Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan

[Morph Bark]

Regarding the Sasuke Retrieval arc thing, someone at Arlong Park had a theory that I found interesting:

Kishi fully intended to kill off Neji and Chouji there. But then the editors stepped in and told him that he couldn't. And that's when Kishi stopped caring.

Sasuke is Frieza?!

[LaZodiac]

If you don't like the "war is hell sometimes people die" mentality, I'd stop reading Naruto for awhile. It's in a war arc and it's doing the war arc in the way that one would imagine is the sterotype of "correct" for a war arc. IE, people can and will die and the horrors of war will be shown off occasionally. Though not as bad as it would be if any of the child ninjas were involved.

Anyway, in the terms of "normal human durability" I remind you that human beings have been shot in the head by bullets and survived, and people have survived spikes and machetes through their heads. If a normal human being can get lucky enough to have this:

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And survive perfectly fine except for a lost eye, then Neiji can survive getting an arrow through the shoulder.

*Note, it's an X Ray, not an actuall graphic picture

[Somewhere]

You know what? If someone came from the future to hack Sasuke up near instantly, I wouldn't complain.

Edit: Mirai-Konohamaru arriving from the future out of nowhere to interrupt the fated Naruto vs Sasuke duel as it starts and then instantly annihilating Sasuke.... I want this now.

[leafman]

To add to lord_khaine's point, Tsunade's slug summon was going to heal her from being cut in half by a tree until she ordered it to help the other Kage instead. If a lesser slug summon has the potential to repair a severed aorta, inferior vena cava, and all the critical organs in the midsection of a human before the patient dies, I think we can call their medical tech equivalent to magic. Granted we didn't see that happen, but it was suggested something on that scale was possible.

[Aotrs Commander]

If you don't like the "war is hell sometimes people die" mentality, I'd stop reading Naruto for awhile.

Not a problem, since I don't read the manga, and I'm frag knows how many years behind with the anime. To be fair, I think the UK DVD releases are now about parity with the rate they are doing the translation; but even so, I suspect it will be a long time before I'm up to this point in the anime, where it will either all undone by resurrection magic jutsu (which is beginning to look like it's nearly as common as it is in D&D ¹) or it'll have all happened and I can make the decision to simply stop buying the series at a point of my convieniance or something, if it's really bad. But like I said before, I won't, at this stage, throw too much judgement out, because he has faked us out before. And a good DM never tells you the truth until after the encounter.

(I will give Kishi credit that until now, he has managed to convincingly pull off near-death (Sasuke retreival) and spaced out the actual character deaths sufficiently that each was meaningful enough to be eventful. So I do honestly have some small hope that he won't blow that all away at the last minute for the sake of a) it's end, kill everybody or b) preaching Death/War is a Bad Thing².

Though if he kills half the supporting cast and Sasuke doesn't die a horrible, horrible death, then Naruto wil have achieved the surprising fate of having nearly as dismally dreadful an ending as Mass Effect 3.)



¹And good for it, I have no problems with a setting that's prepared to give death a good solid Melvin once in a while.

²People die all the time, loved ones or not, war or not. Trying to make this a Thing for the sake of reader/watcher involvement I find inevitably has the opposite effect, and far from drawing me in, pushes me out. If you kill a character as a literary device, chances are, because I'm not stupid, I'll see it as literary device.

[The Unborne]

²People die all the time, loved ones or not, war or not. Trying to make this a Thing for the sake of reader/watcher involvement I find inevitably has the opposite effect, and far from drawing me in, pushes me out. If you kill a character as a literary device, chances are, because I'm not stupid, I'll see it as literary device.

I'm confused. How is having people die for the sake of reader/watcher involvement any different from having people resurrected for the sake of reader/watcher involvement?

Regardless of whether or not death is some sort of plot device, resurrection itself screams of being deus ex machina; ya know, one of the more well-known literary devices.

Maybe I'm wrong but it looks like you favor one over the other (character death versus character resurrection) when they're really both more-or-less the same.

[Aotrs Commander]

It is not so much character death per se, (though I am, I'm afraid, not sold on the "someone has to die because reals" as a defense for anything), but multiple character deaths in rapid succession.

