afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

[afroakuma]

Is the Temporal Prime coterminious with the Astral plane? If so, why can't you just (Greater) Teleport to the time zone you want? If it isn't coterminious, where is it, and is Time Soil the only way to get there?

Goddammit why is this the time travel thread now?

Coterminous doesn't really apply in the case of Temporal Prime, which is a dimension more than a plane. Travel on Temporal Prime is "physical" in only the most abstract of senses, as you're not looking for a "place" so much as a section of an object. Greater teleport is possible in the abstract, but functions as a false destination result from teleport, which I shouldn't need to explain is quite pointless.

Where are the Guardians described? Are they in 3E at all?

Only on Chronomancer, so no.

They seem to be doing rather a poor job, IMO....

Your "O" is biased and insufficiently informed.

New question: Chaonds are descended from Slaads, but their unchaotic counterparts the Zenkyri are said to descend from "unknown beings of Law". Is there any information available about those progenitors?

It's thought that the zenythri's ancestors could be the mercane/arcane or even the vaati. There's no confirmation, in any event, so you're free to decide as you like.

The Zenkyri are doubly puzzling because the Fiend Folio gives us Mechaniques or whatever they're called, who are derived from Inevitables and don't get a Chaotic equivalent.

It's more likely they're descended from hierarch modrons, given what the book says about their ancestry. And the fact that Inevitables are robots.

Formians, Inevitables and Modrons. Law has a lot of races that could wear its Exemplar hat depending on the needs of your campaign.

You will never hear agreement from me on that, because you are misusing the term. Modrons are the exemplars of Law, full stop. Inevitables are robots, and formians are expatriate invaders.

On the Chaos side, we seem to have nothing but Slaads. I'm resigned to having to homebrew at least one Chaotic race to fill out my campaign's roster of 16 major Outsider races, but would prefer not to need to do two of them. Can you suggest any possible candidates?

You could use these at your own risk; they're a very early work I never got around to properly updating, and definitely need tweaks to make them safe.

[ShadowFireLance]

Goddammit why is this the time travel thread now?

So...It went from:
(Since I've been here)
Ravenloft--Devils(Baatorians)--Chronomancy---?

okay, Im just going to comission you...to do something...

Write the most discriptive, awesome, Longest, Most informitive post you can, On Demogorgon, Detailing everything you know, From any edition.
Random Question that will most likely get answered: Who/What is Mandrillagon and where can i find Info?
If you dont want to, Could you detail the Gaping Maw and Shadowsea?
Please?

Demogorgon:

Spoiler

Show

One of his heads is trying to kill the other one. I'd say he qualifies as mad even by demonic standards.

Demogorgon:

Spoiler

Show

Correction: Both heads are trying to kill each other, and become each other, at the same time.
he may be insane, But he still has sanity.

[afroakuma]

okay, Im just going to comission you...to do something...

Write the most discriptive, awesome, Longest, Most informitive post you can, On Demogorgon, Detailing everything you know, From any edtion, To 4e, If you do that...

I don't do 4E. Try a version of this request that omits that edition, or try a new request.

[ShadowFireLance]

I don't do 4E. Try a version of this request that omits that edition, or try a new request.

I fixed it...I just have a passing intrest in 4e, Mainly because it has pretty good art...

So..Yeah, Please?

[Arcanist]

he may be insane, But he still has sanity.

...

[ShadowFireLance]

...

Pineapples pop park purple plastic!

[afroakuma]

Random Question that will most likely get answered: Who/What is Mandrillagon and where can i find Info?

Mandrillagon is proof that Gary Gygax is utterly terrible at coming up with names. Not to mention concepts for demon lords. In Gygax's novel series, Mandrillagon is Demogorgon's brother. I'm going to pause for a moment to note that Demogorgon has two mandrill faces. I'm now going to walk away, shaking my head.

[ShadowFireLance]

Mandrillagon is proof that Gary Gygax is utterly terrible at coming up with names. Not to mention concepts for demon lords. In Gygax's novel series, Mandrillagon is Demogorgon's brother. I'm going to pause for a moment to note that Demogorgon has two mandrill faces. I'm now going to walk away, shaking my head.

And I am going to continue looking for stats online....
Thats pretty much what The WWW got me, so thanks!

[afroakuma]

And I am going to continue looking for stats online....
Thats pretty much what The WWW got me, so thanks!

