afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

[Lord_Gareth]

And now for a question series I expect you'll like!

Eating is purely pleasure for almost all Outsiders, but that doesn't mean they don't pursue that pleasure. What plane has the most exotic cuisine? Most attractive to mortals? Most adventurous? Are there any notable planar fruits/vegetables/plants that might see demand as rare delicacies on the Prime?

[Fortuna]

A question or some harking back to 1e AD&D, which I don't imagine you see very often. Scattered through my few bits of material on that edition there are one or two references to a Plane of Concordant Opposition. Does such a plane still exist, under a different name? What of its properties and traits were/are of particular note? Is it an Inner plane or Outer, and does it have any particular obstacles to passage?

[AuraTwilight]

That would be the Outlands, the Outer Plane of Neutrality, upon the Spire of which you would find Sigil hanging above.

[Fortuna]

Aaah, I had wondered. The rest of my questions stand.

[AuraTwilight]

It's fairly easy to access, as far as Outer Planes go. The only real things of note is that there ate "Gate Towns" that teeter between it and the other Outer Planes, and the Spire in the middle. The closer one approaches the Spire, the more 'neutral' things get, to the point that at the Spire's base, even the gods are rendered as powerless as mortals. This is a suppression effect, so lost abilities and the like return as you distance yourself from the Spire.

Interestingly, the Spire is in the middle of the infinite Outlands, and the city of Cigil is at the top of the infinitely tall Spire, visible to the naked eye. Don't think about it.

[willpell]

Interestingly, the Spire is in the middle of the infinite Outlands, and the city of Cigil is at the top of the infinitely tall Spire, visible to the naked eye. Don't think about it.

How can I not think about it if it's interesting?

(Also I for one think that your presumable-typo there is more awesome than the accurate spelling.)

[AuraTwilight]

*Facepalms*

THE CITY OF TOBACCO. No wonder everyone in the Multiverse wants it.

[afroakuma]

A question or some harking back to 1e AD&D, which I don't imagine you see very often. Scattered through my few bits of material on that edition there are one or two references to a Plane of Concordant Opposition. Does such a plane still exist, under a different name?

As AuraTwilight said, Concordant Opposition is now the Outlands.

What of its properties and traits were/are of particular note? Is it an Inner plane or Outer, and does it have any particular obstacles to passage?

Many of its traits proceeded to the Outlands, but one of note was that it minimized random damage; a sword dealing 1d6+2 points of damage would always deal 3 damage; a 5th-level fireball would always deal 5. The same, however, was true of healing. The Spire lacked that name, though it did exist, and was variously perceived as a column of stone or marble, a waterspout, an endless tree, tower or tornado. It was also unapproachable; you could not get any closer to it than 100 miles. Before the gate-towns, Concordant Opposition had a simple ring of flat white discs inset at points 1000 miles from the Spire, which were portals to the Outer Planes usable by concentration. A significant difference is that on Concordant Opposition, the rilmani and other native beings were unknown - the plane of total neutrality was populated only by outside beings.

Concordant Opposition was an Outer Plane by most conventional definitions (the Outlands certainly is) though theorized to be some distinct and unique type of plane due to its connectedness and seeming lack of aligned character. It could be reached from the other Outer Planes or from the Astral Plane.

[Answerer]

Was there any canon story behind the change/replacement of the Concordant Opposition with the Outlands, or was it just a retcon?

[Arcanist]

Was there any canon story behind the change/replacement of the Concordant Opposition with the Outlands, or was it just a retcon?

A Wizard (Vecna) did it. (Honestly, I'm not even sure of this, because I don't recall when they started calling them the Outlands).

[Answerer]

I believe it was (considerably) prior to Vecna. Die, Vecna, Die! was the transition from 2nd to 3rd, and I'm pretty sure 2nd edition had the Outlands (they were certainly in Planescape: Torment, anyway ). Besides, fro just described the Concordant Opposition as lacking a Spire as we know it, which would basically make Planescape impossible (since there did not sound like there was a Sigil atop it).

[Chilingsworth]

Hmm, speaking of Vecna:

Not that this would have in any way helped him against the Lady, but why didn't vecna go through the process of becoming a demilich before trying for godhood? For that matter, why hasn't he made himself into a demilich since then?

