The current main-plot is boring

[Winter]

I'm going to voice this controversial opinion but it has wandered around in my head for a while and now finally forms into something I can express.
The current main-plot is not interesting me a lot and I'll list the reasons in ascending order, from "slightly bad" to "it simply does not work".

Don't get me wrong: I still like the comic and I still enjoy how some characters unfold. I want to see how Durkon and Malack and Belkar tussle it out and all the other things are cool as well.
I like in general what is going on, but the main story of the current arc simply has no *zoom*, it's bland. And here are my reasons:

1. The Linear Guild isn't A-Material
They were bland and cliche when they first appeared and are now in their 3rd or 4th iteration. Yes, we know Nale is a pompous, ineffective Bard. Now we learned he is just the ineffective version of his father. A character that is a mirror image of another character (Nale, Tarquin) can only carry himself so far and surely not as main-antagonist over 800 strips (and continuing... 2 years? by now).
The problem is I have with this that even the characters know it. The author knows it. The characters comment on how lame a second round with Thog would be and it even does not have a "big mystery" to reveal as we already knew who the fake Thog was.
Sabine has a nice subplot on her, but in all honesty: She is pretty, pretty much a cliché character as well. I could like her subplot with "a succubus is in love, now what?" if she was not attached to one of the most bland and pointless characters in the entire strip (Nale). The setup is interesting but without any consequence as I do not care about Nale's emotional state and what goes around with it. I do not want to see if Sabine's feelings lead somewhere, I only think Nale has to leave the comic (death).
I find it puzzling how an author can be that aware his setup is weak (as it was done already several times and in-comic commented on)... and still do it.

Ok, this hung on me disliking the LG and Nale. Let us move to deeper issues.

2. The Three-Sided-Race
We're seeing a three-way race to the McGuffin. In principle, that is a setup that offers a lot of drama. Just not in the current arc, because Rich failed to set up the stakes and something the parties do achieve when they arrive first.
If you set up a race (for real in sports or in fiction) you need to set up the parties, the stakes, and what happens if the good guys win or what happens if the bad guys lose.
This has not happened. If Team Evil wins, nothing happens for now. They have to cast their ritual first and we do not know if that is a problem. We do not know how long it will take. All we know is that if they arrive, the race is not over, the other parties are still in the game.
If the Order arrives first, then... nothing changes. They want to set up some lame defense and still have to face their epic foe. They do not press the "disarm" button, they do not gain a tactical advantage over Tarquin or Xykon that would add "drama", that would make the reader "feel" Xykon must not succeed and that the Order must win. If the Order arrives first, they set up a campsite, call some things... and wait. Wuhh? Why race in the first place?
If Tarquin wins (I think we all agree he has more influence on what is going on with the LG)... then... well... Tarquin has no real clue on the gates, he just knows he wants them because they are there. He could achieve that much better with sending an army to put up camp in the desert. As far as we know (and that is all that matters in regard to the "knowing the stakes to create drama"), he has nothing he can do with the gate at all. He's not even a caster. Maybe Sabine being at the gate causes something "bad", but we were not told that. Tarquin is only in it not because it is THE McGuffin, but because it is SOME McGuffin to him.
And as above nothing immediately changes if Tarquin wins. There's nothing happening that would kick the Order as well as Team Evil out of their fight, they would just arrive when they arrive.
The race Tarquin told the Order about ("If we fail, Tarquin will raise an army!") is more interesting that this setup as it has clear stakes. It is known what must not happen and what the consequence would be when the Evil Team wins.

Furthermore, the location of the race is boring. Even worse, we have not yet even seen all parties arrive. The LG is outside, Team Evil is somewhere, and the Order is inside not really racing but Dungeon Crawling their way through an empty dungeon. Yes, the dungeon has some traps and whatnot, but it is static content that we know is no real threat to anyone, especially not to Haley with lots of time (there's no sense of drama in the race, see above) and meatshields and healers to shield her from whatever is summoned.
While the Order is in there, we do not know what the other parties in this "race" are doing. Team Evil is unknown to us and the LG is "Somewhere in the desert". Does that sound like the finale of an olympic sprint? Not really. More like a practice session you're holding alone.

