The legend of Korra

[Scowling Dragon]

She's the Avatar. That is literally in her job description.

Doh. I kinda forgot about that.

[John Cribati]

No you didn't. You specificaly said that things where HARDER for benders then non-benders:

Technically, I just said "harder." That could have meant a lot of things. You took it to mean "harder than non-benders." Don't put words in my mouth.

[Scowling Dragon]

Then thats just weird grammer. You didn't indicate a specific topic for it to be harder than, so thus I had to guess myself what you meant.

[Dr.Epic]

Something I've always wondered about ever since Aang first did energy bending: if the Avatar can take away bending and we've seen they can restore it as Korra did, can an Avatar give the gift of bending to a nonbender?

Also, at some point John DiMaggio and Michael Fassbender need to appear on this show. I think we all know why.

[Flickerdart]

It's much easier to destroy than to create. Given that all elemental bending arose from energybending, though, it's likely that an energybender could give himself bending if he was powerful enough.

[MLai]

An energybender can learn elemental bending. Because that's how the original energybenders became elemental benders, by learning it from dragons/bisons/armadillos which themselves use bending as a natural animal ability.

They're all sacred animals but I think the dragons are "more sacred" because they actually bend 2 elements at once. Unless you think they reason they can fly is because they have hydrogen bladders or something.

The moon is the only 100%-divine teacher. There could be waterbending animals, but the waterbenders skipped the middleman.

[Kobold-Bard]

... but I think the dragons are "more sacred" because they actually bend 2 elements at once. Unless you think they reason they can fly is because they have hydrogen bladders or something.

...

Or it could be because they have wings. Unless you think Sokka's messenger hawk was an airbenders because it could fly?

[MLai]

Or it could be because they have wings. Unless you think Sokka's messenger hawk was an airbenders because it could fly?

Did Avatarverse dragons have wings? I guess I didn't remember. Even though they did have serpentine bodies which automatically makes the idea of "wings = flight" useless, but I'll give it a pass.
No I don't think a hawk is an airbender, I just think you're a lousy comedian.

[Kato]

Also, at some point John DiMaggio and Michael Fassbender need to appear on this show. I think we all know why.

I don't get it... but then I only have a very loose idea of who these people are


Concerning energy benders... was this discussed in canon? Because it seems weird they are very nearly extinct (or are extinct) if it was the source of all bending.

[John Cribati]

Did Avatarverse dragons have wings? I guess I didn't remember. Even though they did have serpentine bodies which automatically makes the idea of "wings = flight" useless, but I'll give it a pass.
No I don't think a hawk is an airbender, I just think you're a lousy comedian.

The wings were actually very prominent when they flew. It's probably not physically possible for those wings to support their weight, but I'm of the mind that there's a lower gravity in the Avatarverse what with all the ridiculous jumping that goes on.

[Math_Mage]

Amon's "point" was that all benders are terrible people who will inevitably abuse their power to get more power. The fact that some benders are bad dudes doesn't prove his point at all.

And that doesn't get into the fact that, socioeconomically speaking, the existence of bender gangs in the first place points to benders having it harder.

To be more precise, the existence of Mako and Bolin alongside the Triads demonstrates that benders are not immune to hardship (though the lack of shown non-bending gangs means neither that non-bending gangs don't exist nor that non-benders are immune to hardship--Gommu is a counterexample to the latter), and the existence of Asami and her dad demonstrates that non-benders are not necessarily underprivileged. Overall there's a lot to contradict the claim that Amon's movement arose out of genuine bender oppression.

But then, that isn't quite the problem with LoK's plot as written. It's not that they didn't use the particular social tension we were thinking of; it's that they didn't give any real social basis for Amon's rebellion. His message is quite clear: bending is a force for oppression. What's baffling is how this message was received well enough to start the Equalist movement, especially if there's no underlying truth to it, when bending has been a deeply respected part of the culture for as long as we know about.

[DaedalusMkV]

But then, that isn't quite the problem with LoK's plot as written. It's not that they didn't use the particular social tension we were thinking of; it's that they didn't give any real social basis for Amon's rebellion. His message is quite clear: bending is a force for oppression. What's baffling is how this message was received well enough to start the Equalist movement, especially if there's no underlying truth to it, when bending has been a deeply respected part of the culture for as long as we know about.

