afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

[willpell]

So in other words, Wotco employees are total squares.

[afroakuma]

Gral and I are speaking in a language of Law, one in which "squared" is a euphemism for "killed."

[Answerer]

You'd think multiplication by 0 would be the equivalent of killing.

Also, taking the absolute value of a square or the square of an absolute value are both entirely identical to each other and also to just taking the square and doing away with the absolute value altogether. In the real number system, anyway; i would change that statement.

[Seharvepernfan]

I'm curious about the layout of the planes.

I know that the ethereal and shadow are adjacent to the material.

I assume the Inner Planes are "under" or "inside" the material/ethereal/shadow.
I assume the Outer Planes are "above" or "outside" the m/e/s.
Is the astral between the m/e/s and the outer planes? And in between each of the outer planes? Then the far realm is outside of it all?

I think I remember something about Limbo stretching from the very center to the far realm...

How does it all work?

[AuraTwilight]

Depending on the cosmology, the Inner Planes are at the "other end" of the Ethereal Plane, or around the Material like the corners of a cube or something.

The Outer Planes are either at the other end of the Astral Plane, or are around the Material Plane like a ring, but farther away than the Inner Planes.

The Astral Plane is either another part of the Great Wheel, or is basically the big container for all other planes.

The Far Realm is entirely separate. Limbo has nothing to do with it, afaik.

[Chilingsworth]

When was the idea of the Far Realm introduced to D&D cosmology?

[afroakuma]

I'm curious about the layout of the planes.

There's a half-decent diagram in the Manual of the Planes.

Is the astral between the m/e/s and the outer planes? And in between each of the outer planes? Then the far realm is outside of it all?

In broad strokes, yes.

I think I remember something about Limbo stretching from the very center to the far realm...

No.

How does it all work?

The Material Plane is coexistent with the Ethereal and Shadow Planes, which don't touch one another. The Inner Planes are separated from the Material Plane via the Ethereal Plane.

The Material Plane is coterminous with the Astral Plane. The Outer Planes are separated from the Material Plane via the Astral Plane. They are generally separated from one another, but the top layer of each has points where it is coterminous to adjacent Outer Planes.

The Far Realm is, as the name suggests, far outside the cosmology.

When was the idea of the Far Realm introduced to D&D cosmology?

Gates of Firestorm Peak, by Bruce R. Cordell, 1996.

[123456789blaaa]

Can you tell us anything about blood elementals and the elemental plane of blood that isn't in this article?

[afroakuma]

Can you tell us anything about blood elementals and the elemental plane of blood that isn't in this article?

Well, it's not really an elemental plane... also there's this other article.

[123456789blaaa]

Well, it's not really an elemental plane... also there's this other article.

I just called it an elemental plane because that's what the article called it. The actual location is pretty strongly implied to be the far realm.

Oooh shiny! (but...sanguineous wrath? )

[Answerer]

the top layer of each [Outer Plane] has points where it is coterminous to adjacent Outer Planes.

The "top" layer? Even in, say, Celestia where no one has ever returned from the 7th Layer? Or does "top" not necessarily mean "highest"?

[AuraTwilight]

"Top" typically means "The first layer you would enter at."

[afroakuma]

The "top" layer? Even in, say, Celestia where no one has ever returned from the 7th Layer? Or does "top" not necessarily mean "highest"?

"Top" typically means "The first layer you would enter at."

See above. Frankly, with the exception of Celestia (and maybe Bytopia), most planes are considered to go "downward," metaphysically speaking.

[herrhauptmann]

I might have missed it in the previous 20+ pages, but do you have a decent planar terrain mastery (for the Horizon Walker PrC) for the Plane of Dreams, or the Dreamscape, beyond the gates of Horn and Ivory, etc?

Every time I try to think of something, it becomes lucid dreaming shenanigans, which most dm's will ban outright.
Personally I'd prefer to go for more of a feel like Neil Gaiman's Sandman, rather than DiCaprio's Inception.

Thanks.
HH

[afroakuma]

I might have missed it in the previous 20+ pages, but do you have a decent planar terrain mastery (for the Horizon Walker PrC) for the Plane of Dreams, or the Dreamscape, beyond the gates of Horn and Ivory, etc?

