[PF] Alchemist Guides and the lack thereof

[StreamOfTheSky]

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Inferno Bomb: This is also a moderate amount of fire damage at 16th level...it's really not that amazing for when you get it. Green?

Infuse Mutagen: Yeah, red.

Infusion: I hate this freaking thing! It makes you pay for what other casters get for free. Except it's not even just THAT bad! It also still doesn't let you actually use multi-target buffs like haste properly! WTF? And then the coup de grace came from JJ (class creator) himself, when he said you cannot dismiss an infusion, it lasts until "used," which opens up all kinds of "gotchya!" risks of permanently losing those extract slots should an infusion be stolen, with no means to recover! RED RED RED RED RED The only thing I hate worse than blatant feat taxes are ones that that also can massively **** you over.

Mummification: Rating couldn't be more accurate. I really wanted this for my alchemist, but it doesn't let you start the regimen till you take the extract, and 30 days in my game means 2-3 character levels gained, it's so fast paced. Totally just not worth it in games like that.

Parasitic Twin: How would you rate Slippery Mind? Take that, then drop it like 2 colors because this is basically SM but far more limited use. I guess Orange works... It's just really underwhelming; red might even be appropriate.

Poison Conversion: This should not be red unless all poison discoveries are red. It is one of the best of them, and like I said has potentially good combos like inhaled drow poison. Might even be green.

Rocket Bomb: Whoah! How is this red? The range and area increases go perfectly with the cloud type bombs that are already the best choice to use. You can't use Precise Bombs, so it won't be useful all the time, but it's still going to be in lots of situations and will often be a great lead-off on round 1. I'd make it blue!

Siege Bomb: I don't know a lot about them either, but I do know I've used exactly zero siege weapons in a decade of D&D. Should be red until proven otherwise. By level 12, I'm skeptical armies are even attacking with siege weapons any more, why isn't this available right away?!

Sticky Bomb: I think it's only green if you have a favored class bomb damage bonus, otherwise the splash damage will be too little to care about for this.

Stink Bomb: Biggest plus is that you can get it at level 3, before the wizard! Downsides are smaller area (fixed w/ rocket bomb) and only 1 round duration (that part just sucks, oh well).

Tanglefoot Bomb: I think on its own, it's Orange, just not good enough. Bramble Brewer's version is easily at least Green, though.

Tentacle: It's awesome! ...Maybe better for melee or archer alchemists than bombers, though. I use mine to hold a (darkwood; no check penalty!) heavy shield, which is a pretty basic use but means I spent a discovery and a small amount of money for +2 to +7 AC, depending on enhancement level, without having to forfeit one of my hands from attacking. Totally worth it. At least green.

Tumor Familiar: It's great, possibly blue. Compsognathus means you're getting Imp. Init if nothing else. And UMD is a class skill, and you can xfer your ranks to it. Opens up Improved Familiar for even more awesome. I would not check out die for your master, though...it's HORRIBLE.

Vestigial Arm: As with Tentacle, except this also means you have a spot for any extra claw attacks you may gain. Say you have claws from race and Feral mutagen, for example. The arms would give you a spot for those claw attacks. For a str-user, they can 2H your main weapon while you still have the other hands for claws or the like to 2ndary with. Definitely at least green. Less useful for bombers, again, but they aren't the target audience for this one.

[The Random NPC]

I'd assume Rocket Bomb is red because it's Goblin only.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, Goblin does not boost Int, but it gives a whopping +4 to the 2nd most important stat, drops your super dump stat, and is small sized. So it's hardly a horrible race choice, just not the best one.

Also, again... Humans can take the feat to count as another race anyway.

Now, since it's short and mostly garbage (ie, easy to rate), I will rank the Grand Discoveries if the OP doesn't mind.

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Awakened Intellect: +2 Int? That's your capstone? WEAKSAUCE.
Greater Change Alignment: I'm sure this has all sorts of interesting story potential and crap, and the sheer illogical mess that turning an outsider MADE OF EVIL into good-aligned is hilarious. But this is just not practically useful at all.
Eternal Youth: Oh, yay. It's Timeless Body even later than normal! You get to remove existing penalties, but unless you were actually sucking them down this whole time already, that probably is meaningless to you.
Fast Healing: This won't make a difference at level 20 in combat. Out of combat...you seriously still can't afford wands of CLW?
Philosopher's Stone: Ok, at least this one is interesting. You can create a minor artifact, for free! It can be used to make lots of money, or to make True Res oil, both nice. Your DM might allow using it for other things, too, who knows?
Poison Touch: I don't think this is even useful by level 20...
True Mutagen: Now hold on a sec. I know the numbers *look* good. But think about it. Your prime stat is not increasing. At all. Your 2nd most important is going up by only +2. Your 3rd most important physical stat, which you may very well not even actually care about (especially if dex-based and not str) gets a +4. Oh, and +2 natural armor...sexy... This really isn't so good. Possibly green for a str-based melee alchemist, but I think even that's seriously lowering your expectations for what a capstone should be.

[ArcanistSupreme]

This is a great project! I wouldn't mind formatting all of this into one place, if nobody else intends to. If not, my proposed layout is as follows:

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Introduction

• Color Coding
• Class Overview
• Bomber vs. Melee
• Role Overview

Race Selection

• Bomber Attribute Priorities
• Bomber Race Comparison
• Bomber Attribute Distribution
• Melee Attribute Priorities
• Melee Race Comparison
• Melee Attribute Distribution

Class Features

• Class Feature Overview
• Bomber Discovery Overview
• Melee Discovery Overview

Skills and Feats

• Skill Selection
• Bomber Feat Selection
• Melee Feat Selection

Equipment

• Weapons and Armor
• Wondrous Items
• Wands and Consumables
• Why Potions are a Trap

Extracts

• 1st Level Extracts
• 2nd Level Extracts
• 3rd Level Extracts
• 4th Level Extracts
• 5th Level Extracts
• 6th Level Extracts

Archetypes

• Bomber Archetypes
• Melee Archetypes
• IT'S A TRAP Archetypes

Multiclassing

• Bomber Multiclassing
• Bomber Prestige Classes
• Melee Multiclassing
• Melee Prestige Classes

Sample Builds

Also, I would like to note that I strongly prefer that color coded words be bolded. To me,

Turquoise: A must have. Simply one of the best available options.
Blue: Very good. Any of these will be strong picks.
Green: Good in the right circumstances, but often situational. Be careful when selecting these.
Orange: Niche choice. Will either come up very rarely or be unimpressive when it does come up.
Red: Bad. Just don't take these.

is leaps and bounds more readable than

Turquoise: A must have. Simply one of the best available options.
Blue: Very good. Any of these will be strong picks.
Green: Good in the right circumstances, but often situational. Be careful when selecting these.
Orange: Niche choice. Will either come up very rarely or be unimpressive when it does come up.
Red: Bad. Just don't take these.

/2 cents

[Squirrel_Dude]

Note: With all of these, I have not taken whether or not they are racially exclusive into account. I know that things like Blend (elf), and Paragon surge (1/2 elf) are, but am unsure about the other ones. Also, because the paizo pathfinder society reference document is easier to copy+paste, that's the list of extracts that I'm using.