But there are some legitimate complaints around. Look at the governing council for Republic City; even though there's no doubt that Benders are a minority of the population, all of the people who control things are Benders. Every policeman? A bender. Everyone with any political authority in Republic City at the beginning of LoK is a Bender, and it seems to be designed that way structurally. While there was at least one non-Bender Councilman in the past with Sokka, we also know for a fact that Tenzin gets to be one of the city's rulers solely because he's the only person who could count as a "representative of the Air Nomads".

While the Benders weren't really oppressing the non-Benders in the harsh, totalitarian sense we expect out of that word, it doesn't change the fact that, at least during the time where Amon is waging his war, every ounce of political power in Republic City is controlled by a Bender. Whether this was intentional on the writers' part and just never actually acknowledged by the cast or purely unintentional is anyone's guess. Obviously, Amon's revolution wasn't really based on these legitimate issues, since he never actually brought them up even though they would have made very effective rallying calls ("People of Republic City, have you ever wondered why all of the police are Benders? How could the law possibly be fair when only Benders are allowed to enforce it..."), but they still existed.

Actually, the whole thing kind of made me sad. Why don't they keep some Chi-Blocker cops around? They'd not only significantly increase the police's recruiting pool but also create some redundancy in the police force's abilities (and eliminate the "useless against magnets" problem), not to mention being proven-effective against the Bending triads. Frankly, the only explanation for why Chi-Blockers aren't seeing heavy use as police and special forces units is outright bias.

[Scowling Dragon]

Or maybe its a freaking hard Kung-Fu art to master. And its not something that can be made easily available.

And not EVERY cop is a bender. Only the SWAT is. And for good reason.

[Morty]

Actually, the whole thing kind of made me sad. Why don't they keep some Chi-Blocker cops around? They'd not only significantly increase the police's recruiting pool but also create some redundancy in the police force's abilities (and eliminate the "useless against magnets" problem), not to mention being proven-effective against the Bending triads. Frankly, the only explanation for why Chi-Blockers aren't seeing heavy use as police and special forces units is outright bias.

It occured to me as well, early in the season. Like most such interesting topics, it's entirely unexplored.

[DaedalusMkV]

Or maybe its a freaking hard Kung-Fu art to master. And its not something that can be made easily available.

And not EVERY cop is a bender. Only the SWAT is. And for good reason.

1: If the Equalists can train at least a hundred or so Chi-Blockers, and were in the process of training 20 or so more during the raid early in the season, there is no conceivable reason that the actual government of Republic City couldn't put together at least a few dozen of them to supplement their police and military presence. Difficult as it may be to master, it's clear from Amon's use of them that availability isn't the limiting facter.

2: Really? Did you ever see a non-Metalbender policeman in Republic City? I sure didn't. They're called the Metalbending Police Force for goodness' sake.

[MLai]

Really? Did you ever see a non-Metalbender policeman in Republic City? I sure didn't. They're called the Metalbending Police Force for goodness' sake.

He means that cop in the park who was trying to stop Korra from harassing the guy with the clay megaphone.
Ofc, then you get to the problem of depicting the only nonbending cop shown in the series as... patrolling a park. All the other cops who are benders, get to do the exciting Hollywood cop stuff, or get to oppress nonbending ppl, etc.

[pffh]

2: Really? Did you ever see a non-Metalbender policeman in Republic City? I sure didn't. They're called the Metalbending Police Force for goodness' sake.

There are at least two cops in the show that are never shown bending and try to chase down the gang and those are the cops in the park.

[Math_Mage]

But there are some legitimate complaints around. Look at the governing council for Republic City; even though there's no doubt that Benders are a minority of the population, all of the people who control things are Benders. Every policeman? A bender. Everyone with any political authority in Republic City at the beginning of LoK is a Bender, and it seems to be designed that way structurally. While there was at least one non-Bender Councilman in the past with Sokka, we also know for a fact that Tenzin gets to be one of the city's rulers solely because he's the only person who could count as a "representative of the Air Nomads".