3. The Stakes in General
This has bothered me for a long, long time. The comic was about preventing the world from getting destroyed by a being of pure chaos. We had a super-powerful caster who wanted to release just that being.
Even back then this dramatic plot wasn't under as much pressure as it could have been, as we already knew Xykon would not let the Snarl lose. He'd not even be in control of the gates. The Dark One was the one in control and in all serious, we did see he was a reasonable guy who, in some way, has been wronged. The Snarl in his hands, and that is what we all believed would happen, might be uncomfortable to some gods and some humans who might have to relocate from a good city to make space for goblins, but it's far from "The Snarl in the Hands of Xykon" or "The Snarl eats everyone".
But Rich took that away as well. We, the readers, saw there's no Snarl in the Rift. We do not know what it is, but we saw it's apparently not something that eats Xykon or Blackwing and whatever comes close to the rift. The rifts, actually, seem to be pretty harmless, as they do not eat Gobbotopia/Azure City. No surprise if there's a planet in there.
Again, the point is not if Rich knows there's still some danger, that is yet to be revealed. The point is that it can only be as dramatic as we think the stakes are and honestly, a peaceful planet inside a rift isn't that dramatic. What if Xykon succeeds? Then the Dark One can steer around a rift to other planes of existence and... nothing happens.

Imagine you live in a house that is about to collapse but you do not know that. There is something that is dramatic, but as you do not know it is dramatic, it is not. What matters is your believe what might or could or would happen. The main story has taken all our believes what "bad" could happen. This goes that far that the Big Bad is constantly undermined in "who bad it would be" if he won. Xykon, as powerful and horrible as he is as creature, wasn't the big threat in the first place (due to Redcloak's lie to him), the Plan got the teeth pulled (Snarl -> mostly harmless planet), and there are also eggs laid in the basket his Super Creature might actually make its own choices before the end.

To be blunt: Me/us having to trust the author to re-add drama and higher stakes at some point later in the main story (years after taking it out!) is just, no offense to the author, who's doing a lot of things very well, bad writing. It's all about what we are told what the stakes are and right now, there are not any beyond the immediate consequences for the characters involved - which is well-written as always, but without a gripping main plot somewhat pointless.

[Finagle]

I think you're overthinking it and getting inside your own brain. Not much of this makes sense to me.

At least we're on the main plot. The Empire of Blood took ninety strips and over a year to get out of! After the first thirty or so I was impatient and restless and then the arena thing happened and it was obvious we weren't going anywhere anytime soon.

[Killer Angel]

I don't agree, but I appreciate your effort.

The only part I agree with, for personal liking, is that I don't consider the Linear Guild as "A-Material". That's why we have Tarquin, as current real antagonist.

[Mike Havran]

I appreciate the effort you put into your statement but I have to disagree with it. I mean, if you consider the current plot boring, what about the entire DStP? No gate to find and/or use, the Order scattered and fighting minor antagonists.

To me, I like the way comic has slowly shifted from Roy vs Xykon battle. OK, there is Snarl, but is was just additional danger. Now, more Order members, particulary Elan, are getting into spotlight and getting into issues that have ultimately only little in common with the main goal. I like it that way, because I always preferred meatier character developement over swift story flow (I mean, if it's well-written, but that's certainly the case here).

About the Snarl thing...I think the Giant is known to play with the expectations of the audience long enough and I don't believe anything that is inside is harmless. IMO, the way the rift unravels and casts wierd colors on everything around is pretty creepy. One doesn't need the snarly paws around.

[SowZ]

I think you are underestimating Tarquin a little. If Tarquin gets to the gate first, I believe he will do something surprising and game changing. As for Team Evil vs. TOOTS, I look at it this way. If the Order gets there first they will have a tactical advantage. Not enough to stop Xykon. But maybe enough to slow him down so that they can destroy the gate if necessary. Should Team Evil arrive first, though, the defenses they could offer certainly could be enough to stop the Order. They won't underestimate the Order like they did the first time. If team evil wins the race, it is bad news.

The stakes could be a little higher, okay. But I expect they will ramp up in the climax at the final gate, and I expect them to ramp up more within this arc, too. Part of the problem here may be that the scale just doesn't seem to match the Azure City Gate scale. A second huge battle would be overdoing it, though, IMO. And this arc is focusing on the characters a little more than a massive action build-up. (Note: I love the battle for Azure City and reread it sometimes. Hopefully no one took it as derogatory on that arc.) This arc works fine, in my mind, even if it isn't at the same intensity level of the last Gate battle. I am kind of waiting for it to go full speed, though. It does seem to be missing something. And that something is probably Team Evil.

I'm not really huge on Nale either, honestly, but I'm okay with him being around when he helps us develop other characters, (Elan, usually, but now the Tarquin-Nale dynamic is worth watching.) He can be good for jokes, too. And this last arc has developed Nale some, too. I'm still not all that emotionally invested in him, but he interests me a little more now. If Tarquin wasn't really in charge, though, I would be pretty bored by the Linear Guild in this particular arc. Fortunately, Tarquin is in charge and I fully expect he already has a few plans we don't know about.