1st level extracts

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Adjuring Step: It's not that it's bad, it's that illusion of calm is better in my opinion.
Ant Haul:
Anticipate Peril: How often do you really have time to ready yourself to roll initiative? How often do you want to have a spell prepared for that situation?
Blend: It's hide in plain sight with a bonus to stealth for 10 minutes. A must for any Vivisectionist.
Bomber's Eye: Bomber's want this, mutants don't
Comprehend Languages:
Crafter's Fortune:
Cure Light Wounds: If you get this, make sure to help someone make a wand of it.
Detect Secret Doors: Let someone else do this
Detect Undead:
Disguise Self:
Endure Elements: Pick it up before you head to the desert and not a moment sooner.
Enlarge Person: A buff for you or your friends.
Expeditious Retreat:
Identify:
Illusion of Calm:
Jump:
Keen Senses: Only barely, and only if you don't have low-light or darkvision.
Linebreaker: Decent for a mutagen user
Longshot: Bombers get this
Negate Aroma: This is probably generous
Polypurpose Panacea: There are a ton of things this spell can do, maybe one of them can be useful.
Recharge Innate Magic:
Reduce Person: A buff for some friends, or a debuff for your enemies.
See Alignment:
Shield: Better for people staying out of melee
Shock Shield: Better for people staying in melee with a bunch of enemies.
Stone Fist:
Targeted Bomb Admixture: Bombers get this, but it's not that amazing.
Touch of the Sea: It has it's place. It just wont' be that common of one.
True Strike:
Urban Grace:
Vocal Alteration:
Youthful Appearance: Only slightly better than Haunted Fey Aspect. Only slightly

2nd Level Extracts

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Ablative Barrier: When your nonlethal damage = your current health, you fall unconcious, so it's just not that great as a defense.
Acute Senses: Only not blue because I don't like things that only increase skill points.
Aid: I've mellowed on Aid. Temporary HP is nice, but if you have a bard, the morale bonus is meaningless
Alchemical Allocation:Find a potion you like, and you can keep it forever.
Alter Self:
Ancestral Regression: What is this, I don't even.
Animal Aspect: Like P. Panacea. It has many ways for you to use it.
Ant Haul, Communal: Communal spells don't work on your friends. Skip all of them.
Barkskin:
Bear's Endurance:
Bestow Weapon Proficiency:
Blistering Invective: More flavorful than effective.
Blood Blaze: I'm sure there is some random use for this, but it's not worth a spell
Blood Transcription: Creepy, and rarely useful.
Blur:
Bull's Strength:
Bullet Shield: Only useful if there are guns in your game and you think you'll be fighting people with guns.
Cat's Grace: Every Alchemist will probably want an increase in dex for some reason.
Certain Grip:
Cure Moderate Wounds:
Darkvision: Darkvision can be useful.
Defensive Shock: It's halfway decent damage, but once you cast it on yourself your allies can't buff you with touch spells anymore. No.
Delay Disease:
Delay Poison:
Detect Thoughts: Other classes are better at divination, but at this level it's still not a bad investment.
Eagle's Splendor: Not useful for you, but useful for friends.
Elemental Touch:
False Life:
Fire Breath:
Fox's Cunning:
Ghostly Disguise:
Invisibility:
Kinetic Reverberation: "Stop hitting yourself" Fun.
Levitate:
Minor Dream:
Owl's Wisdom:
Perceive Cues: Just use Acute Senses.
Poison:
Protection from Arrows:
Resist Energy:
Restoration, Lesser:
See Invisibility:
Shadow Bomb Admixture: Don't give enemies concealment, until you have a way to ignore it.
Sickening Strikes: If you're in melee, it's not that bad.
Skinsend: It's creepy but pretty interesting
Spider Climb:
Squeeze: Reduce person was 1 level ago. It's more useful.
Touch Injection: Be creative and find a use for that
Transmute Potion to Poison:
Undetectable Alignment: It has it's place, especially if you're evil, but it's a small place.
Vomit Swarm: You're lying if you say you like fighting swarms, you're lying if you wouldn't wish they were messing with the enemy caster instead of you.

3rd Level Extracts

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Absorb Toxicity: For when you're walking the sewers. And weird.
Absorbing Touch: It's a glove of storing. Better for rogue types or maybe bombers. Be creative.
Age Resistance, Lesser: There's a way to take advantage of this, I'm sure. It just probably won't come into play unless the game is starting at higher levels, or your playing something like an orc who can roll into being middle aged at the start of a game.
Amplify Elixir: Be creative
Animal Aspect, Greater: As before
Arcane Sight: Alchemists don't get detect magic, and although it's a nice ability to have, others will probably do it better.
Battle Trance: Bonuses against fear and a small amount of temp HP, with a penalty to Int? No.
Beast Shape I: Polymorph still solves problems.
Bloodhound: Scent can be handy
Blood Scent:
Burrow: Burrowing can be useful, but Earthglide will be far better than this
Burst of Speed: Only somewhat useful if you're a character that would normally rely on tumble to get through threatened squares.
Countless Eyes: It's alright if you think you'll be fighting a bunch of rogues.
Cure Serious Wounds:
Darkvision, Communal: Communal spells still don't work on your friends
Delay Poison, Communal:
Displacement:
Draconic Reservoir: It's interesting, but normally if something is hitting you with fire it will be immune to the fire you hit it back with.
ElementalAura: Only interesting if you'll be wading into melee.
Endure Elements, Communal:
Eruptive Pustules:
Fire Trail: Flavorful/funny to imagine but ineffective
Fly:
Gaseous Form: Not that useful for someone who can't use any spells when in gaseous form
Haste: It's haste, but it's only for you
Heroism: A +2 to everything is normally nice
Lightning Lash Bomb Admixture: If enemies move they save or take damage. It would be higher if the damage wasn't just 1d6. Still not a bad pick for a bomber
Marionette Possession: Magic Jar, but only on willing subjects. There is a save, but it doesn't actually say how it works.
Monstrous Physique I: Polymorph still solves problems
Nondetection:
Paragon Surge: Hi Paragon Surge
Prehensile Pilfer:
Protection From Energy:
Protection from Arrows, Communal:
Rage:
Remove Blindness/Deafness: Clerics have had Remove X for two level now. Wizards just got it. Let them do it.
Remove Curse:
Remove Disease:
Resinous Skin: I don't see a use for this, even if you like to enter melee. I
Resist Energy, Communal:
Seek Thoughts:
Spider Climb, Communal:
Thorn Body: Useful if you'll be entering melee a bunch. Less helpful otherwise
Tongues: By the time you got this everyone else already has it and had it for a while. Get it from the wizard you really need it.
Undead Anatomy I: Polymorph still solves problems.
Vomit Twin: If the duration was min/level and not round/level it would be much more useful. Still being able to change places with it as teleport is sweet.
Water Breathing:

4th Level Extracts:

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Absorbing Inhalation: For when the guy casts stinking cloud or cloudkill at you. And that's it.
Age Resistance:
Air Walk: This would be great, but...
Air Walk, Communal: Communal spells don't work on your friends.
Arcane Eye: Wizards have been doing this for 3 levels now. Forget it.
Beast Shape II: Polymorph is still useful
Cure Critical Wounds:
Darkvision, Greater: I would rather have 40 ft. blindsight.
Death Ward: Enervation and death effects aren't what they were in previous editions, and the cleric has been doing this for a while, now.
Detonate: If you want a damage spell. Get this or dragon's breath.
Discern Lies: The Bard is going to beat the saving throw.
Dragon's Breath: If you want a damage spell, get this OR detonate.
Earth Glide: It has it's place
Echolocation:.
Elemental Body I: It's still useful
False Life, Greater: At this level 2d10+X is less helpful, but it's still not the worst thing to have
Fire Shield:
Fluid Form: You had me at increasing Reach 10 ft.
Freedom of Movement: No matter what level. The ability to just say no to a grappler is always nice.
Healing Warmth: Turning ignored damage into healing isn't that terrible.
Invisibility, Greater:
Miasmatic Form: Still can't cast in gaseous form.
Monstrous Physique II: It's still useful.
Mutagenic Touch: This could be amazing (No save? No SR? Not mind effecting?). But it's only a -4 penalty to any mental stat, and you lose the Mutagen effect on yourself.
Neutralize Poison:
Restoration: I prefer this to Death Ward.
Scorching Ash Form: Still can't cast in gaseous form.
Spell Immunity: It's only useful if you know an enemy's (in that hands of the GM) favorite tactic.
Stoneskin: Expensive, but a good buff.
Tongues, Communal:
Touch of Slime: Green slime is mean, but not with your mediocre saves.
Universal Formula: Forgot to ready X extract against the enemy? Now you didn't. This is one of the big reasons to try and fill out your formulae book as much as possible. This extract gives you access to any of them at a moment's notice.
Vermin Shape I: It's still useful.
Viper Bomb Admixture: Might be nice if you can find a really nasty venom to put on your enemy.
Vitriolic Mist: I'm rating this the same as fire shield but in reality it's worse.

Feel free to disagree and criticize, it wouldn't be the first time. I found myself waffling on some of these ratings while I wrote them.

[Corinath]

I'm completely lost here.

Where are you all getting this information? All I see for alchemical items are things like Instant Rope from the A&EG. Is there a grand compilation of Alchemical items with the book reference listed somewhere?

[Khosan]

I'm completely lost here.

Where are you all getting this information? All I see for alchemical items are things like Instant Rope from the A&EG. Is there a grand compilation of Alchemical items with the book reference listed somewhere?

Indeed. Right here.

EDIT: Or, if you're confused about the Extract list, that's from here.

[The Random NPC]

I'm not sure if this matters but Bomber's Eye only increases the range of thrown weapons by 10ft, while Longshot increases the range increment. Would that mean a Longshot thrown weapon can be thrown up to 150ft while a Bomber's Eye thrown weapon can be thrown 60ft?

[Squirrel_Dude]

For bombers the bomber's eye matters more as they both increase the distance of the weapon by 10 ft., but bomber's eye also provides an additional +1 bonus. Longshot is slightly nicer because it lasts minutes per level and not rounds per level.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'm going to need to do the extracts, I guess... A lot of the cyan ones are worth green at best, and then on the other hand the absolute best extract on the entire list, Alchemical Allocation, is rated only green... I just completely disagree with a great deal of it.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I don't know why Alchemical Allocation doesn't impress me, like I know it should. My thought process went kind of like this:

"Oh man, never expending potions, that could be amazing. Now you wouldn't be spending all that money on making the same potion you like over and over."

"But potions kind of suck."


In reality, I think for some reason I was stuck on them being healing potions, and not more useful ones. 1 invisibility potion lasting forever, sweet.


I'll claim that it was late as the reason that you disagree with them. Even though it was today when I looked through levels 2 to 4. Whatever. Running through the list again, I can see where and why you would disagree with the ratings. I might just be overrating some things because I'm just not wowed by the list like I should be.

But I'm also the guy who has yet to use a polymorph (beast shape, form of the dragon, etc.) in Pathfinder (playing a wizard in two straight games) for some reason.

[grarrrg]

Infuse Mutagen - Not really seeing a purpose to this, possibly red.

The main purpose is to have more than one Mutagen available if/when needed.

Mutagens take an hour to prepare, and you can only have one prepared at a time.
Depending on the adventuring day, you may not have time to prepare a second one. So you may be limited to one "hulk-out" per day.

With Infuse Mutagen you can have a couple 'spares' to carry around, just in case.

I still agree that it is a rather poor choice overall, and the cost is fairly high for what you get out of it.

If you do like to "hulk-out" often, then just 1 level of Master Chymist gives you 2/day 'no mutagen needed' uses of Mutagen.


Speaking of Master Chymist...
Not many PrC's (other than the Master) really do much to help the Alchemist, mainly due to the "not being an actual caster" bit.
One suggestion would be the Student of War for 2 levels to gain INT-to-AC (instead of DEX).
Admittedly, this would not be for most Alchemist builds, due to the Pre-Reqs, and loss of Bombs/Extracts and such.
Among the pre-reqs are 3 feats (none are considered "great" feats, but they aren't all stinkers either), and the 2 Martial Weapon prof req.
But being able to (semi-)dump DEX does have it's advantages.

[avr]

I'm not sure if this matters but Bomber's Eye only increases the range of thrown weapons by 10ft, while Longshot increases the range increment. Would that mean a Longshot thrown weapon can be thrown up to 150ft while a Bomber's Eye thrown weapon can be thrown 60ft?

The only listed range is the range increment, I'm pretty sure Bomber's Eye affects this.

[avr]

Re Squirrel Dude's list:

Targeted bomb admixture is nice for bombers doing damage, but less useful if your bombs are primarily used for control and of course entirely useless to a vivisectionist. Not cyan.

Alchemists are good at making stuff. Crafters fortune makes them better. Orange perhaps?

Elemental touch - vivisectionists love this. If you're doing split ratings for vivisectionists, blue for them, if not, green?

Heroic fortune is a handy utility/buff missing from your list of 2nd level extracts. Green or blue IMO.

Haste affects the alchemist only. If possible, get someone else to cast it so it affects the whole party. Green.

Marionette possession only affects willing targets. Magic Jar it's not. Orange.

Nondetection is also missing from your list. Situational, orange or green.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Agree on targeted admixture. Thought it was better than it is the first time I read it. It's probably only green. It just doesn't have all that much punch behind it.

Heroic Fortune wasn't included because it's only there for the alternate ruleset of hero points.

Somehow I didn't see this line: "save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist." Allow me to go change every "communal" spell's rating to not worth it because it only effects the alchemist.

On marionette possession. Excuse me while I get confused with the wording of the spell. The one that says there is a will save (see text) and then doesn't mention the will save anywhere in the text

Could have sworn nondetection was on my list. Nope, just undetectable alignment. I'll fix that. I agree with the orange or green.