While the Benders weren't really oppressing the non-Benders in the harsh, totalitarian sense we expect out of that word, it doesn't change the fact that, at least during the time where Amon is waging his war, every ounce of political power in Republic City is controlled by a Bender. Whether this was intentional on the writers' part and just never actually acknowledged by the cast or purely unintentional is anyone's guess. Obviously, Amon's revolution wasn't really based on these legitimate issues, since he never actually brought them up even though they would have made very effective rallying calls ("People of Republic City, have you ever wondered why all of the police are Benders? How could the law possibly be fair when only Benders are allowed to enforce it..."), but they still existed.

Actually, the whole thing kind of made me sad. Why don't they keep some Chi-Blocker cops around? They'd not only significantly increase the police's recruiting pool but also create some redundancy in the police force's abilities (and eliminate the "useless against magnets" problem), not to mention being proven-effective against the Bending triads. Frankly, the only explanation for why Chi-Blockers aren't seeing heavy use as police and special forces units is outright bias.

We've been over this ground a lot, and I'm not in the mood to argue about whether there was or wasn't Bender oppression going on. Either there was, and the show didn't make any effort to legitimate the underlying social conflict by having the protagonists grapple with it...or there wasn't, and the show didn't make any effort to present a social basis for the Equalist movement that the protagonists could grapple with. Either way, there's an obvious problem, and my prior comments still apply.

The basic nature of this problem (and it's not the only one) is that at no point did anyone the audience might identify with express any doubt that the problem was just Amon being an Evil Bad Person out to DeBend All Benders, and later Tarrlok being an Evil Bad Person out to Oppress Nonbenders and Take Over The City, despite the show being all set up to present a morally complex story after the first few episodes. We are encouraged by the characters and writers to take the view that the only fault with the city was that Yakone's sons were there (and that A. Bender killed Asami's mother), and everything would have been hunky-dory without them. They're the brothers Hitler and Palpatine, respectively, except without the backdrop of historical antiBenderism or a decadent declining Republic (or even a dualistic Force).

Whether we interpret it as the writers setting up a deeper issue and failing to execute on it, or the writers failing to present a deeper issue in the first place, is trivial. As Morty said, there are a wealth of interesting ideas in the show that get set up, but never explored, and that's why it's disappointing.

[John Cribati]

He means that cop in the park who was trying to stop Korra from harassing the guy with the clay megaphone.
Ofc, then you get to the problem of depicting the only nonbending cop shown in the series as... patrolling a park. All the other cops who are benders, get to do the exciting Hollywood cop stuff, or get to oppress nonbending ppl, etc.

Because those are the cops who have "will likely have to f*** things/people up" in their job description. And benders are born with a rather high upf***ing capacity.

[MLai]

Because those are the cops who have "will likely have to f*** things/people up" in their job description. And benders are born with a rather high upf***ing capacity.

Which didn't stop two chi-blockers from completely f***ing up the Avatar + a pro-bender, in a straight-up no-dirty-tricks fight on open ground. In a nondestructive way no less, which should be a prized ability among police. They only retreated because a polar beardog showed up.

[Math_Mage]

I interpret the lack of chi-blocking as Ty Lee and her teacher/s not being involved in the creation of Republic City. But then we have the question of how the Equalists have such ready access to it.

[John Cribati]

Which didn't stop two chi-blockers from completely f***ing up the Avatar + a pro-bender, in a straight-up no-dirty-tricks fight on open ground. In a nondestructive way no less, which should be a prized ability among police. They only retreated because a polar beardog showed up.

But teaching someone, from scratch, to f*** things up is more labor-intensive than taking someone who is born with the ability to f*** things up and showing them how to f*** up only the things/people they want to f*** up.

[DaedalusMkV]

Whether we interpret it as the writers setting up a deeper issue and failing to execute on it, or the writers failing to present a deeper issue in the first place, is trivial. As Morty said, there are a wealth of interesting ideas in the show that get set up, but never explored, and that's why it's disappointing.

