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2013-04-09, 04:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
I wouldn't be hard on yourself. Once or twice I probably have mused on the lack of LGBT characters despite an overall respectful attitude toward it, but the world always struck me as pretty diverse in regards to gender and ethnicity. More than any other popular high fantasy world I can think of, anyway.
Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
Avatar by Kymme
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2013-04-09, 04:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Well, yes. That the word of an OOTSer vs. the opinion of another OOTSer. Those are both considered 'in-group' members by the audience, and therefore permitted to voice disagreement. By contrast, you had some people- not many, but some- seriously defending Belkar's casual murder of a gnomish merchant when Celia spoke up against it.
There's little or no evidence that Celia's pacifism was a serious impediment to the group, given that she was clever enough to find ways of circumventing danger nonviolently (for which I am willing to give her major props), and there was still a significant chunk of the audience that couldn't stand it. Given that Miko was always noticeably- not a lot, but noticeably- further down the sliding scale of cynicism vs. idealism, and that she actively interfered with the Order's 'other plans', the audience reactions were proportionately more violent.
But honestly, during all those arguments, the only way I remember that gender was invoked were speculations that Miko wasn't getting enough action (which comes straight out of Roy's mouth.)
I would just mention that I dimly recall some kind of popularity poll on Miko back in the day, and respondants were more-or-less split down the middle on loving or hating her. Contentious? Yeah. But not exactly despised.
.Last edited by Carry2; 2013-04-09 at 04:09 PM.
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2013-04-09, 04:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
The comic doesn't endorse Roy's sexism either, with the heavens frowning on such comments and even what was practically an admission from Roy that he is somewhat sexist.
I like Celia, personally. I didn't like Miko, but I liked her as a character and I liked what she added to the story. Someone I loved to hate, you know? More Angel Eyes style of hate than Wesley Crusher.Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
Avatar by Kymme
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2013-04-09, 04:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
You are confusing conscious sexism with unconscious sexism. Just because someone holds sexist thoughts doesn't mean they are aware of them.
Like I said before, it's entirely possible that Celia and Miko were not seen as legitimate antagonistic forces (and therefore respected as such), but instead seen as unnecessary nuisances. A lot of people like and respect Xykon, Redcloak, Thog, Tarquin and even Nale, despite them being heavy inconveniences to the Order, yet Miko and Celia aren't viewed as legitimate forces of conflict. Haley, Belkar and Celia clashed phenomenally most of the time (and got along, at some points), just like Xykon and Roy clashed every single panel they were together, or Elan and Nale, or Thog and Roy/Elan, but those people didn't see the rich character development in that. They didn't appreciate the personal struggles that Haley had to overcome while travelling with Belkar and Celia, and didn't appreciate Celia's role in fleshing out Haley by challenging her so often.
And I repeat: because Celia was not seen as a proper antagonistic force. And if you do not recognise her narrative value and the reasons those conflicts happen, then you're obviously going to resent the needless conflict (because you do not see it as necessary).
Good people can be antagonistic forces. Both Miko and Celia were good-aligned antagonistic forces (until Miko fell, at any rate), and that doesn't make them any less valid as forms of conflict that flesh out the protagonists.Last edited by Shadowknight12; 2013-04-09 at 04:17 PM.
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2013-04-09, 04:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
I disagree with half of that, personally. Miko was absolutely a legitimate antagonist and as valid as an opposition to the Order as anyone. Celia, however, I view as an asset. I think the good she did in the story far outweighs any bad and without her the whole Order may have failed. Celia clashes with Haley, but most the time she tells Haley what she needs to hear.
Yeah, the golem sub plot was her screwing up. But just because an ally screws up, I don't view them as antagonists.Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
Avatar by Kymme
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2013-04-09, 04:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Antagonists are not bad for a story. They need not be evil. They are, in fact, invaluable and should be cherished just as much as the protagonists.