As for us not knowing about the Snarl or its threat, what helps balance that out in my mind is the IFCC. They seem to be in the know and have a lot of power. The fact that they are so interested and willing to put so much on the line to win the gates for themselves tells me that whatever IS behind the rifts is still a big frikkin deal. Worst case scenario is not, 'Dark One gets his plan to go off without a hitch.' That is far too simple. I don't know what it is, but I am sure there is a possibility that is far worse in the mix.

[Savil]

The first post has a real lot of "if"s, and judging things that haven't happened yet is not a good thing. Wait until the main plot will actually be fully revealed to criticize it.

Aside from that, this is a problem of readers' perception of any ongoing webcomic - even one page a day is a slow pace comparing to books or movies. That is why people have too much time to overthink about the plot. Reading the compilation is an entirely different experience, which may significantly change your perspective.

[Paseo H]

I'm trying to wrap my head around how any of this is constructive at all.

[Chantelune]

If the Order arrives first, then... nothing changes. They want to set up some lame defense and still have to face their epic foe. They do not press the "disarm" button, they do not gain a tactical advantage over Tarquin or Xykon that would add "drama", that would make the reader "feel" Xykon must not succeed and that the Order must win. If the Order arrives first, they set up a campsite, call some things... and wait. Wuhh? Why race in the first place?

Because when you know that one evil party is on the move and that a second, more powerful, one might start going there at any time, you don't sit on your thumb doing nothing. The earlier they reach the gate, the more time they will get to prepare themselves, set traps, eventually contact allies like Hinjo who will let them know that Xykon has left AC, etc... They'll get more time to think about the situation and prepare to cover most threats.

If they wait for the last moment to rush there, at best they'll have a couple hours/minutes to prepare themselves and will have to adapt on the fly. Not even speaking about the casters not having time to prepare their spells for the upcoming battle.

So the real question there would be : Why would they not race ?

[Priceguy]

Interesting post. I see most of your points; can't really say you're not broadly correct. My main quibble is with your conclusions from what Blackwing saw in the rift. You're claiming it's a harmless, peaceful planet and no Snarl, but that is not so. We know nothing of the planet; it's a huge mystery whose resolution I'm most curious about. Nothing says there's no Snarl. In fact, until your post I didn't entertain the notion that there was no Snarl at all.

There might not be, of course. There are several possibilities. The story we've heard may be an utter lie, but I think that would be too dramatically flaccid to be the case; we're too invested in the backstory. The Snarl may have gone through the same deal again, inside the world, and thus there is a new world in there, trapping the Snarl. Possibly containing another world and so forth. Or maybe the Snarl has changed over time and created something.

Of course, this doesn't invalidate any other point of yours. I just felt you had assumed too much at this moment in time. As for the rest, I find myself agreeing with you... and yet I look forward to each new strip with the fevered urgency of a junkie. Part of it is because very exciting things are happening right now with the Durkon-Malack fight, but mainly it is because of The Giant.

I think he is an absolutely brilliant storyteller. So when the story goes strange places I don't think "the drama has been killed", I think "what amazing things is The Giant going to pull on us now?". I might find the story boring if I didn't have such trust in him as a writer. That's why I don't agree with your final paragraph. He's never disappointed me so for me the drama is in looking forward to what we will get to see. I, for one, can't wait.

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm trying to wrap my head around how any of this is constructive at all.

That's because the OP didn't have any suggestions for fixing the problems he sees. He's merely stating his dissatisfaction.

To a certain degree, I agree with him. Which is to say that I can't fully disagree with any of the points he raised. There certainly is a lack of pressure and drama considering how much more we the readers know about what is going on than any of the main characters do.

However, this story arc seems to be more about giving plot development to the OOTS's secondary characters. More time is being spent on issues of family and friendship which, while certainly important, are not parts of the main story. So it's not incorrect to say that the main plotline has been lacking recently. Our story's main villain has hardly had any appearances lately, and when he did it was really more as a function of character development for Redcloak. He was the only reason it switched the focus back to Gobbotopia. More could have been done to advance the main story there, but it cut back to the Western Continent as soon as Redcloak's personal bit was finished with.

Now personally, I am not one to criticize the Giant. I greatly appreciate the way he develops realistic characters and I am glad that this part of the story is being told. I long for the time when Xykon will return in all his villainous glory, but for now this story is still great and getting better the further we go. The story we are getting right now may not be as dramatic on a grand scale as what we've gotten in the past, but it is still filled with drama of a more personal nature. Now it's possible that the OP does not care so much about the minutae of these characters' lives, but I have grown quite attached to these characters over the last 5 years or so. So while I recognize that the OP has something of a point, all I can say is:

"Keep up the great work, Rich!"