I won't argue any of that. The failure to develop the idealogical conflict at the heart of everything beyond "Some people resent Benders and Amon is a dirty hypocrite who wants to de-Bend everyone else because he's evil" is probably the single most disappointing thing in the entire show. There was an excellent avenue to explore some legitimate social issues and they outright ignored it because they were afraid of making the villain too sympathetic. Or something, I can't claim to know the whys of it. I was just making the point that there is some evidence that the Equalists weren't all wrong, even if it never actually gets explored.

I can see the roots of something interesting, and it wouldn't actually have been too difficult to set it up. If they'd been willing to go with a rather family-friendly moral of "Violent extremism is bad and you shouldn't do it", they could have set up Korra and Tenzin as voices of moderation following Tarrlok's initiating martial law and oppressing people, pointed out that both sides had good points but were going about things all wrong and taken the angle that maybe Amon and Tarrlock both had a few good points but that doesn't justify attacking entire populations because of the bad actions of a few. Bam, Amon and Tarrlock are still the bad guys, but now it's (rightly) because of their actions rather than their ideologies. We even get glimpses of this sort of thing in the last two episodes with the homeless people that help Team Avatar, but it's never quite there. Instead, we kind of wind up with no moral at all beyond "Amon and Tarrlock were jerks".

I don't know, maybe I'm expecting too much out of a children's cartoon show. But I still can't help but agree that Korra was full of wasted potential. I enjoyed it regardless, but it's not hard to see how it could have been so much better with such minor changes.

But teaching someone, from scratch, to f*** things up is more labor-intensive than taking someone who is born with the ability to f*** things up and showing them how to f*** up only the things/people they want to f*** up.

I'm not sure about that. Metalbending can't be that easy, or someone would have figured it out some time in the thousands of years before Toph invented it. More importantly, while the Metalbender Cops tactics are pretty effective against common criminals, Chi-blockers are demonstably more effective against Benders, which are shown to be a pretty major problem. Chi-Blockers also don't need specialized gear to be effective. They'd be much more effective at undercover duties than the Metalbenders.

The way that Chi-Blocking works, they'd make ideal police officers. Absolutely no collateral damage, perfectly nonlethal methods and especially effective at bringing down Bending criminals before they can cause too much damage. There's no real reason not to employ at least a few of them for the areas that they just completely outperform Benders. Or, to put it a bit more simply, "Sometimes, what you want is someone who can get the job done without *******ing anyone up too badly."

[Mutant Sheep]

I don't know, maybe I'm expecting too much out of a children's cartoon show. But I still can't help but agree that Korra was full of wasted potential. I enjoyed it regardless, but it's not hard to see how it could have been so much better with such minor changes.

I'm not sure about that. Metalbending can't be that easy, or someone would have figured it out some time in the thousands of years before Toph invented it. More importantly, while the Metalbender Cops tactics are pretty effective against common criminals, Chi-blockers are demonstably more effective against Benders, which are shown to be a pretty major problem. Chi-Blockers also don't need specialized gear to be effective. They'd be much more effective at undercover duties than the Metalbenders.

The way that Chi-Blocking works, they'd make ideal police officers. Absolutely no collateral damage, perfectly nonlethal methods and especially effective at bringing down Bending criminals before they can cause too much damage. There's no real reason not to employ at least a few of them for the areas that they just completely outperform Benders. Or, to put it a bit more simply, "Sometimes, what you want is someone who can get the job done without *******ing anyone up too badly."

I don't think it's that much to expect a moral from a kids show.

The problem with metalbending is that we aren't given a good timeframe for Avatar tech advancement. The Iron age might have been very quick, we don't have much information on it, so thousands of years might be a bit much. It could be only a few hundred since widespread usage, which is hardly enough for earth benders to invent and spread metalbending in an efficient form. Metal was considered unbendable for a longtime, afterall. Once earthbenders discovered metal wasn't bendable, they probably never tried extensively to find the impurities that Toph did. The main reason Toph did find them was because she saw through her bending, which gives her much more finesse in how she bends, and let her feel through the metal. Other benders don't have that skill, so they likely never found the impurities and couldn't get their foot in the door, so to speak. We also don't know how refined metalbender metal is. It could be the bare miminum metal so it's actually usable (with little training) by earthbenders. Which does make metalbending much more exclusive, since the metal-bender copgear would be specially tailored for easy bending and you still need someone to guide you to read the impurities.

