DMing a Wizard

[Threadnaught]

Guys, question about the Wizard. I know how many Spells a Sorcerer is supposed to have at each level, but for a Wizard the SRD says all 0th level Spells, three 1st level Spells and one 1st level Spell per +1 from Intelligence. Each level gained in the class granting two Spells of a level the Wizard can cast.

I've been teasing my 5th level Wizard by letting them put Spells in their Spellbook, but not allowing them use of the Spells until they level up, at which point they unlock 2 of a level they can cast.

Have I interprated the rules wrong?
My Druid is gonna call me a bad DM eitherway, because I'm not allowing them access to 9th level Spells at 4th CL... He's that guy who whines at every rule the DM uses and never wants to fail, aka a bit of a munchkin. Just not the sort who will even try to optimize.

The Spells the Wizard has in his Spellbook and can cast (not counting 0th level) so far are
Color Spray, Enlarge Person, Identify, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Magic Weapon, Reduce Person, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shocking Grasp, Bull's Strength, Flaming Sphere, Hideous Laughter, Invisibility, Dispel Magic and Fireball.

With these Spells yet to be castable and still taking up pages.
Disguise Self, Feather Fall, True Strike, Web, Fly and Protection from Energy.


The Wizard currently has no complaints about the way I run things, but should I be doing it differently?

[LordBlades]

Yes, you have been interpreting them wrong.

The PHB info refers to the spells the wizard gets to add into his spellbook automatically and at no cost. He can scribe as many more as he likes provided he can find them, has the free time and plays the cash to write them down.

Also, there's no limit on how many different spells he can cast either. A wizard can prepare whatever the hell he has in his spellbook (or other people's spellbooks too with some checks), only limitation is spell slots.

[Krazzman]

Have I interprated the rules wrong?

I believe that most DM's I have played with would think this is just finely interpreted.
The point with your interpretation is: How does this work with versatile spell caster?
Example: I have a level 2 wizard. I have the spell Bull's Strenght in my Book but normally wouldn't be able to cast it. But if I forgo 2 1st level spell slots I would have a 2nd level spells lot to prepare it in. Allowed or not?

My Druid is gonna call me a bad DM eitherway, because I'm not allowing them access to 9th level Spells at 4th CL... He's that guy who whines at every rule the DM uses and never wants to fail, aka a bit of a munchkin. Just not the sort who will even try to optimize.

The Spells the Wizard has in his Spellbook and can cast (not counting 0th level) so far are
Color Spray, Enlarge Person, Identify, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Magic Weapon, Reduce Person, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shocking Grasp, Bull's Strength, Flaming Sphere, Hideous Laughter, Invisibility, Dispel Magic and Fireball.

With these Spells yet to be castable and still taking up pages.
Disguise Self, Feather Fall, True Strike, Web, Fly and Protection from Energy.


The Wizard currently has no complaints about the way I run things, but should I be doing it differently?

If I understood you correctly he has 3rd level slots and has 3rd level spells in his book right?
The point is the Wizard knows all the Spells of the Level he can cast... that are in his book. The 2 per level are just free of charge. For the others he either has to buy a scroll or pay a wizard to let him copy from his spell book.

As such in RAW he would be able to cast Disguise Self and so on just fine.

[Crustypeanut]

You are interpreting them waaay wrong.

The 2 per level the wizard gets are ABOVE AND BEYOND everything they can scribe into their spellbooks. These 2 per level are free to scribe and automatic unless houseruled otherwise.

In addition, a wizard may scribe any other number of spells he can find - be it scrolls or other spellbooks - into his spellbook by spending 1 hour per spell level and a certain amount of money in ink depending on the spell level.

These are completely separate from the 2 per level. Basically, you are limiting your wizard severely by doing it the way you're doing it, and he should probably just go sorcerer instead of keeping on as is. Wizards are supposed to be versatile, rather than limited.

[hoverfrog]

According to the SRD

Spell Selection and Preparation
Until she prepares spells from her spellbook, the only spells a wizard has available to cast are the ones that she already had prepared from the previous day and has not yet used. During the study period, she chooses which spells to prepare. If a wizard already has spells prepared (from the previous day) that she has not cast, she can abandon some or all of them to make room for new spells.

When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of her spells.

Spell Slots
The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.

What everyone else said but there's more. In addition to this a wizard can learn spells from someone else's spellbook.

Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster’s book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. She must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times she has prepared it before. If the check fails, she cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. (However, as explained above, she does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.)