I don't like crafter's fortune because it's only a +5 bonus to any one craft skill. If you're already good at alchemy it's one of the last things you'll want to add to your formulae book.

Anyway, I'm going to edit that list a bit. Cause waffling is what I do.

[ArcanistSupreme]

A rough mock up of the first post of the guide:

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The Alchemist

Credits:

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This handbook is the result of the collaborative efforts of the following people (in order of appearance): Novawurmson, StreamOfTheSky, Squirrel_Dude, CockroachTeaParty, avr, The Random NPC, Arcanist Supreme, grarrrg, and Chained Birds.

Contents

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1 - Introduction

• Class Overview
• Color Coding
• Bomber vs. Melee
• Role Overview

2 - Race Selection

• Bomber Attribute Priorities
• Bomber Race Comparison
• Bomber Attribute Distribution
• Melee Attribute Priorities
• Melee Race Comparison
• Melee Attribute Distribution

3 - Class Features

• Class Feature Overview
• Bomber Discovery Overview
• Melee Discovery Overview

4 - Skills and Feats

• Skill Selection
• Bomber Feat Selection
• Melee Feat Selection

5 - Equipment

• Weapons and Armor
• Wondrous Items
• Wands and Consumables
• Potions and Poisons

6 - Extracts

• 1st Level Extracts
• 2nd Level Extracts
• 3rd Level Extracts
• 4th Level Extracts
• 5th Level Extracts
• 6th Level Extracts

7 - Archetypes

• Bomber Archetypes
• Melee Archetypes

8 - Multiclassing

• Bomber Multiclassing
• Bomber Prestige Classes
• Melee Multiclassing
• Melee Prestige Classes

9 - Sample Builds

Introduction

Class Overview
Insert literary-quality work of stunning brilliance here, eloquently describing what makes the alchemist unique and sets this class apart from every other class.

Color Coding
This guide uses the following rating system:
Turquoise: A must have. Simply one of the best available options.
Blue: Very good. Any of these will be strong picks.
Green: Good in the right circumstances, but often situational. Be careful when selecting these.
Orange: Niche choice. Will either come up very rarely or be unimpressive when it does come up.
Red: Bad. Just don't take these.


Bomber vs. Melee
The alchemist is an odd class; it seems to encourage wading into melee at the same time it encourages peppering enemies with bombs from afar. When it comes to building your alchemist, you have to decide if you want a Jekyll/Hyde melee brute or a mad bomber that debuffs and dissolves his foes. Otherwise, you will end up with a character that is capable of doing both, but fails to excel in the way a dedicated Bomber/Melee Alchemist would.

- The Bomber

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Pros:

• Lot's of debuff potential
• Decent damage
• Good utility
• More stuff I can't think of

Cons:

• Fragile
• Lacks the damage of a dedicated blaster
• AoE damage mediocre at best by mid-high levels
• More stuff I can't think of

- The Brute

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Pros:

• Potential to soak up damage
• Potential to dish out plenty of damage
• Self buffs offer utility that other fighters lack
• More stuff I can't think of

Cons:

• Poor will saves
• Lackluster bombs
• More stuff I can't think of

Role Overview
In the words of Chained Birds:

As an Alchemist, you are given several rolls to choose from,

Buffer: You can give yourself many of the common buffs used on the wizard's spell list + a few nifty Alchemist only buffs for your bombs. You also have a mutagen that is pretty much an awesome buff that does either 1 of the following: Make you Stronger but Dumber, Make you more Dexterous but crazy, or Make you Tougher but less Attractive.
If you take the right discoveries you can give these buffs, and even your mutagen to another guy. You can also change your mutagen to do pretty much the exact opposite of what it used to do, meaning it improves your mental stats by reducing your physical ones.

Fighter: If you focus on improving your mutagen, you can be a fairly competent warrior. Your improved strengths from the mutagen, coupled with your own buffs can make you quite the intimidating force, though your mental stats would probably drag behind. Think Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Monster.

Crowd Control: First few levels, a bomber Alchemist (Traditional Alchemist) will be the bane of all hordes as anything you throw that does splash damage does extra damage equal to your Int Mod! Your bombs are free alchemist's fire that get progressively stronger making your splash damage better. Splash starts to go unnoticed towards mid-to-late game, but your bombs now do more than just blow stuff up. They can freeze and stagger, poison and obscure, instant kill and maim, shock and awe, or whatever you are going for for your particular Bomber.

Crafter: They get brew potion as a bonus feat... So you can make cheap potions to share with your friends. You can also use your discoverys to make a caster lvl 1 potion into a caster lvl X potion when you drink it where X is your lvl; You can also extend the effect generated by the potion to double its usual duration. That's something more alchemists can do unless an archetype trades in the free feat for something a little more suited for your alchemist theme.

Utility: Not as good as a wizard by far, but really what is? Alchemists have a good extract list (spell list) and can get some good mileage out of it. Alchemist can make an extract on the spot (1 minute) if necessary as long as they have at least an unused "extract slot" (spell slot) available for the day, so that can be useful.

I'll have to ask Chained Birds if we can quote him, unless someone would like to rewrite that section.

Thoughts? Comments? Complete and utter disagreements?

[Squirrel_Dude]

And now to drive StreamoftheSky crazy by rating more extracts. I've also edited many of the ratings I already gave. Waffling. It's what I do.

Extracts

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1st level extracts

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Adjuring Step: It's not that it's bad, it's that illusion of calm is better in my opinion.
Ant Haul: You have a fighter/paladin/crazy third option with high strength.
Anticipate Peril: How often do you really have time to ready yourself to roll initiative? How often do you want to have a spell prepared for that situation?
Blend: It's hide in plain sight with a bonus to stealth for 10 minutes. A must for any Vivisectionist.
Bomber's Eye: The problem here is the duration. 1 round/level just isn't very helpful. Longshot will probably be more useful, even with the +1 attack bonus.
Comprehend Languages:
Crafter's Fortune: Unless you really need to make those crafting DCs, this probably won't be helping you too much in the long run.
Cure Light Wounds: If you get this, make sure to help someone make a wand of it.
Detect Secret Doors: Let someone else do this
Detect Undead:
Disguise Self:
Endure Elements: Pick it up before you head to the desert and not a moment sooner.
Enlarge Person: A buff for mutagen users looking to hit harder.
Expeditious Retreat: +30 ft. move speed for 1 min/level. Handy.
Identify: It serves it's purpose.
Illusion of Calm: Don't provoke AOOs when you throw your bombs, drink your extracts, or move out of a threatened square. Very handy.
Jump: Like that it improves over time. You may want it in your formulae book, but probably won't prepare it all that often.
Keen Senses: Only barely, and only if you don't have low-light or darkvision.
Linebreaker: Expeditious retreat lasts as long and provides a 10 ft. greater increase in speed, but doesn't have the +2 bonus to Bull Rush or Overrun. I'd rather have expeditious retreat.
Longshot: Lose the bonus to hit, but the minute duration means that you can throw it on at the start of combat and expect it to last.
Negate Aroma: This is probably generous
Polypurpose Panacea: There are a ton of things this spell can do, maybe one of them can be useful.
Recharge Innate Magic:
Reduce Person: A buff for bombers who would prefer to not be hit.
See Alignment:
Shield: Better for people staying out of melee, and better overall
Shock Shield: Better for people staying in melee with a bunch of enemies.
Stone Fist: 1d6 damage just isn't that great.
Targeted Bomb Admixture: Bombers get this, but it's not that amazing.
Touch of the Sea: It has it's place. It just wont' be that common of one.
True Strike: It's the auto-hit button. All alchemists will be trying to hit something at some point. You'll want this in your arsenal
Urban Grace: If you're not in an Urban setting, skip.
Vocal Alteration: Only helpful if you're doing some serious disguising.
Youthful Appearance: Only slightly better than Haunted Fey Aspect. Only slightly

