the galaxy-scale robots and the gothic space cathedrals, but between the two presiding themes of grimdark futility against hot-blooded determination and willpower...they're mutually incompatible, so whichever universe's "rules" take precedence will ultimately reign supreme. Here, it's fairly evident that as the story is being written from the Culture's perspective, the "SCIENCE!" paradigm of the Cultureverse is being put forth as pre-eminent. They're the 'protagonists' of this piece, so to speak.

[Brother Oni]

I think the Retcrons changed it so the Necrons now use their own form the the Webway. Making the only non-warp FTL owned by the Tyranids.

How do the Tau get about then or is all their travel exclusively sub-light speed?

[The Glyphstone]

How do the Tau get about then or is all their travel exclusively sub-light speed?

Tau FTL is weird. From what I remember of the last Tau codex, they "skim" the warp in a way that's best likened to skipping flat stones across a lake...not ever really entering the Warp itself so much as using the realspace/Immaterium boundary layer for propulsion. Slower than true Warp travel, but still FTL.

[Water_Bear]

Tau FTL is weird. From what I remember of the last Tau codex, they "skim" the warp in a way that's best likened to skipping flat stones across a lake...not ever really entering the Warp itself so much as using the realspace/Immaterium boundary layer for propulsion. Slower than true Warp travel, but still FTL.

Didn't they recently test an actual Warp-capable ship though? I remember hearing about that being part of the 3rd Sphere Expansion.

I know the Kroot use stolen Ork FTL and the Tau ought to have enough Gue'vesa to get access to human Psykers and navigational techniques, so there shouldn't be a problem with them cobbling one together. As long as the Air Caste doesn't insist on piloting and the Tau can survive the trip with their wimpy souls it shouldn't be a problem.

I think he knows that and is overriding it. It's like the 40K versus Gurren Lagann argument from before - the real fight isn't between the galaxy-scale robots and the gothic space cathedrals, but between the two presiding themes of grimdark futility against hot-blooded determination and willpower...they're mutually incompatible, so whichever universe's "rules" take precedence will ultimately reign supreme. Here, it's fairly evident that as the story is being written from the Culture's perspective, the "SCIENCE!" paradigm of the Cultureverse is being put forth as pre-eminent. They're the 'protagonists' of this piece, so to speak.

Maybe this is just personal preference, but I think a crossover shouldn't take sides. Obviously the author will like one setting more than the other, but unless it's a "Buffy Summers v Edward Cullen" kind of deal the two canons should be respected to a roughly equal degree.

A good example of what I'm talking about; there was a really good Dr Who / Firefly fic a while back, set post-Serenity, where the Doctor basically just shows up in the middle of the 'Verse and helps the Serenity crew stop a mind-control plot. They could have played it as a "Doctor fixes all the problems" deal; cures the Reavers, stops the Alliance / Blue Sun Corporation from messing with people, heals River, etc. But they didn't; it kept the feel of both series and made the conflict between them the driving force of the narrative.

Of course I can't remember the name...

[Misery Esquire]

How do the Tau get about then or is all their travel exclusively sub-light speed?

They do the really, really oldschool (for humans) "Warp dives", where they briefly enter the warp, and bounce back out a few lightyears ahead.

Also, a note on the Nanobots thing ; if Void Shields are up, they'll likely kill nanobots, just by transdimensional abrasion ; because despite the fact they don't denonate Imperial-style torpedos that are passing through, those torpedoes are also sixty meters long and have armour plating.

[Aotrs Commander]

Maybe this is just personal preference, but I think a crossover shouldn't take sides. Obviously the author will like one setting more than the other, but unless it's a "Buffy Summers v Edward Cullen" kind of deal the two canons should be respected to a roughly equal degree.

But when the two are mutally exclusive on a fundemental level, you just can't. By the nature of Chaos being fundementally "oh no, you can't win" and Lagann, is, to my limited knowledge, explicitly "oh yes, we can." There's no meaningful way to quantify that sort of conflict - it's all about preference.

You can be more objective when there are observable, quantifiable results to look at (or even better, numerical ones), but when espousing infinite verses infinite...

