Return of the Scarlet Empress II - Nothing on My Back...

[The_Snark]

"Ah. I did say that, didn't I." Isa considers putting it off. But nothing is really going to change in the next five days, and if she refuses then Emerald Stormwrack or Ayesha Ura will cheerfully tell the whole story. (Or perhaps not, but if she can expose holes in the Gold's version of events, all the better.) Maybe Orchid will think her cold for moving on so quickly. Emerald Stormwrack probably does, if he hasn't already guessed her secret. Nothing to be done about it now.

"You might want to sit down," she says, settling herself cross-legged on the floor by her hammock. "It's a long story. I don't know how much you know already, so I'll start at the beginning."

Isa closes her eyes, composing the words in her head before she speaks. Her voice unconsciously drops into the singsong tones of a storyteller.

"Before everything else was the Wyld, infinite and ever-changing and changeless, just as it is today. Then the titans came, the Primordials. They challenged the Wyld, threw it back, made Creation as a bulwark against the chaos. They fashioned the gods to be their servants, and filled the world with life to revere and amuse them. But they did not love their creations as children. They cared for us as a prince cares for slaves, or a child for her toys: precious, maybe, but still things to be commanded and possessed. Often, things to be broken."

"The gods tired of it. They came to humanity, then the lowest and weakest of mortal races, and offered us their power. These were the first Exalted. They rose up and defeated the Primordials. Some were killed, and their dying dreams formed the Underworld. Others surrendered, and were sealed away from the world. These became the Yozis, and they hate us still."

"The Incarnae retired to Yu-Shan and bequeathed the right to rule Creation to their Chosen. So the Exalted conquered Creation, through diplomacy and the sword. That was the first Realm, the one the Scarlet Empress tried to evoke when she took her throne. The Chosen of the Sun ruled, the Chosen of the Moon stood beside them, the Chosen of the Maidens advised, and the Dragon-Blooded Host served beneath."

"It was a good time to live, or so I'm told." Her voice changes subtly, no longer telling tales from long ago and far away, but discussing history. "The Yozis were cowed, the Neverborn slept, and the Fair Folk were barred from Creation by terrible oaths and obelisks of jade. There was still war, and crime, and unhappiness - that's life - but less than there is today. Only, it didn't last. The Solars who ruled as god-kings grew... decadent. Erratic. They were Exalted to do great things, and maybe that's not such a good thing in a time of peace. They pried open the tombs of the Neverborn and brought necromancy into the world. They brought the Wyld into their lands just to test themselves against it. They fought wars for the sake of ambition and vengeance. They sought to write their will into the shinma of Creation, never mind the risk of cracking reality open like an egg. Our records say that happened, once. We still don't know exactly how, or how it was fixed."

"We - that is to say, the Five-Score Fellowship - saw the pattern before anyone else. We stood close to the Lawgivers, but not too close. The stories the Immaculates tell about Deceivers - you know those aren't all true, but they are rooted in truth. People adored the Solars of the Old Realm, even when they were tyrants. They couldn't help it."

"In any case. We looked to the Loom of Fate, and discovered three paths. We could do nothing and continue on as before. The Solars would descend into madness and eventually shatter the world beyond any hope of recovery, destroying it utterly or enslaving it. As well drop the whole thing into the Void, or invite the Yozis back as rulers."

"We could approach the Solars and try to reason with them. It might have worked. There was a chance they would listen and turn aside, impose strictures and reforms or - something. Nobody quite knew how. But there was also a chance they would suspect us of plotting against them - which we were! - and turn against us. Or they might agree, but see only their rivals' folly, triggering the war we hoped to avoid. There was no way to be sure."

"Or we could guide the Dragon-Blooded to overthrow the Solars, as we did the Primordials before them. It would be costly, we would lose much of what made the Realm great, but it would work. The world would survive. This was certain. That was why we eventually chose that route. We did not feel we had the right to gamble with the lives of everyone that lived, and everyone who might ever live."

"Some of the Five-Score Fellowship disagreed. A few tried to warn the Solars. They died. And the revolution went forward, just as foreseen. The Terrestrials - enough of them, anyway - agreed with our course. The Lunars were deemed too close to their mates to approach; they were caught on the wrong side when the uprising came, I suppose."

"That wasn't the end of it, of course. I don't know how much you know about Exaltation, but suffice to say that death is no more than a temporary solution; when you die, somebody else will find themselves Exalting as an Eclipse not long afterwards. Luckily, we found... a safeguard, though it wasn't perfect. Most of the Solars were sealed away. For the rest, the Wyld Hunt was founded."

"The Shogunate knew why Solars had to be killed. The Immaculate Faith didn't come until later, after the Great Contagion and the Fair Folk invasion. Nobody alive could remember the Uprising or the old Realm, and it's hard to kill people for the sake of an ancient grievance when your world is collapsing... We found the Immaculate Faith - it was originally a small cult in the Threshold - and brought it to the Scarlet Empress. It's easier for most people to accept than the truth."

Isa spreads her hands, looks directly at Orchid. "So there you have it. There's a kind of madness in the Solars, like staring into the sun. Maybe the human mind can't handle it. Maybe it's just what happens when you give a person absolute power and thousands of years of life. We don't really know. But we do know that - if the Solars grow into their full power, and they turn out the same way as before - then there will be no second chance. We won't catch you by surprise again."

Spoiler

Show

This isn't really a social attack, I just feel like rolling Performance to see how well it works as a story/speech. Spending 6 motes on the 2nd Excellency.

Cha+Performance: (3d10)[5][10][9](24) +3 successes
Stunt: (3d10)[8][6][6](20)

[Ifni]

Isa and Orchid

When Isa sits down, the Eclipse does as well, leaning back against the curved wall of the cabin and wrapping her arms around her knees. She listens, then, and watches the Sidereal's face, filtering every word through Essence-enhanced perceptions.

She forces herself not to tense, not to flinch, not to protest aloud or silently. Just to listen, and weigh each word for truth, and remember.

By the end she feels separated from herself, as if she were floating in some still calm void. She'd been angry before, for the lie of Anathema, and those betrayed to their deaths by that lie. But it's harder to summon that righteous fury now. Isa believes this, and can she really condemn the Bronze for being risk-averse, when it's the world at stake? If you believe that - cracking reality open like an egg - maybe it is worth demanding people throw themselves into the fire, even people who have no idea...