Well, I mean, go right ahead, but he's not a canonical figure. The game doesn't recognize him, and neither do I. Good luck, I guess.

[Menteith]

How would one redirect or block the flow of souls to an Outer Plane? Could one "starve" an Outer Plane in this way?

[afroakuma]

How would one redirect or block the flow of souls to an Outer Plane? Could one "starve" an Outer Plane in this way?

You'd have to find a means to block them from entering the medium, and those are very hard to come by. Even then, that's not a specific embargo, that's a general embargo from one point source only. Ultimately, it's not a plausible thing to accomplish.

[ShadowFireLance]

Well, I mean, go right ahead, but he's not a canonical figure. The game doesn't recognize him, and neither do I. Good luck, I guess.

not a canonical..huh...
Well, I found the Bar-luga lord's stats, but no mandrillagon, welp, i guess im going to wait for the Demogorgon info and see if I cant do it myself.

[Menteith]

Would it be possible for one to render down other Exemplars into different forms, similar to what occurs with Nupperibos? Is there any official source on this occurring?

[afroakuma]

Would it be possible for one to render down other Exemplars into different forms, similar to what occurs with Nupperibos? Is there any official source on this occurring?

It might be; the process of creating lemures is essentially a very specific modification of a lawful evil soul with a foreign taint of lawful evil; equivalents might be possible to develop, though why anyone would I do not know. There is no official source on this occurring.

[Menteith]

It might be; the process of creating lemures is essentially a very specific modification of a lawful evil soul with a foreign taint of lawful evil; equivalents might be possible to develop, though why anyone would I do not know. There is no official source on this occurring.

Given the current situation on Mechanus in 3.5, I was considering the possibility of a LN foreign group co-opting the plane and altering incoming LN souls into a different, more agreeable form.

Is there a source which details the process of creating a lemure more thoroughly?

[TuggyNE]

You know, it's funny how many high-epic (30-50+) adventure ideas have been floated so far. (Cutting off souls to an Outer Plane? Ending the Blood War? Merging the Inner Planes?)

In that vein, I have one: is there any basis for being able to "steer" a demiplane around out of the Ethereal (or into the Deep Ethereal I guess), and if so how far could you go?

[willpell]

We established previously that the archdevils and the Big Three demon lords don't really care about the Blood War. Of various other stripes of demon lords, which would you say *is* most interested in defeating Baator, and would make that his priority if he somehow gained the upper hand in Abyssal politics?

I'm guessing that the answer on the diabolic side is Bel (you gotta pity a guy whose entire name fits in the name of one of the co-holders of an office four ranks above him...well, "below", but you know what I mean), but I don't know who his chaotic opposite number is. My best guess is maybe Baphomet? He's the most bloodthirsty one I can think of, but I figure he's probably pretty into staying in his maze. Kostchei is another big (pardon the pun) maybe, and I figure any of the obyriths might; I imagine if Miska returned, he'd be #1 on the will-pay-any-price-to-destroy-Law list, but he's pretty thoroughly out of commission for now.

So, of those who remain, which would you say would be the MOST committed to getting the job done? Because I still think the evidence suggests that the ONLY thing keeping Baator intact is the Abyss's collective refusal to buckle down and get the job done.

[afroakuma]

Given the current situation on Mechanus in 3.5, I was considering the possibility of a LN foreign group co-opting the plane and altering incoming LN souls into a different, more agreeable form.

That would be... difficult. You see, the "raw" soulform on Mechanus that Primus draws from isn't a soul shell like on Baator, or an ambulatory creature; it's his own energy pool, where the power to create a new modron resides fully. A new modron is automatically created whenever one is destroyed, and the pseudofinite numbers of the modron ranks mean Primus has a hefty stockpile of soulstuff to draw upon.

Formians aren't an exemplar race; unlike the baatezu, they don't spawn that way and never have. It's possible they could devise a way to convert souls to workers, but it would be difficult to call that "lawful neutral."

Is there a source which details the process of creating a lemure more thoroughly?

Fiendish Codex II has a brief bit of insight into it, incorporating lots of torture followed by being flung into a death pit to be devoured and extruded as a lemure.

You know, it's funny how many high-epic (30-50+) adventure ideas have been floated so far. (Cutting off souls to an Outer Plane? Ending the Blood War? Merging the Inner Planes?)