I have yet to say ANYTHING in ANY media of ANY type where multiple character deaths in a short space of time have managed to be anything other than eyeglow-roll-inducing and immersion breaking to me, regardless of reasons, be they "realism", thematics, literary devices or anything else. (No, I don't watch slasher movies, before you ask...)

However, I've said my piece, and as the full scope is yet to be revealed, I'll kvetch no more on that subject.

[LaZodiac]

The only time any character needs to die is to show that we're getting really serious. As an example, look at Bleach's latest attempt at doing the war plotline. Not a single named character died except for Yamamoto. Meanwhile, the enemies suffered massive named character loss. We now can't really take them seriously.

Meanwhile, sure a lot of un named guys have died in Naruto's war plotline, but until the mantle of "important named characters always survive" was torn away, we (or atleast I) never really felt like they might be a SUPER SERIOUS threat. Sure, they'd get heavily wounded, but they'd win and stand back up. Now, when the dust settles, I don't know who's going to be able to stand back up after this, and that's making it tense.

It helps that Neiji's last moments where done REALLY well.

[Aotrs Commander]

The only time any character needs to die is to show that we're getting really serious.

See, I think that is the absolute WORST reason to kill a character, period. Killing a character just to show how badass the bad guys are? That's literally Marvel-thinking, right there. Sorry, but I'm never going to accept that as a valid reason.

[LaZodiac]

See, I think that is the absolute WORST reason to kill a character, period. Killing a character just to show how badass the bad guys are? That's literally Marvel-thinking, right there. Sorry, but I'm never going to accept that as a valid reason.

It's not the ABSOLUTE BEST time, but it can have it's moments. Personally, I like how One Piece handles it's character deaths. They only die when the death would have signifigent meaning. Thus why only three characters have actually died within the manga, ignoring flashbacks.

Anyway, I think Neiji's death was good, and you don't, and we can agree to dissagree. Though I do wonder, when do you think is the right time to kill a character, if any?

[Aotrs Commander]

It's not the ABSOLUTE BEST time, but it can have it's moments. Personally, I like how One Piece handles it's character deaths. They only die when the death would have signifigent meaning. Thus why only three characters have actually died within the manga, ignoring flashbacks.

Anyway, I think Neiji's death was good, and you don't, and we can agree to dissagree. Though I do wonder, when do you think is the right time to kill a character, if any?

I generally don't, as it means you can no longer tell any further stories with that character (and I don't even particularly like heroic sacrifices).

However, it is, like the existance of romance, something I am prepared to accept if done correctly, for the right reasons and in this case, very, very sparingly. Two character deaths in short sucession do not make the impact twice as effective. One death is a tragedy; two and it is already well on it's way to being a statistic.

From the sound of it, we may have already reached this point (as I say, I know only what you guys have said or implied here: note that I do not know the details of Neji's death (nor do I need to find out until such time as the anime DVDs each that point).)

Final judgement, as they say, I will withhold until the dust has settled, as I did with Kakashi and Hinata during the invasion arc.



I look at it this way. My favourite books (LotR, Belgariad/Mallorian, Thrawn trilogy, Lost Fleet series) killed two in the former, one or no characters; Proper Avatar killed one (Jet, sorta offscreen) and Babylon 5 killed one major (that was not mandated by cast changes, which is fair enough) - Kosh - and one recurring and two or three others at points set after the time of the series ending. If they can do it...

(And, as a massively lesser note, in twenty years of DMing, only four PCs have ever died under auspices, and two of them were PC-inflicted.)

Note that I don't count non-permenant deaths as "character death" in the manner in which we are speaking.

[Morph Bark]

A character death is not at all interesting or good in and of itself. The impact it has on other characters, or what the character does just prior to their death, that is what is the big deal.

[Drolyt]

A character death is not at all interesting or good in and of itself. The impact it has on other characters, or what the character does just prior to their death, that is what is the big deal.

There are other ways for a character death to be good storytelling, but it also depends on what kind of story you are telling. I mean, if this were a film about World War II and none of the main characters died it would be practically insulting, but it is a shonen manga. Despite Naruto's attempts to show the real hardships of war it really doesn't come off that way. For example, while I think Kishi tried at least a little to show just how hard war is on a child soldier it mostly just makes it look like being a child soldier is awesome (as long as you have ninja powers I guess). So now people start dying en masse, it just doesn't work. Harry Potter had the same problem, try to be dark and mature all you want, it just never had that feel and so all the deaths at the end came off more like a 14 year old trying to be dark and edgy than anything deep and emotional. I guess my point is that atmosphere matters.