And yet still - it might have worked. There was a chance...

Her hands clench, briefly, as if they held a sword, but she listens in silence until the end, and meets the Sidereal's gaze without flinching. Her own face is hard to read. She's not sure, herself, quite what she feels.

Emptiness, perhaps. Understanding. No ancient hurt here, no vengeance for old crimes, just... refusal, to let the world end from carelessness or bad luck. It makes sense, and Isa tells it very well indeed. And yet, and yet -

Orchid inclines her head to Isa, just slightly. "Thank you for the story." Her voice is quiet and very, very controlled. Her eyes remain on Isa's, but her gaze seems distant, focused on something far beyond the small cabin. "... I have three questions, I think. Initially, anyway."

"First - I know you believe this. Why? What's your source, and how reliable is it?"

"Second. The 'safeguard'. It's gone now. Right?"

"Third." The Solar's focus returns to the Chosen of Endings. Her small form is still as a statue, except for the whisper of her breathing; not a single twitch of a finger or eye-muscle to betray her thoughts. "Is it still true, still certain by your vision, that if you follow your present path, the world will survive?" A moment of hesitation, a note of mingled hope and pain in her voice, escaping that iron control - "Are the Deathlords so much less a threat than Solars?"

[The_Snark]

"I have it from someone who was there," Isa replies. "Someone I trust. He was hardly the only witness; enough people in Heaven knew what happened, in bits and pieces anyway, that it would be hard to change anything important. Emerald Stormwrack would put a different spin on the story, I'm sure, but I doubt you'd see any major factual differences."

"Second." She pauses, trying to decide how much to reveal. Orchid has a very good instinct for narrowing in on the parts she'd rather not discuss. The Jade Prison is... probably not important, and the Gold Faction can probably tell her anyway. "Yes. Please don't ask too many questions like that. I'm willing to discuss our reasons for acting as we do, but not specific details of our plans. You understand."

And third..." Isa grimaces. "No. The Deathlords lie outside Fate's purview; our predictions didn't account for them. It was never a promise that we'd survive forever, anyway - the future isn't that certain. But the Deathlords didn't exist, back then. The Fair Folk were hedged out by unbreakable oaths. The threats from outside Creation seemed manageable, at the time." She shrugs. "Less so now. Hindsight makes a lot of people think differently."

[Ifni]

Isa and Orchid

Orchid nods slightly. "This would be Chejop Kejak?" Her voice is still quiet and again nearly emotionless; perhaps it's a reconsideration, or something she sees in Isa's face, that causes her to add hurriedly, "The Lunars recognized the name, said he was one of those who hunted them after the Uprising."

"As for the other points -" She exhales softly. "I suppose it couldn't be that easy. But yes, Isa - I understand. I'm not sure you do. Which is fair enough; you've been more forthcoming than I have."

"Do you think I'm going to argue that your Fellowship made the wrong choice, back then?" A faint note of incredulity enters her voice. "I wasn't there, I have no right. If I believe your account, there's a good chance I'm alive today - along with everybody else - because of that choice, and the sacrifices of those who fought to make it happen. And to the degree I was there..." The Solar doesn't shiver, but does close her eyes for a moment. "Does Sidereal Exaltation pass from bearer to bearer, as well? And if so... do you ever share memories, from those other lives?"

[The_Snark]

Isa merely nods at the first question. Lunars, plural? Something to make a note of.

And... yes, actually, she had expected argument. Habit, probably. Or her own doubts making her defensive? Maybe. Hard to say. In any case, she's so used to hearing that choice challenged and scorned that to hear a Solar, of all people, accept the Vision of Bronze is distinctly odd.

"It does. I've heard of memories lingering from one incarnation to the next, though I've never felt it myself. But then, my predecessor was executed - I wouldn't be surprised if the god in charge of cleansing those memories took particular care to remove them. Yours... if I had to guess, I would say your memories are more vivid than most." Isa tilts her head curiously, wondering where this is going. "What is it you think I'm not understanding?"

[Ifni]

"There's a god in charge of cleansing memories?" Orchid leans forward just slightly, a sudden intentness in her eyes. "Can they only do it between incarnations, or on living Exalts as well?"

After a moment she sits back. "I have... a few little fragments. When I woke up screaming in your ear this morning - sorry again about that, by the way - that was the... latest one. And the worst so far, by quite a margin."

The Eclipse takes a long breath. "I don't doubt you, Isa, when you say the end of that Age was a horror. Looking out through his eyes -" She stops, and drags in another breath, and then continues a little haltingly, "If the others were like him, thought like him, saw the world like him - then your Fellowship's only mistake was to delay as long as you did." She meets Isa's star-speckled violet gaze. "I'm grateful that someone killed the bastard. I wish they'd gotten there sooner." Before that memory. She manages to keep her tone measured for the first part, but by those last words she's not even attempting to conceal the bitter anger that roughens her voice and darkens her eyes.

Perhaps the woman from the dream found succor among the rebels. Perhaps she got her revenge. It's a chilly kind of comforting thought, and all so long ago now - but still, she hopes so.

"Even if he was an outlier... he was an admiral, and maybe he was a war hero. But any system that gave someone like that so much power over other people, and let him keep it after what I remember, was a Dragons-damned travesty." Her voice is diamond-hard enough to make steel seem soft, utterly unforgiving.

Orchid isn't looking at Isa anymore. Her gaze is long ago and far away. "Your Faction is worried about us growing into our full power, and turning out the same way as before? Well, so am I, Chosen of Saturn. Even when the faith I believed for most of my life turns out to be a fabrication, so a demon is not literally going to slowly consume my soul - I know what he was. I remember what he was."

Her focus snaps back to Isa, meeting her gaze dead-on. The Solar's eyes are emerald and ice, utterly and deadly serious. "And I would - much - rather die at your Faction's hands than become like him, or contribute to the re-establishment of that order, where to be a Lawgiver meant to be answerable to no one. I've seen where that path leads."