Every time I try to think of something, it becomes lucid dreaming shenanigans, which most dm's will ban outright.
Personally I'd prefer to go for more of a feel like Neil Gaiman's Sandman, rather than DiCaprio's Inception.

Thanks.
HH

I have never dabbled in homebrewing with that class. Interesting that I can't seem to find anyone else who has... sorry.

[willpell]

I might have missed it in the previous 20+ pages, but do you have a decent planar terrain mastery (for the Horizon Walker PrC) for the Plane of Dreams, or the Dreamscape, beyond the gates of Horn and Ivory, etc?

Entirely off the top of my head, how about a Prestidigitation SLA? It's hardly overpowered given that Fire PTM is the equivalent of a 2nd-level spell at a CL of 7 (with only one of five options but limitless duration), but it gives you a nice touch of being able to do all manner of cosmetic tricks. If you can reasonably call it "at-will" (that might be a little strong, but it's a 0-level spell with a 1-hour duration so I doubt it), the result would be that reality would be malleable in minor ornamental ways everywhere you go all the time, and that seems like it would feel like a waking dream of sorts.

To take a completely different tack, I've never heard of anyone suffering pain in a dream, so perhaps a bonus to Fortitude saves representing such numbness and detachment from physical ills? Not very exciting, but that makes it the polar opposite of my first idea.

In case neither of these appeals, I'll just leave this here.

[afroakuma]

I may look into it after I finish doing something else tangentially related to this thread.

Any new questions?

[Menteith]

Outside of granting their followers spells/items/boons, how do Deities enact their influence on the multiverse? Are there any "active" deities who are currently engaged in the field, or are standing fast against invaders?

It just strikes me as odd that someone like Gruumsh isn't currently at the gates of Celestia or something.

[hamishspence]

Too busy invading Maglubiyet's cube on Acheron (and fending off Maglubiyet's invasions of his cube) maybe.

[Flickerdart]

Too busy invading Maglubiyet's cube on Acheron (and fending off Maglubiyet's invasions of his cube) maybe.

Is "invading his/her cube" anything like "bumping uglies"?

[tadkins]

Over the course of a few days I've been reading this whole thread from page one, and I had now just finished. I must say it was very interesting, and I wanted to thank you all for the new info. :)

And now, for a question. If someone wanted to establish a mining operation in the Elemental Plane of Earth, how would that play out? Is it actually feasible? Would it potentially be more profitable than doing it on a material plane world?

[Seharvepernfan]

So the shadow plane only "touches" the material plane and no others?

[Larkas]

So the shadow plane only "touches" the material plane and no others?

IIRC, in 3.5 it touches the Astral as well.

[afroakuma]

Outside of granting their followers spells/items/boons, how do Deities enact their influence on the multiverse? Are there any "active" deities who are currently engaged in the field, or are standing fast against invaders?

It just strikes me as odd that someone like Gruumsh isn't currently at the gates of Celestia or something.

Deities interact on the planes through the use of proxies, divinely-empowered representatives. They negotiate with planar rulers and one another and typically involve themselves in the protection of their home plane, should it come to that.

Over the course of a few days I've been reading this whole thread from page one, and I had now just finished. I must say it was very interesting, and I wanted to thank you all for the new info. :)

Glad to be of service!

And now, for a question. If someone wanted to establish a mining operation in the Elemental Plane of Earth, how would that play out? Is it actually feasible? Would it potentially be more profitable than doing it on a material plane world?

You'd need to negotiate with the locals, whoever they were, and make sure you could protect your operation from hostiles/wandering xorn. That said, if you discover a wealthy vein of ore, it could prove tremendously profitable provided you have the startup capital.

So the shadow plane only "touches" the material plane and no others?

It can "touch" other planes briefly, but it's only coexistent with (fully touching) the Material Plane.

[Arcanist]

Can I travel from the Plane of Shadow to an Outer Plane since it touches the Astral? Say with "Shadow Walk"?

