Tippyverse DnD VS Tippyverse Potterverse

[undead hero]

It was that an average wizard would probably fail against someone with a shotgun. They just don't have combat training since they're a baker, storekeep, teacher, or whatever.

Sooo Kentucky (my home state) versus HP Wizards = Kentucky wins.

So I think D&D Wizards have a shot to win.

[Arcanist]

Sooo Kentucky (my home state) versus HP Wizards = Kentucky wins.

So I think D&D Wizards have a shot to win.

That pun HAD to be intended... It is just TOO bad to actually have been accidental

[undead hero]

That pun HAD to be intended... It is just TOO bad to actually have been accidental

As the great truckasaurus would say "Yuuuuup"

[Eldariel]

In my books, the superior time control of D&D makes this a non-contest. Celerity, Time Stop and Teleport Through Time completely and utterly trump everything in HP speed-wise and since speed is the primary measurement here (who acts first generally wins with the power of offense we're talking here). If you really have trouble ending someone, just Unname them. Or Mindrape them. Or hell, Imprison them.

[Emmerask]

Except for celerity I dont really think so.

In general d&d characters are extremely slow in comparison to HP humans (who use our timeframe).

Lets take time stop, thats 2 to 5 casts in 5 seconds (if you use quickcast its 4 to 10) that really is nothing most likely Dumbledore could do 5 casts in 5 secs without any spell aid.
So time stop in the end just speeds d&d wizards up to HP human casting speeds or depending on rolls a bit faster.

And without it 1 to 2 casts every 5 secs is something even low level hp wizards can do without problem.

Time travel is also in favor of HP with items that allow it to everyone without much knowledge or skill.

Not saying that HP universe has a chance but time is actually something very much in favor of hp ^^

[undead hero]

In my books, the superior time control of D&D makes this a non-contest. Celerity, Time Stop and Teleport Through Time completely and utterly trump everything in HP speed-wise and since speed is the primary measurement here (who acts first generally wins with the power of offense we're talking here). If you really have trouble ending someone, just Unname them. Or Mindrape them. Or hell, Imprison them.

DND wizards don't even need to be anywhere close enough to have to use those spells

[Threadnaught]

Hmm, obviously HP loses since you're giving the other side Epic Level Spellcasting -- kind of insanely unfair to do that, imho.

Not just in your opinion, but also in the rules of the Tippyverse, where there is no Epic Magic.


However, consider the whole direct assault I posted about earlier. HP Wizards are the Cybermen, Muggles are the Humans and the TV Wizards are the Daleks.

Then there's the question of what happens if a high level Druid gets involved.

[Flickerdart]

Then there's the question of what happens if a high level Druid gets involved.

Not much. Well, unless it's a Planar Shepherd keyed to one of the more insane planes.

[Vedhin]

Tippyverse would definitely win. Why? They have reliable divination. They can easily choose a course of action with a 0% failure rate.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Honestly the biggest strength of the HP magic would be "avada kadavra." I'm not sure it would allow a save. Though, it's probably not that huge of a strength when a majority of spellcasters in the HP world are Good and refuse to use that spell.

[Randomguy]

Think 1984 meets D&D with a darker utopian style to it and you've effectively got the Tippyverse from how Tippy describes it to everyone when they ask (Actually, I expect him to arrive fairly shortly to correct me). In the Tippyverse, there is no hunger, no disease; It is a post scarcity society where people are expected to ignorantly serve a master that they do not know exist and is monitoring their every actions... My god this setting sounds pretty cool

This seems to be how the Tippyverse is perceived in this thread, DESPITE THE FACT THAT TIPPY SPECIFICALLY SAYS IT ISN'T TRUE:

What the Tippyverse isn’t:
1. It’s not a world ruled by a single all powerful wizard who mind rapes the opposition (at least not traditionally).
2. It’s not a 1984/Parinoia/Big Brother world where freedom does not exist and the government controls every facet of life

And from later in that thread:

Not to mention I'm mildly annoyed at all the people who think it's nothing more than a mind rape setting. It was never that and was always as attempt to make a setting that allowed all forms of play across a broad spectrum of levels and play styles while still maintaining suspension of disbelief, verisimilitude, and an inability for the PC's to drastically redefine the world with even a modicum of common sense.

Now that that's out of the way:

There Potterverse does have some magic that would be very useful in a Tippyverse. They've got an at will Dispel with Finite Incantatem, for one. They've also got a load of teleportation, with at will Greater Teleport in the form of Apparition, and port-keys which can be made fairly easily by powerful enough wizards.
Another place where Potterverse Wizards have an advantage is healing magic: They've got some arcane Cure spells for minor wounds and potions and stuff for more serious wounds.
Disillusionment charms are also neat, since they provide a bonus to hide checks rather than actually making you invisible, meaning they can't be detected by True Seeing, you'd need Prying Eyes.

