League of Legends XXXIX: Harrowing in the Playground

[Eldariel]

Personally I would have done Support Cho, Top Lane Kass, Middle Malz, Jungle Kha.

Did you have Kass support? I had one of those in a solo queue game. It was pretty hilarious because we got first blood on the enemy blue (Kass got it, I was AD in the same lane with him) and we completely wrecked the enemy with it. It was pretty hilarious, but in hindsight the player may have been a smurf... so that might have helped.

I find Cho jungle too good to pass up on and Kha is kinda beastly top so we ran Malzahar support (seriously, ulti is a free kill every time it's off cooldown and he has insanely long range harass complete with Silence). I was running Kass mid, got kinda fed and then started manmoding a bit too much; not that it mattered but it caused me to die a lot.

You read him wrong. He said triforce, not infinity edge.

Ah, so it seems. Well, both are fine too. Trinity has more utility, BT more straight-up damage. Generally people like Trinity 'cause Phage is a real good early buy and Trinity has both, similar stand-up and similar poke damage tho. But I know some Asian players use BT rush very successfully; it's really a matter of game specifics and preference.

[Temotei]

Ah, so it seems. Well, both are fine too. Trinity has more utility, BT more straight-up damage. Generally people like Trinity 'cause Phage is a real good early buy and Trinity has both, similar stand-up and similar poke damage tho. But I know some Asian players use BT rush very successfully; it's really a matter of game specifics and preference.

The most common build I've seen on Ezreal around here is:

Boots-3 --> Doran's/Phage --> vamp --> BT --> Triforce --> Other.

[NeoStriker]

So a friend of mine (not especially skilled herself) wanted me to help teach a friend who's just starting out. Seeing as I already teach her to some degree.

I figure they're level 5 and already have a PVP win, so hey, good sign!

Spoiler

Show

I am forced to assume that the match at the bottom was someone providing a demonstration.

Then the latest of the Fortune matches got them the most gold, so I can get a good idea of the sort of build they go for.



What on earth did I get myself into?

I think I just threw up a little.

[Forrestfire]

I got the honor sash! Yay

[Cogwheel]

I got the honor sash! Yay

Meanwhile I just got teamwork honour for AP mid Rammus.

Something has gone terribly wrong here. I didn't do half as well as our botlane!


AD Sona/AD Lux with Sword of the Occult on both, in case you're wondering.

[Godskook]

I got the honor sash! Yay

Which one?

And I know the feeling, I just got the honorable opponent ribbon.

[NeoStriker]

Meanwhile I just got teamwork honour for AP mid Rammus.

Something has gone terribly wrong here. I didn't do half as well as our botlane!


AD Sona/AD Lux with Sword of the Occult on both, in case you're wondering.

Does your friend still need help with ADCs? If so, please take this advice:

Early game/Laning phase - Right now, you're probably wondering why minions are even there at all, they don't even do anything! This is somewhat true, minions are most definitely not going to be your main source of damage to the enemy champion anytime soon. Your real job is to be focused on the enemy minions. There isn't a single champion in this game that will always guarantee you a kill (Except for maybe one, heh), but what is guaranteed is a minion kill. Or, it's pretty much guaranteed, moreso than a champion at least. They come in nice little packages of 6 or 7 and they give gold. Champions also give gold, but they're high-risk-somewhat-high-gain while minions are low-risk-high-gain. A champion is worth roughly 20 minions. Farming champions is simply less efficient than farming minions. So you both just ignore each other and farm minions, fun and easy lane right? Here's where it gets interesting. Not all ADC champions are made the same. Some have an easy early game, some have a hard early game. For some, 1 of their minion kills could be worth 2 of yours. For example, even in the realm of carries, Vayne and Kog'Maw are considered hypercarries, or hard carries. When they have all their items, they can melt even the toughest of tanks in ~5 hits, as opposed to a regular carry, that might need 10. Yea, 5 less hits are a big deal. These champions have the potential to 1v5 the enemy team, but that would still require above average skill to pull off. But there's a catch: Their early game is weak. Not necessarily trash, but weak enough that you can feel, "Oh, wow, this guy is easy to push around." So you need to know how to capitalize on your champions strengths and weaknesses as well as your enemies'. Add in the support for even more fun!

Mid game/Teamfight phase - A tower or three are down, suddenly you have all these guys moving about, possibly adding new elements to your lane. This is when dragon control is most important (It'd be baron but baron still too stronk). This is when not just warding lanes is important, but warding all four entrances of your jungle is as well. Whoever can outmaneuver the other will win this phase. Communication and coordination is vital. Arriving late to a skirmish can cost the game. At this point, you alternate between farming as well as teamfighting, with teamfights taking higher priority. This is also pretty much where your poke reaches it's apex, because AD doesn't scale as hard.

