El Goonish Shive

[Vinyadan]

This is my favourite strip for the last 4/5 years: well drawn, not text heavy, funny, in character and with a likable Grace!

[Pink]

Elliot is transformed for the same reason he's usually transformed. Magic practice/burn off. My guess anyway.

Bit of a clumsy transition, but shive recognizes it. And when you update you comic every weekday, I can understand him going "good enough" and moving in, which does seem something of the case here judging from his comments.

[Lamech]

He's discussing the events of the day. As to why Elliot is transformed? Why not! Plus doesn't he need to burn of energy? Plus it would level his magic.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Why would they be having that conversation? What did I miss?

A plausible scenario: Elliot is hanging out at Ted's, and has been stewing what happened, so has asked Grace if she could imagine him kissing a boy.

Grace being Tedsexual, immediately jumped to a Grace-approved sexual fantasy, but I'm reasonably certain that was not the answer Elliot was looking for. Like most* heterosexual males, he might be fine with male homosexuality in theory and in others, but might be a tad creeped out (or alternatively, stranged at his lack of creep-out reaction) when applied to himself.

Elliot is transformed for the same reason he's usually transformed. Magic practice/burn off. My guess anyway.

It's a good guess. Particularly since he is at a safe location, and thus prime moment to burn off as much of the energy as he can.

Grey Wolf

*I cannot back this assumption of majority with any actual real numbers; if bothered by my (hedged) broad claim, instead read "most literature-based heterosexual males" since this is also a classic set-up for some character growth.

[Mewtarthio]

Grace being Tedsexual, immediately jumped to a Grace-approved sexual fantasy, but I'm reasonably certain that was not the answer Elliot was looking for. Like most* heterosexual males, he might be fine with male homosexuality in theory and in others, but might be a tad creeped out (or alternatively, stranged at his lack of creep-out reaction) when applied to himself.

I think the unnerving part was when the shapeshifter fantasized about using his form for sexytimes.

Don't worry, Elliot! Tedd and Grace are responsible young adults who would never abuse their powers!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think the unnerving part was when the shapeshifter fantasized about using his form for sexytimes.

Oh, I'm sure that is what Elliot was feeling by the end of Grace's answer. I was just positing a plausible scenario of why Elliot would even ask the question.

GW

[Weimann]

Ey, Grace. Don' be judgin'. It's not up to you to get involved in other people's relationships. That's between Cat and her girl.

[Felius]

Diane wants it to be. She has shown herself not completely horrible.

But most of that was pure silliness.

Security concerns aside, it could probably be good for both of them. Not necessarily a long term relationship or true love, but Elliot dating someone he is in fact attracted to and don't really know, moving him aside from his comfort zone, and Diane to actually date a nice guy who she doesn't consider disposable and abuse, if only because Susan, Ellen, Nanase, Justin, Tedd, Grace and Sarah would team up on her if she hurts Elliot.

Essentially Elliot could use a less serious relationship to get out of his mindset of "I'm a jerk for being attracted to women", and Diane could use a more serious relationship than most she seemed to have.

[Weimann]

I'm happy Catilina got that cleared up nice and easy. Not only for her, but because of us already having a bunch of plot-threads going and adding more risks cluttering the field too much.

[Lamech]

Dan has weaved the plot threads into a plot shirt. Unfortunately there was a lot of left over thread. In fact, it seems as if there is more thread than before...

[Lamech]

I think this whole arc is because Dan learned how to draw facial expressions in a whole new way and wants to show off.

[Weimann]

Facetech has improved, for sure.

I can feel pages like this can get a little bit preachy. The comic supports same-sex relationships much, much better by having Ellen and Nanase in it than by Elliot ranting on a couch. Shive has a tendency to not trust in the showing, and feels he must do the telling as well. I find that this sometimes gets clumsy and forced, and this is one of those times.

[Cavelcade]

This is definitely one of the times the comic is just annoying. To be honest having a bunch of characters sitting around saying "I just don't understand the other side's point of view at all!" is completely useless and a waste of time.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Facetech has improved, for sure.

I can feel pages like this can get a little bit preachy. The comic supports same-sex relationships much, much better by having Ellen and Nanase in it than by Elliot ranting on a couch. Shive has a tendency to not trust in the showing, and feels he must do the telling as well. I find that this sometimes gets clumsy and forced, and this is one of those times.

I'd say the point of the page was not to establish pro-gay positions, but to show that Elliot's rage is a little out of control - that just because he is on the correct side, that doesn't make his anger and counter-bullying bullying right.