2nd Level Extracts

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Ablative Barrier: When your nonlethal damage = your current health, you fall unconcious, so it's just not that great as a defense.
Acute Senses: Only not blue because I don't like things that only increase skill checks. Still, it's an increasing bonus to the best skill in the game.
Aid: Temp HP and a bonus to hit, and minute/level duration. Solid.
Alchemical Allocation:Find a potion you like, and you can keep it forever.
Alter Self: Use this to get yourself scent, darkvision, low-light vision, or increases to strength or dex for a little bit.
Ancestral Regression: What is this, I don't even.
Animal Aspect: Like P. Panacea. It has many ways for you to use it.
Ant Haul, Communal: Extracts only affect the person who is drinking them, so unless you have the Infusing Discovery you should completely avoid taking these.
Barkskin:
Bear's Endurance:
Bestow Weapon Proficiency: May be better than I'm giving it credit for.
Blistering Invective: More flavorful than effective.
Blood Blaze: I'm sure there is some random use for this, but it's not worth a spell
Blood Transcription: Creepy/[evil], and rarely all that useful. If you killed a wizard, just grab his spellbook.
Blur: Miss chance is nice
Bull's Strength: More useful if you're as strength based mutagener
Bullet Shield: Only useful if there are guns in your game and you think you'll be fighting people with guns.
Cat's Grace: Every Alchemist will probably want an increase in dex for some reason. It loses it's luster after a while, being an enhancement bonus.
Certain Grip:
Cure Moderate Wounds:
Darkvision: Get it through alter self.
Defensive Shock: It's halfway decent damage, but once you cast it on yourself your allies can't buff/heal you with touch spells anymore without taking damage themselves. No.
Delay Disease:
Delay Poison:
Detect Thoughts: Other classes are better at divination, but at this level it's still not a bad investment.
Eagle's Splendor: Most of the time, you dont' care about charisma.
Elemental Touch:
False Life: On average, this is only going to give you 1 more hitpoint than Aid, without the extra morale bonus. Go with Aid for your temp HP.
Fire Breath:
Fox's Cunning: Improves your int. This is probably a thing you like.
Ghostly Disguise:
Invisibility:
Kinetic Reverberation: It's fun, but it would be better if it wasn't a fort save.
Levitate:
Minor Dream:
Owl's Wisdom:
Perceive Cues: Just use Acute Senses.
Poison:
Protection from Arrows:
Resist Energy: It won't win combats, but it will help in many of them.
Restoration, Lesser:
See Invisibility:
Shadow Bomb Admixture: Don't give enemies concealment, until you have a way to ignore it.
Sickening Strikes: If you're into melee, it's not that bad.
Skinsend: It's interesting but risky. Leans towards orange.
Spider Climb:
Squeeze: Reduce person was 1 level ago. It's more useful.
Touch Injection: Be creative and find a use for that
Transmute Potion to Poison:
Undetectable Alignment: It has it's place, especially if you're evil, but it's a small place.
Vomit Swarm: You're lying if you say you like fighting swarms, you're lying if you wouldn't wish they were messing with the enemy caster instead of you.

3rd Level Extracts

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Absorb Toxicity: For when you're walking the sewers. And weird.
Absorbing Touch: It's a glove of storing. Better for rogue types or maybe bombers. Be creative.
Age Resistance,Lesser: If you're in a game where you're allowed to start at an advanced age, take this. It's a free stat boost. If not, or you don't think you'll get there, skip it.
Amplify Elixir: Be creative
Animal Aspect, Greater: As before
Arcane Sight: Alchemists don't get detect magic, and although it's a nice ability to have, others will probably do it better.
Battle Trance: Bonuses against fear and a small amount of temp HP, with a penalty to Int? No.
Beast Shape I: Polymorph still solves problems.
Bloodhound: Scent can be handy, but you can get it with Alter Self 1 level ago.
Blood Scent:
Burrow: Burrowing can be useful, but Earthglide will be far better than this
Burst of Speed: Only somewhat useful if you're a character that would normally rely on tumble to get through threatened squares.
Countless Eyes: It's alright if you think you'll be fighting a bunch of rogues.
Cure Serious Wounds:
Darkvision, Communal: Communal spells still don't work on your friends
Delay Poison, Communal:
Displacement:
Draconic Reservoir: It's interesting, but normally if something is hitting you with fire it will be immune to the fire you hit it back with.
ElementalAura: Only interesting if you'll be wading into melee.
Endure Elements, Communal:
Eruptive Pustules:
Fire Trail: Flavorful/funny to imagine but ineffective
Fly: Flight is very nice (practically necessary at high levels). There are way to get it other than this spell.
Gaseous Form: Not that useful for someone who can't use any spells when in gaseous form
Haste: It's haste, but it's only for you
Heroism: A +2 to everything is normally nice
Lightning Lash Bomb Admixture: If enemies move they save or take damage. It would be higher if the damage wasn't just 1d6. Still not a bad pick for a bomber
Marionette Possession: Magic Jar, but only on willing subjects. There is a save, but it doesn't actually say how it works.
Monstrous Physique I: Polymorph still solves problems
Nondetection:
Paragon Surge: Hi Paragon Surge
Prehensile Pilfer:
Protection From Energy:
Protection from Arrows, Communal:
Rage:
Remove Blindness/Deafness: Clerics have had Remove X for two level now. Wizards just got it. Let them do it.
Remove Curse: Curses suck, but someone else probably has this handled.
Remove Disease:
Resinous Skin: I don't see a use for this, even if you like to enter melee. I
Resist Energy, Communal:
Seek Thoughts:
Spider Climb, Communal:
Thorn Body: Useful if you'll be entering melee a bunch. Less helpful otherwise
Tongues: By the time you got this everyone else already has it and had it for a while. Get it from the wizard you really need it.
Undead Anatomy I: Polymorph still solves problems.
Vomit Twin: If the duration was min/level and not round/level it would be much more useful. Still being able to change places with it as teleport is sweet.
Water Breathing:

4th Level Extracts:

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Absorbing Inhalation: For when the guy casts stinking cloud or cloudkill at you. And that's it.
Age Resistance: As the previous version. If you can take advantage of it, do. If you can't, skip it.
Air Walk: You should get this OR the communal version.
Air Walk, Communal: The only communal spell on your list that is the same level as the original. Get this on OR the original. Not both.
Arcane Eye: Wizards have been doing this for 3 levels now. Forget it.
Beast Shape II: Polymorph is still useful
Cure Critical Wounds:
Darkvision, Greater: I would rather have 40 ft. blindsight.
Death Ward: Enervation and death effects aren't what they were in previous editions, and the cleric has been doing this for a while, now.
Detonate: If you want a damage spell, get this OR dragon's breath.
Discern Lies: The Bard is going to beat the saving throw.
Dragon's Breath: If you want a damage spell, get this OR detonate.
Earth Glide: It has it's place
Echolocation:.
Elemental Body I: It's still useful
False Life, Greater: At this level 2d10+X is less helpful, but it's still not the worst thing to have
Fire Shield:
Fluid Form: You had me at increasing Reach 10 ft.
Freedom of Movement: No matter what level. The ability to just say no to a grappler is always nice.
Healing Warmth: Turning ignored damage into healing isn't that terrible.
Invisibility, Greater:
Miasmatic Form: Still can't cast in gaseous form.
Monstrous Physique II: It's still useful, but the other ones are better.
Mutagenic Touch: This could be amazing (No save? No SR? Not mind effecting?). But it's only a -4 penalty to any mental stat, and you lose the Mutagen effect on yourself.
Neutralize Poison:
Restoration: I prefer this to Death Ward.
Scorching Ash Form: Still can't cast in gaseous form.
Spell Immunity: It's only useful if you know an enemy's (in that hands of the GM) favorite tactic.
Stoneskin: Expensive, but a good buff.
Tongues, Communal:
Touch of Slime: Green slime is mean, but not with your mediocre save DCs.
Universal Formula: Forgot to ready X extract against the enemy? Now you didn't. This extract gives you access to any of them at a moment's notice.
Vermin Shape I: It's still useful.
Viper Bomb Admixture: Might be nice if you can find a really nasty venom to put on your enemy.
Vitriolic Mist: I'm rating this the same as fire shield but in reality it's worse.

5th level extracts

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Age Resistance, Greater:Free boost to stats, or not very helpful. As before
Beast Shape III: Polymorph spell mostly handles this for you now.
Contact Other Plane:
Delayed Consumption: It's contingency, but you're only allowed to do it with one extract at a time, and you can choose when it happens.
Dream:
Dust Form: Handy if you can use extracts while in it (you can use magic items, after all). Not that great otherwise.
Elemental Body II: Polymorph spell mostly handles this for you now.
Elude Time: It's kind of like Sanctuary except no one can do anything to you, and you can't do anything to them.
Half-blood Extraction: Wut.
Languid Bomb Admixture: Fatigue is a pretty good status to inflict on enemies. Edges towards blue.
Magic Jar: Shows up a little late, but it's still useful.
Monstrous Physique III: Polymorph will probably do the trick.
Nightmare:
Overland Flight: Still nice, even if it is showing up a bit late.
Planar Adaptation:
Plant Shape I: Polymorph doesn't do Plants, Undead, or Vermin.
Polymorph: It's Polymorph.
Resurgent Transformation: The benefits are nice, but you take 1d4 points of Int. and Wis. damage when it activates. Be very careful or avoid altogether.
Sending:
Spell Resistance:
Stoneskin, Communal:
Undead Anatomy II: Polymorph doesn't do Undead, Vermin, or Plants.
Vermin Shape II: Polymorph doesn't do Vermin, Plants or Undead.

6th level extracts

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Analyze Dweomer:
Beast Shape IV: Polymorph is more versatile for problem solving, but your higher level ones will pack more of a punch.
Caging Bomb Admixture: Awesome
Elemental Body III: Now with immunity to critical hits and sneak attack.
Eyebite: Close to red
Form of the Dragon I: Nice, but only medium size
Giant Form I:
Heal:
Mislead:
Monstrous Physique IV: Just not as strong as the other polymorph options.
Plant Shape II: Not that many benefits to be gained, and you can only go to large size.
Shadow Walk: Another spell showing up a bit late for you.
Statue:
Transformation: After you transform you can't cast spells.
True Seeing: It's nice, but it's showing up really late for you.
Twin Form:
Undead Anatomy III:
Walk through Space: There are many other ways to accomplish this.
Wind Walk: Someone else probably has a way to teleport you where you need to go at this point.

Also, let's finish up the ARG races, but looking at the uncommon races. Before we go to much further, I'll add that in many cases I find that the Uncommon races are either poorly balanced options (Samsaran) have some really weird fluff baggage (Changeling), or a little of both (Strix).

For the Bomber
Uncommon Races

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Changeling: Bonus to Dex, but a Penalty to con, with no unique favored class options.
Duergar: Slightly better than the dwarf, with their unique SLAs.
Gillmen: Don't help any of your key stats, and dump Wisdom when you already have a bad Will save.
Grippli: Bonus to dex, and penalty to strength. Small size and they still have normal speed. If only there was a bonus to Int, too.
Kitsune: Similar to Grippli in that they dump your least important stat, but don't help Int.
Merfolk: Really only for aquatic campaigns, and no bonus to Int.
Nagaji: Ugh. No.
Samsarans: If your DM rules that you can take advantage of mystic past life then it's blue. Green if you can't. It still has a bonus to Int, after all.
Strix: Fly speed and a bonus to dex, but with the fluff baggage of hating all humans.
Sulis: As Nagaji.
Svirfneblins: You could do worse
Vanara: No bonus to Int, but good favored class options, and alterante racial traits.
Vishkanyas:
Wayangs: Bonus to Int and Dex? Sold.

For the Mutagen User
Uncommon Races

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Changeling: Penalty to con really hurts.
Duergar: Slightly better than the dwarf, with their unique SLAs.
Gillmen: Bonus to con more helpful for you than a bomb throwing friend
Grippli: Not a bad set of traits for a dex based fighter.
Kitsune: Again, as Grippli. Slightly better with larger size.
Merfolk: That land speed is just awful, toping out at 15 ft.
Nagaji: There's a bonus to strength, and everything else is pretty lame.
Samsarans: Green with mystic past life, orange without it. Penalty to con means more to you.
Strix: Green if dex based. Orange if strength based. Flight is definitely nice, though.
Sulis: As Nagaji
Svirfneblins: Closer to orange than to blue for a mutagen user.
Vanaras: As Grippli.
Vishkanyas:
Wayangs: Small size hurts a bit, but not too much.

[Novawurmson]

@ArcanistSupreme - I love the layout! It's so much better than what I would have done XD (See: My barbarian guide).

@Squirrel_Dude - I'll throw my opinions on the extracts up soon. The only disagreement I'm definitely seeing is with Heal; it's probably the best (and one of the few good) healing spell in the game.

I have some points to make about everything, but work calls soon, and I need to get ready.

[Corlindale]

I think Anticipate Peril might need a slightly higher rating - our alchemist uses it all the time and it really makes a noticeable difference. And it's one of very few ways to buff an extremely important stat.
Often you'll be able to know in advance when an encounter might be coming (ex. you're walking around in a dungeon).

