Naruto VI: HASHIRAMAAAAAA!!!!!! [spoilers]

[Soras Teva Gee]

I think those gates make for a pretty good example of why today's chapter sounds like a load of BS... though that probably won't make it any less true.

[Traab]

Sasuke is totally outclassed right now. The only reason he was even semi-useful in this fight to begin with was because Naruto was pushing his attacks home.

I'm just not impressed with Sasuke in general. In his most recent fights, sure he killed Danzo, but Danzo never struck me as a particularly powerful ninja - he just had his 1-jutsu wonder of being invincible for an extended period of time. Sasuke didn't have to do anything spectacular to win, just survive for 10 minutes and auto-win. He couldn't even take out Kakashi, who got curbstomped by a single Pain body when Naruto took on all 6 at once. Then he BARELY won against Itachi, who was at death's door, and was throwing the fight to begin with!

Naruto's power is literally orders of magnitude above Sasuke. The only possible way Sasuke could compete would be to seize control of the other Kyuubi half, giving them equal chakra reserves.

And no, the Kyuubi wouldn't 'let' anything happen. He's been controlled multiple times by the Sharingan already - hell, Sasuke already used the Sharingan to control it once, the first time he and Naruto met after the timeskip.

It's going to turn into a commentary on how one person is taking power by force (Sasuke forcing the Kyuubi to submit with the Sharingan), and one getting it willingly (Naruto having Kurama's willing cooperation). It's the perfect allegory to how Sasuke and Naruto operate in general.

Oh god, the danzo fight. That was such stupidity. I think danzo intentionally ate like 6 deaths that an academy student could have dodged just to try and show how unkillable he is. He had a few interesting moments, but in general he stood there and died.... alot. I mean come on old timer! You KNOW you can only eat so many deaths before it becomes permanent, they should be your last ditch efforts or done in a way to give you a win, not thrown away as if you could do it forever. (hint, you cant)

And I like the taking versus earning power angle. Its the kind of heavy handed lesson that gets driven home in this type of story. And as someone else mentioned how amusing it is that sasuke left to get strong, despite a majority of the strongest ninja in the history of ever being taught in konoha. Truly a brain fart of epic stupidity. Though, I can cut him some slack, what with the multiple brain rapes of itachi, the curse seal inflaming his darker impulses, etc.

[Sotharsyl]

We gained ninja powers not through self introspection and learning how to master our inner power, but by eating the Ninja Ninja Fruit.

This theme of relying on one's own self I could honestly never see it as Naruto had a separate entity in him from birth which he relied on.

If the main character was like the Sannin or Kakashi or well anybody's who'se power source didn't talk back to them and had his own mind like Kurama has yeah I could see it.

So someone eating some fruit waay back doesn't bother me.

[Kato]

This theme of relying on one's own self I could honestly never see it as Naruto had a separate entity in him from birth which he relied on.

If the main character was like the Sannin or Kakashi or well anybody's who'se power source didn't talk back to them and had his own mind like Kurama has yeah I could see it.

So someone eating some fruit waay back doesn't bother me.

Uhm... not that it matters that much to me either way but Naruto very rarely used the Kyubi chakra. Only really when he went berserk prior to the training with Bee to properly control it. And then he at least somewhat earned it because he used friendship-no-jutsu on Kurama to get his power.
I forgot whether it was Jiraya or Kakashi (I think the former) who said Naruto's own huge chakra pool was what made him "special" and if anything the Kyubi chakra distorted his chakra control. And then for quite a while the Kyubi's chakra was entirely sealed so he couldn't draw from it and he was entirely fine if not better than before.

[Aotrs Commander]

Uhm... not that it matters that much to me either way but Naruto very rarely used the Kyubi chakra. Only really when he went berserk prior to the training with Bee to properly control it. And then he at least somewhat earned it because he used friendship-no-jutsu on Kurama to get his power.
I forgot whether it was Jiraya or Kakashi (I think the former) who said Naruto's own huge chakra pool was what made him "special" and if anything the Kyubi chakra distorted his chakra control. And then for quite a while the Kyubi's chakra was entirely sealed so he couldn't draw from it and he was entirely fine if not better than before.

Naruto is not, though, no matter what people try to say otherwise, an everyman hero anymore than Batman is. Naruto may have had a crappy upbringing, but he's the son of two extremely powerful ninja biologically, he's, as you say, got unusual chakra reserves because of his own biology and he's able to control Sage chakra because... I dunno, reasons? (That last part might actually be a function of who, not what, he is, I'll grant you.)