Edit: Another trait Naruto shares with Harry Potter is that it is very emotional when major characters die.

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Jiraiya, Sirius. The Third Hokage, Dumbledore. Asuma, Hedwig. And so on. What was unmoving is when a bunch of names were rattled off at the end.

[Morph Bark]

There are other ways for a character death to be good storytelling, but it also depends on what kind of story you are telling. I mean, if this were a film about World War II and none of the main characters died it would be practically insulting,

So if a movie about World War II had deaths in it, even amongst the main characters, but none of them had an impact on the other characters and the lead-up to the death featured no decision of self-sacrifice or reflection on themselves or their impending death, those would be good deaths in your opinion?

Also, there are plenty of WWII movies without death (though it is likely still implied, of course). The Anne Frank movies, for instance.

Edit: Another trait Naruto shares with Harry Potter is that it is very emotional when major characters die.

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Jiraiya, Sirius. The Third Hokage, Dumbledore. Asuma, Hedwig. And so on. What was unmoving is when a bunch of names were rattled off at the end.

Eh, Hedwig's death wasn't emotional at all in my eyes. She had been less and less prominent over the course of the books/movies. The book did it slightly better than the movie though. I do agree with the other deaths, though the Third's and Dumbledore's were primarily shock value, since while the Third had had his screentime and epic battle, there wasn't that much to establish him as a person different from other characters at that point, and Dumbledore was going to die anyway, just much slower.

[Ramza00]

@Aotrs Commander may I please suggest a book series for you :P

[Drolyt]

So if a movie about World War II had deaths in it, even amongst the main characters, but none of them had an impact on the other characters and the lead-up to the death featured no decision of self-sacrifice or reflection on themselves or their impending death, those would be good deaths in your opinion?

I didn't say that. It still has to be done well. One of the hardest things in storytelling is to portray the scale of these tragedies, to treat it as more than a statistic. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try, even if Naruto fails quite miserably.

Also, there are plenty of WWII movies without death (though it is likely still implied, of course). The Anne Frank movies, for instance.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. In my heading I was thinking a war movie, with soldiers and stuff.

[VanBuren]

Yes, it does mean something. Because people in Naruto have been shown to be analogous to actual humans. Thus, would die when injured in ways that actual humans could be killed.

This is the same manga that gave us a guy who could rip out his own bones and use them as weapons, right? A guy who became immortal by putting his heart into a puppet? And a guy who stole other people's powers by sewing their hearts into his already Frankenstein's Monster-esque physique? Everything about Orochimaru?

That these things are even possible speaks to how unlike actual humans they really are. This is the most nitpicky of critiques.

[Somewhere]

Wait, when exactly did Kimimaro start showing off his bone powers? I'm starting to buy the Kishi stopped caring after Neji & Chouji dying got rejected theory.

[Traab]

Wait, when exactly did Kimimaro start showing off his bone powers? I'm starting to buy the Kishi stopped caring after Neji & Chouji dying got rejected theory.

We first saw it when naruto and he fought in the big open field. I honestly am not sure if there was a rescue hinted at for neji and crew before then. I know he showed off his abilities well before they were both officially going to be ok. Meaning, they may have been picked up by medics in the field before kimmimaru started swinging, but they certainly werent healed before then.

[LaZodiac]

Wait, when exactly did Kimimaro start showing off his bone powers? I'm starting to buy the Kishi stopped caring after Neji & Chouji dying got rejected theory.

I can't buy that theory for a second, because Kimimaro died of Tuberculosis if I recall, which is a bone disease. That seem's to sensible to be a "I don't care anymore" moment.

I'm also a big fan of Kimimaro, of course.

[Somewhere]

Hmm, I thought tuberculosis is a lung disease, hence the bloody coughing.

And I was thinking of what VanBuren listed for superhuman physiology.
What's the most egregious physiology shown, prior to Chouji & Neji being set up to die? Sakon & Ukon's fusion schtick? Spider dude having 6 arms? Orochimaru keeping a sword inside him?