See, the awesome thing about Planescape is that you might bump into some of those adventures as early as 5th level.

In that vein, I have one: is there any basis for being able to "steer" a demiplane around out of the Ethereal (or into the Deep Ethereal I guess), and if so how far could you go?

Any basis? None that I can recall.

We established previously that the archdevils and the Big Three demon lords don't really care about the Blood War. Of various other stripes of demon lords, which would you say *is* most interested in defeating Baator, and would make that his priority if he somehow gained the upper hand in Abyssal politics?

That would be J'zzalshrak, the Errant General. There are a few demon lords such as Baltazo who have dabbled in the Blood War, though Baltazo himself is retired and pretty happy about it.

Because I still think the evidence suggests that the ONLY thing keeping Baator intact is the Abyss's collective refusal to buckle down and get the job done.

Well, you're wrong about that. As I've tried to point out to you.

[Larkas]

Could you please cite all the exemplar races, regardless of plane of origin? By this, I mean "general" race, like baatezu and tanar'ri, not Pit Fiends and Balors, yes?

[willpell]

It's thought that the zenythri's ancestors could be the mercane/arcane or even the vaati. There's no confirmation, in any event, so you're free to decide as you like.

Arcane?

And the fact that Inevitables are robots.

Oh like that would ever stop us. (Just checked the fiend folio, and it doesn't clarify who their parent is; I agree modrons are the more probable source, but there are probably more obscure creatures on Mechanus, and I find the idea of humans seducing Inevitables too funny not to run with, absurd as it is.)

You will never hear agreement from me on that, because you are misusing the term.

Fair enough.

I fixed it...I just have a passing intrest in 4e, Mainly because it has pretty good art...

Yeah, it's slightly better even than 3E in at least some places; one thing Wizards of the Coast has always been good about is hiring quality artists. Not that the old black and whites didn't have their charm, but still. Wotco's stuff pretty much steadily improved over the lifespan, with a few exceptions that might be just my stylistic preferences (the chapter headers of Tome of Battle are the chief example).

Mandrillagon is proof that Gary Gygax is utterly terrible at coming up with names.

He really is. Hence why my first act setting up a campaign is to go through the monster manual and rename everything.

In Gygax's novel series, Mandrillagon is Demogorgon's brother. I'm going to pause for a moment to note that Demogorgon has two mandrill faces.

Maybe Mandrillagon has two hyena heads instead? (Also, randomly, I almost typed "Mandragrillon" there; that might be a more interesting concept....)

A new modron is automatically created whenever one is destroyed, and the pseudofinite numbers of the modron ranks mean Primus has a hefty stockpile of soulstuff to draw upon.

Pseudofinite? :smallhuh:

If the numbers of modrons in the universe are fixed and always have been, then doesn't that mean the modrons' relative power is steadily eroding as other races continue to progress and expand? As in, there were say 5 quadrillion modrons at the start of time, and since then the populations of all other races have gone up and up and up but there are still 5 quadrillion modrons, and inevitably they're getting more and more outclassed?

It's possible they could devise a way to convert souls to workers, but it would be difficult to call that "lawful neutral."

REJOICE BROTHER FOR YOU ARE NOT BEING DESTROYED. YOU ARE SIMPLY TAKING YOUR PLACE IN THE BODY OF THE SUPREME LIFEFORM. TOGETHER WITH THE OMNISWARM YOUR IDENTITY WILL BE SUBSUMED INTO THE EVER-REPLICATING CONTINUUM AND THEREBY WILL ENDURE FOREVER IN THE PERFECT UNITY OF OUR COLLECTIVE WHERE YOU WILL ASSIST IN THE BLESSED ENDEAVOR OF CONTINUING TO FORGE THE ULTIMATE CIVILIZATION. WE WILL GIVE YOUR EMPTY LIFE MEANING AND ENSURE THAT YOUR LEGACY IS ETERNAL. YOU NEED NEVER SUFFER DOUBT OR WORRY AGAIN FOR ALL OF YOUR PROBLEMS ARE AT THEIR END NOW THAT YOU ARE ONE WITH OUR IDEAL HIVEMIND. REJOICE WITH US NOW BROTHER.

That would be J'zzalshrak, the Errant General. There are a few demon lords such as Baltazo who have dabbled in the Blood War, though Baltazo himself is retired and pretty happy about it.