Naruto is an exceptional individual, and his strength of personality alone is not what make him so. In many regards, Naruto was starting from as good or better physical place as, say, Neji. It's only his crappy upbringing that functioned as a drag to his abilities: had the Forth not died, Naruto would likely have been leading the pack almost from the beginning of the academy in a lot of areas (okay, so probably not academically...)

It the point was about really mastering stuff/being the best you can be etc etc, without any outside help, the story would have been better focussed on Lee or Sakura, neither of whom seem to come from a clan (we don't even know anything about Lee's parents, do we?) or have any special advantages (in Sakura's case, anyway, as "having a relatively normal upbringing" is not an advantage, not having one is a disadvantage) or even a disadvantage like Lee.



Incidently, note that Lee is stated as being unable to use jutsu, not be unable to use chakra completely. I remember occasions where he's even mentioned his chakra being drained and he can use tree-climbing and water-walking. Subtle, but important, distinction.

I guess it's a bit like having Wild Talent and Psionic Talent a couple of times, but without actually being a manifester.

[LaZodiac]

The worst part about Naruto now being "inherently special" is that it kind of throws that speech he gave Neiji early on out the window. Good thing Neiji died to save him otherwise he'd probably be pretty annoyed

[Aotrs Commander]

The worst part about Naruto now being "inherently special" is that it kind of throws that speech he gave Neiji early on out the window. Good thing Neiji died to save him otherwise he'd probably be pretty annoyed

Yeah, that thought had crossed my mind as well.

Conveniant that he's dead.

Maybe too conveniant.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Well any kind of "screw destiny" speech is generally a bit pretentious in fiction because clearly the characters in a story have one. Least heroes do.

And its not like we somehow didn't know who Naruto's daddy was even when that speech was given. We didn't know "oh even without the Kyubi you've got momma's high grade chakra genes in you" though.

I tend to think most talk of destiny misses the point because it may be that your destiny is to screw the system and change the world. Or simply serve as an example to others as things to not do. Lord knows, but no one else. Its a concept almost with any significance since it changes nothing.

[LaZodiac]

Well any kind of "screw destiny" speech is generally a bit pretentious in fiction because clearly the characters in a story have one. Least heroes do.

And its not like we somehow didn't know who Naruto's daddy was even when that speech was given. We didn't know "oh even without the Kyubi you've got momma's high grade chakra genes in you" though.

I tend to think most talk of destiny misses the point because it may be that your destiny is to screw the system and change the world. Or simply serve as an example to others as things to not do. Lord knows, but no one else. Its a concept almost with any significance since it changes nothing.

I don't think we knew who Minato was at the time that speech was given, actually.

[Ramza00]

I don't think we knew who Minato was at the time that speech was given, actually.

We know Minato was the fourth hokage since the very beginning of the manga for we knew the fourth hokage died protecting the villiage from the nine tails attack and his face was one of the four hokage statues.

The next mention of him was Anko talking to the third about how big of a threat orochimaru was. (We learn that the fourth had yellow hair)

We don't really learn anything of detail about the fourth until Jiraiya enters the story after the attack of konoha by the sound / sand. Via Jiraya we learned that Jiraiya is the fourth sensei and that the fourth created the technique rasengan.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I don't think we knew who Minato was at the time that speech was given, actually.

We didn't know the 4th Hokage's name, but that he was Naruto's father was an obvious possibility strait up from the start.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Its been broadly assumed since I first was exposed to the series almost a decade back.

And Minato's appearance was clear by the time the first anime episode aired so yeah it was pretty damn early in the run.

[Morph Bark]

Well, we did already know that before the Sage, ninjutsu was non-existent, so we could've easily derived from that that before him there was no chakra (other than from the Tailed Beasts).

We gained ninja powers not through self introspection and learning how to master our inner power, but by eating the Ninja Ninja Fruit.

I can dig it.

(Suddenly Hagoromo shows up in One Piece and totally wrecks ass.)

...oh god I feel REALLY bad for Rock Lee now. The guy has no talent in the SUPER MAGICAL HOLY GOD ARTIFACT that made everyone have talent in it.

Rock Lee is Sanji and always has been.

[Coidzor]

Naruto is not, though, no matter what people try to say otherwise, an everyman hero anymore than Batman is. Naruto may have had a crappy upbringing, but he's the son of two extremely powerful ninja biologically, he's, as you say, got unusual chakra reserves because of his own biology and he's able to control Sage chakra because... I dunno, reasons? (That last part might actually be a function of who, not what, he is, I'll grant you.)

