A challenge to the playground

[Harry]

Playground you are challenged to defeat all 7 of the Seraphim from the immortals handbook.

You must use a level twenty build, pun pun and the like are not allowed. You and the creature both have a week to prepare, it has as much knowledge of you as you of it.

Oh and it's state block.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.co...7628959329.png

Good luck playground!

Oh and P.s they will be using there abilities in a optimized fashion.

[Gandariel]

If they're gonna use their abilities optimizing, there's little to no way (88th level clerics, Miracle at will, 18 epic spells)

You COULD cast an Ice Assassin of them (or two) and be done with it, though.

Anyway, they have a no-save-become-Good-aligned effect, so either you're good (and don't wanna fight them) or you're not good (and you become good)

[DeusMortuusEst]

If they're gonna use their abilities optimizing, there's little to no way (88th level clerics, Miracle at will, 18 epic spells)

You COULD cast an Ice Assassin of them (or two) and be done with it, though.

Anyway, they have a no-save-become-Good-aligned effect, so either you're good (and don't wanna fight them) or you're not good (and you become good)

And if you want to survive, tippy provides a neat trick:

Be an Illithid Savant. Use Ice Assassin to make an Aleax Psion 20 with True Mind Switch. Order it to True Mind Switch with you. Create an Ice Assassin Aleax of yourself. Order it to let you eat it's brain. Gain it's Ex ability Singular Enemy.

You now have two seperate copies of Singular enemy, each with a specific different enemy (one of which is you). Now the only thing in the entire game that can harm you is backlash damage from your own epic spells. To get around that place a Craft Contingent Temporal Stasis spell on yourself set to activate if you would take Backlash damage. It activates and you are unharmed from the backlash damage, at which point your craft contingent break enchantment goes off and strips off the Temporal Stasis.

Although if the spell has 1 round casting time you can use the power Timeless Body and negate the backlash damage that way.

[Gandariel]

To actually damage them.. Uhm.
You'd need an epic force damage spell.
Barring that, Hulking Hurler!

[DeusMortuusEst]

To actually damage them.. Uhm.
You'd need an epic force damage spell.
Barring that, Hulking Hurler!

Or perhaps that build that uses Tornado throw to throw their foe into the sun, I don't remember how much damage that did. Assuming that we have a sun to throw them into of course.

[Blue1005]

Who actually takes the time to come up with these creatures? It is pretty much impossible. average of 4444 dmg for a breath weapon. To try to build anything would be a futile waste of time.

[molten_dragon]

Playground you are challenged to defeat all 7 of the Seraphim from the immortals handbook.

You must use a level twenty build, pun pun and the like are not allowed. You and the creature both have a week to prepare, it has as much knowledge of you as you of it.

Oh and it's state block.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.co...7628959329.png

Good luck playground!

Oh and P.s they will be using there abilities in a optimized fashion.

If it's using its abilities in even a decently optimized manner, it's going to take something pretty close to pun-pun levels of cheese to take it out. Even if you disregard all its other ridiculous abilities, the thing is an 88th level cleric.

And being immune to non-epic magic will screw up most of the things a cheesy caster could do.

I'm not sure how their magic immunity works (i.e. is it real immunity, or is it simply SR: infinite like most magic immunity). If it's simply infinite spell resistance, then I suppose it's possible that a sufficiently cheesy mailman or hulking hurler build could maybe kill one of them if they could also min/max their initiative to be able to go first, but I seriously doubt even that. An 88th level cleric is going to have ways to protect from that kind of thing.

And the Cosmic String ability makes them impossible to kill permanently anyway unless you are (or can mimic) being 'of greater stature than them'.

[Gandariel]

apparently that book is full of similar creatures. (Check out its Size, it says Macro-Fine, implying that things like Macro-Medium exist.)
Anyway i suppose they're made for being fought by 80-th level charachters, or something.
Fighters doing tens of thousands of damage, wizards slinging multiple epic spells per round, rogues... sneaking?

[Harry]

Come on playground! I'm sure you guys can beat them!

[The Dark Fiddler]

Come on playground! I'm sure you guys can beat them!

You're essentially saying "Beat ~4 level 88 clerics with a bunch of other abilities, but you're not allowed to use anything higher than level 20."

No, I don't think the Playground can.

Edit: Not to mention that the "other abilities" include complete immunity to non-epic magic (opposed to the the type that only applies to spells that allow spell resistance), a no-save ability that instantly pacifies you, a breath weapon that deals minimum damage of 88 and maximum of nearly 9,000, explicitly only being able to be killed by something of equal stature to itself, and a 500 ft. radius of "you die."

[molten_dragon]

apparently that book is full of similar creatures. (Check out its Size, it says Macro-Fine, implying that things like Macro-Medium exist.)
Anyway i suppose they're made for being fought by 80-th level charachters, or something.
Fighters doing tens of thousands of damage, wizards slinging multiple epic spells per round, rogues... sneaking?