More generally (and this might be beyond the scope of this thread) why are there any epic liches of any significant age? Why haven't they all transformed into demiliches? I mean, the ritual doesn't take that long, and should be well within the means of any 21st (or higher) caster level lich (NPC or otherwise.)

[Vorr]

Was there any canon story behind the change/replacement of the Concordant Opposition with the Outlands, or was it just a retcon?

In truth, a plane does not have an official name any more then any other place does. Everyone calls each plane by a different name.

But for the ease of use, everyone mostly agrees on one name...sort of.

[AuraTwilight]

Not that this would have in any way helped him against the Lady, but why didn't vecna go through the process of becoming a demilich before trying for godhood? For that matter, why hasn't he made himself into a demilich since then?

Probably because his discarded body parts keep turning into ****-off magical artifacts people keep using to try and mess with him. :P

[willpell]

Okay, let me in on the joke. If the Lady of Pain killed Vecna at the end of 2nd edition's run, why is Vecna among the gods in 3E? (That would be the in-setting justification, not the actual "Also Spracht Wotcothustra" answer.)

[MeiLeTeng]

Okay, let me in on the joke. If the Lady of Pain killed Vecna at the end of 2nd edition's run, why is Vecna among the gods in 3E? (That would be the in-setting justification, not the actual "Also Spracht Wotcothustra" answer.)

She didn't kill Vecna, he was just kicked out of Sigil. Aoskar is the deity that she killed.

[Fable Wright]

Okay, let me in on the joke. If the Lady of Pain killed Vecna at the end of 2nd edition's run, why is Vecna among the gods in 3E? (That would be the in-setting justification, not the actual "Also Spracht Wotcothustra" answer.)

Spoiler

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She killed his Avatar, which removed his foothold from Sigil. After which, he was ejected from the plane like all other Divine beings who try to set foot there.

Also, why did the Lady kill Aoskar and/or why did he try to enter Sigil?

[Larkas]

Spoiler

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She killed his Avatar, which removed his foothold from Sigil. After which, he was ejected from the plane like all other Divine beings who try to set foot there.

Also, why did the Lady kill Aoskar and/or why did he try to enter Sigil?

IIRC, Aoskar was a god of Portals. It made plenty of sense for him to try and control the city. She killed him basically because he got on her nerves and tried to ignore the city rules.

[afroakuma]

Was there any canon story behind the change/replacement of the Concordant Opposition with the Outlands, or was it just a retcon?

Concordant Opposition was a 1st Edition construct, as were planes such as Nirvana, the Happy Hunting Grounds, Gladsheim and Tarterus. They were all renamed for Planescape, and 3rd Edition's Manual of the Planes worked to marry the original and new names wherever possible.

1st Edition's planar materials refer to a long-past era; the War of Law and Chaos is an echo of that time in D&D when the only alignments were Lawful, Neutral and Chaotic. In that time, the Spire still existed, diverse though it did appear, and some older, less cosmopolitan form of Sigil would have been present, though it was unknown in that era.

Planescape did undertake retcons; 1st Edition's planar materials received more than a few (the Lords of the Nine tended to take on different names and aliases to prevent the game being associated with Satanism, for example) but in general it set the proper tone. Concordant Opposition does make a fitting prototype of sorts for the Outlands we know today.

[Answerer]

Was the Lady in Sigil at that time? Like, I figure she was a new character made for Planescape, but according to Planescape's history was she always there?

[afroakuma]

Hmm, speaking of Vecna:

Not that this would have in any way helped him against the Lady, but why didn't vecna go through the process of becoming a demilich before trying for godhood? For that matter, why hasn't he made himself into a demilich since then?

More generally (and this might be beyond the scope of this thread) why are there any epic liches of any significant age? Why haven't they all transformed into demiliches? I mean, the ritual doesn't take that long, and should be well within the means of any 21st (or higher) caster level lich (NPC or otherwise.)

Demiliches are the deteriorated physical remains of those liches that abandon the Material Plane to seek higher power elsewhere. Vecna's ambitions for power were entirely tied to the Material Plane, thus he remained and grew in power in that fashion. (Technically speaking, a demilich - in the sense of the floating, soul-eating skull - is nothing more than a sort of super-golem protecting a lich's astral connection as its soul roams elsewhere; liches don't aspire to discard all of their bodies but for a blinged-out cranium and then bop around playing Floating Dead Head).