Naruto is an exceptional individual, and his strength of personality alone is not what make him so. In many regards, Naruto was starting from as good or better physical place as, say, Neji. It's only his crappy upbringing that functioned as a drag to his abilities: had the Forth not died, Naruto would likely have been leading the pack almost from the beginning of the academy in a lot of areas (okay, so probably not academically...)

It the point was about really mastering stuff/being the best you can be etc etc, without any outside help, the story would have been better focussed on Lee or Sakura, neither of whom seem to come from a clan (we don't even know anything about Lee's parents, do we?) or have any special advantages (in Sakura's case, anyway, as "having a relatively normal upbringing" is not an advantage, not having one is a disadvantage) or even a disadvantage like Lee.



Incidently, note that Lee is stated as being unable to use jutsu, not be unable to use chakra completely. I remember occasions where he's even mentioned his chakra being drained and he can use tree-climbing and water-walking. Subtle, but important, distinction.

I guess it's a bit like having Wild Talent and Psionic Talent a couple of times, but without actually being a manifester.

You've got me curious now though, what is the theme?

[Legato Endless]

There are probably two themes.

At the beginning, it looked like team work would be pretty endemic to the story, but while it never quite vanished, 1 versus 1 duels still managed to become something of a series stable. Not quite to the irrationality of Bleach, but still notable.

Along with the inherently gifted Naruto, the Uchihas and the lineage of the Sage still dominate far too much of the plot for it to have an "everyman" theme.

Firt, the old generation making way for the new. This is hammered on almost to the point of ageism. Konoha's creed is little more than a flowery metaphor for this. Immortals in the series are either villains or violations of the natural order. The Konoha 11 are hyped as being part of a new generation, the adolescent 1st Hokage talks of how adults have screwed up the world and how he will change it, and so on.

Theme 2 asks how can you save someone from himself. On the personal level, Sasuke and Naruto, and more broadly the world itself. The two themes converge in the "cycle of hatred" that Kishimoto keeps telling us is so a problem.

Then again, I might be giving the author too much credit, considering he feels obliged to point out to us that people kill people with ninjutsu and without. Something we were all pretty clear on from the beginning.

[leafman]

Let me see if I have this right.

The Sage of the Six Paths is the son of the princess that ate a fruit that imbued her with chakra. The Sage was the first person to be born with chakra and is noted to be the ancestor of shinobi. The Sage had two sons. Before he died, he gave one son his "eyes" (Uchiha) and the other son his "body"(Senju). Does this then mean that the entire ninja population descends from either the Senju son or the Uchiha son?

ETA: If that is true, then Kakashi's bit about the Byakugan being related to the Sharingan might also be true.

[LaZodiac]

Let me see if I have this right.

The Sage of the Six Paths is the son of the princess that ate a fruit that imbued her with chakra. The Sage was the first person to be born with chakra and is noted to be the ancestor of shinobi. The Sage had two sons. Before he died, he gave one son his "eyes" (Uchiha) and the other son his "body"(Senju). Does this then mean that the entire ninja population descends from either the Senju son or the Uchiha son?

ETA: If that is true, then Kakashi's bit about the Byakugan being related to the Sharingan might also be true.

That's the implication we are supposed to gather from this, yes.

Although I imagine it's more likely that he just had WAY more families then just the Senju and Uchiha, and he just didn't give THEM anything special. Or he just touched people to give them ninja powers or something.

I personally want to believe Madara is just bull****ting, since only an Uchiha can read the tablet.

[ben-zayb]

Would this make the Kaguya clan the proto-shinobi clan then? Kimimaro, anyone?

EDIT: Wait a freaking second, the last chapter also noted the Sage's name is Hagoromo Otsutsuki, which might mean Kaguya is her first name and not the clan name.

But its weird that not only is there a Kaguya clan, but also a Hagoromo clan. And isn't the Hagoromo clan one of the Senju clan's enemies too aside from the Uchiha?

[Kato]

As her son was named Otsutsuki as well, yeah, it seems logical for this to be their clan name.

I'll have to agree with Zodiac... while there are arguments to make it work the Sage spawning all ninjas in the world (one way or another) just seems pretty stupid to me. Yeah, this IS Kishi writing so it's not impossible that's what he is going for but I don't like it. It would be fine if he just started people teaching how to use chakra - maybe the point is he gave them part of his chakra and thus their kids were able to be born with chakra naturally(????)
Or maybe it is somehow crappy translation and the fruit didn't give her chakra but just magically taught her to use it... but this wouldn't make much sense either.