This physique thing is just a symptom of my interpretation of the theory, though.

Hell, might as well paste what the guy said which interested me:
"To this day I STILL think he had actually planned to have Choji and Neji die during that old arc, the sorytelling and symbolism and intent were too strong, and the saving revivial too cheap, unforeshadowed and last second. That he'd planned to kill them sand show off some stakes and gravitas, and then was told he couldn't let the 12 year olds bite it. Thats when the entire tone of the series changed and he stopped caring."

Playground denizens, would you agree, or disagree on whether the series did in fact change tone entirely, and if so, at that point?

[LaZodiac]

..right, TB is a lung disease. Forgot that X_X

Also, atleast for Orochimaru, his sword inside him is....VERY SLIGHTLY justified, in that he actually has a SNAKE inside him, who just summons the sword from wherever it is, out of it's mouth.

Anyway, Naruto has always been not very realistic with how it's treated it's people. Look at Zabuza, for instance. I do think the tone of the series changed a bit, though I can't say for sure when, but I think even with that change it was still Naruto.

[Aotrs Commander]

I think the trouble with Neji and Chouji dying in the retrieval arc is it would have completely destroyed ANY credibility for Naruto's motivation bringing Sasuke back - and of the village not having explicit standing orders to execute him after he didn't come back with Naruto, regardless of Naruto's feelings. Because at that point, Leaf Ninja - and Naruto's friends - would have died for no reason. And far fewer readers would have had sympathy for Sasuke at that point. If Naruto had persisted, he would likely have done so alone, as I doubt anyone except Sakura would have been willing at that point, and I don't doubt Shikamaru, Asuma, the Akikimichi and Hyuuga clans would have played merry hell if Sasuke wasn't immediately declared a missing-nin. If they'd died, a line would have been crossed (a line which Sasuke pretty much crossed earlier, but not one Naruto could have justified willfullu ignoring without looking completely irrational (more than he already is with Sasuke) and likely isolating him from all his other bonds. (Because near-death and actual death are too very different things, and Shikamaru has shown what happens when you get him REALLY fracked off, and Chouji's actual death would have done it.)

(It would - and maybe has, there's been enough Naruto fanfic it may have already been done - make an interesting AU from that point, but I suspect it would also be much darker, and Naruto would definately be losing friends over it if he kept insisting Sasuke should be brought back alive.)

If the intention was to actually rescue Sasuke, it would have been (not from my perspective but more generally) more acceptable, as Sasuke would have stood to learn something from it, i.e. that he does have comrades who were prepared to come rescue him, and that he isn't alone (and build on what he'd gained from the Chunin Exams and dealing with Gaara).

As I have said before killing characters off to show "it's all serious, honestly" or "war and death is bad and futile and people die" is terrible way to go about business, especially in a (relatively light-hearted, or at the very least, non-dark) show about magic ninjas who wear orange and have superpowers; the same as it would be to in-depth character deconstruction and socio-political commentary in the A-Team. It can be done, but that doesn't mean that it is a good idea.



The only tonal shift I can see in Naruto (the anime) up until the point I've reached is a slight - and only slight - shift towards the more serious and maybe slightly introspective in the timeskip.

@Aotrs Commander may I please suggest a book series for you :P

Go on, then.

[Ramza00]

As I have said before killing characters off to show "it's all serious, honestly" or "war and death is bad and futile and people die" is terrible way to go about business, especially in a (relatively light-hearted, or at the very least, non-dark) show about magic ninjas who wear orange and have superpowers; the same as it would be to in-depth character deconstruction and socio-political commentary in the A-Team. It can be done, but that doesn't mean that it is a good idea.

We are not reading the same manga/anime then. Yes much of Naruto is light-hearted because our main pov is a child, and furthermore this child is idealistic, naive, and full of passion and energy. But even then we see many dark parts in the manga.

While the first few chapters of the manga are silly it is not long before we are introduced to the land of waves arc. In this arc we are shown

• Ruthless assassins that will not quit until they complete their mark or are dead
• Showing that Naruto and the other children are not ready as warriors and are not willing to kill (Naruto for the most part still hasn't killed anybody, defeated yes but not kill.)
• Showing how dark the world is, the ninja system encourages violence and death for it is a zero sum game.
• The village of the mist to teach this to their ninja have them kill their own brothers and comrades as a ritual of ascension.