Fox Cunning and Cat's Grace as sky blue is also a bit debateable. Most bombers are going to definetely get a +2 Int and probably a +2 dex item, cutting the bonus in half early on. I'd say alchemical allocation is better than either, since it can duplicate them and any other effect you have a potion of, giving better versatility. You aren't going to be using them in combat anyway, so might as well go with AA.

Ratings of some third level extract should perhaps also take the existence of AA into account. There's little reason to use a third level slot to prepare Heroism when you can just use AA one slot lower. Once again, you'll almost never be using Heroism mid-combat anyway. A similar argument could be made with other 3rd level extracts that also exist as potions (Fly may sometimes be an exception, since you might need to use it mid-combat and then AA is impractical).

[KutuluKultist]

Concerning extracts, ant-haul and cure light wounds should be higher rated.

Cure light wounds: It's not great, but because it costs you next to nothing to learn but will be useful whenever you can rest and heal by converting a renewable resource into healing. That seems useful enough to me to warrant a green rating.

Ant-haul helps with the strength dump. Again, it cost next to nothing to learn and by the time it lasts all day, spending a first level slot on it is hardly cutting into your abilities. Alchemicals are heavy, too. Again, I would rate it green. It's commonly useful.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ratings of the uncommon races looks solid. The only thing I'd change is Strix. It is Blue for bombers, but for melee, I think it's green at best (orange if not a dex-based build).

Flying is always useful for a ranged person to avoid harm entirely; for melee it's more of a situational thing when you need it to reach an enemy and you don't need/desire it all the time, it's just nice to have.

Further, a melee alchemist is much more likely to be able to afford Beastmorph archetype and/or the Wings discovery, while as the bomber has more directly useful archetypes that conflict and is much more heavily pressed for discovery slots.

When I feel like spending the time, I'll try and go over extracts...

[Squirrel_Dude]

A rough mock up of the first post of the guide:

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The Alchemist

Credits:

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This handbook is the result of the collaborative efforts of the following people (in order of appearance): Novawurmson, StreamOfTheSky, Squirrel_Dude, CockroachTeaParty, avr, The Random NPC, Arcanist Supreme, grarrrg, and Chained Birds.

Contents

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1 - Introduction

• Class Overview
• Color Coding
• Bomber vs. Melee
• Role Overview

2 - Race Selection

• Bomber Attribute Priorities
• Bomber Race Comparison
• Bomber Attribute Distribution
• Melee Attribute Priorities
• Melee Race Comparison
• Melee Attribute Distribution

3 - Class Features

• Class Feature Overview
• Bomber Discovery Overview
• Melee Discovery Overview

4 - Skills and Feats

• Skill Selection
• Bomber Feat Selection
• Melee Feat Selection

5 - Equipment

• Weapons and Armor
• Wondrous Items
• Wands and Consumables
• Potions and Poisons

6 - Extracts

• 1st Level Extracts
• 2nd Level Extracts
• 3rd Level Extracts
• 4th Level Extracts
• 5th Level Extracts
• 6th Level Extracts

7 - Archetypes

• Bomber Archetypes
• Melee Archetypes

8 - Multiclassing

• Bomber Multiclassing
• Bomber Prestige Classes
• Melee Multiclassing
• Melee Prestige Classes

9 - Sample Builds

Introduction

Class Overview
Insert literary-quality work of stunning brilliance here, eloquently describing what makes the alchemist unique and sets this class apart from every other class.

Color Coding
This guide uses the following rating system:
Turquoise: A must have. Simply one of the best available options.
Blue: Very good. Any of these will be strong picks.
Green: Good in the right circumstances, but often situational. Be careful when selecting these.
Orange: Niche choice. Will either come up very rarely or be unimpressive when it does come up.
Red: Bad. Just don't take these.


Bomber vs. Melee
The alchemist is an odd class; it seems to encourage wading into melee at the same time it encourages peppering enemies with bombs from afar. When it comes to building your alchemist, you have to decide if you want a Jekyll/Hyde melee brute or a mad bomber that debuffs and dissolves his foes. Otherwise, you will end up with a character that is capable of doing both, but fails to excel in the way a dedicated Bomber/Melee Alchemist would.

- The Bomber

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Pros:

• Lot's of debuff potential
• Decent damage
• Good utility
• More stuff I can't think of

Cons:

• Fragile
• Lacks the damage of a dedicated blaster
• AoE damage mediocre at best by mid-high levels
• More stuff I can't think of

- The Brute

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Pros:

• Potential to soak up damage
• Potential to dish out plenty of damage
• Self buffs offer utility that other fighters lack
• More stuff I can't think of

Cons:

• Poor will saves
• Lackluster bombs
• More stuff I can't think of

Role Overview
In the words of Chained Birds:

I'll have to ask Chained Birds if we can quote him, unless someone would like to rewrite that section.

Thoughts? Comments? Complete and utter disagreements?

The picture for the bomber might be a bit large. Here's my recommendation for the mutagen user, at least in terms the character that I think could represent it.

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As for layout, I would move extracts and archetypes up before the equipment list. From there I would move archetypes up above feats, but below skills. I would suggest the order become this:

1 - Introduction
2 - Race Selection
3 - Class Features
4 - Skills
5 - Archetypes
6 - Feats
7 - Extracts
8 - Equipment
9 - Multiclassing
10 - Sample Builds

[ArcanistSupreme]

The picture for the bomber might be a bit large. Here's my recommendation for the mutagen user, at least in terms the character that I think could represent it.

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As for layout, I would move extracts and archetypes up before the equipment list. From there I would move archetypes up above feats, but below skills. I would suggest the order become this:

1 - Introduction
2 - Race Selection
3 - Class Features
4 - Skills
5 - Archetypes
6 - Feats
7 - Extracts
8 - Equipment
9 - Multiclassing
10 - Sample Builds

I think that it makes sense to move equipment lower, but it doesn't make sense in my mind to split skills and feats when skills is essentially a subsection. Archetypes and multiclassing also dovetail together so nicely that I'll probably roll that into one section (especially since multiclassing seems to be Master Chymist or don't). My proposed new order is as follows:

1 - Introduction
2 - Race Selection
3 - Class Features
4 - Skills and Feats
5 - Archetypes and Multiclassing
6 - Extracts
7 - Equipment
8 - Sample Builds

As for the images, I'm sure with a little fiddling I can resize them to not take up the entire screen. And speaking of images, let's see 'em! No guide is complete without awesome art!

WARNING: Some of these are absurdly big and I'm too tired to fix them right now.

Bomber images:

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Mutagen images:

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General images:

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[Crustypeanut]

Bump, because the Alchemist is an awesome class!

Also I'd like to throw in my 2 cents when it comes to Poison-based Vivisectionist Alchemists: Daggermark Poisoner PrC. 6 levels of that allows you to sacrifice your sneak attack to increase the DC of your poison for each dice lost. Now.. this obviously means that your damage goes down horribly. But just imagine hitting someone with an extremely nasty Con poison that you use Concentrated, use Malignant Poison on, and sacrificed, say, 5 dice of sneak attack? Not to mention has 3-4 uses due to Sticky Poison?