[Snails]

I think you are both underestimating Tarquin and underestimating Roy.

It is entirely plausible for a party like the Order to defeat Xykon with preparation, good team work, and but a little luck. Xykon is an uneven tactician who makes many mistakes. Yes, Xykon's frivolity is partially a ruse; he is quite capable of great mental focus when he thinks it important. But at a perceptiveness and consistency level he is not that much better than Darth V. Xykon thinks that the Order is not worth thinking about, having squashed both Roy and Darth V in single combat. Xykon is not going to plan how to fight the Order. He is going to make errors.

What the Order can accomplish against the full Team Evil is a tougher one. Redcloak is formidable and learning quickly. But we do already know there are cracks in that alliance.

Tarquin is a careful planner with immense resources at his command. Whatever Roy can do Tarquin can probably do better. Tarquin's weakness is his family -- if he had only rallied his entire team for a few days, the Gate would already be captured. That will prove to be an error. But it is not an error because Tarquin is incapable of better; it is an error because it is in Tarquin's nature to overlook the potential danger of some kinds of threats.

I do, however, see your point about Nale. Basically, that there will be another showdown with Elan + Nale has been telegraphed. To the Giant's credit, what we are seeing now is actually a three-way Tarquin + Elan + Nale showdown. This has taken many strips to unfold because the Giant has been writing so much good stuff along the way. That cannot be a bad thing!

Another way to look at it is the Linear Guild is not important anymore because it is failing the Evolve Or Die test. All that is left is Sabine's arc to play out. Tarquin has seized the limelight of the LG, and now it is all about Tarquin vs. Elan. Nale is a pawn.

[Koo Rehtorb]

I didn't care for the beginning of this story arc, but as soon as the party got to the Empire of Blood it quickly turned into my favorite OotS arc ever.

[snikrept]

Comes down to personal taste, I guess.

For me, I'd rather read about enigmas and puzzles that must be revealed, alongside interesting characterization, than, say, the twists of nailbiter drama regarding a second-to-second race against The Inevitable World-Ending Doomsday Clock. That trope shows up way to much in fantasy literature for my taste.

What is the nature of the rift? seems a more interesting question to me than Who will control the rift first?, for example

[ti'esar]

It's all about what we are told what the stakes are and right now, there are not any beyond the immediate consequences for the characters involved - which is well-written as always, but without a gripping main plot somewhat pointless.

I disagree with this.

[Incom]

The first post has a real lot of "if"s, and judging things that haven't happened yet is not a good thing. Wait until the main plot will actually be fully revealed to criticize it.

Aside from that, this is a problem of readers' perception of any ongoing webcomic - even one page a day is a slow pace comparing to books or movies. That is why people have too much time to overthink about the plot. Reading the compilation is an entirely different experience, which may significantly change your perspective.

This, really. I'm the type who is practically hanging on every update, so slow pacing (at least in this comic) doesn't bother me at all.

[SavageWombat]

Has the OP gone back and re-read the strips in the archive?

Maybe the pacing will feel better in book format. Just a thought.

[AgentofHellfire]

I agree, on the whole, that the gripping, epic plotline of the Order of the Stick--the whole snarl conflict--is a rather important finale to have.


I think it's also important to note, though, that this comic has already gone on for 800 (almost 900) strips, and that's supposed to be "only halfway through". If there weren't unrelated subplots, I'd honestly be surprised.

And the Order is, if they get to the gate, in a much better position to destroy it, should Xykon show up. That could be important.

As for the issues you raise with the snarl...that it's not the void staring back when you look in doesn't necessarily mean the snarl isn't dangerous to the world of OOTS.

[KillianHawkeye]

Pacing is not even the issue here. Nobody is talking about pacing.

The issue is that the "Saving the World" drama has been replaced by "My Dysfunctional Family Who Incidentally I Also Need to Save the World From" drama. And the problem with that is that saving the world from Tarquin and company IS incedental to the main plot of stopping Xykon and Redcloak. It is because of this fact that Xykon and Redcloak have hardly made more than the one appearance in hundreds of strips.

Now, I like where this story arc is going as much as anybody. But denying that we've taken a detour into territory where a majority of the drama is caused by relatively unimportant side characters doesn't help anybody either.

As far as I'm concerned, the only things since the start of this book that have been parts of the main Xykon-Gate storyline were: searching the wrong part of the desert for Girard's gate, Redcloak's plotting and Xykon getting his (fake) phylactery back, getting to the Windy Canyon, and V finding out about killing the Draketooth clan.