I stand by my point.. I don't like that backstory and I hope whatever is written on the Uchiha monument is just "Whoever reads this is an idiot". It would be better than this.

[ben-zayb]

Well, yeah, the backstory is really not convincing as it is. A dozen clan exists in Konoha alone, and there are four major shinobi villages plus some minor villages more.

So in the spirit of making the ridiculous story more palatable, what if Hagoromo had a daughter? Yes! Yes! And then, make her path to peace something ridiculous like "indulgence"; that is, true peace will happen if everybody else (aside from the Uchiha and Senju) will be equally given with chakra/jutsu/whatevs to their hearts' content.

There. The primordial momma of non-Uchiha, non-Senju shinobi.

[Aotrs Commander]

You've got me curious now though, what is the theme?

To be honest, I'm not sure it has one, or at least, not the one it started with.

The recent retcons, as I understand them through the lens of what you guys are saying (since I'm only up to Naruto about to go all eight-tails on Pain in the anime) seems to be making less and less world-sense and are slowly destroying what world-building there was and replacing it with some kind of... I dunno even what to say. Bloodline centric? Poor rationalisation to bring back all the kages and dead villains for fights? Exposition retcon theatre? The Uchiha becoming the central plot element around which everything, including the titular character, rotates (odd end result, really considering Sasuke was initially an afterthought...)

The teamwork thing has sort of gone by the board, unfortunately (and I think why Will of Fire did such a superlative job that the main series isn't living up to).

Maybe the theme is "Uchihas are and always have been asshats?"

I honestly have no clue at this point.

[Olinser]

To be honest, I'm not sure it has one, or at least, not the one it started with.

The recent retcons, as I understand them through the lens of what you guys are saying (since I'm only up to Naruto about to go all eight-tails on Pain in the anime) seems to be making less and less world-sense and are slowly destroying what world-building there was and replacing it with some kind of... I dunno even what to say. Bloodline centric? Poor rationalisation to bring back all the kages and dead villains for fights? Exposition retcon theatre? The Uchiha becoming the central plot element around which everything, including the titular character, rotates (odd end result, really considering Sasuke was initially an afterthought...)

The teamwork thing has sort of gone by the board, unfortunately (and I think why Will of Fire did such a superlative job that the main series isn't living up to).

Maybe the theme is "Uchihas are and always have been asshats?"

I honestly have no clue at this point.

I really hate when people use the word 'retcon' and don't understand what it actually means.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Would this make the Kaguya clan the proto-shinobi clan then? Kimimaro, anyone?

EDIT: Wait a freaking second, the last chapter also noted the Sage's name is Hagoromo Otsutsuki, which might mean Kaguya is her first name and not the clan name.

But its weird that not only is there a Kaguya clan, but also a Hagoromo clan. And isn't the Hagoromo clan one of the Senju clan's enemies too aside from the Uchiha?

Its not weird because Kaguya is a fairly logical Japanese name for a big important princess. Especially for what's evidently an in-universe oldest tale.

Also there's limits within Japanese for names and in what seems (to me not speaking Japanese) a certain soft distinction between say clan and family with names changing over time. Its entirely possible to have a family head have adopted a name at a later date. I'm aware that the descendents of Abe no Seimei still around having long been under the name Tsuchimikado which is also the given/reigning name of two Emperors. And far as I can find these facts are not directly related

[ben-zayb]

Also there's limits within Japanese for names and in what seems (to me not speaking Japanese) a certain soft distinction between say clan and family with names changing over time. Its entirely possible to have a family head have adopted a name at a later date. I'm aware that the descendents of Abe no Seimei still around having long been under the name Tsuchimikado which is also the given/reigning name of two Emperors. And far as I can find these facts are not directly related

So it would be like naming the clan in honor of an Emperor? If that's the case, Kaguya and Hagoromo clan are at least doing their homework!

[Soras Teva Gee]

So it would be like naming the clan in honor of an Emperor? If that's the case, Kaguya and Hagoromo clan are at least doing their homework!

I can't confirm that in the case of our IRL kitsune boy's descendants since I would have to learn Japanese... and worse classical Japanese. How deleting the Tenno kanji from the name and punching them into google tells me the kanji are the same from a couple of things. Low hanging fruit, they possibly just liked the idea of calling themselves "earth-ruler" since mikado itself means emperor (not the Emperor which is Tenno and more literally "heavenly sovereign") and tsuchi means earth.