[Zubrowka74]

I just called it an elemental plane because that's what the article called it. The actual location is pretty strongly implied to be the far realm.

Oooh shiny! (but...sanguineous wrath? )

It's actually from Ravenloft before they axed the setting. There were four corruptions of classic elementals : Blood (Water), Pyre (Fire), Mist (Air) and Grave (Earth). Just see for yourself.

[afroakuma]

Can I travel from the Plane of Shadow to an Outer Plane since it touches the Astral? Say with "Shadow Walk"?

No. You can move from the Astral to the Plane of Shadow or vice versa, but the only way to get from Shadow to an Outer Plane is physical astral travel (astral projection) unless you have an artificial point of contact to cross (a portal). Shadow walk cannot do it, and cannot be used on the Outer Planes.

[willpell]

Is "invading his/her cube" anything like "bumping uglies"?

My own question on Acheron, assuming an answer for it exists: why exactly does it take the form of floating iron cubes random distances from each other? Seems like sort of a random setting for a plane of pure Law with Evil tendencies; why shouldn't it be, say, an immense flat checkerboard of alternating black and gray squares, or a massive net of spiraling cords whose billowing follows a precise geometric algorhythm (which is known to the generals of the wars and used for tactical advantage)? Most of the Outer Planes, even if seemingly random at first glance, have fairly obvious mythological roots (Gehenna, Tartarus, the Happy Hunting Ground, the original greek conception of Xaos), but this one just seems like they pulled it out of a hat. Does it have a source I'm unaware of, or is it just random weirdness?

To make the whole question more general, did any of the original designers ever discuss how they came up with the ideas for the cosmology?

And now, for a question. If someone wanted to establish a mining operation in the Elemental Plane of Earth, how would that play out? Is it actually feasible? Would it potentially be more profitable than doing it on a material plane world?

The Dao actually have an immense mine called the Great Dismal Delve. I'm surprised Afro didn't mention it, but perhaps this was because (based on my distant recollection of the MOTP description of it, I may be imagining this but I thought it was at least subtexted if not outright admitted) it seemed to be less about actually procuring gems than about making the miners miserable to amuse the Usually NE dao, with the gems themselves being essentially baubles by the dao's standards (they can always Wish such things up for themselves or something, right?).

Apologies if I've got this inaccurate, but it's something of a tradition of mine.

It's actually from Ravenloft before they axed the setting. There were four corruptions of classic elementals : Blood (Water), Pyre (Fire), Mist (Air) and Grave (Earth). Just see for yourself.

It becomes ever more apparent that Ravenloft must be coterminous with my campaign setting....

In other news, Pancryptia, Panspermia, Glossolalia-Laliberte Thermostat. I am completely serious.

[Flickerdart]

My own question on Acheron, assuming an answer for it exists: why exactly does it take the form of floating iron cubes random distances from each other?

I'm sorry, what was that? I didn't hear you over the sound of how Lawful Evil we are.

[willpell]

I'm sorry, what was that? I didn't hear you over the sound of how Lawful Evil we are.

That certainly makes a good post-hoc explanation, but I'm far from certain that it was actually the impetus. I don't recall which of STNG and 1ED&D goes back further, but I've never heard of the one actually influencing the other, despite many documented parallels to older (and usually book-form, apart from Star Wars) sources of sci-fi inspiration.

Another question, more answerable this time, though not technically about the Planes at all, I'm just hoping Afro's impressive body of largely-Planes-related lore happens to contain this information as well. The Elans, present as they are in the (Expanded and possibly regular) Psionics Handbook, and given important additional backstory in the Psionic supplement to Tome of Magic. Were they originally created specifically for Third Ed's version of Psionics? In the likely event they weren't, what were they like when first presented? And, as the capstone to these lead-in questions, why are they a RACE instead of a template??? They're supposed to retain the memory of their previous lives, yet all of their game stats are set to those of a first-level character when they're given "the treatment" (I forget what the fluff calls it officially), and thus they have no Knowledge skills. (Leaving them potentially incapable of identifying themselves according to strict RAW, though in this amusing instance, that usually-dysfunctional fact might actually be appropriate.)