Never heard of either. Are they wimpy-obscure or just unpopular-obscure?

Well, you're wrong about that. As I've tried to point out to you.

You explained why Baator's half-hearted defense has successfully endured against the tanarri's quarter-hearted offensive. With neither side's heavy hitters getting involved, the two foes are in all essence not really trying. Should the Abyss actually get its act together, almost-definitionally-impossible though that should be, simply the greater diversity among its troops and the sheer amount of physical space in which to muster them should provide an overwhelming advantage. They could assign 60 planes' worth of demons to attack each of Baator's layers, each of which has a handful of strategic sites, most notably the seat of power of its resident archdevil, who could be tied down by an arch-demon of comparable power while their respective minions duked it out. I'm really struggling to see how, if they didn't win, the demons couldn't at least inflict massive and irrevocable damage. Think Dis razed to the ground, or Jangling Hiter torn down and dropped in the swamp, or Fierna gets her favorite "personal appliance" confiscated, or Asmodeus breaks a nail. At the very least, this amount of havoc should ruin a goodly percentage of the carefully-crafted plans of devils and yugoloths alike. And the only thing I see stopping it from happening (apart from metaness) is the demons themselves, their refusal to recognize how thoroughly and persistently they shoot themselves in the foot.

[afroakuma]

Could you please cite all the exemplar races, regardless of plane of origin? By this, I mean "general" race, like baatezu and tanar'ri, not Pit Fiends and Balors, yes?

Haven't I already done this?

• Celestia: Archons
• Elysium: Guardinals
• Arborea: Eladrins
• Mechanus: Modrons
• Outlands: Rilmani
• Limbo: Slaad
• Baator: Baatezu
• Hades: Yugoloth
• Abyss: Tanar'ri

[Answerer]

Exemplars can change though, right? Like the Baatorians and Obyriths used to be the LE and CE exemplars, respectively?

[Larkas]

Haven't I already done this?

• Celestia: Archons
• Elysium: Guardinals
• Arborea: Eladrins
• Mechanus: Modrons
• Outlands: Rilmani
• Limbo: Slaad
• Baator: Baatezu
• Hades: Yugoloth
• Abyss: Tanar'ri

You did? Oops, sorry!

[afroakuma]

Arcane?

Mercane, in 3.X

Pseudofinite? :smallhuh:

There is a defined number of modrons in the universe... but what that number is is not certain, and may be increasing. They're technically a different kind of infinite; the infinite where there are only a fixed number at any given time, but there will always be that many even if they are destroyed.

Never heard of either. Are they wimpy-obscure or just unpopular-obscure?

Why not both?

Should the Abyss actually get its act together, almost-definitionally-impossible though that should be, simply the greater diversity among its troops and the sheer amount of physical space in which to muster them should provide an overwhelming advantage.

Except that it does not. Numbers are not everything, and the battle is not reducible in that fashion.

most notably the seat of power of its resident archdevil, who could be tied down by an arch-demon of comparable power while their respective minions duked it out.

You're neglecting the massive number of Dukes of Hell. Dispater, for instance, commands the loyalties of Alocer, Arioch, Biffant, Bitru, Lilis, Merodach, Titivilus, Ustyhrin-Ja and Zaggutch, each of whom is a match for the average demon lord. Each of whom has personal forces not committed to the Blood War currently. As does Dispater himself.

I'm really struggling to see how, if they didn't win, the demons couldn't at least inflict massive and irrevocable damage.

They would have to get there first. Gehenna, Hades and Carceri are the battlegrounds of the Blood War, not Hell and the Abyss.

Exemplars can change though, right? Like the Baatorians and Obyriths used to be the LE and CE exemplars, respectively?

Well, baatorians are the real LE exemplars; baatezu are an exemplar race that changed alignment and are using stolen souls to grow their ranks. Obyriths were never an exemplar race really, though under the broad heading of "demon" they do qualify.

[Zubrowka74]

In those times, Positive and Negative met, and where they clashed there was Shadow.

If the plane of Shadow is equal parts Positive and Negative, why are Shadows (the monster) considered undead ?

(sorry if you already answered this but I dodn't have the heart to go throught all the dozen of pages)

[afroakuma]

If the plane of Shadow is equal parts Positive and Negative, why are Shadows (the monster) considered undead ?