All that other stuff about the Linear Guild, Haley's dad, Elan-Tarquin-Nale, Elan-Malack, and even Malack-Durkon; while all of them are great stories which I enjoyed reading, I can still recognize that they are all personal quests and side stories compared to the main overall plotline. Those are all great pieces of character development, but the OP's complaint is basically that the main plot has taken the proverbial back seat to character development. All of these things are important, but only insofar as they are important the the characters involved.

[Gift Jeraff]

I like the Linear Guild more than Team Evil.

Well, until they went all mainstream and recruited Tarquin.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Haven't bothered to read the rant; the subjective (or even objective) reasons Winter may have for thinking the main plot of the comic are likely valid to him. Me agreeing or disagreeing with those reasons is irrelevant to him.

I will say this, though: Winter, if you find the main plot boring, then hopefully you find other parts of the comic entertaining. The gag-a-page format, for example. Or the character development. Or the side plots. If none of that is entertaining, then the best thing you can do is stop reading. Rich cannot possibly please 100% of the population that tries to read his comic. If you don't like it, sorry for you, mate, but Rich need not cater to your likes and dislikes. In fact, I will argue that he shouldn't cater to your specific likes and dislikes. A writer creates things that please him, not anyone else. If he is lucky, and good at what he does, his likes will match those of his readership. But the moment an author tries to please everyone, that's when things usually go horribly wrong: that is why so many authors stay well away from their fandoms.

Now, usually the short answer is "well, you create a webcomic with an interesting main plot". It is a rather reactionary answer, but unfortunately, it is the only advice you can get. Not necessarily create your own, but if the main thing you look for in a web comic is an interesting main plot, and OotS isn't doing it for you, for better or for worse, the only recourse left for you is to find one that does fulfill your desire. If you go to the Webomics subforum, you can get a large number of recommendations.

Yours,

Grey Wolf

[Deepbluediver]

So if you don't like it or have gotten bored with it then don't read it. Or do what I do with some webcomics- only check back every couple of months and read a whole pile of updates at once.

And frankly, your complaints seem minor at best; I can boil most of them down to "we haven't reached a more satisfying conclusion, yet".

I said this yesterday in another thread after mentioning the bad webcomics wiki: there are comics that I don't like and others that never interested me in the first place, but none that I ever felt such an intense....dislike for, that I felt the need to rag on the author about it in public.

[Lecan]

Yes, we know Nale is a pompous, ineffective Bard.

He isn't a Bard. I know it's a minor issue, but it exemplifies why you have a problem with the story.

Sabine has a nice subplot on her, but in all honesty: She is pretty, pretty much a cliché character as well. I could like her subplot with "a succubus is in love, now what?"

That's hardly her most interesting subplot.

The setup is interesting but without any consequence as I do not care about Nale's emotional state and what goes around with it. I do not want to see if Sabine's feelings lead somewhere, I only think Nale has to leave the comic (death).

If you don't connect with the characters (which is fine), you aren't going to care about the story. Why then, do you post in the message board about it? I minored in English literature in college. The Giant is no hack writer. He is extremely adept at telling a story you don't care for but are unable to express the reasons why you do not.

If the Order arrives first, then... nothing changes. They want to set up some lame defense and still have to face their epic foe. They do not press the "disarm" button, they do not gain a tactical advantage over Tarquin or Xykon that would add "drama", that would make the reader "feel" Xykon must not succeed and that the Order must win.

What do you think a tactical advantage is if a chance to entrench and call allies in is not one? The nature of guarding is that it is passive until a threat is present.

3. The Stakes in General
This has bothered me for a long, long time. The comic was about preventing the world from getting destroyed by a being of pure chaos. We had a super-powerful caster who wanted to release just that being.

The point is that it can only be as dramatic as we think the stakes are and honestly, a peaceful planet inside a rift isn't that dramatic. What if Xykon succeeds? Then the Dark One can steer around a rift to other planes of existence and... nothing happens.

The X-Files had an excellent run and made a lot of money on a nebulous danger that may not have been anything at all. I think you may need to re-learn what you think you know about drama and what makes a successful story.

To summarize, while you certainly are entitled to your opinion, I really don't understand your points. I think this just may be the wrong type of story for you. Sure, it's wordy at times and sure a plot can drag on when the author is unable to create a new episode every day or week. These things don't mean the core nature is bad. There is drama, just the drama of the unknown instead of the drama of a cocked gun.

TL;DR: While I don't think you understand what's really going on, you're free to dislike something. I don't understand how you think this thread is going to change anything though.

[AgentofHellfire]

All that other stuff about the Linear Guild, Haley's dad, Elan-Tarquin-Nale, Elan-Malack, and even Malack-Durkon; while all of them are great stories which I enjoyed reading, I can still recognize that they are all personal quests and side stories compared to the main overall plotline. Those are all great pieces of character development, but the OP's complaint is basically that the main plot has taken the proverbial back seat to character development. All of these things are important, but only insofar as they are important the the characters involved.

