Durkon - How powerfull?

[terenes]

During his fight against Malack it was hinted that Durkon is higher level cleric due to lack of adequate challanges for mid level cleric-vampire.

Now Durkon is vampire himself, so his level would be 14+8 = 22, and he would be stronger than Malack. This can implicate that is also stronger than Tarquin.

Let's check his stats (from clas and level Geekery thread):

Lawful Evil, Dwarf vampire male non-theistic (forum) Cleric 14 (based on spells cast in a day).
Str 20-25 (can carry Vaarsuvius, can't carry Roy; +6 as vampire).
Dex <14 (dex penalty, SSDT; +4 as vampire).
Con n/a (undead).
Int ~12 (no evidence; +2 as vampire).
Wis 19-25 (required for 7th-level spells, and to lose his best 7th-level spell to Enervation; +2 as vampire).
Cha <14 (low modifier; +4 as vampire).

With addition of race abilities (d12 hp dice, energy drain) and spell buffs (some Thor's might equivalent) doesn't it make him strongest revealed melee fighter in ootsverse (MItD capabilties are unknown) and second strongest character after Xykon?

[EmperorSarda]

Now Durkon is vampire himself, so his level would be 14+8 = 22, and he would be stronger than Malack. This can implicate that is also stronger than Tarquin.

With addition of race abilities (d12 hp dice, energy drain) and spell buffs (some Thor's might equivalent) doesn't it make him strongest revealed melee fighter in ootsverse (MItD capabilties are unknown) and second strongest character after Xykon?

Thor's Might is a domain spell, and while Vampire Durkon would still have it prepared because he hasn't renewed spells that we have seen, Vampire Durkon would get the Death and Destruction domains, the 5th level spell that he can choose from would be Slay Living or Mass Inflict Light Wounds.

Also, we don't know how level Malack is, he is at least a 12th level cleric. But beyond that, who knows.

Also knowing Tarquin, he probably has some item of negative energy protection just in case.

[Kish]

Yes, Durkon certainly appeared to be a more powerful cleric, as a pure cleric, than Malack when he was alive, and is now a strictly more powerful character.

Yes, that could very well be read to mean that Vampire Durkon is more powerful than Tarquin.

No, we do not know any established-as-still-around character in the OotS universe more powerful than Vampire Durkon, save Xykon.

[Vinsfeld]

We don't really know how powerful Tarquin is. But I guess Durkon is stronger than he is now. Although Tarquin has a lot of great magic itens, while Durkon not so much.

One thing is for sure, Xykon's energy drain won't work on Durkon anymore. So if it ever comes to a fight, Durkon would have his spells safe.

[King of Nowhere]

No, durkon is not stronger now, for several reasons.

first, and most important, durkon's items are appropriate for a 14th level character. malack's items are appropriate for a 20th level character at least. with the kind of wealth he had ruling an empire, and having adventured 300 years, he probably has more.

second, durkon is not used to be a vampire. Malack has more expertise in using whatever power justify the +8 level adjustment despite all the extra vulnerabilities. Durkon will probably not make the best use of his template and fail. Just because powergamers know how to play a vampire, it don't mean that durkon does.

third, it is possible that durkon will lose some spells for his change of alignment. We don't know how that works (no, don't try to quote rules. this is one of those cases where oots clearly don't use them). We saw durkon casting a spell as a vampire, so he still has his spells. But i doubt thor would give them. Will he have to seek another deity? is his will still resisting becoming evil, so he can still get power from thor? ddo he get to cast the spells he's already prepared, but cannot get new ones? we don't know.

So, if no one levels up, and malack gives durkon a fair share of gold from the empire to refresh his gear, once durkon get enough experience at using his new body, he will be stronger than malack, by a couple of levels.
But right now? If malack released him, and durkon attacked malack, he would have no chance.

EDIT: we don't know if durkon would be stronger than tarquin, because we don't know how strong tarquin is. except that he is very strong. And very resourceful. And smart. And genre-savy. And crazy prepared. So, that's just my personal opinion, but I'd put my money on tarquin

[Rakoa]

Keep in mind, too, the difference between power and ECL. Durkon may have a higher challenge rating than Tarquin would due to his template, but that doesn't make him more powerful by any means.

[EmperorSarda]

third, it is possible that durkon will lose some spells for his change of alignment.

The Giant has said actually that Vampire Durkon would have the death and destruction domains, being a sort of cleric not worshipping any god in particular and getting spells from the negative energy plane or something like that.

[pearl jam]

Keep in mind, the OP had 4 possible evaluations of Durkon's power:

1. More powerful than Malak
2. More powerful than Tarquin
3. Most powerful melee character
4. 2nd strongest character after Xykon

It's not necessary that they all be true, and there is some room for argument about exactly what most powerful means. It is possible, perhaps, that Vampire Durkon is the most powerful "melee" character without meeting the other criteria.