For a moment there's silence. Then some of the focused fury seems to drain out of her. Orchid's lips crook in an expression that is... something like a smile; rueful, painful, ironic. "But my death wouldn't really solve anything, would it? As you said. Someone else would Exalt as Eclipse shortly. Someone else for your colleagues and the Cleansing to hunt, someone else to have him in their head -" One hand moves in a jerky spasmodic gesture toward her forehead, before she forces it to stillness.

"In Nexus - last week the Cleansing killed a Dawn caste. They lost two people doing it, two highly trained Immaculate masters who sacrificed their lives to remove a demon from the world. And last night, his Exaltation returned. Lauren killed him - all he cared about was acquiring as much cash as possible, preferably by violent means - but I imagine someone else will inherit the power soon enough."

She sits back against the wall, and her voice is more sad than angry. "Last week wasn't a victory for the Realm or the Cleansing, Isa. After a year of such weeks... the Realm would have lost a hundred trained, dedicated monks. If every Dragon-Blooded child born on the Isle was dedicated to the Order, sacrificed to this war -" Her voice catches for a moment, stutters, before she goes on, "- could they sustain such losses? And at the end of that year there will still be just as many Solars."

"Unless you're field-testing a large number of possible safeguards, then I suppose it could make sense, but it's been nearly thirty years, Isa! A Lunar told me, the prison broke open and spilled light and darkness alike back into the world - and I know when the deathknights appeared, and from what I've been told that's also when a lot more Solars started to show up than previously."

"I don't..." The Eclipse pauses for a moment to catch her breath, and rub a suspicious glitter from her eyes. "At the end of the First Age - your Faction did a right thing. I'm not going to say it was the only possible right thing, the sole solution, not without hearing from those who believe as Stormwrack does, but I do believe the Great Uprising saved the world. But now...?"

"Maybe it's just self-interest but Isa I don't see how what's happening now actually furthers your goals, if those goals are keep Creation safe rather than kill the Solars. You're feeding the Dragon-Blooded into a meatgrinder and in the meantime the Deathlords are gaining strength and the Yozis have their own Chosen who are working to wreck the world and I just - don't - see."

After that torrent of words, she stops, and pauses for a moment, and sighs. When the Eclipse speaks again her voice is softer, and less thick with emotion. "Sorry. That's been bottled up for a little while. But I really don't. Do you? I know you won't give me details of your plans, but details aside... do you?"

[The_Snark]

Isa watches Orchid thoughtfully. Well. There's an aspect of the Eclipse she hadn't guessed at before. (Though she did mention growing up in Thorns.) It takes a person of strength to Exalt as a Solar - bravery, faith, ambition, something that drives them to extraordinary things - and few of them are willing to set that aside for anything. And yet... Orchid's horror of that long-dead Eclipse seems very real. Once you know that, it's not hard to see past to the fear and self-doubt, the hidden part of Orchid that thinks maybe things would be better if I were dead. Not a side she saw yesterday.

It could be an elaborate act, of course. Why reveal herself like this? But it could be true. Isa never resented her Exaltation, but she was ready for it, in a way. Fate sees to that. What would it be like for the Sun's power to descend upon you all of a sudden, unwanted and unlooked-for, carrying its glorious, terrible legacy?

"Well." Isa looks away as Orchid presses her point home. "Lot of people wondering that. Not about me, I mean, but what the plan is. Whether there is one. I think..." She pauses, and if she hedges now it is not for her own sake. Whatever her doubts, she will not speak ill of her teacher behind his back, to a woman he would consider his enemy. She picks her words carefully. "I think we are stretched very thin. I think the Realm is eroding faster than we can shore it up. And that we have not yet found any better path."

Now she looks back, meets Orchid's eyes. "If you have suggestions, I'm listening. I can't promise anything else."

[Ifni]

Right. Isa's being careful in what she says, but that answer is telling enough.

As for the Sidereal's last words - there's a little flush of satisfaction, there, but mostly it's hope that slips in to replace frustration as a source of tension. She still feels like she's walking a high-wire, but it seems like honesty has paid off so far, even if it was... not entirely easy, to put her fears so nakedly on display. Especially facing that probing, thoughtful gaze.

Orchid nods slowly in acknowledgement, and offers a tentative crooked smile. "I understand. Thank you." Her voice is still soft, and the forcefulness of a moment ago has almost vanished.

"I don't have fleshed-out plans to offer, Isa, and even if I did, I don't think there would be much point." Her smile grows a little wry. "Even if not for your caveat, you have much more information than I do, on which to base decisions."

The Eclipse unfolds her legs, and stretches her arms for a moment, before crossing her hands behind her head and leaning back against the wall. "But I'd be happy to share my thoughts. Sometimes an external viewpoint is helpful."

"Let me... say a few things. These are inferences, mostly. Some of them may be wrong. It's entirely up to you how much you choose to correct or confirm. But errors at this level may be affecting my conclusions."

Orchid closes her eyes, and her soft voice takes on a somewhat clinical tone, precise and careful and measured. "From listening to your colleagues, this is the picture I'm getting of the situation."

"The Gold Faction has a desired end-state in mind, and a direction in which to work to achieve it. To a first approximation, that end-state is 'the First Age, but with nicer Solars'." Her tone is rather dry. "That's second-hand, of course, and I actually would appreciate knowing if that one's a gross misrepresentation; I'm going to talk to Stormwrack next so you'd only be saving me some time."

"For the Bronze... supporting that course, or any close variation on it, is unthinkable. Mostly because of the risks involved in trusting the Solar Exalted with so much power again, but also - I suspect - because it's the Gold position."

"Perhaps I'm overly cynical. But from what I hear - the divisions between Bronze and Gold are deep, and old, and bitter. Feuds between sisters are the worst of all, it's said. I imagine it might be politically difficult for Bronze Faction members to embrace any policy seen as Gold-aligned, or vice versa. Perhaps difficult for these questions to be debated or discussed across factions, without everyone falling back to positions that they must defend or be seen as traitors?"

"And the Bronze doesn't see any alternative course. Not one that's workable." She spreads her hands, palms upward, eyes still closed. "Two paths the Fellowship saw long ago, and those are the same two paths they - you - see today."