(For the record, I don't believe for even a heartbeat the Chaos gods are truly that invincible; the first and most glaring point is if they were, the Emperor wouldn't concern them at all: yet if what I've read is correct, if the Emperor were to regain his full power, he'd be able to beat the Chaos gods to death with their own internal organs (which he would make them have specifically for the purpose...) Or the C'Tan, which were supposedly on a similar level... The whole "chaos will always win and corrupt everyone" sorta falls apart in 40K, where you categorically have powers that are equal.)

[Tavar]

I'm pretty sure there are visions and the like as well. The Fidelity issue would be difficult, but it might be possible. Probably too resource intensive to be practical, though.

Having it be an Exodite world, rather than Crone, would solve matters nicely.

As for the Good end...current thought is that Yeand will only be awakened once the Last Eldar Dies, so it's not really a good end from their perspective, more of a grey. It's the best they have though.

[The Glyphstone]

Didn't they recently test an actual Warp-capable ship though? I remember hearing about that being part of the 3rd Sphere Expansion.

Maybe this is just personal preference, but I think a crossover shouldn't take sides. Obviously the author will like one setting more than the other, but unless it's a "Buffy Summers v Edward Cullen" kind of deal the two canons should be respected to a roughly equal degree.

But when the two are mutally exclusive on a fundemental level, you just can't. By the nature of Chaos being fundementally "oh no, you can't win" and Lagann, is, to my limited knowledge, explicitly "oh yes, we can." There's no meaningful way to quantify that sort of conflict - it's all about preference.

I definitely agree with you overall, but as Aotrs Commander pointed out, sometimes you just have an immovable object vs. unstoppable force problem. 40K's overriding paradigm is 'Everyone loses eventually, including Chaos' - because that is Chaos's ultimate problem, if it wins it'll end up losing, even if only by destroying itself...so when pitted against any other setting, that setting either ends up being enveloped and succumbing to the Grimdark, or it brings its own, more optimistic attitude with it and peels back the darkness.

[Tavar]

Didn't they recently test an actual Warp-capable ship though? I remember hearing about that being part of the 3rd Sphere Expansion.

I know the Kroot use stolen Ork FTL and the Tau ought to have enough Gue'vesa to get access to human Psykers and navigational techniques, so there shouldn't be a problem with them cobbling one together. As long as the Air Caste doesn't insist on piloting and the Tau can survive the trip with their wimpy souls it shouldn't be a problem.

Remember, to utilize Human type FTL, you seem to need a Navigator/something similar. They might very well lack those, and still have psykers.

A good example of what I'm talking about; there was a really good Dr Who / Firefly fic a while back, set post-Serenity, where the Doctor basically just shows up in the middle of the 'Verse and helps the Serenity crew stop a mind-control plot. They could have played it as a "Doctor fixes all the problems" deal; cures the Reavers, stops the Alliance / Blue Sun Corporation from messing with people, heals River, etc. But they didn't; it kept the feel of both series and made the conflict between them the driving force of the narrative.

Of course I can't remember the name...

The Man With No Name(also goes by A Life Less Extraordinary)/

[Oracle_Hunter]

I definitely agree with you overall, but as Aotrs Commander pointed out, sometimes you just have an immovable object vs. unstoppable force problem. 40K's overriding paradigm is 'Everyone loses eventually, including Chaos' - because that is Chaos's ultimate problem, if it wins it'll end up losing, even if only by destroying itself...so when pitted against any other setting, that setting either ends up being enveloped and succumbing to the Grimdark, or it brings its own, more optimistic attitude with it and peels back the darkness.

So, while true at some level, there is an issue with making it seem too one-sided.

For example, I felt that The Culture's panic at facing Chaos-possession in Part 2 was a good touch. Admittedly, Chaos possession is a bit more insidious and I'm not exactly sure what would have caused a Ship to suicide but it had tension. Compare to the latest outing in which a Ship rides into Terra orbit, gets rebuffed by the massed might of the strongest Psykers in the Imperium and promptly begins treating it as a fun science experiment. No, there is no chance that the physical forces of the IoM would be able to scratch the paint on a Culture Ship but c'mon, having low Alpha (or high Beta) Psykers launch an assault on a single Ship can cause portions of it to get sucked into a demon-filled Warp.

Basically, I'd prefer for the narrative to play up the strengths of the "weaker" side even if the writer clearly favors one over the other. Makes it a more interesting read, if nothing else.

