Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan

[Drolyt]

No matter how much you learn a language after the critical years, you're not going to perfect its linguistic grammar like a little child will. There are biological reasons for this and can be ever so slightly analogous to the biological capabilities of the Uchihas. Sasuke has the genes of the Sage running through his veins, there's no reason for him not to be able surpass Lee's years of training in a short time-span.

Heck, they're only 12-14 at that point. Years of practice can only do so much. I've seen wrestlers practice since they were little toddlers get beat by someone who just started the sport for fun.

There also those kids you always find in school that hardly need to study or do all of the practice problems in math and physics that still ace the exams just like the person who spent three hours a day practicing.

Hard work is important (don't get me wrong), but you can't idealize it.

Except we are talking about years of practice vs a single month. I'm not saying that never happens in the real world, especially in sports you can get a huge advantage just from your body type or conversely be screwed because of a disability, but the Sasuke thing didn't make sense.

[Traab]

He didn't master the speed completely, IIRC. He surely didn't have the sort of stamina Lee had when using that speed.

You're arguing against what actually happened in the manga. You can call it whatever you want, but it happened. There might be a thousand ways to rationalize it, but you can't argue that it is not possible in the Naruto-verse to simply increase your speed so you can perform techniques you already mastered due to your Sharingan.

'Sides, who's to say it took Lee years to master only his speed? It probably took him longer for the techniques and endurance. Given that it took Sasuke only a month to increase his already trained speed, I'm guessing that's exactly the case.

Sasukes EYES could barely follow lees speed, in fact, didnt lee move faster than he could see while setting up that final move? You dont go from being so much slower you cant do diddly squat to defend against it, to just as fast in a month. And yes, I know its canon, but its still a big lipped alligator moment. It comes from out of nowhere, makes absolutely no sense, then is never mentioned again. If you want to know where big lipped alligator moment comes from, watch nostalgia critic fern gully on you tube.

[LaZodiac]

The solution to all of this is Uchiha Talent. All Uchiha gets a starting feat that they are unnaturally gifted and thus able to learn and become stronger much, much quicker then they ever should.

[The Unborne]

Sasukes EYES could barely follow lees speed, in fact, didnt lee move faster than he could see while setting up that final move? You dont go from being so much slower you cant do diddly squat to defend against it, to just as fast in a month. And yes, I know its canon, but its still a big lipped alligator moment. It comes from out of nowhere, makes absolutely no sense, then is never mentioned again. If you want to know where big lipped alligator moment comes from, watch nostalgia critic fern gully on you tube.

I didn't realize Sasuke never showed an inclination of copying Lee before...I mean how else could it come out of nowhere?

Regardless. Sasuke just needed to bolster his speed in a month. It's not like he was learning to shape his chakra on par with a bijuu or anything in three weeks. All he needed was enough speed to make the techniques work and use his hax-filled eyes to anticipate all of Gaara's actions, which he could react to since Gaara has never showed the type of speed Lee had.

[Drolyt]

The solution to all of this is Uchiha Talent. All Uchiha gets a starting feat that they are unnaturally gifted and thus able to learn and become stronger much, much quicker then they ever should.

Of course that is the solution, but that a) makes the story weaker and b) undermines one of the story's main morals.

[LaZodiac]

Of course that is the solution, but that a) makes the story weaker and b) undermines one of the story's main morals.

Yes, it does. Not saying it doesn't

[darksolitaire]

The solution to all of this is Uchiha Talent. All Uchiha gets a starting feat that they are unnaturally gifted and thus able to learn and become stronger much, much quicker then they ever should.

More like few hit dices of monstrous humanoid.

[Kato]

You know, guys, if you complain about people in months gaining strength others haven't gained in their life time you need to stop reading about any Shounen ever...
Not saying it's not disappointing but it's just a general rule.