Well, shadows (the undead) aren't Shadow (the substance); their nature merely attunes them to that plane. Most natives of the Plane of Shadow are living beings, of a sort, though the dark channels where the shadows (again, the undead) run thick, the doldrums, give rise to potent forms of "pure" undead that rise as a counterbalance to life.

[willpell]

There is a defined number of modrons in the universe... but what that number is is not certain, and may be increasing. They're technically a different kind of infinite; the infinite where there are only a fixed number at any given time, but there will always be that many even if they are destroyed.

I don't think there's anything wrong with your explanation here, but I'm not understanding it. Like, okay, if there are 5 quadrillion modrons, and every one that gets destroyed is replaced by exactly one, and none are ever otherwise created, then how can the number possibly increase?

You're neglecting the massive number of Dukes of Hell. Dispater, for instance, commands the loyalties of Alocer, Arioch, Biffant, Bitru, Lilis, Merodach, Titivilus, Ustyhrin-Ja and Zaggutch, each of whom is a match for the average demon lord. Each of whom has personal forces not committed to the Blood War currently. As does Dispater himself.

Ahah! So the arch-devils are more or less as numerous as the arch-demons, pound for pound. (I still don't see how that can be when there are so many more planes of the Abyss; are they just more empty or something?)

They would have to get there first. Gehenna, Hades and Carceri are the battlegrounds of the Blood War, not Hell and the Abyss.

True. I was kinda skipping over that bit on the assumption that they were coming through in such force that the natives just go "oh SCREW that" and get out of the way fast. If not just teleporting over so as to avoid giving any warning (i assume there's some method of doing so, even if it's not even close to easy).

baatezu are an exemplar race that changed alignment

From what? And whatever is now that alignment replaced them? How did those come to be?

Also, on the topic of Shadow, if the plane is equal parts white and black, why does it have a Dark Creature template and not a Light Creature template? (I'm putting it very simplistically because I've been meaning to say this since like a page and a half ago and I keep forgetting.)

[Zubrowka74]

Well, shadows (the undead) aren't Shadow (the substance); their nature merely attunes them to that plane. Most natives of the Plane of Shadow are living beings, of a sort, though the dark channels where the shadows (again, the undead) run thick, the doldrums, give rise to potent forms of "pure" undead that rise as a counterbalance to life.

I think at least one edition had the shadow undead come from the plane of Shadow. 2e ?

[afroakuma]

I don't think there's anything wrong with your explanation here, but I'm not understanding it. Like, okay, if there are 5 quadrillion modrons, and every one that gets destroyed is replaced by exactly one, and none are ever otherwise created, then how can the number possibly increase?

We don't know if Primus ever makes a brand-new modron that is not a replacement; we only know that he does replace any modron that is destroyed. So, while there is a finite number (and it must be finite in any event, as Primus can count ), what that number is may very well be mutable.

Ahah! So the arch-devils are more or less as numerous as the arch-demons, pound for pound. (I still don't see how that can be when there are so many more planes of the Abyss; are they just more empty or something?)

We don't really say "archdevil" except to refer to the Lords of the Nine. These lesser nobility are "Dukes of Hell." Baator is a realm of fixed order; the Abyss is not. This results in the Abyss having many more layers, as difference is differenced out as opposed to forced into conformity.

True. I was kinda skipping over that bit on the assumption that they were coming through in such force that the natives just go "oh SCREW that" and get out of the way fast. If not just teleporting over so as to avoid giving any warning (i assume there's some method of doing so, even if it's not even close to easy).

Doesn't matter if the natives get out of the way; the Blood War is fought between demons and devils on those planes. As to teleporting over, the yugoloths would never allow it, and it wouldn't get them past Avernus even if they could do it.

From what? And whatever is now that alignment replaced them? How did those come to be?

Baatezu are fallen Archons and Angels. Nothing "replaced" them; they were a part of the races in question that fell. Hence they are exemplars, but cannot reproduce in the manner natural to their kind and need to cheat.

Also, on the topic of Shadow, if the plane is equal parts white and black, why does it have a Dark Creature template and not a Light Creature template?

Cultural bias.

[Menteith]

What qualifies as destruction with regard to Modrons? Would a spell like Mind Rape (forcibly changing their nature) or "lemur-fication" qualify? Is there any canon answer on this, or will I need to tread into houserule/homebrew territory if this occurs in a game?