League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold

[Renegade Paladin]

Really? My brother wanted to learn how to play, so I helped him set up an account last week. After killing Dragon, it wanted him to go for baron.

Well, it never has for me. I probably dive straight for the Nexus before it gets around to it; I think the side quests are triggered by character level.

[TheShrike]

Really? My brother wanted to learn how to play, so I helped him set up an account last week. After killing Dragon, it wanted him to go for baron.

It mentions that Baron is there, but doesn't make you go for it.

Also, I should mention that literally every character in the game can solo Baron, so there is that.

[NineThePuma]

Standard armor stacking rammus can't. Haven't really tried AP rammus though.

[TheShrike]

I never said every build can solo it. 2 Bloodthirsters, 2 Phantom Dancers, Infinity Edge and Zerker's Greaves. Red and Green pot if you feel like it. Any character with that build can solo Baron.

[Eldariel]

ANYWAYS.
I was thinking.
Why is CDR so weird? Making it stack additively and capping it is just odd. Nothing else in League, to my knowledge, works similarly. So, I was pondering what things would look like if CDR stacked multiplicatively, was uncapped, and had its high-end values were lowered (to, say, max 15% CDR per item). It's just a thought experiment and I'm not suggesting that it be implemented, but does anyone have any thoughts?

I've brought this up before. I think that would solve the fact that currently CDR "overflows" way too easily randomly wasting stats on many items (and making some item combinations unfeasible for silly reasons).

It would also be in line with like armor, MR, percentile penetration and just about every other percentile system and it would make CDR itself more sensible (right now you really just want 40% if you're going for it since the gains from 30%-40% are so much greater than the gains from 0%-10%).

It would require some ability checks for abuse (any champion with inherent cooldown reducing effects - Xin, Skarner, Zilean, etc. - could be potentially broken) and yeah, CDR values would of course have to be reassigned (the 25% on Nashor's would likely be too strong if you could cross the 40% barrier, even if it were inefficient), but I think it would ultimately lead to a better game and make the system more sensible and CDR more interesting.


The reason nobody currently builds CDR Boots aside from Vlad is that those who need CDR can get it easily from better items, for instance. Blue buff and blue elixir are big culprits too.

Also, the current CDR cap really screws Vilemaw over; half the time the buff does nothing and the other you don't really care too much about your cooldowns. The times it's fully utilized and the effect is desirable are extremely few (though of course, for e.g. Ezreal it's a brutally powerful buff).

[ChaosOS]

Here's the thing. Why bother getting just one CDR piece at that point? Individual CDR levels are so low that it would be a waste just to get one, instead you either don't bother or you stack it to max amount. 8 or 12% CDR is relatively insignificant, while 60% is extremely effective. Basically, absolutely enormous system change with minimal benefit.

[Godskook]

ANYWAYS.
I was thinking.
Why is CDR so weird? Making it stack additively and capping it is just odd. Nothing else in League, to my knowledge, works similarly. So, I was pondering what things would look like if CDR stacked multiplicatively, was uncapped, and had its high-end values were lowered (to, say, max 15% CDR per item). It's just a thought experiment and I'm not suggesting that it be implemented, but does anyone have any thoughts?

1.Ryze and Skarner would be ridiculously bad or good, depending on how much CDR was readily available. I don't think there's a way to make multiplicative scaling work with their concepts.

2.Attack Speed works exactly like CDR, except AS is designed such that you'll never hit the cap in practice. Also, the numbers are represented very weirdly, such that realizing how it actually works is quite difficult.

[Mirrinus]

Still waiting on Nami, Riot.

The parodies just write themselves. I've already seen like 3 different versions, including that awesome Iron Stylus one.

[Temotei]

ANYWAYS.
I was thinking.
Why is CDR so weird? Making it stack additively and capping it is just odd. Nothing else in League, to my knowledge, works similarly. So, I was pondering what things would look like if CDR stacked multiplicatively, was uncapped, and had its high-end values were lowered (to, say, max 15% CDR per item). It's just a thought experiment and I'm not suggesting that it be implemented, but does anyone have any thoughts?

It would be interesting, at least. I bet it could be done well, though the current system is done well, in my opinion, so changing it would be weird. Still.

[LordShotGun]

There would still be a soft-cap much in the way that Tenacity is soft-capped at around 65%, and most items would have 8%, 10%, or 12%-ish CDR. It could easily get out of hand if CDR values remained too high, and you could get like 7 sources of -15% CDR (which is like 68% CDR).

In an era where game mechanics and UIs are being changed to make the game more intuitive, I think your "soft-capped" CDR idea is just too complicated.