That he is more powerful than Malak seems probable, but his current condition probably limits the chance of his potential superiority being displayed, somewhat like Xykon's control of MiTD, who may not be more powerful over all than Xykon, but is feasibly more powerful in certain areas.

More powerful than Tarquin is more difficult to judge. We don't really have any way to put an upper limit on Tarquin's abilities because it's unclear that we have ever seen him fully invested.

Further, even if he is more powerful than Tarquin that doesn't guarantee he is more powerful than Redcloak, though if we are limiting the discussion to power as a melee character, perhaps it would follow that that would be the case.

[Kish]

The Giant has said actually that Vampire Durkon would have the death and destruction domains, being a sort of cleric not worshipping any god in particular and getting spells from the negative energy plane or something like that.

Actually, not quite. In response to someone complaining that Durkon shouldn't be able to go right on casting spells, he pointed out that by the letter of D&D rules, as a vampire cleric, Durkon automatically has two domains selected from a list comprising: Chaos, Destruction, Evil, and Trickery.

If Rich said which two domains he'd picked, I didn't see it; and Death isn't, however oddly, normally an option for vampire clerics.

[EmperorSarda]

Actually, not quite. In response to someone complaining that Durkon shouldn't be able to go right on casting spells, he pointed out that by the letter of D&D rules, as a vampire cleric, Durkon automatically has two domains selected from a list comprising: Chaos, Destruction, Evil, and Trickery.

If Rich said which two domains he'd picked, I didn't see it; and Death isn't, however oddly, normally an option for vampire clerics.

You're right, thanks for the correction.

[sockmonkey]

I imagine he would be a bit more effective once free of the mind control. He was dense enough to step into a sunbeam, something even a fledgeling vampire should instinctively avoid.

The wisdom bonus for age category applies to vampires yes?

[Steward]

Whoa, I never even thought of the implications of becoming a vampire. If Durkon as a vampire is now able to go toe-to-toe with Redcloak, that could be a parallel of sorts to V using the powers of darkness to fight Xykon and the dragon. Except in this case, Durkon would be a vampire involuntarily (unless the others are able to find a cure, and he refuses it for this reason) whereas V became a soul-spliced creature voluntarily.

[SoC175]

Now Durkon is vampire himself, so his level would be 14+8 = 22, and he would be stronger than Malack. This can implicate that is also stronger than Tarquin.

He might have a higher CR/ECL, however that system often fails to meassure the true power.

As a rule of thump beings with level adjustment are often weaker than their ECL indicates if compared to annother being of the same ECL but without any LA

There are of course exceptions when whatever is responsible for the LA is really worth it (or even worth more), but normally a LA puts you at a disadvantage even if your theoretically the same ECL

[Kish]

As a rule of thump beings with level adjustment are often weaker than their ECL indicates if compared to annother being of the same ECL but without any LA

I think if Vampire Durkon thumped you, it would hurt more than if Tarquin did.

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

[Copperdragon]

As a rule of thump beings with level adjustment are often weaker than their ECL indicates if compared to annother being of the same ECL but without any LA

Especially Vampires get some really nifty abilites you do not get othervise. Also, Durkon is as cleric a decent fighter and his spells... he can only use one per round and he is pretty high level, so he already has "most" of what he can get through spells.
Adding the template is very probably boosting him a lot, especially "in general", which means when he meets people who could not specifically prepare vs. a vampire. With Malack's "Protection from Sunlight" spell (something he has access to due to being a cleric himself) the biggest weakness of being a vampire is gone (and honestly, it makes no real difference if he gets a load of holy water as vampire or a bucket of alchemists fire as normal dwarf).

[Olinser]

I would like to point out one thing that hasn't been confirmed that will DRASTICALLY affect Durkon's current power for the coming fight is whether his spells have been replenished.

Obviously he can still cast spells - as proved with Greater Planar Ally, but the question is whether

If not, from his own mouth that leaves him with Thor's Might, and no other spells above 4th level.

The level adjustment for being a vampire confers no extra attacks. Which means, as a 14th level Cleric, he still only has 2 attacks per round (with only +10/+5 BAB).

Sure his attacks hit harder now with a big strength adjustment, but even if you give him 25 strength that's still only a +7. Even if you give him a +4 hammer, that means he's looking at an absolute max of 19 damage a swing, 38 damage per round.

By contrast, Roy, if we assume he has 25 strength with his belt of giant strength, gets 1.5x from a 2 handed weapon, and gets +11 damage per swing. Then add in the fact that he has 3 attacks per round, a +5 greatsword, and add in Power Attack and all of the fighter bonus damage feats, and Roy is looking at a maximum damage per round of 100+.

And that's not even figuring in the never specified bonus for the Starmetal green flare.