Now, your Poison's DC is up by +11 and is dealing Con damage. Even Greenblood Oil would have a DC 24 Fort save. Use something more expensive like Deathblade for a DC 31 Fort save, gaining a +2 DC per dose you pump into them. Even Dragon Bile, which does Strength Damage, could be potentially useful with its DC 37 Fort Save. With a +22 Fort Save, an Ancient Red Dragon would need to roll a 15+ on the first dose of that Dragon Bile. You could turn an Ancient Red Dragon into a 0-strength weakling with that poison.

Granted, if you're sacrificing sneak attacks to increase the DC of your poison.. you're only going to prolong combat (Unless you're using Con-based poisons, then it is more likely worth the pay off). Con-based poisons also are useless against Undead, even if you CAN poison them thanks to the discovery that allows you to do so.

I'd say that poisons, when used properly, are best for campaigns where straight up combat is something you wish to AVOID. That, or campaigns were you want to take prisoners alive. Sacrifice Sneak Attack damage to from your Sap or other non-lethal weapon to poison someone with a higher-DC Drow Poison, for example. One hit and they're out cold. Or perhaps poison someone's drink to kill or render them unconcious, avoiding attention.

Overall though.. poisons don't seem to be 'as' good as normal alchemists who just blow things up. But they have their niche.. a more subtle niche. One that I find fascinating.

[StreamOfTheSky]

*Looks at Daggermark Poisoner*

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My first thought is, again, HOLY CRAP I HATE MEDIUM BAB PRESTIGE CLASSES MEANT FOR MEDIUM BAB CLASSES THAT YOU ENTER AT LEVEL 6. "Did you enjoy not advancing your BAB last level? Here, have another! Because ending up for a while with BAB comparable to a wizard isn't much of an issue, it was so much more important to nerf PrC save progressions to prevent 'abuse', y'know?"

/short rant

Entry Requirements: Those skill ranks are actually pretty expensive, considering all but Alchemy are horrible skills. If you're entering as a Viv., which...you should be if you plan to sack SA dice..., then the Heal ranks are literally worthless (because you use know nature for that). The 1000 gp b**** tax isn't that harsh, but is kind of a slap in the face when a one of a poisoner's biggest problems is money. Entering right at 6 is extra painful because it means forsaking all the important Alchemist level 6 required poison discoveries, maybe it's better to enter at 7.

Class features...

No extract progression at all, same HD, BAB, and skill points, worse saves... Not to mention not advancing other level-based stuff like for discovery qualification. The extract and level progression loss alone basically guarantee this PrC will nerf you, no matter how good its class features are. Anyway...

Master Poisoner: The first half of this is strictly inferior to the Alchemy class feature you're no longer advancing. The latter half is just the Poison Conversion discovery you could've gotten from Alchemist already.

Poison Resistance: Thanks to the level stacking (why don't they do this more?), this is solidly...about identical to what Alchemist would grant anyway. Still an improvement from Master Poisoner... If Alchemist levels stack even if you swapped poison resist/immunity for an archetype, this is pretty sweet.

Quick Poisoning: Largely redundant w/ Alchemist; might be decent if you lost said features to an archetype.

Toxic Apothecary: You get a lame cantrip. I don't know why Alchemists don't get cantrips... Still, this is pretty weaksauce.

Toxic Trick: Nothing too amazing here, but some of it looks interesting. Combine Poison is probably the best one, just for nova potential.

Toxic Manufactory: Cuts poison creation time drastically down, if you create in bulk. Pretty handy in games w/o much downtime.

Trapster: Garbage; not much more to say.

Sneak Attack: Super slow progression (+1d6 per 5 levels)... better than nothing.

Treacherous Toxin: What Crusty was talking about. Sack SA dice for save DC. Totally worth it against anyone with a fortification % or some ability to reduce precision damage. Might be more viable with Sap Master.
EDIT: I guess it's debatable if you get the DC bonus should they shrug off the SA damage you're no longer inflicting.

Swift Poisoning: Bleh. Comes MUCH later than the Alchemist class feature. Will inevitably end up being redundant unless you never hit Alchemist 6.

Instantaneous Toxicology: Holy crap is this laughably inferior to Instant Alchemy of the Alchemist! To be fair, you get it as early as ECL 13 instead of 18, but still... Also to be fair, Crusty advised bailing out 2 levels before now.

Levels 9 and 10: Dude, where's my capstone? Wow... Alchemist levels already stack, so you already have poison immunity... You by default would pick up the extra +1d6 SA just by spending those two levels in Viv. Alchemist. All that's left from these last 2 levels is a worthless additional +1 to trapster and your 5th toxic trick. There is no sane reason to ever go to the end of this PrC. None.

In conclusion: Entry sucks; definite nerf due to progression losses. Possibly worth it through 5th level for Treacherous Toxin, that's basically *the* reason to take this class. Level 6 isn't awful but s hard to justify taking. Level 7+ is just appallingly bad.

[Corinath]

I now understand why I was lost.

I'm still relatively new to the forms, and recently figured out that PF meant Pathfinder. LoL.

That being said, is there an equivalency for regular 3.5 via craft alchemy or the like? Or is this strictly a PF thing?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Alchemist is a new class designed by Paizo strictly for Pathfinder, however with some tweaking (mostly the skill list and the spell infusion list) it should be able to be played in a 3.5 game.

[Crustypeanut]

I do agree with those points - its not an amazing PrC.. but I think it is the one of the best ways to make Poisons doable.

[grarrrg]

Multi-classing
Arcane Bomber Wizard: You gain a "similar" Bomb ability, and Alchemist levels stack to determine Bomb damage, but you specifically can NOT apply Discoveries to the Arcane-Bombs. (As an added bonus it "stacks with" the Alchemist Bomb ability but "you do not gain" the Alchemist Bomb ability. So by RAW it stacks with nothing?).


There should potentially be 3 sections for PrC's, a 'Bomber/Extract' one, a 'Mutagen Beatdown' one, and an 'if your DM lets Alchemists count as actual casters' list.

Master Chymist Awesome if going for Mutagen Beatdown. Less so otherwise. Still stacks for Bomb damage, but Discoveries are limited to those on the Chymist list (which does not include Bomb enhancers).
Bonus points for being the _only_ PrC to advance Extracts.

Daggermark Poisoner (color is up for debate, see previous discussion)

Student of War (potentially Green) 2 levels lets you use INT for AC instead of DEX, can help reduce MAD, but doesn't advance any Alchemist features.

[avr]

On PrCs, both Assassin and Sleepless Detective get a fair bit of use out of high intelligence and utility spells/formulas such as the alchemist provides, even if they don't advance them. Sherlock Holmes is perfect as an alchemist (mindchemist) / sleepless detective. Not exactly high-op choices though. I might rate the Assassin as green for alchemists (especially if the alchemist has the vivisectionist archetype) and the Sleepless Detective as orange.