The protagonist is the character we're guided to identify with. The antagonist is the force or character who opposes them, or who generates conflict between they and the protagonist, or between the protagonist and others. The antagonist is a force of challenge and conflict, and this is a very good thing. The heart and soul of every story is conflict, and without antagonists, there is no conflict.
Antagonists don't even need to be characters, in fact. In disaster stories, the world is the antagonist. And in good stories, the distinction between protagonist and antagonist blurs very often (see: the whole debacle with V vs. Elan and Durkon, for example, or Belkar vs. everyone else in the Order).
An antagonist doesn't need to antagonise out of sadism, evil or hatred. A soldier or police officer is just doing their duty, a parent who repeatedly sabotages their child who wishes to go off on adventures is doing that out of love, a jealous lover who causes strife and grief might do so out of low self-esteem or because the protagonist has a shifty personality that engenders suspicion in everyone.
Antagonists (or antagonistic forces) are the lifeblood of the story. Without them, there is no conflict, and without conflict, the story is dead.
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2013-04-09, 04:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2013
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
The difference between Miko, Celia and Thog, Xykon, Nale is, that the former two should actually be on the side of the Order.
If Xykon puts the Order in a difficult situation, he's doing his job well. If the same happens, because Celia for example dislikes killing or doesn't listen to the far more experienced Haley, then she's behaving like an annoyance. She should know better.
The night she took Roys body to that golem mage, she behaved very moronic. People were annoyed with her because of that. I don't see any sexism in disliking her for such behaviour. Any male behaving that way would be called an idiot as well from parts of the community.
A shame you don't want to talk about biology anymore in this thread. I don't feel that you sufficiently answered the discrepancies between men and women when it comes to sport results.
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2013-04-09, 04:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
I have two counters to those presumptions: Belkar and Elan. Also on the side of the Order, also antagonistic forces (Elan being very closely similar to Celia's flavour of antagonism).
I am more than willing to discuss biology until the metaphorical cows arrive on the 9:35 express to tearfully reunite with their long-lost relatives.
Just not in this thread. As I have repeatedly mentioned, PMs are the way to go.
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2013-04-09, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2004
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
The Cliff Notes version of the scene is as follows:
SpoilerWhile Hinjo debriefs Lien about a recent mission to investigate the source of the attacks on the refugee fleet, Elan makes a rather obvious attempt to set them up on a romantic dinner date (bringing chairs, a table, food, a candleabra, etc.). When they ask him what the heck he's doing, he says that, as the last two paladins, it's (narratively) obvious that they have to repopulate the paladin species, and he's just trying to help. After Hinjo explains being a paladin doesn't work that way, Lien interjects, stating that she has a husband (or maybe just a boyfriend, I forget the precise degree of relationship formality) and that even if she didn't, Hinjo's not her type. When both Hinjo and Elan react with some surprise, she contrasts Hinjo's refined, well-groomed appearance with her husband's rugged, muscular good looks. Something in Hinjo's expression left me with the idea that he himself thought Lien's husband sounded pretty hot.Last edited by Grey Watcher; 2013-04-09 at 05:09 PM. Reason: Adding spoiler tags!
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2013-04-09, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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2013-04-09, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2013
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Both of whom are called idiots for their stupid behaviour. And not just in the comic, but also on the forum. Granted, they got better and smarter, but that's character growth for you.
Yeah, PMs aren't suited for a discussion between about 4-5 people. Maybe we can move to another thread, when the rest agrees?
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2013-04-09, 05:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
And yet they were generally liked (or at least tolerated). Particularly Elan, who was just as much of a well-meaning, good-aligned airhead as Celia.
I would ask a moderator if I was you. This has "real life politics" and "morally justified thread" written all over it, and the last thing I want is to draw moderator ire upon my head.
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2013-04-09, 05:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2010
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
But Celia isn't an airhead? She's naive with regards to harsh realities of lower class life (and, y'know, mortals) but she's not stupid. She's an excellent lawyer, in fact, and her antagonism (using your definition of it) was that her rather developed moral code didn't condone murder.