[afroakuma]

Okay, let me in on the joke. If the Lady of Pain killed Vecna at the end of 2nd edition's run, why is Vecna among the gods in 3E? (That would be the in-setting justification, not the actual "Also Spracht Wotcothustra" answer.)

She did not kill him; when his foothold on Sigil was destroyed, she threw him out very, very, very hard. Seriously injured his divinity. And this is after she was subjecting him to the divine equivalent of being boiled alive in motor oil with flaming weevils jammed underneath your fingertips.

[Chilingsworth]

While we're still talking about liches: What about that one in Celestia? (Was it Melf? It's been awhile since I read Manual of the Planes.) Other than in said manual, has anything else been writen about his experiences in Celestia?

[afroakuma]

Spoiler

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She killed his Avatar, which removed his foothold from Sigil. After which, he was ejected from the plane like all other Divine beings who try to set foot there.

Also, why did the Lady kill Aoskar and/or why did he try to enter Sigil?

Aoskar was a power of portals and portal travel; to him, control of Sigil was a tantalizing goal. Nonetheless, she considered him pretty much beneath her notice. He really, really rubbed it in though: he encouraged his followers to spread his belief throughout Sigil, built a big temple there, established himself as the unofficial patron deity of the City of Doors, made the very use of portal keys a component of his worship (sort of like if a major world religion made putting gas in your car or milk on your cereal part of their worship in an attempt to convert people) and finally got people treating the Lady of Pain herself as if she were an avatar or manifestation of Aoskar's own greatness.

...and then a dabus took the robes of Aoskar's faith.

KABOOM. The temple exploded; destroyed by an epic cosmic force, leveling city blocks and leaving a nasty gouge in Sigil's cityscape - the Shattered Temple, which is still a civic landmark. The dabus who had dared to declare itself a cleric of the God of Portals stopped floating and was cast out of the Lady's service, becoming a tattoo artist nicknamed Fell. Thousands of his laity died, all of his clerics (other than Fell) were flayed by the Lady's shadow, and the deity himself turned up floating in the Astral Plane, with very suggestively-shaped blades stabbed through his corpse and a particularly horrified expression permanently twisting his face. Almost the entirety of his base of worship saw what had happened and abandoned his faith immediately; the authorities of Sigil have since criminalized the worship of Aoskar in the city as they do not want to see the Lady's ire drawn on such a scale ever again.

[Answerer]

Was this the beginning of the 'no gods' rule, or how else did he get in? I was under the impression that a power in Sigil would seriously unsettle the multiverse...

[Xefas]

Is there an all-encompassing Outsider adjective? Like "Fiendish" for Evil Outsiders, "Celestial" for Good Outsiders, "Axiomatic" for Lawful Outsiders" and "Anarchic" for Chaotic Outsiders.

I've tried "Otherworldly", but it's a little clunky. "Divine" has too many deific connotations when, as the Lady demonstrates, not all Outsiders want much to do with deities.

I feel like there might be an official one, and I've simply forgotten. If not, any suggestions?

[Arcanist]

Xefas reminded me of the question I wanted to ask today!

What are the outer planes stance (ha!) on the Sublime Way? Or Maneuvers in general? Do Outsiders even practice it? Or is it strictly a Prime thing?

[Answerer]

What are the outer planes stance (ha!) on the Sublime Way? Or Maneuvers in general? Do Outsiders even practice it? Or is it strictly a Prime thing?

Tome of Battle has the Naityan Rakshasa (native outsider), Reth Dekala (lawful evil outsiders; not devils?), and Valkyries (chaotic outsider). So there are those.

[willpell]

Xefas reminded me of the question I wanted to ask today!

What are the outer planes stance (ha!) on the Sublime Way? Or Maneuvers in general? Do Outsiders even practice it? Or is it strictly a Prime thing?

Until/unless Akuma can come up with a more official one, may I suggest "Exterran"? (This doesn't really make sense if your campaign world isn't named Terra, but you could fudge it as being close enough. The Xorns might object.)

[Larkas]

Xefas reminded me of the question I wanted to ask today!

What are the outer planes stance (ha!) on the Sublime Way? Or Maneuvers in general? Do Outsiders even practice it? Or is it strictly a Prime thing?

IIRC, the ToB's fluff imply that the Sublime Way is primarily a Prime thing, an invention of the mortal spirit. The outsiders mentioned by Answerer actually learned the techniques from the Primes.