"So you're spending the resources built up over centuries to stop anything irreversible from happening while you work on a longer-term solution. It looks like a delaying action because it is. Perhaps the hope is that you can rebuild your safeguard and stop it from being broken again, but if that was easy, it would've been done already. Although at least one Lunar sorcerer thinks that is your plan - as he told me, when arguing that you were greater threats to him and me than any Deathlord." Her voice remains perfectly level. "But if that can't be achieved... at present, the Bronze doesn't have a sustainable end-state goal to work toward, for a world with the Solar Exaltations free in it. Or at least - not one that is known to all its members, or evident from its policies."

Orchid opens her eyes, and looks directly at Isa, her own gaze gentle but questioning. She tilts her head. "Fair, so far? Unfair? Keep talking?"

[The_Snark]

Isa nods after a moment's hesitation. "More or less." Not much of a surprise, really, that she picked up the names of the factions. There are three other Sidereals on board, and Orchid is very good at ferreting out information. As she's proving now.

"I couldn't tell you much about the Gold Faction's ideal end-state, as you put it. They don't go out of their way to give me details." Brief wry smile. Most Sidereals are sounded out by both factions in the course of their training; the Gold recruits very briskly these days. But she was marked out early. "You have it right as far as I know, but I'm sure Stormwrack can tell you more." Isa wishes she could listen in on that. Might be interesting to hear what Stormwrack really thinks, and entertaining if he tries to hold anything back.

"And the feud... yes. Bitter. Not as bad as it could be, but bad enough. Most people think differences are irreconcilable." She shrugs. "There are reasons. Success brings recognition and influence. So lending support to a plan proposed by one faction strengthens them. The factions are strictly unofficial, and our duties require cooperation, but..." Another shrug, tight-lipped; Isa doesn't like talking about this. If Orchid hadn't already put most of the pieces together, if she hadn't been confident she would spot the rest...

[Ifni]

Orchid nods. "I can imagine." She studies Isa, noting the tightening of her lips, and adds quietly, "Working in the East must be... challenging, at times, for you. Stormwrack does not seem like he'd be an easy colleague." She pauses, and the sympathy in her voice turns to something more tart. "Actually, let me be less tactful: part of the reason I'm talking to you first is that Stormwrack was such an utter jerk to you yesterday. I anticipate our conversation being rather frustrating. But yes, I'll ask him."

"For now, though - let me tell you what I want. Where I'd like to end up." The corners of the Solar's eyes crinkle a little. "I don't think it's fundamentally in conflict with your goals, but that's your call as well as mine, and while I suppose I could try to manipulate you in my desired direction, I don't think I could keep it up for very long. You're good at what you do." The lightness in her voice fades. "Anyway, the only glue that reliably holds alliances or collaborations together, temporary or not, is some shared interest. Propaganda and trickery can work for a while but in the end it comes down to whether your goals can be better accomplished together or apart."

"So."

You are about to either do something very important, or make one of the biggest mistakes of your life.

"I want an end to the religious war between the Realm on one hand - perhaps Lookshy too, now - and Lunars and Solars on the other. It's getting a lot of good people killed, and as far as I can see, to no end that's worth their sacrifices. But I don't want that end to come because of defeat for either side." She opens a hand and turns it palm down. "I want to see the Realm change, but I don't want to see it fall, or be subjugated, whether by invasion or Solars wielding mind-controlling magic. I'd like..." A pause to catch her breath, before she continues, voice intense albeit still deceptively soft. "I'd like a future where I can fight beside Cathak Nalis, and Cynis Sar, against threats that are threats to us all. Where I can help, to the best of my abilities, without having to pretend to be someone I'm not. Where when your Fellowship acts to defend Creation you do so with the backing of the Solar and Lunar Hosts, as well as the Dragon-Blooded; where you're not stretched so thin, trying to fight multiple battles at once. Where the Lunars can wage their battle against the raksha without having to worry about Wyld Hunts at their back. Where I can go back to Lookshy with Zhou and not have to worry about him being disowned or court-martialed because of me." She glances reflexively at the door, and perhaps that hides the faint mistiness of her eyes, but it doesn't hide the emotion in her voice. "I don't want to rule. But..." Her voice drops, as she looks down, and very softly says, "I would like to be able to see my parents again, and not see a demon reflected in their eyes."

After a momentary pause, Orchid straightens her back, and folds her hands in her lap, and meets Isa's gaze levelly, her voice strengthening again. "That's my goal, Isa. How I work toward it - so long as it doesn't involve selling out to the Deathlords or those who think like them, I don't much care."

"Your people have influence in the Realm. You can talk to people who'd never listen to a Deceiver, if I could even get a communication to them. So you have something I want, very much. In the converse... I can talk to people who would have a lot of trouble trusting you. That may or may not be something you want now, but if you decide to try something other than the holding pattern - it might be useful."

"Your visions, at the end of the First Age -" The diminutive Solar spreads her hands again, and leans forward slightly. "Like I said, I can't criticize your predecessors' choice. But the path not chosen - showed that there was a way. Yes? That there were possible conditions - strictures, checks-and-balances, reforms - under which the Solars could have redeemed themselves. And that was with Solars who'd lived for millennia in a world that both granted them absolute power and told them it was their right. It can't - Dragons, Isa, it can't be harder to find that kind of solution now. The Bull of the North must be one of the oldest Solars around and he's been Exalted for what, forty years?"

"Back then, yes, it would have been a hideous gamble. But now... the world is different."

Orchid sits back, and her voice grows pensive. "If you'd never had your safeguard, if the Solar Exaltations had returned immediately after the Uprising -" A pause. "I'm guessing, but... people adored them, you said. The Lunars would have wanted revenge. There would have been plenty of people to tell them about the world that was theirs by right, and how they had been wronged."

"Even if it wasn't a permanent solution, a promise that we'd survive forever - the Great Uprising bought time. A millennium, two? I'm not clear on the dates. But time for people to know a world without Solar rulers in it. And in this world those sacrifices bought, where every Solar is young and inexperienced and the power structure of the First Age is no longer the way the world is - it seems there's both more leeway to experiment and a better chance for success."