In the meta, this-is-a-representation-of-a-game, reading of OotS, she's the character who doesn't want to kill the Kobolds when the rest of the party just wants to get on with the adventure. Not necessarily a bad thing, but I'd say a lot of people have had annoying experiences with that kind of character, and that's why she gets that bad reaction. They consider her actions to be stupid, but her to be smart, so her 'stupid' actions annoy them, on top of the D&D action.
I actually really, really like Celia, though, and find Miko...interesting, and pitiable.
Also Miko was definitely as much of an antagonist as at least Nale - I'd say moreso. I think you're being unfair here.Avatar from Gunnerkrigg Court.
SpoilerPrevious avatar courtesy of CoffeeIncluded - of Kurt, from theToes in the WaterKnee DeepAgainst the currentStormy Seas campaign.
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2013-04-09, 05:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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- Sweden
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
To the Giant:
I think Miko was a great character. In many ways she was the epitome of all the horrible paladin stories from gaming tables throughout the decades. That's what I think OOTS is all about, humour around D&D both as system, setting and actual play. The fact that it has also developed a great story is just a bonus (well a very good one)!
Yes, Miko was annoying in her lawfulness but that was the point (or so I thought). I think she added a lot to the story, just too bad she couldn't let go of her boxed-in viewpoint and become a member of the party.
Celia. I love Celia. I think she is great, especially due to her pacifism. It helps show just how messed up morality a roleplaying group can have and still be called good. I really liked when she was trying to pose as a necromancer, that made me laugh a lot. I hope that Roy will stick (pun intended) to her and their relationship will be featured in more strips. I even hope she will become a member of the OOTS, instead of... of... err... right. In any case, a great character.
It's good to be aware of what gender and sexuality representation you have in a story - but in my opinion it's not the end of the world that things aren't equal. My roleplaying campaigns often have somewhat unequal representation too (the most interesting characters tend to be female for some reason).
So to sum up, I just wanted to raise a voice for someone who enjoyed Miko's presence in the story and yes, I wish I was Roy so I could date Celia (I'm a sucker for wings).
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2013-04-09, 05:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
I was using Haley's words, not mine (regarding the "airhead" thing). I find Celia to be one of my favourite characters, and I profoundly respect her pacifism. I think what she did with the Thieves' Guild was absolutely magnificent. But I don't voice that sort of opinion around here because I don't want to get lynched.
Miko wasn't someone I personally liked or admired, but from a narrative perspective, her entire shtick of being a big middle finger to Lawful Stupid paladins everywhere was unbelievably awesome.
Also, just because you can appreciate Miko as an antagonist doesn't mean that most other forumers can. I think that 50% to 70% of the ire against her is the aforementioned middle finger to Lawful Stupid paladins, but some degree of the hatred against her was that she was not seen as a Nale, Xykon or Tarquin equivalent, who have greatly inconvenienced the Order before (and in far worse way than Miko) and yet she had the audacity to oppose them.
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2013-04-09, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
I am genuinely surprised at this, and slightly saddened.
First Miko is not universally despised; she is a great great character who was majorly wrongheaded in a very serious way. But there was hope for redemption, up until the point where her flaw got her killed (unlike her Evil Opposite Belkar, who started on the road to reform and lived). I didn't join in flaming her because, well what's the point? Every hero needs flaws, and some don't overcome them; isn't that good albeit tragic writing?
Celia is also a fine character. She's not as powerful as most other named characters, and as a pacifist she probably doesn't belong on the quest any more than Inky does, but she achieves her goals within her limits; without her negotiating skills, Haley would *still* be fighting the Thieves Guild and Roy's body would be cleaning Grubwiggler's chalkboards (and the fact that Haley later broke the deal only makes things better.) I sincerely regret that Celia and V didn't have more chance for conversation because the intellectual orientation they have in common could have led to some great tea-times.
In general, with respect to OOTS female characters, I don't see a problem with those characters, only with the expectations of fandom. An author must write to please himself, and if The Giant isn't happy with his female characters, well that's the way it goes, but I hope that the prejudices of a vocal segment of fandom doesn't rob us of some perfectly decent writing.