Late game/End game - Welcome to World War III. By this point, both of the team's carries (AKA the AD and the AP) are essentially nuclear weapons, as they will melt anything and everything. The real queston here is who can drop theirs better. One wrong misstep, being even a second late for anything, can and will cost the game. Your job at this point is to always stay in the back, hide behind your tanks, and autoattack whenever you can. If you have decent items, your autoattacks should be able to melt anything in ~10 hits or less. It is your job to kill, everyone else's job is to help you do that. There is no "focus"-ing anything for you as your job is to be able to kill anything and everything while staying alive. So the best way to do that? Just autoattack the closest enemy champion to you. Switch targets appropriately. Make sure they can't touch you.

Freezing - The best way to describe this would be like edging when you're masturbating. Usually as an ADC and you're a bit into the game, you can start last-hitting minions when they're around one-third of their health. This is when you ignore that, and wait until the very, very, very last second to kill a minion. The goal of this is to accumulate the most amount of gold possible while making your wave of minions move forward as little as possible. What's the payload? Massive amount of gold, much better security as you're closer to your side of the map, AND your minion waves slowly stack up (Which also makes doing this harder). So when you do decide to go all the way, you now have a nice big minion shield to tank towers. What's the downside? It draws attention. If the other team is smart, they will go after you, and you will usually be alone, because your teammates generally don't like having to babysit someone else getting gold while they're not. When to do this? When you lost a tower and are thus being dominated. The enemy lane that was dominating you now has a much harder time killing you since you're closer to your side of the map. Being closer to your side of the map also helps when you need to just stop whatever you're doing and go help another lane that is about to have a teamfight. This is also generally what you're supposed to do in lane, but what you want there is to get the enemy champs close enough for your jungler to gank. Another extent of this is to simply stand in front of your tower so that the enemy minion wave doesn't keep going and instead hits you, but the only time this would be possible is when you have no minions, thus making you very very vulnerable.

Clearing is not the same as pushing a lane. Don't solo push a lane unless you're Yi or something. Clearing is to just make sure your wave of minions can push by itself.

[McDouggal]

OK, coming back after computer problems and discovering that my reflexes are shot. So, yeah, I'll be tanking for a bit. Any tips for the Mad Doctor? I know that cleavers are awesome already. Honestly, I can't decide if I should get boots/3 pots and get boots 2 first, cloth/5 pots for the extra armor and early sustain, Doran's Shield (regen, ruby crystal health bonus), or Ruby Crystal/pot and try to get Heart of Gold to improve my speed at getting Warmog's.

I'm a pretty good shot with the cleavers (and skillshots in general), and I have looked up some guides and looked at how pro players play him. However, that only goes so far. I assume half the guides are trolling, and the other half are well meaning but have no clue WTF they're doing (seriously? NO WARMOG'S on a Mundo? On an otherwise well intentioned guide?)

Basically, are there some early game tips you can give me? Late game, I become unkillable without a concentrated 5-man gank (or double ignite), and it doesn't take much skill. Just positioning, which is what I need practice doing anyways.

[TheShrike]

So Laudandus, I am finding you everywhere, it seems. First a video where you got juked hardcore, then I find you here.

[Godskook]

(seriously? NO WARMOG'S on a Mundo? On an otherwise well intentioned guide?)

Seriously. Warmogs, while good, is not required to be Mundo. I see FoN or Spirit Visage as being closer to his core for HP5, and getting decent resists works just about as well for anti-burst protection. For instance, LilballZ ran:

Finals #2 - Randuin's/Aegis/Spirit Visage/Merc's/Negatron
Finals #3 - Doran's/NMM/Merc's/HoG/Spirit Visage
Finals #4 - Randuin's/Aegis/FoN/Tabi/Doran's

[Laudandus]

So Laudandus, I am finding you everywhere, it seems. First a video where you got juked hardcore, then I find you here.

That game...

Did you watch it? Dominate was DC'ed for 18 minutes. It was the most absurd solo queue game of all time

[TheShrike]

The group I play with leans really hard on our ADC lategame, so my typical Mundo build is along the lines of (in no particular order) Defensive boots (usually Ninja Tabi), Spirit Visage, Aegis, HoG (later Randuin's), Zeke's Herald and often a Phage/Mallet, though sometimes I'll grab a Phantom Dancer or a Wit's End, depending on the gamestate. Again, this is in no set order, although it's often Kindlegem>Aegis>Spirit Visage.