Granted it is interesting to us the experienced players but for newbies it would add another layer of impenetrable game mechanics. I mean it was only after nearly my first hundred games in lol before I understood what CDR even was

[Math_Mage]

Still waiting on Nami, Riot.

The parodies just write themselves. I've already seen like 3 different versions, including that awesome Iron Stylus one.

That thread notes one of my pet peeves about Riot's project management team: they pay very little attention to maintaining variety in appearance through their project pipeline (that is, don't release Jayce-Darius-Draven and then Syndra-Zyra-Elise, mix up the order a bit). This is separate from my peeves about art design in general, though.

[Godskook]

I've brought this up before. I think that would solve the fact that currently CDR "overflows" way too easily randomly wasting stats on many items (and making some item combinations unfeasible for silly reasons).

What I'd like to see is to have CDR have an alternate scaling effect once the cap is reached. Say....the equivalent of 1:1 as AP and 1:0.5 AD-for-skills? This would allow champions who stacked CDR to still benefit from it after hitting the cap, while not being too overpowered.

I'd like something similar with Crit chance, but I'm pretty sure Riot is moving away form being able to achieve 100% Crit chance in most cases.

[NineThePuma]

100% Critchance Gangplank says Hi.

He carries his sword so that he can punch towers.

Also: New Morde Art. It's Freakin Awesome.

Also, IronStylus is pretty awesome, I think. Here's why

[Renegade Paladin]

1Also: New Morde Art. It's Freakin Awesome.

Appropriate.

[Tychris1]

Appropriate.

TIME

TO

SHREEEEDDDD!?!?!?!?!!!

I whole heartedly approve of that art update, fingers crossed that the other ones get updated aswell. I want manly manly well designed Abs to go with the flowing greasy hair on my Rocking Lord of Pestilence and Metal damnit!

[Forrestfire]

Does anyone know how I can convince one of my 'friends' to...

Well, look:

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/29188379#history

He insists that clarity is necessary to not run out of mana.

I think most of the problem here, though, is that he's really arrogant about his supposed skill level as a result of being carried from level 15ish... He refuses to learn

And Godskook, I can't use a Learning Stick.

[Godskook]

And Godskook, I can't use a Learning Stick.

And I keep telling you, you're not using a big enough stick.

[Math_Mage]

Does anyone know how I can convince one of my 'friends' to...

Well, look:

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/29188379#history

He insists that clarity is necessary to not run out of mana.

I think most of the problem here, though, is that he's really arrogant about his supposed skill level as a result of being carried from level 15ish... He refuses to learn

And Godskook, I can't use a Learning Stick.

There are a few things you can do, depending on what your friend will be receptive to.

If he's mathematically inclined, you can math things out for him, especially for things like Hextech Vlad. Of course, were he mathematically inclined, this probably wouldn't be an issue.

If he's liable to respect the authority of what good players do, find some videos of good players playing Blitzcrank and show him how they play without running out of mana. Find, oh, every respectable guide ever and show him where they say not to take Clarity.

If he's a "This build works for me" type, and you don't want to wait for him to figure this stuff out on his own, you pretty much have to mirror-match him and explain what you're doing differently from him at every step.

If he's really too big for his britches, put him in an inhouse with efdf.

[sonofzeal]

Does anyone know how I can convince one of my 'friends' to...

Well, look:

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/29188379#history

He insists that clarity is necessary to not run out of mana.

I think most of the problem here, though, is that he's really arrogant about his supposed skill level as a result of being carried from level 15ish... He refuses to learn

And Godskook, I can't use a Learning Stick.

Oh geeze.

Clarity, and Philo's, and Archangel's, on Blitz? On someone who's at Summoner Level 30?

Sigh.

Well, even ignoring that Clarity is anathema......



First, perhaps you should inform him that Manamune is indeed a thing that exists, and characters going in with AD masteries and an eye towards TriForce would be far better served by that over Archangel's. Conversely, if he really wants Archangel's, AP masteries and a Lich Bane will take him further.

Second... well, many champions do need something for mana, but generally only one major item (except Ryze of course). Archangel's / Manamune are appropriate for some, and Chalice/Grail are great for many others, but if you're building one of those you shouldn't take Clarity, and vice versa. Philo's is small enough not to really apply, but if you're going to rush a mana item immediately after then a different gp10 is probably worth your while.

Third... he seems to be playing mostly supports, but not supports who use their skills on allies for the most part. If he's playing as this kind of support, he should only ever be taking Clarity if his lane partner is absurdly mana-intensive (Vayne comes to mind), rather than as a go-to. And even then, he should seriously consider ASKING his lane partner what THEY want him to pack.