[LaZodiac]

I'm quite aware it's a general rule, and infact I am quite aware that Sasuke being naturally talented while Lee, who trains his entire life, is kind of not that good is the ENTIRE POINT of Lee's character. Doesn't mean it's not a touch bit annoying. I can totally live with it though, since Rock Lee's spin off chibi series is amazing and awesome and it replaced the Bleach anime when the Fullbringer arc was so bad the anime got cancelled.

I'm just saying it could be pulled off a little better, is all. Nothings wrong with that.

[Drolyt]

You know, guys, if you complain about people in months gaining strength others haven't gained in their life time you need to stop reading about any Shounen ever...
Not saying it's disappointing but it's just a general rule.

Just because it is genre convention doesn't make it good storytelling. The ridiculous powerups Sasuke and Naruto get are a severe weakness of the story in my opinion. Although I guess the only alternative is for the storyline to span a much larger length of time and show all the characters growing up and becoming real adult soldiers and... wait, that would be awesome. So yeah, I don't think complaining too much is worth it, and Naruto is still pretty good overall, especially given the target demographic, but pointing out the flaws every now and then isn't a bad thing either.

[Traab]

You know, guys, if you complain about people in months gaining strength others haven't gained in their life time you need to stop reading about any Shounen ever...
Not saying it's disappointing but it's just a general rule.

Its not the ridiculous power up that bugs me, its the one time only use of this ability. Imagine, if you will, that sasuke was in one of his fights and its going badly. He is outmatched, and unable to win based off his established abilities. Suddenly he pulls out a new ability, susanoo. There was never a hint of the potential for this ability to exist, no rumors, no mention of some "ultimate defense" or a suggestion on how the &^%$ he made it happen. He uses this ability to absolutely curb stomp his opponent and win the fight. Then afterwards, he never, ever uses this ability again. He never mentions it again, noone else in the naruto universe ever wonders why he doesnt use it again, and instead brings out other random abilities that he DOES use over and over again. Susanoo sees a single use then vanishes forever with no reason ever mentioned or even suggested.

Can you honestly say that this wouldnt bug you? THAT is my problem with sasuke managing to copy lees speed. It is a single use of an ability that is never truly explained, it happens only once despite the sheer volume of sharingan users in the naruto world and the extended history of the uchiha clan we learn over time, and then is never mentioned again.

[Codyage]

You do have a valid point with Sauske copying Lee's move, but it brings up the flaw that Sauske is horrible at Taijutsu. When he was near out of chakra he lost that fight hands down.

But he didn't necessarily steal Lee's move. All Sauske did was knock his opponent into the air. Using Lee's technique as a basis. Unless you are referring to another instance of Sauske using that technique. But from what I saw, it was a last ditch effort, and he lucked out.

Also Naruto has his own rendition of that initiation where he makes a bunch of clones to kick Kiba in the air.

EDIT: I rewatched that fight. Lee kicks him up into the air as soon as he activates his sharingan. But that is just to knock him away. Later in that scuffle he is uses it again, but the second time is when he gets behind Sauske.

Also I had just rewatched the fight in the English dub, and in it Sauske refers to Lee's technique by name, and Lee comments "Good eye." So it may be even more possible that Sauske has seen that same technique somewhere else, and just used his Sharingan on Lee to encode it.

[Kato]

First: I missed a "not" in my last statement earlier. Edited.
I guess it wasn't obvious that I consider it a general weakness of the stories... but it makes things difficult in other ways if it's not used. You'd have to start with a really powerful character or make the story last really long or give some (usually cheap) explanation for why he is so strong.

Its not the ridiculous power up that bugs me, its the one time only use of this ability.

That is what bugs you? Not that it's not bad but I thought the problem was about the ease with which "more main" characters gain power compared to others, in general.
While it is another annoying feature it... it doesn't hurt me as badly.