Without a grapple Roy will eat Durkon alive in close combat. Even with a grapple, Roy has a pretty high chance to take him with his Belt - unless he pops Thor's Might, Durkon takes a penalty for being Small and has a much lower BAB.

Basically, if Durkon is still operating on his unrefreshed spells for the day, he's not that dangerous, Roy can take him pretty easily. If he has full spells.... it's going to take a big intervention by Rich to make the fight with the OOTS even.

Give Durkon time to refresh his spells and he'll definitely be one of the most powerful characters in the world. If he's stuck with 4th level and below spells... not nearly as much of a threat.

[TRH]

Even Level 4 cleric spells can still be dangerous - Divine Power comes to mind. Also, dwarves count as medium-sized, so no penalties there. Durkula likely has plenty of fight left, especially considering the opposition is still magic-deprived, even with Elan stepping up some.

[Olinser]

Even Level 4 cleric spells can still be dangerous - Divine Power comes to mind. Also, dwarves count as medium-sized, so no penalties there. Durkula likely has plenty of fight left, especially considering the opposition is still magic-deprived, even with Elan stepping up some.

You're right, I'd forgotten that they did count as Medium. I'd just been used to seeing Durkon drawn the same size as Belkar, and assuming he was Small. The point stands though - Roy still has a significantly higher BAB, which still makes grapple checks tilted in Roy's favor.

Sure he has fight left, and can do some damage, but the OP specifically asked if that makes Durkon, "strongest revealed melee fighter in ootsverse".

And the answer to that is unequivocally NO. The comparison with Roy was to illustrate how far behind a pure melee class Durkon is, even as a vampire, and even with cleric buffs.

His power is that he's an incredibly tough cleric that can grapple solo people to death easily and can last a LONG time in combat with full heal spells. Not that he's suddenly become an unbeatable melee badass.

[hoff]

Maybe they are using that rule where you have to buy your template with your own levels? You know the one that you spend one level for each level of the template level adjustment.

So Durkon would be Cleric 14, Vampire Template 1 now. He might need to spend his first level up to get that Vampire Template 1. So he won't be able to do all the crazy vampire stuff that Malack can.

[Kish]

Maybe they are using that rule where you have to buy your template with your own levels? You know the one that you spend one level for each level of the template level adjustment.

So Durkon would be Cleric 14, Vampire Template 1 now. He might need to spend his first level up to get that Vampire Template 1. So he won't be able to do all the crazy vampire stuff that Malack can.

Is there any reason to believe that's the case?

[Olinser]

Maybe they are using that rule where you have to buy your template with your own levels? You know the one that you spend one level for each level of the template level adjustment.

So Durkon would be Cleric 14, Vampire Template 1 now. He might need to spend his first level up to get that Vampire Template 1. So he won't be able to do all the crazy vampire stuff that Malack can.

Vampire abilities are granted to the creature automatically, they don't get 'vampire levels'. He's a vampire, which means he has all vampire abilities. The only thing that would affect would be Durkon's HD, if he still has 14 levels of d8, and 1 level of d12.

Now that being said, it would not be unreasonable for Rich to say that Durkon can't access some of his vampire abilities as a result of being a brand new vampire. Maybe he can't turn into gaseous form or shapeshift yet because he hasn't figured out how. Maybe he doesn't have DR yet because his body hasn't had enough time to change to that degree.

There also could legitimately be some drawbacks to Malack's use of that staff to hasten the process. Normally vampires don't rise until 1d4 days after death - it is not unreasonable to think that Malack's spell might have cost him some vampire abilities (or they won't manifest until the time Durkon would have risen as a vampire normally).

[OctoberRaven]

Thor's Might is a domain spell, and while Vampire Durkon would still have it prepared because he hasn't renewed spells that we have seen, Vampire Durkon would get the Death and Destruction domains, the 5th level spell that he can choose from would be Slay Living or Mass Inflict Light Wounds.

True, but we have no way of knowing how long it has been since Durkon was vampirized, nor we do know long the remaining Order members were trapped in the illusion.

[Copperdragon]

Maybe they are using that rule where you have to buy your template with your own levels?

Where did you find that "rule"? Afaik it does not exist and if it does, it's not in core.
The blackguard is the only one who can trade in paladin-levels.

Also, the point of a template is to adjust the base creature independent of levels. Why should Durkon's (or anyone's levels go down) because they got bitten by a vampire?
In the case of a cleric you could argue that had to do with "changing where his spells come from" but I think that is pretty slim ice.

A template modifies the base creature - and that is the end of it. Levels do not play any role here. Durkon is still the level 15ish cleric he was before unless the comic explicitly states othervise.