A problem I see with Chi-Blockers is that we only ever see them with superhuman agility and speed, with a ton of luck with dodging attacks, fighting benders. The only reason Amon's men were so effective is because there is no real knowledge on how to fight Chi Blockers beyond "bend at them and hope you keep them away". Most benders only bend against other benders, so they bend with alot of diversion and feints that they expect will get blocked. Chiblockers come in quickly for melee and shut the opponent down quickly, instead of throwing stones/water/fire at the other person at a distance while keeping your distance. Its because benders are so used to fighting other benders that Chiblockers are so effective. Once people learn to use larger and wider strikes, instead of stronger precise ones in a slugfest, Chiblockers wont be able to dodge as easily and cant close the distance. A bender can deflect other bender attacks and counterattack from a distance. A chiblocker dodges or gets hit hard. They are only so effective because they are either sneaking up in darkness (against the cops, and they also have stunfists) or are in hilariously superior numbers with giant mechas. (Airbender Island, the Lotus guards, Tenzin)

If you used more Chiblockers as cops, there are some problems with that beyond "bending criminals learn to actually hit a moving target". The Metalbender cop armor is supposed to block Chiblocking, so a cheap knockoff that covers the essentials can neutralize the main power of the police force and require specialized gear (probably less expensive than Metalcop armor though) A chiblocker is just not as effective as a bender at taking down people because they need to hit the other person with their body. Once the bad guys learn how to defend themselves, it goes back to bender vs bender fights with chiblockers getting in the coup de grac as the criminal is distracted. A bender/chiblocker team, or just bender cops who have chiblocking training, could take both strategies and be very effective against lone criminals or groups. (Which is kind of what you suggested, so yeah). But chiblockers are not better than benders at fighting benders if say, a bender is holding up a store. They are much mroe fragile, have less chances to defend themselves, and have less options. Metalbenders are the cops BECAUSE they have the least collateral damage, high mobility, and can also earthbend if they need to. A fireball comes at them, they block it. A Chiblocker either has to never get in that situation, which assumes hypercompetancy or just super ninja-ery, or dodge it, then keep dodging as fireballs blow up the whole store. Metalbenders can incapacitate more quickly, and from a distance, while a nonbending chiblocker has to get close to a person who can shoot fireballs from his fists. chiblockers being in a support role seems to be the best way of integration, since they can neutralize the bender once he is in custody or distracted in a bending fight and not watching his back.

The only fairish fight we see where it is Chiblocker vs Bender is Amon, and he didn't dodge so much as make the other guy miss. A bender who is expecting a cop to show up cant be bullrush-pressure-point-ed, the chiblocker would get a burned off face and be incapacitated or killed. They don't outperform benders in any category except stealth takedowns, which is really just being Batman in more words. If you can sneak up behind the guy and jab his armpit, you could probably have used your psychic powers to just tie him up with your rope a lot faster, and with much less chance of personal injury.

[MLai]

I don't think anyone said benders shouldn't be cops. The point was nonbenders can also be cops, because chi-blocking.
So yes, agree there should be nonbending chi-blockers integrated into the force. Chi-blocking shouldn't be seen as some sort of OMG EVIL technique like bloodbending, and that's basically how it was depicted in the series.
As for why benders can't learn chi-blocking? Ever try to be really good at two different martial arts? It's twice as hard as being good at one.

I don't think it's that much to expect a moral from a kids show.

Please don't go there.... >___<

[Mutant Sheep]

I don't think anyone said benders shouldn't be cops. The point was nonbenders can also be cops, because chi-blocking.
So yes, agree there should be nonbending chi-blockers integrated into the force. Chi-blocking shouldn't be seen as some sort of OMG EVIL technique like bloodbending, and that's basically how it was depicted in the series.
As for why benders can't learn chi-blocking? Ever try to be really good at two different martial arts? It's twice as hard as being good at one.