[ex cathedra]

Standard armor stacking rammus can't. Haven't really tried AP rammus though.

why would a champion with the second best armor steroid in the game stack armor? HP gives you significantly more survivability in most scenarios.

1.Ryze and Skarner would be ridiculously bad or good, depending on how much CDR was readily available. I don't think there's a way to make multiplicative scaling work with their concepts.

well, we know that multiplicative CDR scaling a la Ez/Skarner/Ryze/Xin works because it's already implemented, and so while it would quite possibly need to be retuned it doesn't seam impossible by any stretch. probs not worth the effort, though. remember that CDR wouldn't actually work any differently, it's just that the rate at which it's obtained would level out.

2.Attack Speed works exactly like CDR, except AS is designed such that you'll never hit the cap in practice. Also, the numbers are represented very weirdly, such that realizing how it actually works is quite difficult.

it's pretty simple if you think of auto attacks as an ability whose cooldown is equal to the reciprocal of your attack speed. at least, that's probably how it works but i'm sleepy. this is true, tho

In an era where game mechanics and UIs are being changed to make the game more intuitive, I think your "soft-capped" CDR idea is just too complicated.

Granted it is interesting to us the experienced players but for newbies it would add another layer of impenetrable game mechanics. I mean it was only after nearly my first hundred games in lol before I understood what CDR even was

CDR will still be CDR and it won't work any differently. tenacity already uses the exact system that i described, if you weren't aware. one could argue that it would be more intuitive if "CD reduction" and "CC reduction" mathed out in the same way. all that this would do is keep the value of additional CDR relatively stable regardless of how much CDR you already have. as it stands, going from 0% CDR to 20% CDR is distinctly less significant than going from 20% CDR to 40% CDR, even though you're getting the same amount of +%CDR each time. understand?

If he's really too big for his britches, put him in an inhouse with efdf.

i beat efdf in a 1v1 so i'm pretty much the best right now

Here's the thing. Why bother getting just one CDR piece at that point? Individual CDR levels are so low that it would be a waste just to get one, instead you either don't bother or you stack it to max amount. 8 or 12% CDR is relatively insignificant, while 60% is extremely effective. Basically, absolutely enormous system change with minimal benefit.

because... CDR is often tacked on to other valuable stats? there aren't just "CDR items", boots aside. FH gives tons of armor and the best aura in the game, there's a new glacial shroud item, spirit visage got buffed, locket got buffed, there are like more than have a dozen entirely new CDR items, shurelya's is still overpowered, etc. very few champions aim to just itemize CDR. they tend to pick up stat X, stat Y, and CDR. It's also readily available via runes, masteries, and auras, abilities, and several buff objectives. i'm not saying it's the greatest idea, and it does have flaws, but the same is true of the current system. hitting the CDR cap can be frustratingly easy and it's probably a bit too strong considering the way it stacks at the moment.

[Forrestfire]

I normally don't play with him because he's awful, but from what I've experienced and been told, he plays supports because the rest of the group puts him there in an attempt at damage control.

He thinks he's really good as Tryndamere, and often wants to go top if no one else has asked, but thankfully I'm generally not there for those games...

EDIT: Clarity is a meditating man? I always thought it was a ball filled with lightning...

[dgnslyr]

Today I realized the Clarity icon is a meditating man and not a tiny Veigar head. I think I may have problems.

As for your little problem involving Mr. Clarity, there are always the three types of arguments: ethos, pathos, and logos. Since logos didn't work, try ethos: No pro player ever runs Clarity, and all write it off as a terrible summoner spell. Of course, this may not penetrate his ego, so pathos? Every time you run Clarity, PETA puts down another cute puppy. Is that horrific enough?

[ex cathedra]

Today I realized the Clarity icon is a meditating man and not a tiny Veigar head. I think I may have problems.

most summoner icons are tiny people, so... yeah.

[TechnOkami]

I like that efdf idea the most, MathMage... I'd certainly like to spectate that if it happened.

[McDouggal]

Of course, this may not penetrate his ego, so pathos? Every time you run Clarity, PETA puts down another cute puppy. Is that horrific enough?

You owe me a new keyboard. (then again, I should know better than to be taking a drink when I'm reading this forums.) (Also, please understand that I'm not laughing at cute puppies being put down. I'm laughing at how over-the-top it is.)

In all seriousness: As someone who mains Blitz, unless a teamfight has been going on for over 2 minutes, I don't have mana troubles, running Exhaust/Flash. I usually don't even have Tear. I just know when to W, and when to use Q&R (just pop E whenever it comes up. 25 mana isn't horrible).