Her voice grows soft again. "I don't know the answer yet. From what you said, nobody does. Maybe the Gold Faction has ideas...? It did occur to me that perhaps your seniors' strategy is to let the Gold experiment with different methods of working with Solars, while killing anyone not under their protection to provide an incentive for cooperation." She shrugs. "Paranoid as hell, but it could make some kind of sense, if the feud didn't extend to the highest levels - but if that's the plan, I don't think any of the Sidereals on this boat know it."

The Eclipse laces her hands together. "My second-hand report of Stormwrack's pitch made it sound like he thinks early training will be enough to prevent a repeat of the late First Age. Which sounds like the kind of gamble I'd be incredibly surprised to see your Faction support. Maybe his position is actually more complex, and maybe others in the Gold Faction aren't quite so sanguine. But if not... perhaps we can think about other approaches, that would provide more assurance and require less trust?" She smiles, small and brief. "Anything that could convince your Faction would probably suffice to alleviate my own concerns. Skeptics are useful, that way."

"So I guess... I have a concrete suggestion or two, which I'd be happy to share, but well, you know the direction I'm thinking, now. If you're actively opposed to that general goal then those ideas probably won't be very helpful."

"If that's not the case, though - then I suppose I have a question, rather than a suggestion. What do you think it would take, to persuade your teacher that I'm not a threat to the world, or at least a threat that can be tolerated? Or since you can't speak for him - what would it take to persuade you? Do you have any ideas?" Orchid's gaze on Isa is very intent. "Not the general situation, for now, of Solars who might not be happy to contemplate any limits on their power - just me, as a cooperative test case. For this hypothetical, assume I'd be willing to jump through arbitrary hoops to make my point. Swearing sanctified oaths, for example, if you think that could be helpful...?"

"You don't need to answer right away. Sorry. I'm not trying to put you on the spot. But it might be something to think about, what it would take." Orchid smiles faintly, although it doesn't quite reach her eyes, which remain intent and questioning. "And no, this isn't just a very long way of asking you politely not to have me assassinated, although that would admittedly be a nice side benefit if it worked."

[The_Snark]

"I... don't know. I've never spoken to him about anything like that." Isa looks pensive, her eyes drifting away from Orchid. "I'm not looking forward to it, really. 'I met an Eclipse on our last mission, and we got to talking and I think we need to change...' It doesn't sound good." She affects a laugh, but it comes out bleaker than she intended. She stops, sighs, shakes her head.

"Talking with you is hard, you know? You're a diplomat. It's what your Caste is famed for. And it's hard to shake the feeling that, if I come out of a conversation agreeing with you, you've won somehow. Not your fault, maybe, but still. I think you may see a lot of that in days to come."

"Anyway. Creation is different now, that's true. But Yu-Shan... Gods are immortal. Yu-Shan stays much the same. Things are hard in the world right now, and lots of gods miss the good old days. Plenty of people wishing for golden saviors to swoop in and make everything right again. People are like that. Gods too. They're ready to hand power back to you. And it is very hard, I think, to keep the Solar Exalted from taking power. Even you. You say you don't want to rule, but if you found your goals at odds with whatever laws or oversights you put in place - truly at odds, I mean, something that you can't stand - I don't think you would sit by passively and accept it. You'd work to change things. It's hard to subordinate your judgment to somebody else. And eventually, that brings us back to the Gold solution: hope that you can be trusted with that kind of power."

She pauses, drawing herself straighter and lacing her hands together. "That is what you would need, I think. An answer to that dilemma. A plan, something solid. Nobody who isn't leaning Gold already will want to change policy based on the vague hope that we'll come up with a solution later. Nobody in the Bronze will discuss it with you openly, because that would show a lack of faith in current policy; political disaster. Maybe it won't work, maybe people will mistrust your answer just because it comes from you, but you won't get anywhere without one."

"I'm not convinced you can come up with an answer that's good enough. But... I wouldn't be unhappy if you did."

[Ifni]

Orchid opens her mouth as if to reply, but checks herself. She pauses for a beat, and smiles at the Sidereal, warmth this time unalloyed with any more subtle emotion. "Heh. Not the most ringing endorsement I've ever heard, but given the circumstances, I'll take it. Thanks, Isa." There's a little more gratitude in her tone than one would expect from the words alone. Even offering that much probably wasn't easy.

"And you're right, of course." The Eclipse looks away, smile subsiding. "I understand that 'trust us now, we'll figure it out later' might work for the Gold Faction but it won't work for you. And shouldn't, honestly. If I'm ever going to persuade your Faction the plan, and the proofs, probably need to come first. Which is why I'm asking you for advice." She grins slightly, self-deprecating, as she looks back at Isa. "I'm being lazy, I suppose, trying to get you to do the hard work for me."

"But I don't think that a Solar sitting in a room on her own and ruminating is the right way to seek an answer, and not just because some people won't accept any answer if it comes from me. No public discussion, I accept that - but I very much appreciate your willingness to talk about this in private."

"I didn't know that about the gods. I've met one god who liked Solars and disliked Immaculates, but I thought that was mostly because of the worship rules. It makes... more sense, that Stormwrack said your teacher would have me killed if we made enough of a fuss in Yu-Shan, Ayesha Ura and laws against harming Celestial Exalts or not."

"But getting back to your question - how does it work for you? For the Sidereals? You're Celestials, and yet you seem to have done all right at managing your power - at least in the sense that you're not ruling the Realm as tyrants or breaking Creation into little bits. What happens when a Sidereal finds something they truly, absolutely can't stand, that they're not supposed to do anything about?"

[industrious]

Skandi

"I ain't got masters, Wolf-boy; I got bosses. One of the handy benefits of civilization. 'Fraid you're just projecting your own problems regarding Cacophonous Bells onto yours truly."

"...Speaking of which, you're probably going to have to be staying at me own place, the lot of you. If you even look too closely at Rosacarnis, I will use your pelt for a rug."

Lauren

"Thanks, Darling."

Emerald kneels by one of the deck boards, and applies an elbow. A moment later, and he's juggling a pair of oranges, tossing one at Lauren.

"Nobody really likes lutefisk. Except crazy people. But let's see how long before someone objects to the stuff. Bets?"

Child

"We seem to be hosting quite an interesting group of individuals," the Reckoner offers nervously. "...I do hope nothing unfortunate occurs in Yu-Shan."

