Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

[Turalisj]

I have the black bloody lungs. *cough*

Fixed that for you.

[LaZodiac]

Incidentally, I'd enjoy that as an explanation for Ukitake's condition more than soul tuberculosis.

This is officially my canon until proven otherwise.

[Ramza00]

Also Byakuya has to maintain a sphere of safety form his own weapon. However Matsumoto could fight within hers without a problem, it's only dangerous with a swing of the hilt and mentally controlled targeting.

Technically, you could say Matsumoto's is superior. Wider range, pinpoint accuracy, no risk to self. It's just Matsumoto her self is far weaker and less experienced than Byakuya. She also lacks the motivation needed to ever make up the difference.

Can Matsumoto's ash be used as a defensive shield for Byakuya has this ability with his Shikia.

[Drolyt]

Incidentally, I'd enjoy that as an explanation for Ukitake's condition more than soul tuberculosis.

Was tuberculosis ever really given as an explanation, or was that just a fan conclusion because of the similar symptoms? Regardless, it brought about one of my favorite character nicknames ever: Captain Consumption.

[Battleship789]

Can Matsumoto's ash be used as a defensive shield for Byakuya has this ability with his Shikia.

I believe she used her Shikai like that against Harribel's fracciones.

[Somewhere]

Was tuberculosis ever really given as an explanation, or was that just a fan conclusion because of the similar symptoms? Regardless, it brought about one of my favorite character nicknames ever: Captain Consumption.

Fan conclusion, since bloody coughing disease in fiction has pretty good odds of being tuberculosis.

[Ramza00]

Fan conclusion, since bloody coughing disease in fiction has pretty good odds of being tuberculosis.

It is not normal fiction for in normal fiction you need lungs to cough blood

[Drolyt]

Fan conclusion, since bloody coughing disease in fiction has pretty good odds of being tuberculosis.

Well, I imagine Captain Consumption was partly inspired by Okita Soji, 1st Captain of the Shinsengumi who had tuberculosis and was also one of the best swordsmen of the era. The Gotei 13 seems to be partly inspired by the Shinsengumi anyways. Doesn't mean the disease actually is tuberculosis though.

[Mikeavelli]

Superman can see Souls.

Objection!

Superman can't see Deadman.

I'm not even going to start with this whole calcs thing again. That's silly.

[Somewhere]

As for Bleach's panda/viz comparison this week...

Panda's usually getting the meaning (or is close enough that I don't care), but naturally, Viz does a better job with wording.

Not a lot standing out since it's mainly a battle chapter, so not a lot of text to cross examine.

Original page 8/panda page 10, middle left panel:
Panda: However... by removing it you hit your bottom.
Viz: However... once your eyepatch is removed, your capacity is apparent.
Original: Desuga gantai wo hazuseba anata no soko wa soremade.
Panda's more literal here, while Viz gets the meaning across better, I think.
Soko can mean bottom/floor (and is what you get by simply sticking it into a online dictionary), which is presumably how Panda got that. Looking at the kanji details, it can also mean depth. I should also note that 'soko' is standing out in the middle of the sentence by being a bit partitioned off with something like quotation marks. Soremade here I'm understanding as 'to the extent', or something along those lines.

Aside: The previous panel is done right by both, but man, I like how Unohana says it in the original. When she's commending Kenpachi for taking off the eyepatch from the start, she says 'homete sashiagemashou'. Homeru is the verb for to commend. -te ageru would've made it to mean she's giving the commendation. -te sashiageru makes it a modest giving. It's quite polite since it means that the receiver is socially higher than the giver. Oh Unohana, still so polite even in midcombat.

--

Ok, Viz's take on the last few panels!
"Kenpachi Zaraki, you will not die. You grow stronger with every battle you survive. That's the flaw put upon yourself."

[LaZodiac]

I'm unsure if Viz's take on the last panal is for or againest "Kenpachi is immortal". I'm also not sure if it's accurate.

Oh, also, I'm probably going to buy myself a subscription to Shonen Jump, but I'll keep on reading the fanscans alongside to see the multiple interpretations and what not. This will lead to indepth discussions, I presume!

[Fan]

Objection!

Superman can't see Deadman.

I'm not even going to start with this whole calcs thing again. That's silly.

Superman has many writers who take various liberties with the powers he has, and some powers he has are less mentioned and thus aren't used as often by writers. Deadman in particular CAN be seen be Superman at various points, but during others cannot due to the lack of consistent appearances by Deadman in recent years exception the Blackest Night storyline, where he was visible.

In short, due to the inconsistent nature of comics in general (All of them. Yes, especially Batman.) it's not fair to site one character example and claim that it invalidates another occurance, because it doesn't the part where he can see Souls still happened and was explicitly mentioned. At other points Superman is able to see Jon Jon'z when he goes etheral, or The Phantom Stranger when he does the same.