[Traab]

As the poster said, ridiculous power ups are a staple of this type of anime. If people getting incredibly strong in silly short lengths of time bugs you, you are watching the wrong type of anime. If Kishi had made the uchiha where fighting them is literally like fighting yourself, meaning they can copy everything including physical and mental capabilities, then that would actually be kind of cool with the whole underlying know your enemy know yourself type of message involved in defeating them. But he didnt. The sharingan can copy moves, it can copy jutsus, but aside from that single instance, it is never implied that it can copy physical capabilities. Had lee used chakra to move that fast then sure, that would have been a fine use of copying ability. But he doesnt, thats pure muscle. So it bugs me. Its basically a small plot hole.

One of the interesting things about fanfiction is, I tend to overlook most plot holes and stupid things when I personally read the source material. But when you read fanfiction, those flaws get ground into your mind over and over again. As an easy example, Harry Potter. Time turners could solve virtually any problem if used properly and yet noone ever uses them before or after book 3. Magical contracts. Either you can confund a magical contract and force anyone to do anything you want or they lose their magic, or harry was setup by dumbledoore and everyone in that room. If its option A, then write up this contract, "I, Tom Riddle, swear upon my life and magic that I am a little muggle girl." cast confundus on it, and boom, tom is magicless and truly dead. Game over.

So when I first watched sasuke use lees speed, i didnt think much of it. Just more uchiha overpoweredness. But as I read more stories all the bits and pieces kept getting shoved under my nose until I finally realized, holy crap! That makes no sense and even if it did it was one of the most nasty things I have ever seen someone do to a supposed comrade.

[Kato]

"The poster"? Are you refering to me?

You know, it might just be bias but the time turner thing in Prisoner of Azkaban really, terribly bugs me. It is such a *insert terrible cursing* idea which would break the whole world which is why usually time travel is treated very, very carefully and not "here have a magic toy so you can do more studying"... (I really can't recall that magical contracts thing but I'm not a dedicated Potter fan)

I've stopped reading (most) fan fiction years ago which I guess is more healthy for my sanity. But this one act of Sasuke using his eyes to gain Lee's speed... Really, it's just Kishi's poor writing. Okay, maybe Sasuke actually was able to read Lee's chakra and thus knew how he could use his chakra to improve his own speed. That's... well, still pretty stupid but while it's a throwaway trick it's not something that entirely destroys the story. It's - to me - just another part of Uchiha haxx which isn't as focused on. Maybe it is used constantly but nobody ever mentions it(?)

[Codyage]

But here is the thing Sauske didn't copy Lee's speed. We are referring to the fight when Sauske fought one of Orochimaru's goons correct?

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All Sauske did was copy Lee's initiation move. In retrospect he didn't even need the sharingan, because Naruto does the exact same thing except with shadow clones.

Here is a link to the fight I believe you are referring.

http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-67-page-18.html

This page into the next chapter is the jutsu. On Page 18, the current page, we can see him running to Sauske. So Sauske doesn't even have to move. He just waits for him to come before knocking him into the air.

After that Sauske jumps up and gets behind him. If you consider the anime as a trustworthy source, Sauske doesn't flash behind him. He is shown jumping all the way up to him before performing the rest of the attack.

This even shows Sauske is nowhere near as fast as Lee. All Sauske did was use Lee's technique to get him into the air, he just sat and waited until his opponents guard was open. He didn't rush up to him.

I believe this should clear up any problems? Or is there another instance where Sauske uses Lee's Speed?

[Douglas]

You know, it might just be bias but the time turner thing in Prisoner of Azkaban really, terribly bugs me. It is such a *insert terrible cursing* idea which would break the whole world which is why usually time travel is treated very, very carefully and not "here have a magic toy so you can do more studying"... (I really can't recall that magical contracts thing but I'm not a dedicated Potter fan)

Have you read Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality? Among other things, it makes a good attempt at treating the Time Turner's capabilities properly.

[DiscipleofBob]

But here is the thing Sauske didn't copy Lee's speed. We are referring to the fight when Sauske fought one of Orochimaru's goons correct?

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All Sauske did was copy Lee's initiation move. In retrospect he didn't even need the sharingan, because Naruto does the exact same thing except with shadow clones.