In combat, the two most useful things would probably be Protego, since that's essentially Wings of Cover (I'm basing this off the fact that it can be used to block a spell reactively and not set up in advance) and again Apparition, since that's also been used as an immediate action to dodge spells.

In the end I'd still give the win to DnD wizards, though. For one thing, DnD wizards have better divinations, so they can actually use Scry and Die tactics, while HP wizards only have the teleporting bit. For another, DnD wizards have too much control of the Action Economy to be defeated.

[Talderas]

Honestly the biggest strength of the HP magic would be "avada kadavra." I'm not sure it would allow a save. Though, it's probably not that huge of a strength when a majority of spellcasters in the HP world are Good and refuse to use that spell.

HP alchemy is far more potent than D&D. In D&D, outside a few wonderous item elixers, the vast majority of alchemy involves known poisones or spells of up to 3rd level. Additionally, the spell potions do not function if dilluted or mixed with other things. HP alchemy does not have this sort of problem. The value or usefulness of that is debatable.

[unseenmage]

HP alchemy is far more potent than D&D. In D&D, outside a few wonderous item elixers, the vast majority of alchemy involves known poisones or spells of up to 3rd level. Additionally, the spell potions do not function if dilluted or mixed with other things. HP alchemy does not have this sort of problem. The value or usefulness of that is debatable.

You do realize that this is irrelevant right? Even as thrown alchemical weapons potions just don't have the range to compete with spells. Even in Potterverse, let alone in D&Dverse with their "400 feet + 40 feet per caster level." spells.

I might be missing something you were implying but I just don't see bringing potions to a spell fight as being relevant.

It's be like bringing a bag of grenades to a sniper fight. Sure you demolished some stuff but you're still riddled with holes, y'know?

[Flickerdart]

Additionally, the spell potions do not function if dilluted or mixed with other things.

I recommend you look up potion miscibility rules.

[Hecuba]

Magic items in HP are highly underpowered, I'd like to add. The Deathly Hollows, the most powerful known magical items in the series, can literally be constructed by a 7th level Wizard.

Most famous, certainly.
Most long lasting, probably.
Probably not most powerful though.

The most directly powerful of the three, the wand, seems to be the equivalent of a +lots of caster level item.
Depending on how much plus +lots is, that might be very nice, but the three of the them are mostly just legendary/famous.

The at-will personal, portable time-machines probably trumps (even if they are Novikov self-consistent). *
Heck, the false eye of always-on true-seeing is also worth noting (that gets you up to a level 9 caster, sans-shenanigans).
The Goblet of Fire is probably an item of Geas.

Even then, your generalized point holds: most of what we see is strictly mid-level. But it does seem to be more readily available and easier to create.

*trumps the hallows, not high-end D&D.

[shadow_archmagi]

HP Wizards get obliterated. No matter how good their spells are, they're basically all Rays, and a TV wizard that gets within line of sight while his opponent can act has done something wrong. TV wizards don't even set foot on the HP plane before everyone is dead.

[Flickerdart]

HP Wizards get obliterated. No matter how good their spells are, they're basically all Rays, and a TV wizard that gets within line of sight while his opponent can act has done something wrong. TV wizards don't even set foot on the HP plane before everyone is dead.

Dead? Come on, use every part of the buffalo. Indoctrinated, at least.

[Drachasor]

Sooo Kentucky (my home state) versus HP Wizards = Kentucky wins.

So I think D&D Wizards have a shot to win.

Don't get too big of a head over that. The average D&D wizard also dies to a commoner with a shotgun. Average D&D wizards are extremely low level, aren't adventurers, and don't regularly prepare combat spells. Adventurers are not the norm.

Kentucky against HP non-muggle bakers, accountants, etc. have a decent shot at winning. Your State has zero chance of winning against an HP Ministry of Magic.

That said, high level D&D wizards have a lot of tricks up their sleeves as others have noted. I don't see a good way for HP wizards to win, short of a prophecy declaring that they'll win.

If you cap D&D levels at 10, I think HP wins without too much trouble. It's on the march to 20 that they start to really fall behind.

Though, if we were going to optimize the HP universe, then I think they have a much better shot. Easy time travel, fantastic divination (thanks to Centaurs and probably other magical creatures), the ability to teleport through wards (thanks to House Elves), etc, etc. There's a lot of HP that could be leveraged a heck of a lot better.