And I acknowledged that the main plot was--for the moment.

The for the moment, to me, is important to note, as it's a long series and we do need and have time for some sort of filler. A "dramatic pause", almost, in the plot.

[Winter]

I think you are underestimating Tarquin a little. If Tarquin gets to the gate first, I believe he will do something surprising and game changing.

That's the thing: We do not know what the stakes are but we have to trust the author will do something cool or it would be uncool. That's "reasoning backwards", which is not how a story gets interesting.

The first post has a real lot of "if"s, and judging things that haven't happened yet is not a good thing. Wait until the main plot will actually be fully revealed to criticize it.

The thing is: in this specific format we are reading the story as it unfolds. It has to work as whole as well as "work in progress". It's part of this medium here. Apart from that, I also dislike books that aren't dramatic while they run but explain why it was dramatic on the last ten pages.

That is why people have too much time to overthink about the plot. Reading the compilation is an entirely different experience, which may significantly change your perspective.

This isn't about pacing.

I'm trying to wrap my head around how any of this is constructive at all.

It's not. If I think the comic is awesome, I will do so. And did it a lot in the past. When I think it does not work for me, I ponder it. The above post was the result of why I think I had the feeling the main plot does not work for me.
People also interpret and dissect Shakespeare's works and it's not like they can influence it in any constructive way as well.
In fact, I do not expect to influence anything and I even strongly hope I cannot.

Has the OP gone back and re-read the strips in the archive?

Several times. And I have read the books. Several times.

Maybe the pacing will feel better in book format. Just a thought.

This isn't about pacing.

If there weren't unrelated subplots, I'd honestly be surprised.

Subplots are good and fine. And most of them do work very well. My issue is the main plot does not work (for me).

As for the issues you raise with the snarl...that it's not the void staring back when you look in doesn't necessarily mean the snarl isn't dangerous to the world of OOTS.

As it currently stands, there is no Snarl.

The issue is that the "Saving the World" drama has been replaced by "My Dysfunctional Family Who Incidentally I Also Need to Save the World From" drama.

The issue is "Saving the World and Lots of Character Development and Sublots" got replaced with "Character Development and Subplots". There is no more Saving the World. The characters believe they still are doing that but for us it is clear that's not really an issue for now. All information we have points us to Xykon being less dangerous (for the world) than we thought and that there is in fact no Snarl.

All that other stuff about the Linear Guild, Haley's dad, Elan-Tarquin-Nale, Elan-Malack, and even Malack-Durkon; while all of them are great stories which I enjoyed reading, I can still recognize that they are all personal quests and side stories compared to the main overall plotline. Those are all great pieces of character development, but the OP's complaint is basically that the main plot has taken the proverbial back seat to character development. All of these things are important, but only insofar as they are important the the characters involved.

The subplots are the reason I still enjoy OotS. I do not care how many detours we take as long as the main plot stays "dramatic". It can take a backseat for a while (a long while) but if you pull all its teeth it might be a tad too far.

Haven't bothered to read the rant;

It's no rant. And I'm not bothering to read what you write below. (In fact, I bothered to read it, but I don't want to honor you with an extensive answer if my initial post is tl;dr).

Now, usually the short answer is "well, you create a webcomic with an interesting main plot".

No, it's a silly advice and three planets besides any point you could make.

If you go to the Webomics subforum, you can get a large number of recommendations.

Reading my post could have given you some insight in if I want to do that or not.

So if you don't like it or have gotten bored with it then don't read it.

Not the point. I like OotS or I would not have bothered to write something. The point is an epic work where the epic plot is shot down isn't running for the gold medal.

And frankly, your complaints seem minor at best; I can boil most of them down to "we haven't reached a more satisfying conclusion, yet".

Not the point. The conclusion of the story isn't the issue, but the motivation of it running.

I said this yesterday in another thread after mentioning the bad webcomics wiki: there are comics that I don't like and others that never interested me in the first place, but none that I ever felt such an intense....dislike for, that I felt the need to rag on the author about it in public.

You're wrong. I very much like OotS for many reasons people have dropped above. I share them all.

He isn't a Bard. I know it's a minor issue, but it exemplifies why you have a problem with the story.

A major point of Nale is that he tried to build a bard with other classes without being a bard. So yes, he is an ineffective bard (without being a bard). Elan (early) and Tarquin (late) very much commented on that.

If you don't connect with the characters (which is fine), you aren't going to care about the story.