[1dominator]

Minds on the scale of the culture sentient AIs attract the attention every single abomination in the warp from the whole galaxy over and get their minds eaten?

There is also the fact that most things do not expect the fundamental rules or reality to suddenly change just because they've crossed into another part of space. Just how long would it take them to catch on to psionics and the fact that their is a whole other dimension filled with tentacled things just behind realspace?

Of course not, warfare is far more difficult to simulate than an entire Universe with novel physical laws. This is why there are tons of universal emulators these days and zero battlefield simulators.

If we could simulate the universe war would be very small potatoes.

[Forum Explorer]

So, while true at some level, there is an issue with making it seem too one-sided.

For example, I felt that The Culture's panic at facing Chaos-possession in Part 2 was a good touch. Admittedly, Chaos possession is a bit more insidious and I'm not exactly sure what would have caused a Ship to suicide but it had tension. Compare to the latest outing in which a Ship rides into Terra orbit, gets rebuffed by the massed might of the strongest Psykers in the Imperium and promptly begins treating it as a fun science experiment. No, there is no chance that the physical forces of the IoM would be able to scratch the paint on a Culture Ship but c'mon, having low Alpha (or high Beta) Psykers launch an assault on a single Ship can cause portions of it to get sucked into a demon-filled Warp.

Basically, I'd prefer for the narrative to play up the strengths of the "weaker" side even if the writer clearly favors one over the other. Makes it a more interesting read, if nothing else.

What I would have liked is for it to play up the trauma of the psyker attacks. It would hurt alot to have your mind twisted and ripped apart like that. But then I don't know enough about the Culture to know if they could just perfectly delete the trauma.

[Parra]

all the organics can be adjusted to have no dreams at all or have the dreams intercepted. (its not like they actually remember dreams anyway;

Actually, from early childhood every Culture Pan-Human have full control of their dreams. They choose to have them or not and can change them to whatever they choose on a whim.
Neither Minds or Drones have nor require dreams (or sleep)

What the Culture would need to worry about is actually meeting a Chaos cultist. The Culture doesn't seem the type to kill on site and that can give the cultist the chance to communicate and slowly convince Culture members to 'just give it a shot'. Which can be devastating depending on the who it is.

If anything, this is the more likely method of Chaos getting a foothold in the Culture imo. That is to say, someone in the Culture would want to give Chaos a try and see what its all about.

No, there is no chance that the physical forces of the IoM would be able to scratch the paint on a Culture Ship but c'mon, having low Alpha (or high Beta) Psykers launch an assault on a single Ship can cause portions of it to get sucked into a demon-filled Warp..

I think it was more that the psykers hasty attack focused on the 'crew' of the ship rather than the ship, and hence the Mind, itself

But then I don't know enough about the Culture to know if they could just perfectly delete the trauma.

Im not sure about the memory of the Trauma itself, but they would have people to help you come to terms with it. As for pain felt, any Culture citizen can choose to feel pain or not.


My opinion on Souls v's Culture mind transferring would be that as far as anything in the 40kverse was concerned, every time a person was revented into a new physical body then a new Soul would be created. Anytime a Culture organic body died, whatever normally happens to Souls in 40kverse happens to it also.

I would but Minds and Drones on par with Machine Spirits in terms of what can and cannot effect them. Maybe on different orders of magnitude, maybe putting most Machine Sprits roughly on par with a good AI (so still 'lesser' than a Drone or Mind) but certainly with some crossover. So a Mind/Drone could use its effectors to influence/control something with a Machine Spirit and if there is any weapon/psyker powers in the 40k verse then it would equally have an effect.

[MLai]

I think it was more that the psykers hasty attack focused on the 'crew' of the ship rather than the ship, and hence the Mind, itself
Im not sure about the memory of the Trauma itself, but they would have people to help you come to terms with it. As for pain felt, any Culture citizen can choose to feel pain or not.

Actually, from the fanfic I think the Mind just described in very understated terms the horrible deaths of the ship's entire organic crew due to the massed psyker mindlash. Brains leaking out of ears, eyeballs exploding, you name it.

Then the Mind just copied every single horribly-died crew member from stored backup (made probably no more than a few hours-days ago). So after a bit of debriefing everyone is back up to speed, and no trauma remembered. Though after having to clean up after their own mutilated corpses, the crew got "annoyed."