No matter the preparation, I am very strongly in doubt Thor would still grant that power. If Thor's Might is actually just a re-dressed "Rightous Might" then it's not even a domain spell.
Durkon could cast "Rightous Might" as normal cleric spell and just name it whatever seems fit to him. "Vampires' Might", "Negative Energy's Might", "Nergal's Might", "Evil's Might"... whatever. I see no reason he could not cast something like that as normal level 5 spell.

You're right, I'd forgotten that they did count as Medium. I'd just been used to seeing Durkon drawn the same size as Belkar, and assuming he was Small. The point stands though - Roy still has a significantly higher BAB, which still makes grapple checks tilted in Roy's favor.

I actually think you have no valid point. You compare the pure fighting ability of character X vs the pure fighting ability of character Y, neglicting all other abilities (spells etc) that character might have. Which is imo highly artificial and it's no surprise the outcome of that excercise confirms whatever premise you started with.
Doing that, everyone is going to lose vs. a pure fighter of the same or higher level. While that comparison is possible, I stronly doubt it's relevant.

[Olinser]

Where did you find that "rule"? Afaik it does not exist and if it does, it's not in core.
The blackguard is the only one who can trade in paladin-levels.

Also, the point of a template is to adjust the base creature independent of levels. Why should Durkon's (or anyone's levels go down) because they got bitten by a vampire?
In the case of a cleric you could argue that had to do with "changing where his spells come from" but I think that is pretty slim ice.

A template modifies the base creature - and that is the end of it. Levels do not play any role here. Durkon is still the level 15ish cleric he was before unless the comic explicitly states othervise.

No matter the preparation, I am very strongly in doubt Thor would still grant that power. If Thor's Might is actually just a re-dressed "Rightous Might" then it's not even a domain spell.
Durkon could cast "Rightous Might" as normal cleric spell and just name it whatever seems fit to him. "Vampires' Might", "Negative Energy's Might", "Nergal's Might", "Evil's Might"... whatever. I see no reason he could not cast something like that as normal level 5 spell.



I actually think you have no valid point. You compare the pure fighting ability of character X vs the pure fighting ability of character Y, neglicting all other abilities (spells etc) that character might have. Which is imo highly artificial and it's no surprise the outcome of that excercise confirms whatever premise you started with.
Doing that, everyone is going to lose vs. a pure fighter of the same or higher level. While that comparison is possible, I stronly doubt it's relevant.

Ok, seriously, I said it in the very next sentence in my post, don't chop posts.

"Sure he has fight left, and can do some damage, but the OP specifically asked if that makes Durkon, "strongest revealed melee fighter in ootsverse".

And the answer to that is unequivocally NO. The comparison with Roy was to illustrate how far behind a pure melee class Durkon is, even as a vampire, and even with cleric buffs."

It's specific because that's the premise the OP started with.

[EmperorSarda]

True, but we have no way of knowing how long it has been since Durkon was vampirized, nor we do know long the remaining Order members were trapped in the illusion.

Unless it was more than 8 hours, Vampire Durkon can't exchange/pray for some new spells.

[Reddish Mage]

True, but we have no way of knowing how long it has been since Durkon was vampirized, nor we do know long the remaining Order members were trapped in the illusion.

We know it has only been several hours, because Roy notes he is hungry but doesn't need to shave #890

[Kish]

Unless it was more than 8 hours, Vampire Durkon can't exchange/pray for some new spells.

Check again. Durkon's not a wizard. If the particular time of day Vampire Durkon prepares spells has passed, then Durkon can have prepared new spells, even if it's only been half an hour. If it hasn't, then Durkon can't have, even if it's been 23 hours.

[EmperorSarda]

Check again. Durkon's not a wizard. If the particular time of day Vampire Durkon prepares spells has passed, then Durkon can have prepared new spells, even if it's only been half an hour. If it hasn't, then Durkon can't have, even if it's been 23 hours.

But he can only exchange spells for spells he hasn't used, such as Thor's might. He cannot gain new spells to replace those he has used until after 8 hours.

[King of Nowhere]

Check again. Durkon's not a wizard. If the particular time of day Vampire Durkon prepares spells has passed, then Durkon can have prepared new spells, even if it's only been half an hour. If it hasn't, then Durkon can't have, even if it's been 23 hours.

I'm still back to the old 3.0 rules, but on those rules it was written that in order to prepare spells you need not have undertaken any activity that is "mentally tiring". then you meditate/pray/study one hour and you get your spells prepared. So nothing prevents a caster from preparing new spells multiple times per day

[Copperdragon]

Ok, seriously, I said it in the very next sentence in my post, don't chop posts.

Please only quote the relevant parts of my post, not just "everything" (where most was not addressed to you).

The comparison with Roy was to illustrate how far behind a pure melee class Durkon is, even as a vampire, and even with cleric buffs.

Yes, but Durkon (a cleric) is not only about his fighting ability, not even with buffs. Which is the reduction that was done.