Please don't go there.... >___<

I don't think anyone did either, but I don't think Chiblocking can compare to bending. It might have less collateral damage, but we aren't worrying about law enforcement destroying things as much as A. Firebender getting away with another murder. Chiblocking just isn't as efficient, like everything bender-nonbender. A warrior who can cast meteor swarm whenever he wants is better than a normal warrior. Too bad for the normal guy. Meteor Swarm wins, and if your only way of evening the playing field is by running up to him and jabbing him in pressure points, you're going to take a whole lot of fire damage.

Chiblocking was depicted as evil because the bad guys used it. They used it because the bad guys wound up opposed the very idea of benders, so they were pretty low on options. The problem with chiblocking, beyond it just not being as efficient as bending, is that anyone can learn it. So it isn't developing a natural skill like bending is. It doesn't confer the ability to shoot fire, you can just stop other people from doing it if you get close enough. It isn't a positive skill, it is a preventive art. If you naturally have the ability to control the earth, you're going to want to use that. It's a big advantage. Manual labor, mining, a bunch of jobs become easier and you could even go into Pro Bending, not to mention you can friggen move the earth with your mind. Chiblocking doesn't have any sports teams, doesn't give you any advantages in life, and doesn't come naturally. It's a skill you learn so you can fight benders. That's it. A limited reason for a limited purpose for a limited skill. It is a martial art, so it's not like people wouldn't learn it, but it is still a very limited purpose skill with few real applications.

It's not an equal to bending, and I don't see how it is worth having in law enforcement when you could just get a bender. Chiblocking could be useful, but benders are just better. Special training for volunteers might work, but you would have to find an instructor (Not hard, there's enough people, be they ex-Equalist or Kyoshi), people who want to learn chiblocking (I'm not convinced this is a very substantial number), and then justify them(I'm going back to benders>chiblockers here). New training regimines, bender prejudice (I think the ziplining metalbenders might be appreciative of help, but they were dismissive towards the Avatar. A nonbender who can't even get through their armor wouldn't mean much.) It's a lot of hassle, but I don't see the payoff. Doing this for the sake of having more nonbenders in the force seems excessive. They just can't work as well.

In conclusion: Bending makes you better, so it should be wiped off the earth due to it being so unequal. And since it isn't exactly genetic, if your a nonbender and you marry a nonbender, then have a bender, you must kill it. It's the reincarnation of A. Firebender. It will cause the briefly-told woes of all of the main characters with sad back stories. (See, this part is a badly told joke. )

I never said it had to be a GOOD moral.

[Dr.Epic]

I don't get it... but then I only have a very loose idea of who these people are

John DiMaggio voices this character.

And I think it's pretty obvious why someone named Michael FassBENDER should be on a series about elemental BENDERS. Also, being a Fassbender is kind of like being a metal bender, except way more awesome!

[MLai]

I don't think Chiblocking can compare to bending.

All that sounds very convincing. If you were writing your own story with your own universe where certain ppl are born with elemental superpowers.
Except in Avatar-verse, we've seen chi-blockers rock the faces off of benders. And avatars. In both series.
Also remember Avatar-verse is not like our world. More like a martial arts world with super ninjas and other kung fu feats. Without having to be benders. So closing the distance is not that hard. As we have seen. In both series.
Also, chi-block does work on nonbenders. It paralyzes motor functions. See Sokka vs Ty-Lee.
Lastly, a nonbender's martial art is bad because it has no applicability besides combat? Really? Never stopped anyone in our world.

[John Cribati]

But the thing is that taking a guy born with the ability to manipulate the earth and saying "here, let's refine that ability" is more cost-effective than taking Lee off the streets and saying "hey, let me spend a couple months/years teaching you how to be useful." Now, can the cops put out the call for established martial artists to join the force? Probably. Not gonna lie. But, again, the guy whose weapon is the very ground you're standing on has an advantage in this department.

[Scowling Dragon]

Also thats a single specific ability to pacify a certain type of bender. A Metal bender could pacify most common benders by trapping them in a metal cocoon, and is much more likely to do so then a guy that has to get into melee, avoiding either the huge bouts of water, the lethal streams of fire, and walls of stone.

Only masters of the arts of dodging and stuff would be able to get close to a decent bender.