Yeah, the immortals handbook is kind of silly. Most of the monsters are just collections of extremely large numbers, and their power levels vary wildly. For example, the neutronium golem, with a CR of something like 9700, is weaker in a lot of ways than the thing the OP posted.

[Harry]

Ok then..... New level cap you can go as high as level 40 and gestalt. (dual prestige classes allowed)

[Wraith]

Epic Level Gestalt Diplomancer/Diplomancer.

Stack everything into Charisma and Persuade, then convince them to fight each other.

[Gandariel]

or level 21 wizard, get a good enough epic spell :P

EDIT: Just read the Neutronium Golem stats... LOL!
CR 9700 is definitely too high, but it's really fun.

[Harry]

Wraith you would need to get inside there aura to do that.....

Oh and gandariel they also level 88 clerics with epic spellcasting. A level 21 wizard isn't enough............

[enderlord99]

Glyphstone, please explain to Harry what the Immortals Handbook actually is.

[Harry]

The Immortals Handbook is not rules. It is the result of putting boxing gloves on an epileptic monkey and letting it pound on a number pad for a few hours, then editing the typos and adding names to stuff, is it not?

[enderlord99]

The Immortals Handbook is not rules. It is the result of putting boxing gloves on an epileptic monkey and letting it pound on a number pad for a few hours, then editing the typos and adding names to stuff, is it not?

If you already know, then why are you issuing this challenge?

[Harry]

Oh because the playground beat that golem, so I thought why not something stronger?

[Laserlight]

"The way to win, is not to play."

[theUnearther]

Oh because the playground beat that golem, so I thought why not something stronger?

The thing is, that golem was noticeably weak. For its challenge rating of course.

But, I'll bite. Sorta.
My character is whatever combination of Wizard, Ur-Priest and Mystic Theurge gets me epic spells on both sides. If I have levels left, they are some Tome of Battle classes for those rare times when it is not worth it to spend a spell. Unless I have enough levels to grab epic psionics too, then I do that instead.

Note that I don't actually know the epic spells rules, so if somebody could be so nice as to quantify the following spells and confirm that this is possible, I'd be very grateful.
My first epic spell gives me an epic bonus to spellcraft. No drawbacks, no backslash, no help required, does not take an action, lasts 24 hours, and it gives the highest bonus that it can give while having the spellcraft DC be something I can hit by taking 10. It lasts all day so I'm doing it out of battle.
The second spell is the same, but the bonus is as high as I can hit while under the effect of the one above. Let's pretend I'm being reasonable and that the bonuses overlap, not stack, though I'm pretty sure there is a way to not do this.
Do the same for each spell until I have only 3 epic spells slots left. If I have manifesting, one of them has to move to psycraft OR the chain starts with psycraft, depending on which side is best for:
My last three spells are "kill something". No save, no resistance, no immunities, no defenses, can't be revived, can't planeshift back from wherever it ended, can't planeshift me to wherever it ended, etc etc etc. They are also nonactions without drawbacks. Also can be targeted remotely I guess, since we were assuming I know about these guys. If I somehow still don't have enough spellcraft to pull this spell off, sprinkle skill-boosting cheese to taste.
So, at some point during the day I take an instant to will myself to be able to will myself to be able to will myself to [...] be able to will those guys dead, and then I will those guys dead.
That burns my epic spells for the day, so I guess I take the rest of the day off.

[Gandariel]

They can be hit only with Divination or Evocation epic spells. (That's fairly restrictive.. )

And they're immune to most energy types.

So i'd go with theUnearther's plan:
1st epic spell => + (as much as i can) Enhancement bonus to spellcraft
2nd epic spell => + (as much as i NOW can) sacred bonus to spellcraft
.....

Plus general optimisation to Spellcraft.

The last epic spell is an Epic evocation spell that deals 15 000 d6 force damage, no save.

For mitigation, i guess i can use my Epic Leadership for a thousand allied casters burning spell slots and XP.


And it's possibly dead.


Another idea would be some sort of infinite damage attack (the trick of Greater arcane fusion containing Greater arcane fusion and a damaging spell, like magic missile :P).

OR, a 1d2 Crusader.
Get cohort to cast Wraithstrike on you, then Wish=>teleport you behind the monster, then attack. 80 touch AC is doable, and you've killed it.



Oh well, actually not, because i can't permanently kill it. And the only ways in which you can "trap" or "imprison" things are NOT evocation or Divination.


So yeah, in conclusion you can't get around the "can't be killed" thing, even if you were able to actually kill it.

[krai]

I'm not clear on if its immunities and resistances would stop this but how about using 7 mirrors of opposition on the 7 seriphim resulting in 28 evil ones that would then kill the originals.

EDIT: I just realized that the anti magic field had 1 more digit than i thought, probably not going to be able to see the mirror 7281 ft away...