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2013-04-09, 05:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
I'm just going to leave this here:
So as to permanently erase the idea that this thread is in any way about making the Giant feel bad about anything, or telling him what to do, or implying anything negative about the Giant.
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2013-04-09, 05:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2003
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
With regard to Miko, keep in mind that the end of her story (plus time) has significantly softened the opinions around here of her value to the story. At one point it seemed like the main division of opinion seemed to be those who hated her and wanted her out of the story immediately, and those who hated her and wanted the story to make her suffer for a while first.
Of course, many of those readers have stopped reading the comic, and many of those now reading got the benefit of reading her whole arc at once. So opinions on her now have little bearing on the reaction to her then.
Interestingly, both Miko and Celia got labeled as being "The DM's Girlfriend" when they were around. Which I found incredibly insulting even at the time.Rich Burlew
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2013-04-09, 06:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Interestingly, both Miko and Celia got labeled as being "The DM's Girlfriend" when they were around. Which I found incredibly insulting even at the time.Things to avoid:
"Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair."
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2013-04-09, 06:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2004
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Just going to back you up on this. As an active moderator at the time, I can attest that Miko really was quite the lightning rod. New forumites got verbally attacked because their first post was something like "I thought that kung-fu move Miko did was pretty awesome," and some of Miko's detractors couldn't abide her receiving anything that even remotely looked like a compliment. There were literally threads called things like the "The Anti-Miko Thread", "The Pro-Miko Thread" (which was less popular), the "The Anti-Pro MikoThread" (because it wasn't enough to hate the character, people felt so strongly they had to take a stand against people who didn't hate the character), "The Anti-Anti Miko Thread" (same reasons as before, just reversed), and I don't even remember how many permutations before we finally had a Forum Rules revision to shut all the nonsense down and get back to simply "vehement hatred of the character herself".
On the main subject of this thread, I find that, even though I've never attempted to write professionally, even something as simple as writing up a D&D character, I've run into some of the same issues as Burlew has described here (and I'm a gay man at that). I've worried that a arbitrarily changing a character's sexuality felt forced, even though the character literally hadn't seen any play yet. I've worried that it might be too flamboyant, or too subtle.
As comforting as it is to find well-written gay characters that aren't reduced to two-dimensional sketches like the leading lady's campy best friend or the tragic AIDS patient, I've honestly learned not to expect it. I mean, unless the character's involved in a romance plot or a coming out story or something, how do you really sell a character's sexuality in a way that doesn't come off as either dismissively cheap or ridiculously gratuitous? Being gay is a fundamental part of who I am, but it's not like it comes up when I'm, say applying for a job or playing a board game at a convention. I guess because our culture still operates on a straight-and-cisgendered-until-proven-otherwise basis, it's difficult to find a way for a character to be LGBT+ without suddenly having to wrap the entire plot around romance and/or coming out stories.
I guess the point of this rambling post is that, even though I have nowhere near the same experience at doing what you do, even my limited dabbling makes me able to empathize with your dilemma.
I do want to say that, while it might be a bit late for OOTS, given that most of the major character's sexualities have been defined, I think that if you were so inclined, you could write a good LGBT character because you write good characters, period. I mean, as tricky as inclusiveness can be, gay people are still people, and you write good people.
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2013-04-09, 06:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Even that wouldn't have prevented the possibility of them not being an opposite-sexed couple: DnD does, afterall, have mechanics for transgenderism, and there are plenty of same sex couples in the real world who are the both the biological parents of their children. But it does open up more options.
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2013-04-09, 06:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-04-09, 06:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
I actually encountered that mentality on a thread a couple days ago. I was stunned out of my mind when I read it. The concept itself is also incredibly sexist, because it implies that the only reason a female player or character has power or agency is because it has been granted to her by a male authority.
Suddenly the strict moderation makes perfect sense. Yikes, that must have been hell.