Though as a house rule I throw the part about already knowing the spell out.

[Threadnaught]

Thank you for the responses guys, I'll let my Wizard have an encounter to "unlock his potential" which will let him cast everything he currently has in his Spellbook and gain access to 8 new Spells free of charge.

I'll also stop teasing him with the higher level Spells.

I have a level 2 wizard. I have the spell Bull's Strenght in my Book but normally wouldn't be able to cast it. But if I forgo 2 1st level spell slots I would have a 2nd level spellslot to prepare it in. Allowed or not?

Unless I try this, it could be interesting.

[Magic Myrmidon]

I'd say teasing with higher levels spells can still happen. It's kind of a neat houserule to allow a wizard to scribe a scroll into his spellbook ahead of being able to cast it. He'd have the spell when he levels, but he can't cast it until then. Makes some sense, too, since it's assumed he'd be studying it in his off time.

That being said, I'd also be careful with handing out higher level scrolls. Even if you mean for the wizard to scribe it, the party might decide to just forget about that and use the scroll, which might shatter an encounter or two, since higher level spells can be really powerful.

[Spuddles]

I'd say teasing with higher levels spells can still happen. It's kind of a neat houserule to allow a wizard to scribe a scroll into his spellbook ahead of being able to cast it. He'd have the spell when he levels, but he can't cast it until then. Makes some sense, too, since it's assumed he'd be studying it in his off time.

That being said, I'd also be careful with handing out higher level scrolls. Even if you mean for the wizard to scribe it, the party might decide to just forget about that and use the scroll, which might shatter an encounter or two, since higher level spells can be really powerful.

Wizards can copy any spell they want into their books, regardless of level. The only provisions is having enough material and succeeding a relatively easy spellcraft check.

[Magic Myrmidon]

Oh. Not a houserule then. I just never really see any instances of that happening. Neat.

Still. Careful with higher level spells.

[Mithril Leaf]

Oh. Not a houserule then. I just never really see any instances of that happening. Neat.

Still. Careful with higher level spells.

It's in fact one of the key points of making Red Wizards even more viable at high levels.

[TuggyNE]

A couple of points, just to clarify and reinforce what's already mostly been stated:

• A wizard can copy a spell into their spellbook from another spellbook or a scroll; this is not limited by level
• A wizard gets, free of charge and with no time expenditure*, two spells of a level they can cast at every level-up

Allowing a wizard to gain extra higher-level spells for free in exchange for fewer free lower-level spells is somewhat imbalanced.

*Besides the time they're assumed to have spent researching those spells in whatever fragments of downtime they have while actively adventuring.

[Slipperychicken]

Allowing a wizard to gain extra higher-level spells for free in exchange for fewer free lower-level spells is somewhat imbalanced.

Especially if you start at higher levels. Unless you got a Blessed Book, in which case it's a moot point, since your spells known are near-free anyway.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Especially if you start at higher levels. Unless you got a Blessed Book, in which case it's a moot point, since your spells known are near-free anyway.

I see this alot, but it's not really true.

By buying a BBB you're essentially pre-paying for spells you haven't found yet. It -does- make them notably cheaper in the long-run, but there's no such thing as free.

In fact, scribing the freebies you get at level up into a BBB actually makes all the other spells you add to the book slightly more expensive, though still alot cheaper than they would've been in a normal spell-book.

It's a great item, and well worth the cash, but it doesn't make anything free. You might even be cheating yourself out of loot if your DM counts the BBB against your WBL, but wasn't counting your normal spell-book against it.

[Spuddles]

I see this alot, but it's not really true.

By buying a BBB you're essentially pre-paying for spells you haven't found yet. It -does- make them notably cheaper in the long-run, but there's no such thing as free.

In fact, scribing the freebies you get at level up into a BBB actually makes all the other spells you add to the book slightly more expensive, though still alot cheaper than they would've been in a normal spell-book.

It's a great item, and well worth the cash, but it doesn't make anything free. You might even be cheating yourself out of loot if your DM counts the BBB against your WBL, but wasn't counting your normal spell-book against it.

A BBB with 100 1st level spells in it costs more than a regular spell book of the same. But 100 5th level spells....

[Kelb_Panthera]

A BBB with 100 1st level spells in it costs more than a regular spell book of the same. But 100 5th level spells....