Yes, that is the issue I raised with the LG. The thing is, I care about all other characters, but the mainplot is still bland, as there's (right now) nothing at stake that we know off.

Why then, do you post in the message board about it? I minored in English literature in college. The Giant is no hack writer. He is extremely adept at telling a story you don't care for but are unable to express the reasons why you do not.

Who said I don't care about the comic? And no one said he is a hack writer. I said I think he did very many things very well, but imo fudged the main story by taking the pressure out.
And I think I have been very able to express why I think the main story does not work for me.

The X-Files had an excellent run and made a lot of money on a nebulous danger that may not have been anything at all. I think you may need to re-learn what you think you know about drama and what makes a successful story.

Oh, please. Don't do this "I know better" from above. I'm not doing it and I feel offended if you try it.
The X-files worked awesome as long as the thread was nebolous and started to suck after season 5 when they tried to resolve it.

To summarize, while you certainly are entitled to your opinion, I really don't understand your points. I think this just may be the wrong type of story for you. Sure, it's wordy at times and sure a plot can drag on when the author is unable to create a new episode every day or week. These things don't mean the core nature is bad. There is drama, just the drama of the unknown instead of the drama of a cocked gun.

Not the point. The story is awesome. There's just nothing at stake when the pressure was left out by showing us there's no real threat coming from the rifts.
And the issue is there's no "drama of the unknown". It's very much known and proven right now that a massive, open rift just above a city does not eat the world. That contradicts everything we are told about the Snarl and we've even seen a reasonable explanation for it: There is no Snarl within the rifts. That is not "the mystery of the unknown", that is opening the wardrobe, switching the light on and showing the kid there's no monsters hidden in it.

TL;DR: While I don't think you understand what's really going on, you're free to dislike something.

I am sorry, but for someone who admits not to not really have understood it you were very judgemental and educating from above.

I don't understand how you think this thread is going to change anything though.

Why do you assume I want to change something? I do not think I can change something and I do not WANT to change something.
I want to talk about one of my favorite webcomics that does a lot right and is a source of great enjoyment. I want to talk about some points where I think it is totally odd or not working. I like discussing stuff.
I do not get where people get the idea I dislike the comic, want to change it, am angry or whatever.

But I know that anything but "THIS IS AWESOME" creates counter-pressure. I can live with that.

[Lecan]

And the issue is there's no "drama of the unknown". It's very much known and proven right now that a massive, open rift just above a city does not eat the world. That contradicts everything we are told about the Snarl and we've even seen a reasonable explanation for it: There is no Snarl within the rifts. That is not "the mystery of the unknown", that is opening the wardrobe, switching the light on and showing the kid there's no monsters hidden in it.

Except that what actually happened was we don't know if the monster is different from what we thought, if it moved from the closet and is now under the bed or if the real monster is the person who told us to be afraid of the closet. That's why I suspect this isn't the entertainment for you. It's not the cocked gun and you don't like it.

I am sorry, but for someone who admits not to not really have understood it you were very judgemental and educating from above.

I did not say I don't understand the comic. I did not say I don't understand your post. If you are unable to comprehend one sentence, my point about this potentially not being the webcomic for you stands.

Why do you assume I want to change something? I do not think I can change something and I do not WANT to change something.
I want to talk about one of my favorite webcomics that does a lot right and is a source of great enjoyment. I want to talk about some points where I think it is totally odd or not working. I like discussing stuff.
I do not get where people get the idea I dislike the comic, want to change it, am angry or whatever.

When you fundamentally don't understand the storyline, discussing the work becomes almost impossible.

But I know that anything but "THIS IS AWESOME" creates counter-pressure. I can live with that.

I think I argue with you on Facebook periodically.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It's no rant. And I'm not bothering to read what you write below. (In fact, I bothered to read it, but I don't want to honor you with an extensive answer if my initial post is tl;dr).

It is a rant: it is a self-congratulatory subjective opinion post seemingly designed to raise heckles rather than to provide an avenue for thoughtful discussion.

I skipped your arguments not because I thought it was too long to read, but because of the Medical Test rule: "Before you take a medical test, consider what you will do if A) it is positive and B) it is negative. If the answer to A) and B) is the same, don't take the test.".

I think that the main plot of OotS is gripping. I can see how people would disagree. You are not going to change my mind, regardless of what subjective arguments you use, and I am not going to change yours, regardless of how finely crafted my subjective counter-arguments are.

Thus, I can skip said arguments and try to get to the heart of the matter: why are you bothering to tell us this? To incense us? To make yourself feel better? To make you feel superior to Rich by pointing out what a terrible writer you think he is and how much better you would craft his story than he is doing?

I gave you the benefit of the doubt; now, I'm not so sure.