EDIT: I didn't, but aethernox watched part of it.

[NineThePuma]

Am I the only one who looks at cho and doesn't automatically think "tank"?

Just got out of a game where my team apparently assumed I was going to end up going super tanky, only for me to go semi-glass cannon (tankiness was on the agenda, but wasn't intended to be a priority) and get yelled at.

It's so much easier to shrug off failing your team when it's solo queue than when it's buddies.

[TheShrike]

People typically go tanky on Cho because while his damage/ratios are good, it's largely based on melee Feast and his sustained damage is entirely melee. I'd rather go CDR-Tanky, honestly.

[Godskook]

Am I the only one who looks at cho and doesn't automatically think "tank"?

Much like building AP Ezreal, if you're going to do it, it requires good communication on your part to let your team know you're deviating heavily from the standard. Sure, it can still work, but you're far enough outside expectation that its on you to let people know you're doing it.

[NineThePuma]

Except I didn't really go AP?

Maybe I just have the wrong mind set for jungle Cho.

My thought process for him is that Jungle Clears > Lethal ganks. Because while a devastating rupture is devastating, above a certain skill level, anyone with boots is going to be able to dodge the rupture with ease. This is not to say that ganks never happen, but I'm going to be mostly applying pressure, rather than getting kills.

Picking up 3 levels on his E early, along with some attack speed, helps clear jungle camps without using mana, important when you can't be assured of having blue buff (and barring a mana-less mid, you can't be). CDR is a must, especially early when you want to be Feast-ing as often as possible for max stacks. After that, tankiness becomes something you should look into.

Unfortunately, this game I was under a -lot- of pressure to have a ganking presence, so much so that I ended up having periods where I would not farm, instead just running from one lane to the next, throwing spells at people and pushing them back, and then pulling away to repeat the presence. The opposing jungler (on Diana) was seriously putting tons of pressure on every lane (like, she tried to gank bot at level 2 and then backed off, tried to gank mid, then backed off and tried to gank top, all in the first couple minutes.) and it didn't help that at around 20 minutes or so the other team's grand total of 9 kills (we had 13) were all on Katarina. I get atomized quickly in pretty much every fight (like, I swear, diana and kat both jump on ME, bursting me into oblivion and then Kat ult starts and chews our entire team to bits, since I had the -only- hard CC). By the time I started looked into tanky my team had fallen significantly behind, and FF'd before I could finish any of my items (I was working on a Rylai's at that moment)

[TheShrike]

Philo+HoG gives you some tankyness and mana regen, plus giving you some gold during those running-around times. Wit's End is good on Jungle Cho, as is Aegis. At this point I'd be looking into either a Kindlegem or finishing Randuin's, and Frozen Heart is always a good option. Never underestimate Shurelia's, either. Without solo lane farm, you cannot build enough items to be both threatening (with damage) and tanky (unless hilariously fed), so you need to go tanky. Luckily, tanky items and gp/10 finishers both tend to give CDR, so CDR tanky is really easy to build from the jungle.

[Godskook]

Except I didn't really go AP?

Maybe I just have the wrong mind set for jungle Cho.

My thought process for him is that Jungle Clears > Lethal ganks.

1.You didn't build durability or AP? What the hell were you building?

2.No. With E-focus, Cho's clear speeds are fast enough that he doesn't need to build additional items solely to help his clear speeds. Items that incidentally help are good, but usually for reasons other than improving clear speeds. Wit's end, AP or CDR for example are good options here. Make sure you're positioning for full-camp AoE(hardest on Wraiths, where you gotta take a few steps out of your way to get the right line-up until you're really big).

3.What masteries are you running on him? Indomitable+Bladed Armor is basically core on most junglers these days, since it improves both your sustain and clear speeds so well, especially early game, when it matters most.

Because while a devastating rupture is devastating, above a certain skill level, anyone with boots is going to be able to dodge the rupture with ease. This is not to say that ganks never happen, but I'm going to be mostly applying pressure, rather than getting kills.

You can land Ruptures on Cho, but to do so, you gotta be leading with something else, like lane-CC or Feral Scream. Zoning them into it also works. Its a lot harder to dodge Rupture when you're silenced and being chased by red-buff Cho than it is if Cho opens with Rupture.

Unfortunately, this game I was under a -lot- of pressure to have a ganking presence, so much so that I ended up having periods where I would not farm, instead just running from one lane to the next, throwing spells at people and pushing them back, and then pulling away to repeat the presence.

Never sacrifice your leveling and farm entirely for the sake of ganking, especially if you're not securing kills. You wind up counter-jungling yourself, and making you useless and squishy later on.