That's just it. A BBB is worth exactly 12500gp no matter how many spells are in it regardless of their levels. When it's filled to capacity the contents will have been made equal to 12.5gp per spell level. If it's only got 100 first level spells, congratulations, you've got 1st level spells that've cost you 125gp each. That's an extra 25% over what you'd've paid for the mundane spell-book equivalent.

I'm not saying that it's anything less than an awesome item. I'm just saying that it doesn't really make scribing spells truly free.

If you're a geometer though, you can get the cost per spell low enough to be practically free, at least by the time you fill the thing.

[Threadnaught]

A BBB with 100 1st level spells in it costs more than a regular spell book of the same. But 100 5th level spells....

A regular Spellbook has 100 pages and a Spell takes up 1 page per Spell level. You can have up to 20 5th level Spells in a standard Spellboock. Yes, I'm using that rule and yes, it affects the Word Spells.

The BBB is worth 12500gp, when full each Spell level is worth 12.5gp eh?

So that's 1000 pages? Or 100 Spells?


@Kelb, I normally look at your posts and think they make a lot of sense, but you've lost me in that last post. Though the one before that gave me a nice cruel idea, give the Wizard a BBB and count it against their WBL. Though both players each have two stones that don't count against their WBL, these Stones allow them to cast Wish once.
Next time the Druid whines about something though, I'll grant his Wish.

[Kelb_Panthera]

A regular Spellbook has 100 pages and a Spell takes up 1 page per Spell level. You can have up to 20 5th level Spells in a standard Spellboock. Yes, I'm using that rule and yes, it affects the Word Spells.

The BBB is worth 12500gp, when full each Spell level is worth 12.5gp eh?

So that's 1000 pages? Or 100 Spells?


@Kelb, I normally look at your posts and think they make a lot of sense, but you've lost me in that last post. Though the one before that gave me a nice cruel idea, give the Wizard a BBB and count it against their WBL. Though both players each have two stones that don't count against their WBL, these Stones allow them to cast Wish once.
Next time the Druid whines about something though, I'll grant his Wish.

Where'd I lose you? I'd be happy to elaborate.

As for the WBL thing, I've always counted the spellbook, regardless of whether it's magical or not. It's permanent equipment that sees regular use. I am nice enough to subtract the value of the freeby spells for level up from its value though.

[Threadnaught]

Well if the value of the BBB is 12500gp and each Spell level is worth 12.5gp then it contains 1000 pages.
Yep, just found it in the SRD, yep it'll count against the Wizard's WBL, I'll have to let my Wizard make one of those when he *ahem* powers up.

[Slipperychicken]

In fact, scribing the freebies you get at level up into a BBB actually makes all the other spells you add to the book slightly more expensive, though still alot cheaper than they would've been in a normal spell-book.

You don't scribe the freebies into the BBB. You put them in your (free) starter-spellbook.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You don't scribe the freebies into the BBB. You put them in your (free) starter-spellbook.

If you're smart and think about the way the numbers interact, yes.

Not everyone's going to give it the proper thought though. Many people aren't even going to read this thread and will continue to think that this 12500gp item makes something free, because it uses the word free in the description and how the numbers actually work is easily overlooked.

My wizards always have a few staple spells tattooed onto their bodies just in case something happens to the book. I like to try to find a geometer to do it so they don't take up too much room and can be easily concealed.

[Threadnaught]

I've also been charging my Wizard a paltry 10gp per Spell level for buying new ones. I'm going to have to find a way to extract a few 3000gp from him. I'll explain the new cost with the whole powerup thing.

[Slipperychicken]

I'm going to have to find a way to extract a few 3000gp from him.

Taxes? Pickpockets? Guild extortion? Charities? Needy relatives? Someone he cares about needs to pay for a Remove Addiction/Break Enchantment/Wish?



If he accepts a drink from a sketchy motherf***er, and fails his Fort save he's a Wizard of course he'll fail his Fort save, he wakes up the next morning 3,000gp poorer.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I've also been charging my Wizard a paltry 10gp per Spell level for buying new ones. I'm going to have to find a way to extract a few 3000gp from him. I'll explain the new cost with the whole powerup thing.

Oh, ouch. Yeah, I can see where grossly undercharging for new spells could have his versatility a bit higher than expected. Serioulsy though, only 1/10 normal cost?

Remember to own up to the fact you screwed up. IME, just saying, "okay here's the thing; I screwed up. Here's how the actual rules are supposed to work <explanation> so that's how it is going to work from now on," goes over so much better than trying to fix it a little at a time and looking like you're arbitrarily screwing with his character.