HP Wizards get obliterated. No matter how good their spells are, they're basically all Rays, and a TV wizard that gets within line of sight while his opponent can act has done something wrong. TV wizards don't even set foot on the HP plane before everyone is dead.

Not so. They have AoE spells. Fiendfyre is particularly nasty here. They can make constructs in a split second. Dumbledore took out a room of Aurors with a single spell (non-lethally, I might add). They also can fire off spells a lot quicker than D&D Wizards.

Their transmutation ability was hardly touched on. Same with their potion-making. They can do the D&D equivalent of bottling nat 20s for the day -- FOR THE DAY.

I think it would actually take a lot of time to figure out what a fully realistic and properly optimized HP-verse would look like. It definitely wouldn't look like the books.

[Elderand]

Sniper rifle round to the face from a km away is the standard way for normal peoples to take care of wizards. A dnd wizard could survive that what with hyper reaction time and force field and the like. HP magic is almost entirely offensive and counterspell based. No force shield from what I can remember and nothing that can help if taken by surprise.

[Flickerdart]

If you cap D&D levels at 10, I think HP wins without too much trouble. It's on the march to 20 that they start to really fall behind.

What's HP's answer to Lesser Planar Binding and Plane Shift? Dumping a big ol' sack of demons (not to mention constructs and undead) into the HP world without the HP wizards ever being to strike back means that TP will win eventually.

[Drachasor]

What's HP's answer to Lesser Planar Binding and Plane Shift? Dumping a big ol' sack of demons (not to mention constructs and undead) into the HP world without the HP wizards ever being to strike back means that TP will win eventually.

Seriously? Constructs and Undead? You're kidding right? HP wizards can MAKE constructs faster than D&D wizards can make both constructs and undead combined.

Avada Kedavra kills D&D constructs, demons, and all or almost all undead. No save, no SR.

An optimized HP has excellent divination via magical creatures. Centaurs, for instant, definitely seem to have a much better idea of what's going on than Wizards in HP. A combined force of HP universe will know when things are coming just as well as D&D wizards.

Edit: Oh and worst case regarding divination, you just leverage a Felix Felicis potion properly and you get all the answers to everything you want. (It's actually better than just nat 20s on everything).

What makes you think HP wizards can't strike back? They clearly can make portals more bizarre than to other planes. Sirius fell into one.

[Flickerdart]

Seriously? Constructs and Undead? You're kidding right? HP wizards can MAKE constructs faster than D&D wizards can make both constructs and undead combined.

Avada Kedavra kills D&D constructs, demons, and all or almost all undead. No save, no SR.

I don't remember a single golem, demon, or zombie in HP, certainly not one that was killed with Avada Kedavra. Remind me?

What makes you think HP wizards can't strike back? They clearly can make portals more bizarre than to other planes. Sirius fell into one.

Conjecture. Unless you can provide evidence that Harry Potter wizards can travel between planes, we cannot assume that they are able to do so.

And Felix isn't divination - you trust the potion that things will work out, but you still don't know what's coming, and it explicitly won't stop spells from killing you.

[dascarletm]

What's HP's answer to Lesser Planar Binding and Plane Shift? Dumping a big ol' sack of demons (not to mention constructs and undead) into the HP world without the HP wizards ever being to strike back means that TP will win eventually.

Planeshift is debatable since other planes do not exist in PV, so that topic is not discussed. If we are using the separate worlds scenario then that spell would probably not have any effect on the PV dimension. Depends on how we set up the scenario, and who we want to give the advantage.

Constructs and Undead were fought in PV, and they showed to have little resistance to spells. Perhaps most of them are SR:No. There are also many spells that higher "level" wizards in PV use that are not direct rays and such. Things that use the environment against the opponent. Those would probably be effective.

[Quorothorn]

The problem here, as I see it, is the basic disconnect in trying to compare a game system that has existed and been worked over by obsessives for a decade and a half, with numerous splatbooks with overpowered or 'breakable' aspects, at its most theoretically overoptimized, absurdist form, 'against'...the world of a series of books that, although it has also existed and been worked over by obsessives for a decade and a half, exists and was worked over in a much different manner, if that makes sense to y'all.

We don't know what a "Tippyverse" version of HP would really look like since the same principles that created such a thing for D&D have not been applied to the HP 'verse, and, to be frank, probably can't be, at least not to the same degree, since the HP magic system is not mechanized to even comparably the same degree as 3.5 D&D's. And comparing any actual fantasy story to Theoretically Optimized 3rd Edition Dungeons and Dragons is kind of...ridiculous, as we all ought to know simply by being on the GitP forums.

Much of the comparison so far seems to have been Tippyverse "against" HP 'verse as seen in the books, and/or trying to translate HP magic as seen in the books to D&D terms, rather than what the topic title seems to have suggested...because we just don't really have a "Tippyverse" equivalent for the Potterverse, at least not to my knowledge.