[TheShrike]

i beat efdf in a 1v1 so i'm pretty much the best right now

I saw it happen, it was glorious.

[Temotei]

He insists that clarity is necessary to not run out of mana.

The real problem here is that Vlad game where he apparently refused to take clarity. Correct that behavior.

Uh, but yeah. Try to not target him and rather be diplomatic, suggesting that clarity is less-than-optimal. Don't say things like, "Clarity is bad, don't take it" (even though it is) because that makes people think that for taking it, they are bad (even though they probably are). Point: Accidentally targeting the person makes them stop listening almost regardless of who they are. Suggesting that exhaust would save his life more often or get him more kills than clarity might prompt him to begin to change his mind.

Anyway, good luck. If he's as hardheaded as he sounds, it'll be a lot harder than this post makes it sound.

[Drascin]

Well, Clarity isn't always uselss. But yeah, it's a rather specialized spell. I've for example taken it a fair amount as Maokai support when supporting Caitlins - the increased poke from saplings and Cait Qs is very noticeable when you don't have to be so worried about mana conservation. It also then helps with recovering from a skirmish and psychologically pushing randoms a bit - not being OOM can make the difference between half your team doing a B after a won skirmish where they should be pushing a tower or two or not.

(I also tend to take it a fair amount in mids if I can't rely on getting blue from jungle, because there's a handful of blue-dependent mids where just Chalice isn't anywhere near enough to keep up).

But yeah, definitely not a "mainstay" spell. Rather, it's something you pick in particular situations - for your average support, Exhaust is much more valuable.

[Godskook]

Well, Clarity isn't always uselss. But yeah, it's a rather specialized spell. I've for example taken it a fair amount as Maokai support when supporting Caitlins - the increased poke from saplings and Cait Qs is very noticeable when you don't have to be so worried about mana conservation.

I....can actually see this, but support Mao really wants flash for getting himself out of trouble and also really wants exhaust.

It also then helps with recovering from a skirmish and psychologically pushing randoms a bit - not being OOM can make the difference between half your team doing a B after a won skirmish where they should be pushing a tower or two or not.

Solving a problem that's also solvable with a ping is not a good justification for using a summoner spell. Especially when better summoners will help you create those situations(or even better ones!) more often.

(I also tend to take it a fair amount in mids if I can't rely on getting blue from jungle, because there's a handful of blue-dependent mids where just Chalice isn't anywhere near enough to keep up).

Who the hell are you playing? Anivia with Chalice, Mp5 masteries and lvl 11 out regens her wave clear, and we're working with 890g here. Dorans Rings, Catalyst proc, runes or other Mp5, and we're golden even sooner. Swain has mana sustain. Kassadin....not playing Kassadin is a better option(to running clarity on him), imho, as is running ignite/flash on him, since he really needs both those spells.

I could see AP Kog, except AP Kog takes the Teaching Stick to his jungler if he isn't passed blue buff by 3rd blue.

[Eldariel]

Here's the thing. Why bother getting just one CDR piece at that point? Individual CDR levels are so low that it would be a waste just to get one, instead you either don't bother or you stack it to max amount. 8 or 12% CDR is relatively insignificant, while 60% is extremely effective. Basically, absolutely enormous system change with minimal benefit.

No, that's how it is currently. There's no reason to get less than 40% CDR if you're getting CDR since every additional piece of CDR is more efficient than the previous. Making it multiplicative (that is, basically diminishing returns for each additional piece) would keep the value of each CDR item built constant so you could build as much as makes sense for your champion without losing out on effective value in terms of items built.

In an era where game mechanics and UIs are being changed to make the game more intuitive, I think your "soft-capped" CDR idea is just too complicated.

Granted it is interesting to us the experienced players but for newbies it would add another layer of impenetrable game mechanics. I mean it was only after nearly my first hundred games in lol before I understood what CDR even was

*shrug* It's no more complex than armor or MR. All these stats could be explained in the tutorial anyways.

What I'd like to see is to have CDR have an alternate scaling effect once the cap is reached. Say....the equivalent of 1:1 as AP and 1:0.5 AD-for-skills? This would allow champions who stacked CDR to still benefit from it after hitting the cap, while not being too overpowered.

I'd like something similar with Crit chance, but I'm pretty sure Riot is moving away form being able to achieve 100% Crit chance in most cases.

Something like that could also work. The biggest thing that irks me about CDR currently is that it's the only stat that'll cap itself without you intentionally striving for it and then you're unable to utilize many built-in effects that grant said stat for "free" in the game (also one of the major problems with Soul Shroud currently; you need to agree before game that it'll be built or many people are bound to miss out on the aura).