Here is a link to the fight I believe you are referring.

http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-67-page-18.html

This page into the next chapter is the jutsu. On Page 18, the current page, we can see him running to Sauske. So Sauske doesn't even have to move. He just waits for him to come before knocking him into the air.

After that Sauske jumps up and gets behind him. If you consider the anime as a trustworthy source, Sauske doesn't flash behind him. He is shown jumping all the way up to him before performing the rest of the attack.

This even shows Sauske is nowhere near as fast as Lee. All Sauske did was use Lee's technique to get him into the air, he just sat and waited until his opponents guard was open. He didn't rush up to him.

I believe this should clear up any problems? Or is there another instance where Sauske uses Lee's Speed?

Sasuke VS Gaara during the Chuunin Exams.

EDIT: It's worth noting that Sasuke had to train extensively in order to be able to get to the point where he could match Lee's speed. So now, Sasuke can't arbitrarily copy raw power that he cannot achieve on his own, but he can, in this example, memorize subtle differences in how Lee moves more efficiently, how he uses his own muscles, to move similarly.

[Traab]

"The poster"? Are you refering to me?

You know, it might just be bias but the time turner thing in Prisoner of Azkaban really, terribly bugs me. It is such a *insert terrible cursing* idea which would break the whole world which is why usually time travel is treated very, very carefully and not "here have a magic toy so you can do more studying"... (I really can't recall that magical contracts thing but I'm not a dedicated Potter fan)

I've stopped reading (most) fan fiction years ago which I guess is more healthy for my sanity. But this one act of Sasuke using his eyes to gain Lee's speed... Really, it's just Kishi's poor writing. Okay, maybe Sasuke actually was able to read Lee's chakra and thus knew how he could use his chakra to improve his own speed. That's... well, still pretty stupid but while it's a throwaway trick it's not something that entirely destroys the story. It's - to me - just another part of Uchiha haxx which isn't as focused on. Maybe it is used constantly but nobody ever mentions it(?)

The contract thing was the goblet of fire. The whole tri wizard tournament. They basically said, "Its a magical contract and because your name came out, you have no freaking choice but to compete or terrible things will happen." The fake moody even flat out said how he did it. He cast a powerful confundus charm, (gee, guess what that charm does) and tricked it into thinking there was a 4th school with only harrys name listed on it. So it boils down to either everyone was wrong and you CANT be forced into a magical contract you never signed, or you can and the entire story should have ended 5 minutes later once the light dawned in their heads on what this means. That story had so many plot holes and things that flat out didnt make sense. The events at the end of book 1 with quirrel should mean

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the horocrux in harrys head should have exploded into flames and vanished when he was still a freaking baby.

thats honestly one of the bigger ones imo.

[ZeroNumerous]

Orochimaru's slide to evil revolves around his obsession with forbidden knowledge as a means of attaining immortality due to the death of his parents.

Ya, I know, but I don't really care because it's not nearly interesting enough.

Are you reading a different manga than me?

Welcome to sarcasm. It's great here, let me show you around.

[Drolyt]

Welcome to sarcasm. It's great here, let me show you around.

That did occur to me, but 1) it is very difficult to tell on the internet and 2) I've gotten quite used to people saying things that don't make sense on the internet.

[Somewhere]

No notable conflicts between Panda and Viz this week. So with that out of the way...

The whole shinigami mask and Orochimaru getting his arms' functionality back thing and another Hokage Edo Tensei really bothers me. Was the mask or the workaround's existence ever foreshadowed?
And it's a kick in the balls to the 3rd's sacrifice back in Part 1. And the village-wide funeral for said sacrifice. This just ruins them for me.

[LaZodiac]

I don't believe it was ever elaborated on, ever. Unfortunately.

[Nekura]

No notable conflicts between Panda and Viz this week. So with that out of the way...

The whole shinigami mask and Orochimaru getting his arms' functionality back thing and another Hokage Edo Tensei really bothers me. Was the mask or the workaround's existence ever foreshadowed?
And it's a kick in the balls to the 3rd's sacrifice back in Part 1. And the village-wide funeral for said sacrifice. This just ruins them for me.