[Aevylmar]

Skandi laughs. "The difference between a master and a boss is that you can retire from the job your boss gives you. Can you retire from the Bureau of Destiny?"

He shakes his head in amusement. "Anyway, I wouldn't dream of crossing another man's Protectorate - you'd deserve to have my hide for a rug. Of course, only Lunars have proper protectorates, but I suppose I could promote you to honorary Lunar."

[The_Snark]

Isa smiles. "Bureaucracy. Nothing like filling out forms in triplicate to keep you humble and grounded."

Her smile fades. "It does happen, of course." Fleetingly, she thinks of Nocturnals. "People work around the rules, or break them in secret. There's a lot of backroom politics and under-the-table dealing in Yu-Shan, and I expect a fair amount of corruption too, if you know where to look. But - the rules still exist. Breaking them can get us censured, stripped of property or rank, even executed. We're beholden to other people, and we haven't got the raw power to ignore them, like the Solars did. Our strength lies in subtlety, careful planning, consensus."

"There were laws and regulations governing the old Solar Deliberative. But the way I hear it, they didn't much matter unless the Solars chose to enforce them, too. Hard to bring an unruly Solar to account - impossible if there's a group." She pauses, spotting the obvious flaw, and conscientiously adds, "Well, almost impossible. The point is, rules don't matter if they can't be enforced."

[Lix Lorn]

Lauren raises an eyebrow, deftly catching one of the thrown fruit.
"Are you serious..?" she asks, before giving a short laugh. "Are you just... taunting everyone just to see what happens?"

She's rather amused by this.
She's also quite hungry, and starts peeling the orange.

[Ifni]

"Heh. Ban tax accountants for Solars? I guess that's one advantage to leaving Nexus..." Orchid's grin fades as Isa's does, and she listens quietly.

"... right. I'm going to think out loud for a bit. It's entirely possible the resulting ideas will be comically awful, but the fastest way to establish that is probably having someone else shoot them down." The Eclipse smiles slightly at Isa, but her eyes are thoughtful, and determined.

"This may well be a case of when-you-have-a-hammer-everything-looks-like-a-nail, but if Solars were willing to swear Eclipse-bound oaths to keep and uphold these quasi-hypothetical laws and strictures, could that serve as one enforcement mechanism? You wouldn't want it to be the sole one, of course, and there would have to be a threshold - perhaps only have it apply to laws where breaking them would be a felony, or some similar established division. You don't want people to trigger oathbreaking penalties over excessively loud music in their apartments - it would trivialize the whole thing and also make it impossible to promote as a serious idea."

"People would still break such oaths, of course - as you say, if they found something they really couldn't tolerate - but the way they function... I don't know how much you know about such bindings? Maybe more than I do. But my understanding, and it's consistent with my own experience, is that the oathbreaker's curse makes things go wrong for you at the worst possible time. So that would be a pretty strong incentive to work within the law - not so much because of the risk of personal harm, but because if you have a cause that desperately matters to you, keeping your plans legal makes them more likely to work. But of course it'd also probably be considerably easier to stop - or kill - a Solar working under such a curse."

She taps her fingers together, considering. "I think I could sell it. Probably not to everyone -" She thinks of the Solar last night, Dace's ill-fated heir - "but maybe to enough. After all, the reason most people don't commit murder isn't actually that they think their governments will execute them if they do - if it was, police forces would have to be a lot bigger, at least everywhere but Nexus. If the laws are reasonable and people know the rationale - well, unless Solar Exaltation explicitly selects for sociopathy, I'm pretty sure most of us don't want to turn into world-destroying monsters, any more than you want us to. And if you can keep the Cleansing in check, or even just inform people where the Cleansing's going to be, so they can avoid them - which seems like it would be relatively straightforward - your Faction has quite a bit of potential leverage here. I know Stormwrack said the Gold prevents Wyld Hunts in the East, but by the evidence of Dace's death they're a long way from perfect."

"If we also want Solars to help enforce the rules - although we shouldn't be the only ones enforcing them - then it seems like the way to do it is to build a system that's sufficiently better than the alternatives that it's in our own interests to preserve it. Being aware of the alternatives - or lack thereof - will probably help there. If I understand your visions from the First Age correctly, the other option would only have had any chance to work with cooperation from the Solars, which... may be something to keep in mind."

Orchid shrugs, and looks questioningly at the Chosen of Endings. "Thinking out loud, as I said, but... thoughts?"

[industrious]

Lauren raises an eyebrow, deftly catching one of the thrown fruit.
"Are you serious..?" she asks, before giving a short laugh. "Are you just... taunting everyone just to see what happens?"

She's rather amused by this.
She's also quite hungry, and starts peeling the orange.

"Nope," he says. "Words are cheap. Easy. And this boat is filled with social-savvy, manipulative, cruel or obstinate Exalts. Talking will just bring people's guards up. Testing, though...you figure someone out by how they react to situations."

Skandi

He snorts, lets out more bark-like laughter.

"The fact that the Silver Pact would have me as honorary tells me all about what standards you lot have."

"And good try, by the way. I say yes, then there's a whole bunch of potential Sidereals in Creation you can try to find and deal with. I say no, I've conceded a point. Clever doggie."

He flips another filet of lutefisk onto Skandi's plate.

"Have a treat."

[Lix Lorn]

She shrugs.
"Same end, different means. You're poking the simhata to see how hard it bites."

[Aevylmar]

Skandi grins back at Emerald. "Oh, the Silver Pact wouldn't treat you as honorary. Just me. They tend to prefer a rule of 'If you can't protect what's yours, you shouldn't have it'. If you'd had Whisper of Winter as your loremaster, he would've left you in the Wyld with one leg and started looking for your next incarnation."

He glances down at the gift of lutefisk. "Thank you, but don't you want another serving? I wouldn't want you to starve just because you're hosting me."

Spoiler

Show

... This argument is just turning into one of those 'Well, you're incompetent!' 'Well, you're a barbarian!' 'Well, you're incompetent!' 'Well, you're a barbarian!' exchanges, isn't it.

