OOTS #874 - The Discussion Thread

[Clistenes]

Consider this too: Malack could quite possibly have been Chaotic Evil (and a lot more evil at that) when he was alive. Sure, he's part of the evil empire now, but for all we know back then he was a slaver and sacrificed innocent children to his gods. Imagine if Durkon resurrected him only to be met with a personality somewhere between Belkar, Thog, and Xykon.

Well, lizardfolk are usually neutral, but they are quite stupid (-2 to int) and see other humanoids as food so yes, pre-vampiric Malack could be sort of a cannibalistic version of Thog.

[Raineh Daze]

Well, lizardfolk are usually neutral, but they are quite stupid (-2 to int) and see other humanoids as food so yes, pre-vampiric Malack could be sort of a cannibalistic version of Thog.

Cannibalism is eating your own species.

[SaintRidley]

Cannibalism is eating your own species.

Definitions of things like cannibalism and racism tend to undergo scrutiny when consideration that humans are not the only sapient species is taken.

[ManuelSacha]

Yes, Durkon is running out of spells, but so is Malack.
Of course, this might be a similar situation to the black dragon vs V one, which teached us that whitout spells... Durkon is just an ale-sipping monkey. While Malack? He is still a vampire.

Speaking of V, I hope s/he's around and comes in blastin' fire on the Lizgreaper's tail as soon as s/he hears commotion with his/her delicate elf ears.
Durkon has already said that he doesn't want to call the others, so unless V or Roy decide to jump in and help him on their own intent... the future where Durkon goes back to his dwarven lands posthumously and brings havok to them (as a vampire), looks closer every minute.

I hope this turns out like the Roy/Thog fight - Durkon winning in a way that is completely unexpected :)

Yup. Brilliant and unexpected doesn't sit well with us.
Boring and clichéd is more our thing.

PS: some people are still questioning Malack's alignment, and trying to convince us he's not Evil? How quaint!

[bguy]

Belkar, showing once more that he is more a liability than an asset.

Durkon's best move at this point might actually be to kill Belkar. Durkon could then withdraw safely to rejoin the rest of the party, there would be no danger of Belkar being turned into a vampire, and the Order could always resurrect Belkar later on (which Durkon would probably insist on under these circumstances). I doubt Belkar would even be upset (at least until he realized he lost a level.) He would probably be impressed that Durkon could be so ruthlessly pragmatic.

[Clistenes]

Cannibalism is eating your own species.

Definitions of things like cannibalism and racism tend to undergo scrutiny when consideration that humans are not the only sapient species is taken.

Well, he would be...humanoid-phagic?

[Feddlefew]

Definitions of things like cannibalism and racism tend to undergo scrutiny when consideration that humans are not the only sapient species is taken.

It's still only cannibalism if you eat your own species. Most of the races in D&D are similar enough that I would consider it cannibalism, but lizardmen and Kolbolds aren't mammals, so I wouldn't consider it cannibalism if they ate humans and related species, ethics aside. However, even as a funeral right cannibalism still generally taboo because it spreads diseases.

The act of eating sentient beings that isn't covered under the definition of cannibalism deserves its own word, frankly. Cannibalism is a more specific subset of that.

Edit: Obsessively fixed for wording.

[Snails]

Assuming Durkon can retreat to his friends...

Malack probably has <100 hit points. That is dangerously low when up against multiple foes at this level.

We know Haley carries a few silver arrows. Silver arrows employed in a magic bow will do the job.

Roy's sword has a mysterious green effect that damages undead. Regardless he can blow through a measly 10 DR with Power Attack, if necessary.

Belkar would have the most trouble. But he still gets his Favor Enemy (Humanoid Reptilian) bonus. With strength and magic bonuses, he will easily do more than 10 per hit, even if not much more.

Elan can cast Mass Cure Light to heal his friends and hurt Malack at the same time. That is a sweet 1d8+13 damage.

It adds up quickly, even without V around.

[Raineh Daze]

Assuming Durkon can retreat to his friends...

Malack probably has <100 hit points. That is dangerously low when up against multiple foes at this level.

We know Haley carries a few silver arrows. Silver arrows employed in a magic bow will do the job.

Roy's sword has a mysterious green effect that damages undead. Regardless he can blow through a measly 10 DR with Power Attack, if necessary.

Belkar would have the most trouble. But he still gets his Favor Enemy (Humanoid Reptilian) bonus. With strength and magic bonuses, he will easily do more than 10 per hit, even if not much more.

Elan can cast Mass Cure Light to heal his friends and hurt Malack at the same time. That is a sweet 1d8+13 damage.

It adds up quickly, even without V around.

However, there is one obstacle: Dominate.

[Kish]

Assuming Durkon can retreat to his friends...

Malack probably has <100 hit points.

Malack definitely has (Malack's level X 10) hit points plus whatever Durkon's Heal left him with, having just cast Harm to heal himself.

It does occur to me that Will is Vaarsuvius' best (read: sole non-catastrophic) save.

[baerdith]

Durkon still has a bunch of wounds, did he CCW on Belkar or himself??

[Snails]

However, there is one obstacle: Dominate.

The answer to Dominate is a 1st level spell. If Durkon does not have it, he is most definitely in trouble. Eventually Malack will succeed in Dominating Durkon himself.

For what it is worth (not much), seasoned dungeocrawlers put Extended Magic Circle Versus Evil on a couple party members for exactly these kinds of situations. At this level of play, such would last almost 5 hours, so it is a no brainer to do before combat.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

/facepalm

Durokon, PLEASE tell me you didn't forget a simple Protection from Evil spell, did you? You know, the one that suppresses mind controlling effects plus gives additional bonuses against evil creatures?