Well some fan fiction writers dislike Minato and claim he stole Uzumaki sealing techniques from Kushina to summon the death god to seal kyuubi. But before this nothing official hinted that the Uzumaki had anything to do with the shinigami. Other then the Uzumaki being the best at seals at that being the best seal we know about. At least it was better than the seal for the one tail we weren’t told much about the seals for the other biju.

Apparently Oro can easily get his hands on DNA from powerful people to summon from the dead and even was able to steal the technique to bring them back in the first place. So if he had the knowledge on how the shinigami seal worked or was able to get info on it easily it doesn’t make sense why he didn’t get his arms back before. Even if being able to summon the shinigami was an Uzumaki technique Kushina shared with her husband and or the 3rd hokage the mask just hanging out at the Uzumaki compound is odd. We didn’t even know of an Uzumaki compound anywhere near Konaha.

But for me it’s no more out there than Madara being able to escape the VOTE with Senju DNA and create Zetsu clones quick enough to keep himself alive. Madara was never previously stated to have that kind of knowledge and we haven’t been told of him using any such skills for anything else. Where as Oro who was the creepy mad scientist type spent years trying to give someone the wood ability.

[Codyage]

Hmm, now that I think about it.

Orochimaru when he had the Hashirama cells could have used that for the 1st and 2nd Hokage originally because they were brothers. They share DNA. As for the fourth Hokage, well whose off spring did Orochimaru fight in the Chunin Exams Forest? Naruto's blood, hair, anything could have been the DNA needed for Minato.

[Drolyt]

Wasn't half the Kyuubi's power sealed in the Shinigami? We now have a way to get souls out of there, so...

[Morph Bark]

...now that you mention it, Oro has got a prime opportunity for mayhem right there with that.

[The Unborne]

I'm wondering if Oro can get his hands on that chakra. It seemed his arms went straight to him, so that might suggest it could travel all the way back to Kurama.

Well, since no more than five chakra/soul things came out, I guess Oro has control of what escapes...and maybe didn't choose for Kurama's Yin chakra to come out for whatever reason. Eh. We'll probably know this week.

Or Minato still has the Yin chakra sealed inside himself because he's too l33t for these snobs.

[Ramza00]

Well some fan fiction writers dislike Minato and claim he stole Uzumaki sealing techniques from Kushina to summon the death god to seal kyuubi. But before this nothing official hinted that the Uzumaki had anything to do with the shinigami. Other then the Uzumaki being the best at seals at that being the best seal we know about. At least it was better than the seal for the one tail we weren’t told much about the seals for the other biju.

1) We know the Uzumaki specializes in seals (naruto #500)
2) We know that Kushina taught Minato many seals including the eight tetragram seal (naruto #500)
3) We know that Minato discussed his plan with Kushina about using the death reaper seal and the eight tetragram seal (naruto #503) before performing said actions. Kushina is familiar with death reaper seal for she asked why that seal.
4) It isn't really made clear but in naruto #503 Minato says he can use the death reaper seal but the jinchuuriki host can not. It is not really made clear what he meant with this. A) The host of the Jinchūriki can't use the dead reaper seal on his sealed best at the same time for they are already bounded. B) A Jinchūriki host can't peform the seal on others.

So no direct connection is cannoically made but it sure looks like Uzumaki is connected with Dead Reaper Seal or Minanto was inspired by Uzumaki sealing techniques.

[Kato]

Hmm, now that I think about it.

Orochimaru when he had the Hashirama cells could have used that for the 1st and 2nd Hokage originally because they were brothers. They share DNA. As for the fourth Hokage, well whose off spring did Orochimaru fight in the Chunin Exams Forest? Naruto's blood, hair, anything could have been the DNA needed for Minato.

Please tell me you know that is not how DNA works...

Ya, I know, but I don't really care because it's not nearly interesting enough.

But an un fullfilled love story is a much better motivation?