After we are brought back from the lands of waves we are entered in the chunnin exams, the first part of the exams are dark

• We are shown that the chunnin exams are tools of war. It isn't just teaching your genin survival skills it is also showing off your personal armada of weapons.
• All the villages (including the land of fire) have no problem let genin die during the battle royale/survival mode
• Victory isn't just defeating your opponent, victory is actually killing them so they don't slit your throat during the night or have a reversal. You get what you want and you eliminate all obstacles.

The individual matches and final exams weren't dark at all for they were chaperoned and the referee could end the match if it was obvious one side had completely k.o. the opponent.

But the final matches ended in the surprise attack and the invasion. Now everyone is fighting for their life and even someone as mighty as the hokage can and will die.

and so on.

So we have two dynamics in this series, the light hearted child/teenage ninja who personality is compared to the brightness and warmth of the sun. And the world itself an environment so deep and dark that the world is always alternating between hot and cold war.

Go on, then.

You would love the book series called a song of ice and fire by george rr martin, the first book is called a game of thrones.

:-P

[Aotrs Commander]

You would love the book series called a song of ice and fire by george rr martin, the first book is called a game of thrones.

:-P

I am aware of that series, and even made reference to it last page, in the sense that I would sooner regrow my eyeballs then remove them with a rusty spoon than read that series, since nothing I have ever heard about it suggests I would be even distantly interested in it.



As for the rest of it; remember this: I enjoyed the filler arcs. (Heck, at least one of the filler arcs I thought was better than some of the main plot arcs...) Just let that sink in a moment...!

[INoKnowNames]

Sasuke is Frieza?!

I fell out of the conversation due to a rather busy regular life. -Wut-.

I know his superform was Andro as -heck-, but still.

Also,

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who wants to take bets on how long people are going to actually stay dead this time?

If the 10 Tails get taken over somehow, another mass revive could still be in the books...

RANDOM PICTURE IS RANDOM!

Or at least would have been if it didn't have a swear in it. -.-

[Somewhere]

A Naruto movie will be coming out in 2014.
http://www.tv-tokyo.co.jp/anime/naru...e14/index.html

And according to what the twitter world says of Kishi's Jump Festa interview...
"2014 movie. More deaths coming. God's seat. Team 10 development. Hyuuga development. Kishi's pic was cool."

[LaZodiac]

A Naruto movie will be coming out in 2014.
http://www.tv-tokyo.co.jp/anime/naru...e14/index.html

And according to what the twitter world says of Kishi's Jump Festa interview...
"2014 movie. More deaths coming. God's seat. Team 10 development. Hyuuga development. Kishi's pic was cool."

Now, will that movie be canon or not. I wonder. Also, interesting Jump Festa information. I honestly kinda hope that, Hinata's attempted sacrafice, combined with Neiji's sacrafice, makes Naruto realize that Hinata, you know, is in love with him and much better then Sakura.

[INoKnowNames]

I honestly kinda hope that, Hinata's attempted sacrafice, combined with Neiji's sacrafice, makes Naruto realize that Hinata, you know, is in love with him and much better then Sakura.

..... by now, Naruto has to know that. Impossible for him to not get that by now, right?

Sakura

• still likes another man
• lied dirrectly to Naruto's face about one of his core issues (and he called her out on lying)
• almost got her team killed over said man
• and is destined to be with Rock Lee anyway.

Hinata

• has loved Naruto since the day she met him
• was technically -the- first girl, since Naruto had that bit of filler involving him fighting some of her bullies
• has endlessly supported Naruto enough for him to speak out on her behalf
• and, of course, came to his aid even when the entire rest of the village just watched, even if it would have cost her her life, confessing her love and putting said life on the line to defend it.

Someone's getting assassinated if Hinata doesn't end up with Naruto.

[darksolitaire]

Sakura

• and is destined to be with Rock Lee anyway.

This particular line amused me more then it should. Now, if only this would happen with Sakura and Lee not having any interaction on screen for extra awkwardness.