Also, Calcs are an entirely valid method of portraying a character's abilities, anyone who suggests otherwise is wrong, and doesn't understand the science involved or is attempting to operate on a "science can't define manga or animated character's abilities" standpoint, which is fallacious as they themselves have internal measurement systems a lot of the time, and at others specifically mention scientific measurements at the caps of their power. Anyone who says otherwise, wrong, every time. Go to KMC, a formal versus thread debate forum, and try to oppose calcs as a valid method of measuring a character's abilities.

[Drolyt]

Superman has many writers who take various liberties with the powers he has, and some powers he has are less mentioned and thus aren't used as often by writers. Deadman in particular CAN be seen be Superman at various points, but during others cannot due to the lack of consistent appearances by Deadman in recent years exception the Blackest Night storyline, where he was visible.

In short, due to the inconsistent nature of comics in general (All of them. Yes, especially Batman.) it's not fair to site one character example and claim that it invalidates another occurance, because it doesn't the part where he can see Souls still happened and was explicitly mentioned. At other points Superman is able to see Jon Jon'z when he goes etheral, or The Phantom Stranger when he does the same.

Also, Calcs are an entirely valid method of portraying a character's abilities, anyone who suggests otherwise is wrong, and doesn't understand the science involved or is attempting to operate on a "science can't define manga or animated character's abilities" standpoint, which is fallacious as they themselves have internal measurement systems a lot of the time, and at others specifically mention scientific measurements at the caps of their power. Anyone who says otherwise, wrong, every time. Go to KMC, a formal versus thread debate forum, and try to oppose calcs as a valid method of measuring a character's abilities.

What are Calcs? Anyways, if we need to avoid inconsistency just use the Superman from Red Son. It is close to the high end in terms of his power set and is only 3 issues so it is quite consistent. I don't recall him fighting ghosts in that version, but I think (I'm doing this off memory here so I may be wrong) he displayed his heat vision, which should be plenty to fight a shinigami. Chad did it with just instructions as to where the enemy was.

[Anteros]

Superman has many writers who take various liberties with the powers he has, and some powers he has are less mentioned and thus aren't used as often by writers. Deadman in particular CAN be seen be Superman at various points, but during others cannot due to the lack of consistent appearances by Deadman in recent years exception the Blackest Night storyline, where he was visible.

In short, due to the inconsistent nature of comics in general (All of them. Yes, especially Batman.) it's not fair to site one character example and claim that it invalidates another occurance, because it doesn't the part where he can see Souls still happened and was explicitly mentioned. At other points Superman is able to see Jon Jon'z when he goes etheral, or The Phantom Stranger when he does the same.

Also, Calcs are an entirely valid method of portraying a character's abilities, anyone who suggests otherwise is wrong, and doesn't understand the science involved or is attempting to operate on a "science can't define manga or animated character's abilities" standpoint, which is fallacious as they themselves have internal measurement systems a lot of the time, and at others specifically mention scientific measurements at the caps of their power. Anyone who says otherwise, wrong, every time. Go to KMC, a formal versus thread debate forum, and try to oppose calcs as a valid method of measuring a character's abilities.

Your argument is that it's only fair to use the inconsistencies that support the points you want to make while ignoring the inconsistencies that hurt them. That seems perfectly logical and fair.

[Mikeavelli]

Calcs

Calcs are irrelevant because of Power Creep / Seep resulting in a wildly inconsistent portrayal of characters, which you've acknowledged, and then ignored in favor of assuming we must always use the most powerful iteration ever written. This is silly.

Also you, specifically, often use incorrect math or fabricated information. See: the Avatar vs. Roy Mustang thread, which is why I'm never going down that rabbit hole ever again.

----------------------

Red Son is a bit strange as a comic book. The only thing that ever seriously challenges Superman is Soviet Batman with Red Sun radiation beating the Man of Steel senseless. He single-handedly demolishes an entire Green Lantern Corps , every monster in Superman's rogue gallery (most of it off-panel!), and Braniac, all without even breaking a sweat.

It accepts that he's invincible, and skips to the really interesting parts of superman with communist ideals taking control of the world, and saving it.

For nailing down a specific version of the charater, I'm a big fan of the Justice League Unlimited cartoon series, rather than any comic book iteration.

[Fan]

Your argument is that it's only fair to use the inconsistencies that support the points you want to make while ignoring the inconsistencies that hurt them. That seems perfectly logical and fair.

That's not my argument at all, my argument is that if a character does something they can do it. I've been jumped on for trying to single out inconsistencies before by GITP'ers, can we please pick a stance?