[rweird]

Assuming they know you will attack, they'll teleport in and use there destroy you no save if you have less than 88 HD to kill you unless you count it being a SU ability to make it so they wouldn't have it up due to the wording of the antimagic field (doesn't effect your spellcasting), because then they couldn't use any of there powers.

I suppose an Initiate of Mystra with a persisted antimagic field could negate all the miracles and SU powers. You could have sorcerer/dweomerkeeper on the other side, and pull off a infinite damage loop with SU sanctum arcane fusion+damage spell (vortex of teeth w/ evil descriptor or the like). For the higher stature part, it gives no definition to what it means for stature, so you could use magic to become taller than them before you destroy them, or just get better known, they haven't really done much for a few thousand years, all but the greatest of sages don't know they exist, on the other hand you may have a massive reputation among mortals, and once you destroy one of them, I think it would spread to deities, meaning you might have higher stature in that way as well. Craft contigent spells to teleport you to each of them so you can kill them all in one round, start while you're in a battle so you'd appear after they already acted that round and can do nothing about it.

I just noticed that the Anti magic field thing could be interpreted as it doesn't impede your magic (the character), though the creature wouldn't read it meaning I'm pretty sure that as worded, it won't have any SLAs, SUs or casting that it can actually use.

[Flickerdart]

What we need is a way to jack a bunch of divine ranks from something. Alter Reality beats anything.

[Eugenides]

I'm REALLY bad at optimization, but just a question: with 40 levels of gestalt, do you guys think there would be a way to abuse that Red Wizard of Thay prestige class that can basically steal spell slots from other willing casters?

[theUnearther]

I'm REALLY bad at optimization, but just a question: with 40 levels of gestalt, do you guys think there would be a way to abuse that Red Wizard of Thay prestige class that can basically steal spell slots from other willing casters?

There are plenty of ways to abuse the red wizard. The most obviously is probably chaingating spellcasting monsters.

The problem with this approach is that the existence of epic spells makes nonepic spells obsolete, in any amount.
Unless you meant using those spells to fuel a supermitigated epic spells, in which case red wizard does not help at all, and mitigation is unnecesary anyways.

Also, I did not realize there were so many levels to gain. In that case, I'd like to make the following stipulations to my attempt.
One side is Wizard1/Erudite something/the arcanepsionic theurge 10/Erudite 15 minus "something"/Wizard 14. Qualifying for the arcane side of the theurge at level 1, then taking epic manifesting at level 23 and epic spellcasting at 36. On the other side is Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 10/Druid 25, if I have to take epic spellcasting twice then I guess at 24. And if one helping serves both sides, then my 36th feat opens up. But there is nothing to take. Is there such a thing as "Extra Epic Spell"?
Anyways, if theurges are disallowed, I go with Wizard 7/Druid 7/Erudite 7/Wizard 7/Erudite 7/Planar Shepherd 10/Druid 2 in one side and Druid 7/Erudite 7/Wizard 7/Druid 7/Wizard 6/Erudite 6 on the other, which gives me epic spellcasting (wizard) at 30, (druid) at 33 and epic manifesting at 36 (or whichever, they all qualify at level 28).
Obviously any levels of Erudite, Wizard or Druid can be switched for any full casting prestige class you want. The key to all of this is the Shepherd's level 9 ability, and a question: Is there any creature that gets Epic Spellcasting as an Extraordinary, Spell-like or Supernatural ability? Because if so, I just smuggled myself into infinite epic spells. And since both the Epic Level and Immortals handbooks seem to be in play, I bet there is one.
The only epic spells I really need now are one that gives me infinite uses of wildshape per day, and preferably makes it a non-action too; the basic +spellcraft, but this time I want it to be a stackable one, even if it's just a +1, I'll have an infinite amount of them; and the one that actually deals with the problem, that presumably can have arbitrarily high effects by burning more and more epic spells. Or perhaps a simple unbound mitigation and wildshaping into something that has nonepic spells, but the whole point of this exercise was that mitigation is pointless.
The specifics of the things' immunity seems to be a nonissue, since anything I might want to do to them is either to know where they are and to make them stop being.

I agree that it all falls flat if the other guys have better spells than me, hence the scratching around for more sources of them. Since I don't think you get more epic spell slots by level.
Also, I just realized there are 7 of those guys, not 3. My bad.

[TuggyNE]

I agree that it all falls flat if the other guys have better spells than me, hence the scratching around for more sources of them. Since I don't think you get more epic spell slots by level.

You get epic spell slots at the rate of 1 per 10 Knowledge (arcana), (religion), or (psionics) ranks.

[The Redwolf]

Where can one find somewhere to read some of the monsters in that book? This sounds like a lot of fun and I'd like to take a look at them.

[LadyLexi]

20 levels of knight really expands my characters lifespan for a fight, and then epic level spell casting going the Gestalt route, Backlash still can't kill me because I'm a knight. And I try to explode it a little bit. Alternatively, Wish for a genie to grant wishes of three wish scrolls for more Genies. There must be something to do with infinite money and wishes.