GP5s really help solve this issue, allowing you to gank more often without butchering your gold supply in the process. You are running 1-2 GP5s on your jungler, right?

The opposing jungler (on Diana) was seriously putting tons of pressure on every lane (like, she tried to gank bot at level 2 and then backed off, tried to gank mid, then backed off and tried to gank top, all in the first couple minutes.) and it didn't help that at around 20 minutes or so the other team's grand total of 9 kills (we had 13) were all on Katarina. I get atomized quickly in pretty much every fight (like, I swear, diana and kat both jump on ME, bursting me into oblivion and then Kat ult starts and chews our entire team to bits, since I had the -only- hard CC). By the time I started looked into tanky my team had fallen significantly behind, and FF'd before I could finish any of my items (I was working on a Rylai's at that moment)

In that game, with those two, I'd let that happen once before trying to prioritize heavy MR(probably BV or more likely FoN, but I really like FoN personally).

Also, Rylai's is a *REALLY* bad tank item on Cho. Never buy it for that purpose. You want resists to capitalize on his massive health steroid and decent sustain.

-------------

Personally, when I played him ranked(~1300 Elo), I was a fan of the GA rush(after boots+GP5x2) on him. That plus Merc's made him quite tanky, and the GA-proc helped preserve his ult-stacks. Also, while 'normal' counterjungling wasn't great on him(lack of mobility), if I was good with timers, the 13 and 18 minute buffs were insanely easy to swipe before the other jungler checked them, cause Smite+Feat = dead buff camp really fast.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Is this legit? It's a handy function if it is, but I want to be sure it's above board.

[Math_Mage]

1.I'm running 21/9/0 on him, just cause of my standard habit with ADCs. I had wondered last game if he was able to go 21/0/9 for the MP5. Good to know. What else do you pick up over there?

2.Overall, that's the skill progression I've been using too, but how're you starting him? I've been going QEW so far.

Yeah, that's standard. Ez is pretty slippery, so the 9 in defense isn't as necessary; the 9 in utility is for more poking and the buff mastery.

I've been told to finish bloodthirster before finishing triforce up. Thoughts?

If you go Phage route, you usually want to just finish Trinity, since it gives about as much net DPS as BT/Phage.

[TheShrike]

Is this legit? It's a handy function if it is, but I want to be sure it's above board.

Riot knows about it and have not supported or condemned it, but rather said along the lines of "We don't support it, and no promises that we won't break it in a patch, but we won't ban you just for using it."

[TechnOkami]

That actually looks pretty cool, IMO. I'd totally download and use it (but I'd sadly take it off if Riot shook their finger).

[mrcarter11]

I can say it works fine, I downloaded it within a week of when I started playing. Saves a good bit of time imho.

Quick note about it, leave the download folder, as you have to run the updater every time you want to use the program. It takes all of, 3 seconds to run though, so not a big deal.

[McDouggal]

hmmm... For my champs where I just stack item X 3 times, it's not as useful. For Support though... That would save so much time after each blue pill it's not even funny.

[PersonMan]

I imagine people who do things like AP Yi, AD LB, etc. would be quite happy being able to click on the things they actually want instead of having to go through the tabs to get there.

[mrcarter11]

Well, what's honestly pretty cool about it, is you can set different lists of items.

So you can set three Yi lists. AD, AP, and AP conversion.

It's handy for sure.

Also, in the same vein, what's Riot's opinion on user created champion skins? Do you get banned for them, or punished in general?

[PersonMan]

Also, in the same vein, what's Riot's opinion on user created champion skins? Do you get banned for them, or punished in general?

I think the general policy is "If you use 3rd party stuff that doesn't give you an unfair advantage, don't complain if a patch breaks it, but we don't really mind".

At least, I can't imagine them banning people for something like Darth Vader Amumu, since Riot seems to be made up of people who aren't insane.

[mrcarter11]

I love that skin.. And thanks, I was just curious if they had ever stated their policy on it.

[Eldariel]

I think the general policy is "If you use 3rd party stuff that doesn't give you an unfair advantage, don't complain if a patch breaks it, but we don't really mind".

At least, I can't imagine them banning people for something like Darth Vader Amumu, since Riot seems to be made up of people who aren't insane.

Custom skins are only client-side; others can't even see them. So I'm pretty sure Riot 100% doesn't mind. Hell, they seem to keep the infrastructure to facilitate them intact; they could easily just pack everything if they wanted it to not be possible.

[Winthur]

It was the most absurd solo queue game of all time

I'm honestly doubtful.