Also, that's exactly why I allow all showings Mikaveli, we saw different things in that shot, and it was argued that the time it takes the attack to reach the target + build up wasn't relevant to the argument

As for using the most powerful iteration, I'm not, I use the mainline post 1986 Crisis on Infinite Earths variety, if I were to truly be singling out the strongest version I'd be using Pre Crisis, DC 1 Million, or Cosmic Armor Superman, or Sword of Superman Superman.

The version I'm using is, outside of T.V. Shows and Movies, is actually the WEAKEST version of Superman. I also don't use his largest outlier feats, the biggest strength feat he has is pulling the Mageddon device.

Also, again, none of the information used there was used in calc's, it was the fact that we saw lines in different places, and again, my math is correct here, you're welcome to look up the figures and heats for Carbon Fusion, and the heat of a Star going Supernova.

[Anteros]

I haven't even the tiniest intention of derailing this thread into that conversation. I shouldn't have said anything. I apologize.

[Ronnoc]

Calcs are an entirely valid method of portraying a character's abilities, anyone who suggests otherwise is wrong, and doesn't understand the science involved

Science is dependent on consistent measurements which the inconsistent nature of comics defies. So yes science and calculations are not perfectly applicable to comparing characters.

[Fan]

Science is dependent on consistent measurements which the inconsistent nature of comics defies. So yes science and calculations are not perfectly applicable to comparing characters.

Science can measure anything that has a observable effect, it is not reliant on a consistent stream of data from multiple sources in order to measure the output of say, one energy attack going by the terrain it destroys.

You're wrong, and that's not being rude or anything, you're genuinely misinterpreting how science works.

Whether the medium itself is inconsistent is up to debate, but I say it's more than fair to allow something if it's been done 3 or 4 times.

Anyways, this is far from what this thread is about. So I'll do the gentlemanly thing and bow out.

[Tavar]

I'd say you are just as wrong to ignore the problem of inconsistent situations and variables. There's a reasons that the scientific ideal is to narrow a situation down so that you essentially have only 2 variables, with one of those variables under your direct control, and then to do repeated trials in that situation.

[Mikeavelli]

What? No. This is wrong to the point of offensiveness. A consistent stream of data from multiple sources is the entire point of science.

Read up on Scientific Method.

Most relevant part of the article:

"Philosophy of science looks at the underpinning logic of the scientific method, at what separates science from non-science, and the ethic that is implicit in science. There are basic assumptions derived from philosophy that form the base of the scientific method - namely, that reality is objective and consistent, that humans have the capacity to perceive reality accurately, and that rational explanations exist for elements of the real world. These assumptions from methodological naturalism form the basis on which science is grounded."

And if Wikipedia isn't good enough for you, you'll find something similar in the prologue to every science textbook ever written.

[VanBuren]

Science can measure anything that has a observable effect, it is not reliant on a consistent stream of data from multiple sources in order to measure the output of say, one energy attack going by the terrain it destroys.

You're wrong, and that's not being rude or anything, you're genuinely misinterpreting how science works.

Whether the medium itself is inconsistent is up to debate, but I say it's more than fair to allow something if it's been done 3 or 4 times.

Anyways, this is far from what this thread is about. So I'll do the gentlemanly thing and bow out.

Said the pot to the kettle?

[Drolyt]

Where did science come into this? Regardless, in science it is not considered enough that your theory is consistent with existing data. You have to be able to make testable predictions, which doesn't really work when analyzing comic book superheroes. Not to say that you can't analyze comic book superheroes methodically, it just isn't really a science.

For nailing down a specific version of the charater, I'm a big fan of the Justice League Unlimited cartoon series, rather than any comic book iteration.

I'm not terribly familiar with that version, but I think he is still powerful enough to be a credible threat to any character in Bleach. If that is what we are discussing, I'm kind of lost.

[Anteros]

Can we please not do this in the Bleach thread? I already avoid clicking on any thread with Supes in the title just to avoid exactly where this conversation is heading.

[Fan]

Can we please not do this in the Bleach thread? I already avoid clicking on any thread with Supes in the title just to avoid exactly where this conversation is heading.

I already said I was stopping, other people are still going here.

[Drolyt]

Can we please not do this in the Bleach thread? I already avoid clicking on any thread with Supes in the title just to avoid exactly where this conversation is heading.

Is it really so bad? I just skip posts that don't interest me.

[LaZodiac]

In other news, Bleach! I kind of hope the beautiful man with the peacock Banaki shows up. I kinda miss him, since he was funny.

[Drolyt]

In other news, Bleach! I kind of hope the beautiful man with the peacock Banaki shows up. I kinda miss him, since he was funny.

What's a banaki?

[darksolitaire]

But...but...Yumichika-san doesn't have a bankai!
...yet.

[Morph Bark]

It's an edible fruit closely related to the banana. You do need to take care to remove the red parts though, as they are poisonous, which is sometimes weaponized by the countries it's grown in. Colombia allegedly has a ready stash in many of their bases.