[The_Snark]

Isa purses her lips. "Not that it's a bad idea, but I don't think it's enough. I'm not sure it's even possible to devise a code of law that forbids you from amassing enough influence to be dangerous. Think politics; there are ways to hold power that aren't official, but aren't illegal either. Will you pass laws that forbid Solars from trying to sway the opinions of powerful gods? Will you swear oaths never to lobby against the strictures that bind you? Remember that in this hypothetical scenario, you are the enemy. It's not just about keeping the Solars from falling into arrogance and madness, though I can understand why you'd want to look at that side first. It's about guaranteeing that we'll be safe even if you turn against us."

"You're not a threat to Creation today, Orchid. Nor tomorrow. I trust you that much. But a hundred years from now? A thousand? When you've forgotten what it was like to be small and weak and human, and centuries of wielding the Sun's power have blinded you to the possibility that you could ever fail? When you've dismissed your old fears - and ours - as childish and irrelevant?" She shakes her head. "I can't."

"And I think that maybe the Vision of Gold was simply that: trust. No legal reforms, no laws or oath-bindings, just showing the Solars what we saw and hoping they would take it to heart. It might have worked. Anything is possible, and trust... has a way of wanting to be repaid." For a minute Isa's thoughts are elsewhere, her eyes unfocused. Then she snaps back to Orchid, intent. "Better hope that wasn't it, because you will never persuade the Bronze to take that risk. The Solars already failed us once."

She shrugs. "Sorry. I don't mean to make you do all the thinking either. But if we had ideas, we would have used them already."

[industrious]

Skandi

"Just one loremaster? I had a whole bleeding curriculum to deal with. And Wyld ain't too bad. Now, matching wits with a Second Circle Demon? That's bad."

He waves off the lutefisk, grabs another from a barrel and puts it on the pan.

"No worries, there. I've got enough lutefisk for the whole damn five days. This one's for me."

Emerald

"Well, put it like that, and I suppose."

"...Where'd you find the artifacts, by the way? Adamant ain't exactly common."

[Ifni]

Orchid nods, almost before Isa finishes speaking. "Understood. And yes, I know it wouldn't be enough alone. At the very least you'd have to figure out who would be making these laws, and avoid the scenario where Solars could just rewrite them at will to suit themselves. But guaranteeing you and the world will be safe... I don't know if anything I can come up with will do that."

She sits back and laces her fingers together, eyes going distant for a moment. "The main tools I've used to influence behavior are appeals to people's self-interest both short-term and long-term, social pressure from their peers, and the oath power as a blunt instrument. Well, and certain Charms, but I don't think they'd be very helpful on a long-term basis. If we're looking forward to a possible future where my idea of my own self-interest no longer includes preserving Creation, and where those I regard as my peers all think the same way... I can see the problem. If Solars really do grow as powerful as you're implying - even if I'd sworn an oath that would stop me from defending myself against you, I could just break it, and that would hinder me, but only so far. The oathbreaker's curse is a thin reed on which to balance the world. Zhou agreed to stop me, by force if necessary, if I started behaving like the Eclipse I remember - and at the moment, it's very clear he'd win that fight - but that puts a substantial burden on him, and I suppose I might get better at combat over the course of the next century, especially if we're going to be fighting Deathlords."

The Eclipse sighs, as her eyes come back to Isa. "At the moment - no, I don't see any way forward that provides an ironclad guarantee. But I'm pretty sure that your current course doesn't, either." She smiles slightly, brief and wry. "Maybe you need another prophecy. Solutions with no chance of failure are hard to come by..."

"Your current path - maybe it ensures we Solars won't become a renewed threat, at least as long as you can keep spending the lives of the Dragon-Blooded to prevent it - " A thread of roughness in her voice there, emotion held back "- but you know, and I know, that it isn't a sustainable solution. You can presumably extrapolate your current trajectory and see where you're likely to be in a century, and I bet the answer isn't pretty." Weakened by infighting and the steady drain of its best and brightest to the Cleansing, the Realm can no longer afford to maintain its armies in the field. The Bull of the North breaks the Roseblack's long defense, and a few months or years later, a Solar sets foot on the Blessed Isle as a conqueror. The Immaculate faith driven underground, perhaps the Dragon-Blooded hunted as they have hunted others... And that's just one direction, perhaps the simplest one. Are you seeing what I'm seeing, Isa?

Orchid swallows down the choking fear, and goes on, her voice level. "If the bar we need to clear is 'it's inarguable that this will remove any ongoing threat from the Solar Exalted, for all the ages of the world' then... I don't think it's ever going to happen, short of you discovering a way to actually destroy the power, not just imprison it. If that's what your Faction requires to change their current plan, then we're playing through the motions of a tragedy." Where the ones who saved Creation millennia ago go down to slow wrenching decay and defeat, taking the Realm and possibly the rest of the world with them... She doesn't say that aloud, but there's something of it in the softness of her voice, and the mingled respect and regret in her eyes as she looks at Isa. "Something that puts you - and the Realm, and Creation - in a better position relative to that baseline, ten years or a hundred years down the track, though... not just in immediate terms, but in how prepared you are to deal with threats going forward... that's still going to be hard, but it might be more achievable."

"Anyway. We're not going to find the perfect solution here and now. And we have Thorns and Lookshy to worry about, and that's on a two-month timescale, not a hundred years. We could both be dead in three months and this discussion rather moot, at least as it pertains to the two of us."

"But still... I know your Fellowship's probably thought about this from all possible angles over the last thousand years, and especially in the last thirty, and if you don't have an answer it's likely because the problem is really hard. Except... my guess is that you weren't thinking in terms of having Solars who understood what you were doing, and why you were doing it, and wanted to help." The Eclipse pauses for a moment, then laughs ruefully. "... sorry. Dragons, that sounded really egotistical. You haven't solved this problem for a thousand years, but adding ME to the equation will make everything better! ... but it seems like my help could perhaps provide some extra possibilities, at least."

[industrious]

Skandi

"Just one loremaster? I had a whole bleeding curriculum to deal with. And Wyld ain't too bad. Now, matching wits with a Second Circle Demon? That's bad."

He waves off the lutefisk, grabs another from a barrel and puts it on the pan.

"No worries, there. I've got enough lutefisk for the whole damn five days. This one's for me."

Emerald

"Well, put it like that, and I suppose."