Grey Wolf

[Shogo]

Honestly . . . His rage face just inspires a feeling of, "I kind of want to punch that guy in the face."

I even agree with the message that hating gay people is stupid. It's still a punchable face Elliot keeps making.

[Vinyadan]

I can feel pages like this can get a little bit preachy.

I feel it very preachy, mainly because a other webcomics I read are going through very similar situations (EGS, QC, GunC). Sometimes it's like reading the same page three times in a row.

[John Cribati]

Well, Elliott is definitely being preachy here, but you can't really say the same thing about the story itself. I mean, even though the view of the character is obviously the view I the author in this specific case, there was definitely more focus on how mad he was getting than on the topic he was getting mad about. That should count for something, at least.

[Weimann]

I'd say the point of the page was not to establish pro-gay positions, but to show that Elliot's rage is a little out of control - that just because he is on the correct side, that doesn't make his anger and counter-bullying bullying right.

That's a point, I suppose. I feel it doesn't go as far as saying all that, I think, but it does bring Elliot's streak of righteous vengeance to the foreground.

I feel it very preachy, mainly because a other webcomics I read are going through very similar situations (EGS, QC, GunC). Sometimes it's like reading the same page three times in a row.

From what I understand, same-sex marriages were just made legal in the US. The topic might be fresh on many people's minds, and it might be important to display allegiances.

Well, Elliott is definitely being preachy here, but you can't really say the same thing about the story itself. I mean, even though the view of the character is obviously the view I the author in this specific case, there was definitely more focus on how mad he was getting than on the topic he was getting mad about. That should count for something, at least.

Certainly, the story arch is one of the more interesting ones so far. My complains were more about the way Shive's story-telling tends to involve a whole lot of, well, telling (I mean, this comic has a character that's a self-proclaimed "endless barrel of exposition"). One example of that is here, I feel.

I'll admit that Elliot's rage is getting shown here, so there's a plus. Still, the comic's rantiness and author tract tendencies are made evident.

[Gez]

That's a point, I suppose. I feel it doesn't go as far as saying all that, I think

"Grace! Use Hug!" was not just a Pokémon joke. Especially when followed on the next page by:
"Easy, Elliot. No smash."
"Oh. I, uh... sorta lost my cool there, didn't I?"

I would have thought spelling it more forcefully would have been laying it on thick.

[Weimann]

Ah, there was another update? Didn't he take America Weekend off?

Upon checking the new page, I'll agree that the scene absolutely went much more in that direction. So that's good!

[Cavelcade]

I feel it very preachy, mainly because a other webcomics I read are going through very similar situations (EGS, QC, GunC). Sometimes it's like reading the same page three times in a row.

With this I must agree - Gunnerkrigg just had a better way of dealing with the same situation. It was much more nuanced and just...human in some way, than this one. On the other hand, as others have said, it's clear that he was going for a different emotional response to what Tom was - which is fine, I guess, I just still found it annoying rather than something that made me want to feel invested.

"You think gay bashing is bad: wow, what a strong, moral person you are." (in a sarcastic tone, to be clear) was my reaction, rather than: "Wow, he's getting so angry! How relatable!", which is a shame, because I love a good rage.

[ryuplaneswalker]

With this I must agree - Gunnerkrigg just had a better way of dealing with the same situation. It was much more nuanced and just...human in some way, than this one. On the other hand, as others have said, it's clear that he was going for a different emotional response to what Tom was - which is fine, I guess, I just still found it annoying rather than something that made me want to feel invested.

"You think gay bashing is bad: wow, what a strong, moral person you are." (in a sarcastic tone, to be clear) was my reaction, rather than: "Wow, he's getting so angry! How relatable!", which is a shame, because I love a good rage.

Ha I did not even have that my reaction through this whole side plot was "Oh we are doing this, hmm should I wait till it completes then read it the entire way through and take a shot every time the moral of the story is beat over our heads"

[Yuki Akuma]

Tony. Calling it now.

I'm probably very wrong.

[Vinyadan]

From what I understand, same-sex marriages were just made legal in the US. The topic might be fresh on many people's minds, and it might be important to display allegiances.

I really hope this isn't the reason why, because:
1. Displaying allegiance to the side which already won isn't very brave.
2. I don't like not-really-veiled propaganda.

Anyway, given how all of these comics have been developing for a lot of time, I doubt this is the real reason.

With this I must agree - Gunnerkrigg just had a better way of dealing with the same situation. It was much more nuanced and just...human in some way, than this one. On the other hand, as others have said, it's clear that he was going for a different emotional response to what Tom was - which is fine, I guess, I just still found it annoying rather than something that made me want to feel invested.