[Shale]

The assumption is that Malack's max HP is sub-100. As a vampire with no Con bonus and a level below Durkon's, that is not unlikely.

Edit: CCW removed the stab wounds Belkar dealt him. That left the damage from Flame Strike, which was remedied with CMW.

[Kish]

Ah, not a possibility I'd considered, my mistake.

[Snails]

Correction: Malack definitely has (Malack's level X 10) hit points plus whatever Durkon's Heal left him with, having just cast Harm to heal himself.

Undead get d12s with no Con mod. That is a significant weakness at higher level play, even if it does have its advantages.

So, Malack is ballpark 13d12 = ~85 hit points. That is frightfully low in the context of the kind of violence even unoptimized PCs can dish out.

[Gift Jeraff]

Hey, since Haley calls Durkon "D," does that mean we can now call him Vampire Hunter D?

[Shale]

Boooooooooooo!

[white lancer]

I really like that both Durkon and Malack have their moments of badassery in this fight. Both characters are great in my book, and whatever the outcome, I'm glad neither is going down without a fight. Also, I think my favorite part of this strip is when Durkon offers to resurrect Malack--that's a very Durkon thing to do and is one of the reasons he's a hero in this comic.

I can see arguments both for foreshadowing of Durkon's death (the last panel with Thor as well as the prophecy) and of an intervention by V (by virtue of being part of the half of the party with a good Will save). I don't know what I'm hoping for, but I would still like Malack to get out of this alive because there's a lot we could learn about him and the rest of his party.

[Stormlock]

DR and frighteningly high AC mitigate that low hp a lot when it comes to melee. Between lizardfolk and vampire, he's got ELEVEN natural armor while completely naked, toss a ring of protection +5 and bracers +8 on that (and he could have better, an epic ECL char should have epic wealth and items, and as a cleric he could cast while wearing proper armor under that robe, +5 mithril chainmail would be a lot better than bracers) and you're looking at AC on par with Xykon. (Oh, throw in dodge bonuses too, +4 dex for vampire and free Dodge feat so another 3 AC there)) Maybe even better (Almost certainly better). Roy might land a hit or two, but his later attacks with lower BAB are going to whiff, same with Belkar and Halley. Especially Belkar, who likely lacks a +5 weapon, let alone two.

In fact, his AC is so high that even if Durkon had Disrupting Weapon memorized (which would be handy for Xykon's minions, if not Xykon himself) it'd likely only be useful on an ally's weapon, since he's probably way outclassed.

...

Wait, that's it. Durkon is going to cast Disrupting Weapon on Mr. Scruffy's claws, who is going to roll a natural twenty and destroy Malack utterly. It'll be so dramatic (and hilarious!)

[Dr. Gamera]

Magic circle against evil, holy aura, or protection from evil.

Any of those will prevent ongoing control such as a vampire's domination attack.

Not that I dispute the usefulness of these spells, but to me, that sequence was less about game mechanics and more about Durkon's character. His essence. His integrity. This is the dwarf who, in On the Origin of PCs, said:

Spoiler

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It don't matter none tha they be rotten warts on tha arse o' tha world, I still have a duty not ta get 'em killed. Tha's what being a dwarf is all aboot.

[Gnoman]

The act of eating sentient beings that isn't covered under the definition of cannibalism deserves its own word, frankly. Cannibalism is a more specific subset of that.

Perhaps intellivore? Admittedly, the term was coined to describe a species that eats "thoughts", but it could be adequate.

[ReaderAt2046]

Definitions of things like cannibalism and racism tend to undergo scrutiny when consideration that humans are not the only sapient species is taken.

Yeah, I think the rule of thumb in worlds like this is that cannibalism is eating another sapient being. (

[teratorn]

The 200 year thing tells us that Malack's kids were indeed vampires.

[Dr. Gamera]

I like Durkon and don't want him to die. I agree with the analysis that the story has foreshadowed the possibility of his death here. I understand that to make a good story, sometimes beloved characters have to die. So if this is the end of Durkon, or the beginning of undead Durkon, it won't have been unexpected, and it might be necessary, but I'll still be sad.

[Caex]

Yeah, I think the rule of thumb in worlds like this is that cannibalism is eating another sapient being. (

The issue with that is that it is cannibalism when unintelligent (for our purposes, Int< 3) creatures eat other members of their own species. It doesn't carry the moral weight, of course, as they aren't really capable of moral action, but the term is properly a technical one, not a moral one.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I was re-reading Don't Split the Party and noticed that The Giant stated that we'd be meeting another of the factions involved in trying to control the gates (presumably, the people who cast the scrying spell at the fake gate site).

Wouldn't this make a heck of a time to add that complication?

[Rakoa]

Alright, new outcome prediction. I maintain my former idea that Durkon will lure Malack close to the outdoors, dispel his sunlight protection, and Spartan kick him outside.

My new hope is that, as Brom mentioned, Malack will have a magical item to keep him safe from sunlight, either as a backup or because he lied about the spell in the first place. He will use Gaseous Form, and scream as if the sun is burning him into mist or some such thing. Then he will either escape to fight another day...or try a counterattack on Durkon.

My hope, anyway.

[Kish]

The person who cast the scrying spell at the fake gate site was named Zz'dtri. We've met him.

(Yes, this is confirmed by Word of the Giant.)

[St Fan]

next up: the prequel story of Malcor the Barbarian.

Tsk, tsk, tsk... shame on you. You should know that vampires can only use a pseudonym that's an anagram of their original name.