"...Where'd you find the artifacts, by the way? Adamant ain't exactly common."

[Lix Lorn]

She grins slightly at winning, and then is distracted.

"The answer's gonna be kinda boring. What with how I don't know. You'd have to ask Sierra about them."

Spoiler

Show

And I'm glad I had that excuse, what with how I hadn't thought about it...

[Aevylmar]

Skandi laughs as he returns to the lutefisk. "I'm sure your long and grueling training in the lap of luxury in the City of Heaven must have been agonizing, occasionally striking bargains with elder demons from the comfort of your warded summoning circle, divine flunkies ready to burst in if you needed rescuing. Have you ever not had artifacts?" His eyes flash to the hearthstone around Emerald's neck before returning to meet his gaze.

[The_Snark]

Isa shrugs, fatalistic. "Maybe. At least it won't make things worse." I hope.

"I know you don't have a perfect solution. Like I said, I'm not sure there is one. But understand: some in the Bronze won't want to settle for anything less than guarantees. That's the audience you're looking to convince." She shrugs again. "So the closer you get to ironclad, the better off you are."

"But maybe more realistic is to look for a plan that won't make things worse if you're wrong. The Solars today aren't unified. They're scattered across Creation, mired in their personal battles. Dangerous, but not half as bad as a united host. Or even a few well-entrenched circles."

She lapses into silence, feeling that she's harped on about the dangers of Solars enough. Better this than searching for a mythical perfect plan, maybe, but still far from easy. They can hardly use the Solars to help stave off other threats without lending them assistance. Even a quiet informal truce - the least of what Orchid hopes for - would give them a chance to establish themselves. As for ending the religious war...

"Is your family Dragon-Blooded," she asks abruptly. "Because you know that - even if everything goes amazingly well for you in Yu-Shan - we can't snap our fingers and wish the Immaculate Order away. It took generations to spread those beliefs. It'll take generations for them to fade away, most likely. Try to push faster, it could get pretty bloody. Might be like that anyway. You'd live long enough to see the change through, I guess, but your parents wouldn't. Unless - " She peers at Orchid, inquisitive.

It would explain a lot: the way she talks about Dragon-Blooded, the lingering respect for the Immaculate faith, her concern for the Realm... but she grew up in Thorns, didn't she? Not many Dragon-Blooded left alive there, and she doesn't talk like her family is dead.

[Ifni]

Orchid tenses involuntarily; even knowing this was coming, even deliberately dropping clues, it's hard to openly reveal a secret you've spent ten years hiding. But there isn't any other reasonable choice: Isa's too perceptive, and the others on the boat too indiscreet, to think she could conceal it for a full five days. Not to mention the similarities in appearance, and - perhaps most damning of all - the fact that Firada carries Remembrance now. At least this way she can control how it's presented.

That's what she told herself, earlier. But still, at the moment of truth - it's hard.

She could ask for an oath of secrecy. But it would be a bluff, and Isa's good enough at reading people - and loyal enough to her teacher - that she'd probably call it. And in any case -
Trust is death, but sometimes it's worth it.
Trust has a way of wanting to be repaid.

"My family is Dragon-Blooded," the Eclipse agrees quietly. She looks down, at her hands folded in her lap (and the knuckles are white; she hadn't realized she was clenching them so hard), and takes a deep breath. "Specifically, I was born into House Tepet."

She looks back up, gaze meeting Isa's eyes, assessing - and there's a world of fear behind the surface calm, for those perceptive enough to see it. "My parents were on assignment to Thorns, with their daughters. They were out of the city when it fell. My sister and I... were not." She pauses, and then adds quietly, "I was four. She was nine."

Another long breath. "Isa. I will tell you the rest but - it may be important that you know I'm telling the truth." Not just for me. "Will you accept my oath in this?"

A momentary pause, and then - "It is... obvious, the oathbinding. There's a light-show. The others on board may be able to tell broadly what's happened. I don't see a way Stormwrack could use this against you - at least, not more so than the information that you shared a cabin with an Eclipse for five days - but you know your Bureau's politics better than I do, so I'm asking. On the other hand, knowing that I sealed some pledge with you but not what might be rather frustrating for our local Chosen of Jupiter, if that's a positive." For a moment a slightly impish smile brightens the Solar's face, before fading.

Orchid holds out a hand to Isa. She keeps it steady, not shaking, only by a considerable effort of will.

[industrious]

Skandi laughs as he returns to the lutefisk. "I'm sure your long and grueling training in the lap of luxury in the City of Heaven must have been agonizing, occasionally striking bargains with elder demons from the comfort of your warded summoning circle, divine flunkies ready to burst in if you needed rescuing. Have you ever not had artifacts?" His eyes flash to the hearthstone around Emerald's neck before returning to meet his gaze.

"Weren't in Yu-Shan when it happened, wolfie. Second Circle Demon, loose on Creation, and me with neither backup nor me hearthstone. Didn't have the thing back then, in me young and restless youth. Wasn't much older than you when it happened, either. No weapon, no armor, and barely passed me combat basics. Just me mind and quick thinking."

"And, of course, the Exaltation and blessings of the Lady Jupiter. But still."

Lix: Does Lauren have any questions for Stormwrack?

[The_Snark]

Orchid's reaction (hesitation, a sudden careful blankness) tells Isa the answer. That recognition brings a surge of fierce, sudden satisfaction.

It's not that she dislikes Orchid. It's just - she can't escape the feeling that she's been played like a harp throughout this conversation. First an apology, to remind her of last night and soften her, then questions. Every time Isa begins to feel she's giving away too much, Orchid eases away, offers a concession or reveals something about herself. Just enough to keep Isa from clamming up. But she's still in control of the conversation, just as Symphony of Chimes and the woman in red had been the night before. Not deceitful or malicious, necessarily. Just steering Isa the way she wants.

No, she doesn't blame Orchid. But it's a relief to feel she isn't helpless to go along.

Isa considers the outstretched hand, an echoing smile flickering across her face. Stormwrack's going to ask for an oath anyway, though Orchid can't know it yet. And he surely has enough blackmail material already, if he wants to risk his own secrets being exposed... "If you like."

She reaches out to take the hand, wondering what it is that Orchid wants her to believe that badly.