I strongly agree with this. I don't like how many handle homosexuality and more-or-less related issues as a merely social thing, while they actually are something personal; by which I mean that they firstly are a determining fact in the life of a real, flesh-and-blood person, whose feelings and existential reality are formed through them; secondly will these issues come into play in a social environment, but their home is the single person, in his full humanity.
This is also why I don't like the overplayed "gay thing" in webcomics. I mean, lgbt-and-so-on are a minority. If you wish to give them more screenplay that they would have in reality (which is totally legitimate), then you should give a reason for this, and grand them some kind of believable introspection. Instead, it ends up with a lot of comics picking a hip minority and portraying it without even trying to understand how the personal life of a homosexual looks. The whole thing is too easily reduced to "lesbians are neato" and a jump on the bandwagon.
This looks even worse to me because of the substantial lack of handicapped or ill people in webcomics. I would love to see Marten pushing a wheelchair, or, even better, learning how to use staples. I would like to see prosthetics handled more seriously than "zomg look mah bionic hand grabbed ur boobz lol". I would have loved it, if the whole boar arc in EGS (which I found unbelievable and useless) had been substituted by an arc about a guy with leucemia in Moperville South, or at least the reactions of the characters in learning something like this. The concept I feel behind this exclusion - "we can't put people with disabilities in our comics, because we need our public to relate to our characters, and they cannot relate to them as we can with gay people, who fight against an unjust society" - makes me think society really is unjust, and also makes me hope that it is I who am a cynic analyst and that the reason is another one.

As a post-note: I have flu, so I may be writing meaningless things, or have forgotten relevant scenes with disabled people. Also, allow me to introduce you to Ordog Tunaep, the guy who sometimes sits in a wheelchair.

[Weimann]

Anyway, given how all of these comics have been developing for a lot of time, I doubt this is the real reason.

I didn't really think of it as a conscious choice of "hey, this is topical in the US right now, let's make comics about it", but more that it's been prevalent in media a lot, and it turns out that exposure to something tends to give you ideas about that something. It's a pretty natural thing, particularly since these people have surely held these opinions since before and now seems to be a good time to talk about them.

On a bit more of a tangent:

I really hope this isn't the reason why, because:
1. Displaying allegiance to the side which already won isn't very brave.

Issue one: the "side" of non-normative sexuality has not "won". Same-sex relationships are now not forbidden in (Edit: parts of) the US, which is a good thing, sure. In no way does that make discussion of the subject less important; turns out there may be a few other problems for them other than the legal right to get married.

Issue two: I'm not really sure where bravery comes into this?

2. I don't like not-really-veiled propaganda.

Propaganda is a very value-loaded term and should be used with caution. It implies, among other things, an intention to create specific opinions through lies or heavy bias. I'm don't think I'd call the discussed page propaganda on those grounds.

I strongly agree with this. I don't like how many handle homosexuality and more-or-less related issues as a merely social thing, while they actually are something personal; by which I mean that they firstly are a determining fact in the life of a real, flesh-and-blood person, whose feelings and existential reality are formed through them; secondly will these issues come into play in a social environment, but their home is the single person, in his full humanity.
This is also why I don't like the overplayed "gay thing" in webcomics. I mean, lgbt-and-so-on are a minority. If you wish to give them more screenplay that they would have in reality (which is totally legitimate), then you should give a reason for this, and grand them some kind of believable introspection. Instead, it ends up with a lot of comics picking a hip minority and portraying it without even trying to understand how the personal life of a homosexual looks. The whole thing is too easily reduced to "lesbians are neato" and a jump on the bandwagon.
This looks even worse to me because of the substantial lack of handicapped or ill people in webcomics. I would love to see Marten pushing a wheelchair, or, even better, learning how to use staples. I would like to see prosthetics handled more seriously than "zomg look mah bionic hand grabbed ur boobz lol". I would have loved it, if the whole boar arc in EGS (which I found unbelievable and useless) had been substituted by an arc about a guy with leucemia in Moperville South, or at least the reactions of the characters in learning something like this. The concept I feel behind this exclusion - "we can't put people with disabilities in our comics, because we need our public to relate to our characters, and they cannot relate to them as we can with gay people, who fight against an unjust society" - makes me think society really is unjust, and also makes me hope that it is I who am a cynic analyst and that the reason is another one.

As a post-note: I have flu, so I may be writing meaningless things, or have forgotten relevant scenes with disabled people. Also, allow me to introduce you to Ordog Tunaep, the guy who sometimes sits in a wheelchair.