[Hecuba]

I don't remember a single golem, demon, or zombie in HP, certainly not one that was killed with Avada Kedavra. Remind me?

I think the Golem reference is regarding the Centaur Statue from the Fountain of Magical Brethren, which Dumbledore intercepted an AK during the Atrium Duel and was "killed."

As far as I can tell, the other two are conjecture.

[Flickerdart]

I don't think you can compare an Animated Object with an actual proper golem.

[Drachasor]

I don't remember a single golem, demon, or zombie in HP, certainly not one that was killed with Avada Kedavra. Remind me?

Dumbledore uses a spell to make a construct to block an Avada Kadevra when he fights Voldemort. The construct explodes.

And Felix isn't divination - you trust the potion that things will work out, but you still don't know what's coming, and it explicitly won't stop spells from killing you.

1. Have Bob drink Felix.

2. Bob, here are our resources, how should we direct our troops?

3. What sort of defenses do we need to setup?

4. The research team has hit a snag Bob, here's what they are doing. Any suggestions?

5. If you had to pick a time, when do you think the next enemy attack will be?

6. Ok, we're going to hunt for infiltrators and mind-controlled wizards, Bob. What location should we start at first?

Etc, etc, etc. (Edit: Last tasks: Bob, who should drink the potion tomorrow? What questions should we ask them?)

It leads you to the optimal answers to whatever you are after. It's ripe for abuse. (As for the side effects of long term exposure, that's easily avoided by changing who uses it).

[dascarletm]

The problem here, as I see it, is the basic disconnect in trying to compare a game system that has existed and been worked over by obsessives for a decade and a half, with numerous splatbooks with overpowered or 'breakable' aspects, at its most theoretically overoptimized, absurdist form, 'against'...the world of a series of books that, although it has also existed and been worked over by obsessives for a decade and a half, exists and was worked over in a much different manner, if that makes sense to y'all.

We don't know what a "Tippyverse" version of HP would really look like since the same principles that created such a thing for D&D have not been applied to the HP 'verse, and, to be frank, probably can't be, at least not to the same degree, since the HP magic system is not mechanized to even comparably the same degree as 3.5 D&D's. And comparing any actual fantasy story to Theoretically Optimized 3rd Edition Dungeons and Dragons is kind of...ridiculous, as we all ought to know simply by being on the GitP forums.

Much of the comparison so far seems to have been Tippyverse "against" HP 'verse as seen in the books, and/or trying to translate HP magic as seen in the books to D&D terms, rather than what the topic title seems to have suggested...because we just don't really have a "Tippyverse" equivalent for the Potterverse, at least not to my knowledge.

I don't remember a single golem, demon, or zombie in HP, certainly not one that was killed with Avada Kedavra. Remind me?

Undead: Inferi (may or may not be resilient to AK)
Constructs: Piertotum Locomotor Creates constructs. Animated suits of armor which would be of the construct type. (seen in movies as being destroyed by spells appearing to be AK)
Demon not so much.

Conjecture. Unless you can provide evidence that Harry Potter wizards can travel between planes, we cannot assume that they are able to do so.

We cannot assume one way or the other really. The topic isn't covered since a multiplane cosmology is not the one in which PV resides

And Felix isn't divination - you trust the potion that things will work out, but you still don't know what's coming, and it explicitly won't stop spells from killing you.

Conjecture give me an example of a spell killing someone under the effects of the spell. Thus we cannot assume...

[Drachasor]

I think the Golem reference is regarding the Centaur Statue from the Fountain of Magical Brethren, which Dumbledore intercepted an AK during the Atrium Duel and was "killed."

As far as I can tell, the other two are conjecture.

Yes. Based off the fact it can kill something that's not even alive, I don't see why it couldn't handle a Demon.

Also, it is a fact nothing can block the spell. That's repeated over and over and over again. Definitely SR no. I believe it is used in the books once or twice against creatures that would have the HP SR equivalent.

On undead: I suppose you could argue it is "negative energy" but that is REALLY pure conjecture at that point. By D&D rules it is the only way their undead could survive -- though possibly incoporeal undead would be ok. Dementors don't seem killable, though we don't really know what they are.

And by D&D standards, if it can kill a construct, it can kill undead. They have the same resistances as far as that goes. Short of that, there's fiendfyre and other ways for HP wizards to do mass damage.

[Elderand]

Avada Kedavra is a non issue, any dnd wizard who did is homework will know that a large part of HP spells are rays, including the famous "you're dead lol".
That simply means wizards from dnd will show up with ray deflection.