Grey Wolf

[Paseo H]

It is a rant: it is a self-congratulatory subjective opinion post seemingly designed to raise heckles rather than to provide an avenue for thoughtful discussion.

I skipped your arguments not because I thought it was too long to read, but because of the Medical Test rule: "Before you take a medical test, consider what you will do if A) it is positive and B) it is negative. If the answer to A) and B) is the same, don't take the test.".

I think that the main plot of OotS is gripping. I can see how people would disagree. You are not going to change my mind, regardless of what subjective arguments you use, and I am not going to change yours, regardless of how finely crafted my subjective counter-arguments are.

Thus, I can skip said arguments and try to get to the heart of the matter: why are you bothering to tell us this? To incense us? To make yourself feel better? To make you feel superior to Rich by pointing out what a terrible writer you think he is and how much better you would craft his story than he is doing?

I gave you the benefit of the doubt; now, I'm not so sure.

Grey Wolf

I'd like to hear the answer to this as well.

[Doran]

I skipped your arguments not because I thought it was too long to read, but because of the Medical Test rule: "Before you take a medical test, consider what you will do if A) it is positive and B) it is negative. If the answer to A) and B) is the same, don't take the test.".

But why then explicitly state you didn't read part of his post? And then (presumably) expect him to read all of yours?

Sorry but I can't see how this move would do anything other than irritate the other person in the conversation.

[Winter]

It is a rant: it is a self-congratulatory subjective opinion post seemingly designed to raise heckles rather than to provide an avenue for thoughtful discussion.

Thanks for the veiled accusation of trolling, btw.

"Before you take a medical test, consider what you will do if A) it is positive and B) it is negative. If the answer to A) and B) is the same, don't take the test.".

I'm not getting what this comparison might mean in this context.

I think that the main plot of OotS is gripping. I can see how people would disagree. You are not going to change my mind, regardless of what subjective arguments you use, and I am not going to change yours, regardless of how finely crafted my subjective counter-arguments are

.

And I think it could be gripping. If something was at stake. This way, I feel nothing when reading the main plot and I think it should not be this way.
Who said I want to change your mind? I listened into myself why I do not give a damn for the race to the gates while I enjoy the rest of the comic very much and this here is my answer. Of course it is subjective and we surely could discuss about all kind of things. We could for example find out if I'm not overvalued the lack of direction due to the lack of an actual threat we're seeing.
You might want to consider that there is no objective truth, so everything you believe, perceive or hold dear is subjective. Dismissing something because "it's subjective anyway" leaves very little in this world (including fictional ones) left to talk about.

Thus, I can skip said arguments and try to get to the heart of the matter: why are you bothering to tell us this? To incense us? To make yourself feel better? To make you feel superior to Rich by pointing out what a terrible writer you think he is and how much better you would craft his story than he is doing?

I am not sure if you bothered to read what I wrote above this time around. Your questions are all answered (and thanks for coming up with the troll-accusation again).
If I wanted to "incense you", which somehow means I'm not part of you, which is silly given I like the same comic and that is like the defining element of "us" around here, I'd surely have written something else.
I fail to see how I feel better now.
I fail to see where you get the idea I want to feel superior to the author or where I said he was a terrible writer in general (I even said the contrast) and I surely fail to see where I said I could do better (I do not even want to attempt this).
This is all stuff you read into it that wasn't there.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt; now, I'm not so sure.

No, you did not. You did not even read the first post as you admitted. On your second post, you openly accused me of trolling and asked a number of questions which clearly indicate you're already having a strong opinion.

To repeat it: I do like OotS and wrote what I wrote because I found something that I think that does not fit and that has bothered me for a long, long time. Sorry for bringing up a post that does not praise every piece of this comic to heavens, but it's part of my long-term reading-experience (since we saw what is behind the rifts). And I am really puzzled how Rich makes 4th wall jokes how lame another round with enemy X is - and then does it anyway. I'm not saying I'm better, I do not feel better now, I'm not trying to troll you, I'm not trying to troll Rich, but I am really not getting it. And this here is the place where I talk about OotS, and therefore, this thread is here.

[dps]

Now, I like where this story arc is going as much as anybody. But denying that we've taken a detour into territory where a majority of the drama is caused by relatively unimportant side characters doesn't help anybody either.

Almost everything that's happened since Azure City fell to the goblins can be viewed as "a detour into territory where a majority of the drama is caused by relatively unimportant side characters". The only direct conflict between TOotS and Team Evil since then was DarthV's attack on Xykon.

And that's the nature of the format we have here. When you have 2 or more different groups racing to the same objective, the drama is going to be provided by the things that sidetrack each of those groups on the way.