I know it's a galling thing to have to do, but admitting mistakes is almost always the better path than trying to cover them up.

[hoverfrog]

I've also been charging my Wizard a paltry 10gp per Spell level for buying new ones. I'm going to have to find a way to extract a few 3000gp from him. I'll explain the new cost with the whole powerup thing.

There's nothing wrong with that if money is rare but if it is abundant as it is in most games then you're essentially giving out a lot of free power to one of the most powerful classes in the game.

[Threadnaught]

Well every time I've done something wrong and learned how to do things properly. I explained the mistake to the players, told the Druid (formerly "that ******* Bard") to stfu and applied the fix.

The players so far haven't had any serious adventures, they've been taking odd jobs off the mundane human board, which has a load of mundane jobs such as building and shopkeeping. And the crystal elven board, which requires Read Magic to, well read. This also contains mundane stuff, but has more jobs for their classes and the overall plot. Counting up all currency, the level 5 Wizard has 3286gp, counting the value of goods and equipment, I haven't been counting the value of the Wish Stones (because really, they should be using those by now) and am unsure how much value 27 Spell levels would add to a Spellbook. I can so see the Wizard sinking most of his WBL into learning Spells, while the Druid will sink most of his cash into investing in the Wizard doing stuff.
I do have a horrible feeling that those Wish Stones are gonna haunt me though.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well every time I've done something wrong and learned how to do things properly. I explained the mistake to the players, told the Druid (formerly "that ******* Bard") to stfu and applied the fix.

The players so far haven't had any serious adventures, they've been taking odd jobs off the mundane human board, which has a load of mundane jobs such as building and shopkeeping. And the crystal elven board, which requires Read Magic to, well read. This also contains mundane stuff, but has more jobs for their classes and the overall plot. Counting up all currency, the level 5 Wizard has 3286gp, counting the value of goods and equipment, I haven't been counting the value of the Wish Stones (because really, they should be using those by now) and am unsure how much value 27 Spell levels would add to a Spellbook. I can so see the Wizard sinking most of his WBL into learning Spells, while the Druid will sink most of his cash into investing in the Wizard doing stuff.
I do have a horrible feeling that those Wish Stones are gonna haunt me though.

I don't know exactly what a wish stone is, but the name alone sends chills down my spine.

As for the value of the spells, that's right there in black and white in the PHB; 100gp per spell level. There are ways to mitigate that cost, obviously, but that's the default and probably what your wizard's paying, or rather should be paying.

[Threadnaught]

I don't know exactly what a wish stone is, but the name alone sends chills down my spine.

Think Ring of Three Wishes, without the "Ring". A stone that allows a single casting of Wish. At the moment, they're too awesome to use and both players are waiting for more Tarrasque based adventures. So far they pointed a Pit Fiend toward where it can be found (this is how they earned the first stones) and spoken to it for the Centaur Druids (this is how they got the second stones), the Centaurs and Devils are subject to an uneasy alliance which the party Druid complains about.

[Slipperychicken]

Think Ring of Three Wishes, without the "Ring". A stone that allows a single casting of Wish.

One Wish = [Ring of Three Wishes market price]/3 = 97,950gp/3 = 32,650gp

Custom Magic item Guidelines (Single use item of Wish)= 32,650gp


EDIT: Since your players appear to have functioning brains, they will either a) hold on to those stones till the end of the game without using them, or b) Use them at the most inconvenient time for you, to completely destroy the plot. Never give your players Wishes.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Think Ring of Three Wishes, without the "Ring". A stone that allows a single casting of Wish. At the moment, they're too awesome to use and both players are waiting for more Tarrasque based adventures. So far they pointed a Pit Fiend toward where it can be found (this is how they earned the first stones) and spoken to it for the Centaur Druids (this is how they got the second stones), the Centaurs and Devils are subject to an uneasy alliance which the party Druid complains about.

Holy gamebusters batman!

You must find a way to convince them to use these or otherwise relieve them of their ownership. The very existence of these things is a bad idea.

Worse, you can't say you made a mistake on their legality, so simply taking them away really is just arbitrarily screwing with their characters.

You've really painted yourself into a corner on this one. Good luck.

[hoverfrog]

Anyone who knows about this wishing item will want it. Think of all the good that could be done say the paladin order. Think of how rich it would make me say the thieves guild. How much knowledge could be gained through this item say the mage's college. Everyone will want it, some may even be willing to pay for it.