For our fictional kitsune boy's own series... yeah that's possibly the in-universe explanation. Though for the timeline involved its hard to make too many conclusions. They may not have known who "Kaguya" or "Hagoromo" were for example, but they may have passed into language other ways. Presumably at least one person has been named Arthur with no real knowledge or intention to connect it to Arthurian Legend despite said legend apparently originating the name wholesale.

(And meta perspective just says Kishi made a reference more then once. Kimimaro for example is far enough back that its reasonably likely Kishi's didn't concieve of Kaguya and moon-returning-robe-boy's name until much much later. Though they are more Amaterasu and Jimmu then Taketori Monogatari anyways)

[darksolitaire]

I'm amazed that people here seems to take in-world myths as canon history. There's stuff written in Uchiha stone boulder. Move along, nothing to see here.

[Aotrs Commander]

I really hate when people use the word 'retcon' and don't understand what it actually means.

Considering the things that have been ignored or over-written by Shippuden from the original, I don't think it's the wrong word. (Two examples that spring to mind are that in the first, Shukaku was said to be the spirit of an insane monk. Also the line in which Kakashi says the sharingarn is descended from the byakugan...)

I was, though, mostly speaking hyperbolically. All these recent reveals, may or may not be retcons, but they (allegedly, again I can only go off what you guys say) appear contrived and/or silly that they seem like them even if they aren't.

[Soras Teva Gee]

@darksolitaire:

Its a little late in the game for the "legend that turns out to be total bull****" card to be played though its not impossible.

Its supported with visual depiction thus effort on the part of Kishi to draw that thus is beyond simply a throw-away line. Also its not the first time for this since, it goes back to the whole "you can't sense the Juubi" thing about chakra from when it was first resurrected. And the Sage originating ninjutsu too.

I decide whether the "I'm Madara really yo!", "I gave Pain his powers yo!", and "Itachi is totally not brother raping villainous diarrhea, feel sympathy for him yo!" among other things helps or hurts the likelihood of this holding up.

[Coidzor]

Let me see if I have this right.

The Sage of the Six Paths is the son of the princess that ate a fruit that imbued her with chakra. The Sage was the first person to be born with chakra and is noted to be the ancestor of shinobi. The Sage had two sons. Before he died, he gave one son his "eyes" (Uchiha) and the other son his "body"(Senju). Does this then mean that the entire ninja population descends from either the Senju son or the Uchiha son?

ETA: If that is true, then Kakashi's bit about the Byakugan being related to the Sharingan might also be true.

Look at how many people are descended from Charlemagne. Or how every U.S. President can be traced back to King John, and a 5th grader was the first person to actually do so, as I recall. Or how much of the world is believed to be descended from Ghengis Khan. Or Y-Chromosomal Adam or Mitochondrial Eve or how around 40% of Azhkenazi Jews are apparently descended from a group of four women.

Combine that with positions of nobility and presumably wealth and magical powers that make you very capable of murdering, enslaving, and otherwise dominating normal people and which seem to work against having good sense... It's simply a matter of generations and how much the descendants like to travel, though how much power they maintain also factors into it.

[Olinser]

Considering the things that have been ignored or over-written by Shippuden from the original, I don't think it's the wrong word. (Two examples that spring to mind are that in the first, Shukaku was said to be the spirit of an insane monk. Also the line in which Kakashi says the sharingarn is descended from the byakugan...)

I was, though, mostly speaking hyperbolically. All these recent reveals, may or may not be retcons, but they (allegedly, again I can only go off what you guys say) appear contrived and/or silly that they seem like them even if they aren't.

'Shukaku was said to be the spirit of an insane monk'. So what? So a local legend basically made up because the village didn't really understand what a Tailed Beast was turns out to be inaccurate. Shukaku himself appears to be at least partially insane, his personality when he was in control of Gaara was pretty over the top. Nothing about him is anything close to a retcon at this point.

And nobody ever said the Sharingan descended from the Byakugan. Together the Sharingan, Byakugan and Rinnegan made up the prime 3 Doujutsu. A couple people have said that BOTH of them were thought to descend from the Rinnegan, and that the Sage was the original to possess the Rinnegan, but nobody ever claimed that the Sharingan descended from the Byakugan.

Given how little people outside the clans actually understand about the Sharingan and Byakugan, it's no surprise people have no idea how they actually work.

So in short, neither of those is a retcon.