I couldn't agree more.
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2013-04-09, 06:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2012
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Well, at the very least you shouldn't call her one to her face.
Personally I like Celia, but only in small quantities. She reminds me of a lot of my old Granola Girl friends; funny kind and cute but also full-to-bursting with moral superiority and vastly overestimating their own intelligence. She's a great foil for Haley, and I liked that arc a lot, but her schtick got old pretty fast.
I'm fairly sure I would have liked her a lot less as a guy though; the doofy non-combatant dude who gets thrown into an adventure feels patronizing and I can't stand it for more than a few minutes. Arthur Dent is the exception that proves the rule.
While obviously female (not all characters are human[oid]) characters catch more flack than male ones, I think saying the hate for a character like Miko or Celia is primarily about sexism might be missing the mark. Most people hate hypocrites, side with the heroes instinctively, and get sick of bossy stick-in-the-mud characters. The same goes for being irritated by moral superiority, especially where it challenges the legitimacy of the heroes attitudes, and get annoyed at ditzy antics.
-Edit-
Just read the bits above my post...
Never mind.
Stupid formumites, not retroactively changing their sexist attitudes to prove me right...Last edited by Water_Bear; 2013-04-09 at 07:02 PM.
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2013-04-09, 07:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Exactly... What's all this BS about taking stuff to PM?
This thread is about gender ratio in a comic that has adventurers as the main characters and that takes place in a generally dangerous/violent universe where most characters are human. Bringing up that there are indeed some basic gender differences (i.e. bringing up human biology), whether people want to hear it or not, is about as squarely on topic as can be.
My apologies for the crude analogy that is about to follow, but if for example a comic takes place exclusively in an environment where adult humans nurture and breastfeed newborn babies, don't you think it wouldn't be so abnormal to notice the gender balance among the adult human protagonists isn't an exact 50:50? And more importantly, in a discussion about gender balance in that comic, wouldn't you expect biology to come up?
Or say another comic takes place at the Summer Olympics with the Track & Field athletes as the protagonists... and that sparks a discussion thread from someone complaining that the percentages of whites and Asians in the group of characters are way lower than they actually are in the human population, and that the racial mix of the protagonists isn't perfectly balanced... then what, the whole thread should be taking place via PM?
Really, I have a very hard time understanding why some forumers would actually want something as central to the topic at hand be swept under the rug (a.k.a. switched to PM). It's just baffling.
Honestly? Nothing should grant immunity from criticism. It's just that some reasons for doing stuff can be better than others.Last edited by lio45; 2013-04-09 at 07:55 PM.
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2013-04-09, 07:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Because it was turning into a long, utterly tangential and irrelevant discussion about why men tend to be, on average, stronger than women.
That is not relevant when talking about a system that contains no advantages or penalties based on sex.
I'm not the only one. :/Things to avoid:
"Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair."
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2013-04-09, 08:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-04-09, 08:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2008
Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
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2013-04-09, 08:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Things to avoid:
"Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair."
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2013-04-09, 08:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2012
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Re: Gender and Sexuality Representation in OOTS
Partly, it comes from the fact that very few of us here actually know the biology well enough to debate it and most of the people who don't know enough also don't know they don't know enough.
There's also the fact that biology surrounding sex has become incredibly politicized and, as I so helpfully demonstrated earlier, discussing it can lead to off-topic political stuff which jeopardizes the thread and our accounts.
But part of it is also just because, as much as I hate to admit it, D&D 3.5 is not half as simulationist as it was intended to be and that game is the foundation for the OotS universe. Humans can successfully interbreed with giant magic lizards and sexless lovecraftian horrors but not dwarves. Even geniuses are unable to identify themselves as a member of their own species without specialist training. And the only physical differences between men and women are on the height/weight table, which doesn't even have the decency to be correlated with Strength.
As to the Mod-Approved Thread idea, I would like to see a response on that though. I like the idea of any discussion where I get to ramble about epigenetics and speculate about neolithic social mores in the same post.