All the +1s. Preach it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I really hope this isn't the reason why, because:
1. Displaying allegiance to the side which already won isn't very brave.

Less than half the states of the US have legalised gay marriage (covering about 40% of the total population). "Already won" is a huge overstatement. I'd say more (and I did, but just deleted it), but, you know, rules about not talking about politics and stuff.

Grey Wolf

[Lord Raziere]

I strongly agree with this. I don't like how many handle homosexuality and more-or-less related issues as a merely social thing, while they actually are something personal; by which I mean that they firstly are a determining fact in the life of a real, flesh-and-blood person, whose feelings and existential reality are formed through them; secondly will these issues come into play in a social environment, but their home is the single person, in his full humanity.
This is also why I don't like the overplayed "gay thing" in webcomics. I mean, lgbt-and-so-on are a minority. If you wish to give them more screenplay that they would have in reality (which is totally legitimate), then you should give a reason for this, and grand them some kind of believable introspection. Instead, it ends up with a lot of comics picking a hip minority and portraying it without even trying to understand how the personal life of a homosexual looks. The whole thing is too easily reduced to "lesbians are neato" and a jump on the bandwagon.
This looks even worse to me because of the substantial lack of handicapped or ill people in webcomics. I would love to see Marten pushing a wheelchair, or, even better, learning how to use staples. I would like to see prosthetics handled more seriously than "zomg look mah bionic hand grabbed ur boobz lol". I would have loved it, if the whole boar arc in EGS (which I found unbelievable and useless) had been substituted by an arc about a guy with leucemia in Moperville South, or at least the reactions of the characters in learning something like this. The concept I feel behind this exclusion - "we can't put people with disabilities in our comics, because we need our public to relate to our characters, and they cannot relate to them as we can with gay people, who fight against an unjust society" - makes me think society really is unjust, and also makes me hope that it is I who am a cynic analyst and that the reason is another one.

As a post-note: I have flu, so I may be writing meaningless things, or have forgotten relevant scenes with disabled people. Also, allow me to introduce you to Ordog Tunaep, the guy who sometimes sits in a wheelchair.

Oh,

Boo.

Freaking.

Hoo.

what, your going to bite the hand that gives you support just because it doesn't live up to your high standards? get real. you can't ensure everyone will understand EXACTLY what someone is going through or whatever. for a cause, support is support, its food, you either eat it and live or you die. choose. and you can't afford to be picky.

and you just randomly brought up disabled people for no reason, completely off-topic. tell me, what do you think it will accomplish? how would you portray the disabled person that won't come off as "just another sick person"? how would you convince other people that there is something they can do to help disabled/sick people that can't be done by a doctor? what would your end goal be for this kind of portrayal and/or persuasion? furthermore, what if people really don't know how they can possibly help them? what if the author has no idea how they can help? what if your assuming that there is maliciousness or a lack of caring when the only thing there, might be ignorance?

its easy to preach when you assume everyone is on the same page. what if you need to teach instead?

[ryuplaneswalker]

how would you portray the disabled person that won't come off as "just another sick person"?

the same way you portray...a homosexual person as not "just another homosexual" or a black person as "just not another black person" by having them serve real interest to the plot and be an actual character not just a one dimensional blob.

The problem with this storyline is that it is soapbox preaching to people (if they are this far into the comic) who are already likely on the side of the author's tract anyways therefore it is just pointless, which is a good description of this entire side arc, pointless so far unless Ellen's rage about people on the internet somehow leads to character growth. Which it won't.

[Lizard Lord]

Why do you think it won't? I don't believe EGS is bad at building character development or anything like that, so I am not sure why you don't think Elliot won't get any here.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Why do you think it won't? I don't believe EGS is bad at building character development or anything like that, so I am not sure why you don't think Elliot won't get any here.

Oh is that Elliot? I thought it was Ellen. Ye Gods I hate these transformation spells, they should get eaten by a duck.

as for why I don't think this is going anywhere, is that the current set up is.

"Elliot gets really angry about Homophobia" there is no real..lesson for him to learn, cause Homophobia does suck, so...where is the conflict? He meets a Homophobe and they say "hey that guy sucks, cause he is like Homophobic'? or he meets someone who is totally awesome who turns out to be homophobic and the Aesop is "even cool people can be jerks sometimes"

I just don't see where this goes, that won't be something I haven't seen enough times to make me completely fed up with the plot line, which sucks cause I generally like EGS and like the characters.